Racism in high profile sports/advantage of sports over other forms of media.

Yolanka · Oct 13th, 2008, 10:40 PM

First, the advantage of sports over other media entertainments. Although professional sports is plagued with politics; theoretically anyone from any race or of any age can win. If a 60 year old can knock out the heavy weight boxing champ, it will take a lot of politics to prevent him from displaying his talent. If a Japanese heavyweight fighter comes on the scene who can dismantle any fighter, he can probably make enough noise to allow the powers that be to prove his point. However, in the movies, music, politics, newscast arena, etc., if someone is deemed too old, or of the wrong race, they don't have much say. But who could deny the talent of Jackie Robinson to the point of preventing him playing in the Major Leagues? Who could deny Joe Louis' knock-out power?

There's less age division among sports fans. Where TV shows, movies, music formats and radio stations target age groups; football, baseball, boxing, etc. is for the most part the same as they have always been. Any differences are basically trivial. An older fan may not take to the current pop-culture attached to modern sports (background stadium music, Super Bowl half-time shows, etc.); but the competition on the playing field has the same captivation that the younger person has.

It is encouraging to see Asian baseball and basketball players (albeit from overseas) utilize their talents here in the U.S. at a high profile level. I don't dismiss any possibilities of racism involved here either, but just not aware of them. I do however suspect a subtle form of racism in another sport becoming more and more popular in the U.S. Possibly a sport where it could be reasoned that it shouldn't exist; MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). One of the elements that differs MMA (in the U.S.) from Boxing is the large ratio of White fighters vs. non-White. The UFC, WEC, etc. is dominated by White fighters, so there never was an issue of a "great White hope". Because of the large quantity of White fighters, there's many White champions.

The animosity towards Asian men that permeates many avenues of Western society is by no means lacking in the (American) MMA. Kudos to someone like Yushin Okami (UFC fighter); but he will have it tough. While there hasn't been any verbal signs of racism; the MMA media has helped to create it's heroes. Mainly White fighters with a few Black and Hispanic fighters thrown in. In my opinion, the (mis)matching of Brock Lesnar in his first match with a Japanese fighter was well thought out.

When ESPN/ESPN2 show reruns and highlights of K-1 and Pride, both originating out of Japan; they seem very careful to only show fights of non-Asian fighters, and fights where Asians lose. When they broadcasted their Pride program, they dedicated their shows to showing 'best of' type fights of particular fighters. They are not always American; but never that I have seen; Asian.

I remember "The Best Damn Sports Show" aired on FoxSports aired a segment called something like "The Biggest Beat Downs". This was a segment where they would show highlights of mostly Boxing and MMA knockouts. They did show impressive knock-out scenes from a Japanese fighter from Pride. However, one of the 3 hosts of the show had to make a disparaging comment referring mainly to physical size (his vs. the fighter's), and how he could take him on.

Here's where I think politics interferes with undeniable talent. White society hates the idea of a heroic Asian MMA fighter. I believe there are very talented MMA fighters from Asia who can go toe to toe with any of the top UFC fighters. I think there is a limitation (and hesitation) on importing many of them. When I was in Japan watching K-1 fights; I saw some pretty incredible fighters. And K-1 includes different types of matches using different fighting styles.

Heyyu · Nov 13th, 2008, 02:14 AM

The issue of racism in sports has always intrigued me, because as you mentioned, sports is the one area where the playing field is leveled. It's perhaps why black athletes have come to dominate such high-profile sports like the NBA & NFL. And why players from Latino/Asian countries are now coming to dominate Major League Baseball (the most American of all sports).

I think you're seeing a "White Flight" so to speak from certain sports, especially basketball, track-and-field & certain football positions like Running Back & Wide Receiver which are all seen as black dominated. Thus white parents & their white kids don't think they stand a chance against these "big strong black athletes" so they go into other sports that don't attract a huge number of African-Americans like hockey, swimming, tennis, NASCAR racing, figure-skating, etc.

In fact, I honestly think this is why an athlete like Michael Phelps was hugely popular. Not only cause of his dominance at the 2008 Olympic Games (and swimming is one of the Whitest Sports around), but also cause he was sorta like the Great White Hope of the American people with his clean-cut image. I mean, the USA basketball team won gold, but many more people were rooting against them cause of the image of Black NBA players as too "ghetto" "thuggish" & "hip-hop." Ironically, I think NBA players might be more popular world-wide in countries like China than they are here in the USA.

But fighting is an interesting area cause certain fight sports like boxing does have a high number of black athletes, mainly cause boxing was the highest paying of all the sports. Martial art contests like MMA & UFC haven't come around till just recently. And yes, there are a lot of white fighters... but I'll be quite honest and say that it takes a certain crazy person to even be involved in MMA & UFC. And most of the white fighters don't come from the most well-educated of backgrounds. In fact, if they weren't fighting, they would be your typical dock worker or factory worker or something blue-collar & lower class (which is many of these fighter's background before they got into MMA & UFC).

nightshade · Nov 13th, 2008, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heyyu

The issue of racism in sports has always intrigued me, because as you mentioned, sports is the one area where the playing field is leveled. It's perhaps why black athletes have come to dominate such high-profile sports like the NBA & NFL. And why players from Latino/Asian countries are now coming to dominate Major League Baseball (the most American of all sports).

I think you're seeing a "White Flight" so to speak from certain sports, especially basketball, track-and-field & certain football positions like Running Back & Wide Receiver which are all seen as black dominated. Thus white parents & their white kids don't think they stand a chance against these "big strong black athletes" so they go into other sports that don't attract a huge number of African-Americans like hockey, swimming, tennis, NASCAR racing, figure-skating, etc.

Christ almighty. You've essentially said that the only reason why black athletes are succeeding is that they do not have white competition.

ZhuBaJie · Nov 13th, 2008, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heyyu

I think you're seeing a "White Flight" so to speak from certain sports, especially basketball, track-and-field & certain football positions like Running Back & Wide Receiver which are all seen as black dominated. Thus white parents & their white kids don't think they stand a chance against these "big strong black athletes" so they go into other sports that don't attract a huge number of African-Americans like hockey, swimming, tennis, NASCAR racing, figure-skating, etc.

i don't know why there are more black backs and receivers (and conversely, why there are more white quarterbacks), and i'm not going to "go there" and say that blacks run faster. but having played football in high school, i can tell you that this is clearly not the case.

xian · Nov 14th, 2008, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightshade

Christ almighty. You've essentially said that the only reason why black athletes are succeeding is that they do not have white competition.

Nope. That's nothing like what he said.

Makulita · Nov 14th, 2008, 02:42 AM

...

So why's it gotta be the white folk doing their tired ass white flight shit? The black kids are doin' shit like we all used to do inthe 90s: Be Like Mike.

FYI, Mike was black.

------

Snark aside, I don't like that whole "its because of the white folk fleeing from the scary minority" because it implies shit like we don't break barriers, we're let in after Mr. The Man's done with it.

Like Flo Jo, Michael Jordan... and if I fucking knew shit about sports I'd namedrop some more but its like saying those people weren't such a goddamn inspiration that the black kids didn't do shit to emulate them only that their coaches just needed to fill up the diversity quota on the team.

THX1138 · Nov 14th, 2008, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

i don't know why there are more black backs and receivers (and conversely, why there are more white quarterbacks), and i'm not going to "go there" and say that blacks run faster. but having played football in high school, i can tell you that this is clearly not the case.

The blogger Choptensils offers an interesting take on why certain racial groups seem to excel at sports or any other activity. He says it's about a phenomenon called "priming."

Priming essentially is the power of broader social belief and self-confidence and how they are critical factors for an individual's success in a given field. He gives the examples of Black kids doing well in sports (or Asians doing well in Math and science). The cause is not genetic but cultural expectations and confidence translating into superior individual performance.

Basically, the phenomenon of priming could theoretically be applied to any activity. For instance, Asian guys could, uh, be more successful with women if they created a general culture and social belief system that expects romantic/sexual success--and thus produces self-confident individuals who naturally excel in this important endeavor.

http://choptensils.blogspot.com/2008...ve-sports.html

BadArtist · Nov 14th, 2008, 11:22 PM

THX1138 - That's a very interesting theory and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to suggest that people are subscribing to popular stereotypes (whether consciously or not) so they start generating self-fulfilling prophecies. Personally, I don't believe that successes in certain fields are specific to certain cultural groups because that's what they encourage. Again I'm just guessing here but I highly doubt that most black families encourage their children to become atheletes. And Asian families (like pretty much every family) want their children to excel at all things, whether it's academics or sports or the arts.

I think it more has to do with institutionalized racism, and how it still restricts access to different racial groups according to popular stereotypes. Asians may seem to be more successful in the realms of math perhaps because it's more accessible to them while these same institutions reject blacks because of preconcieved racist notions. The same can be said of sports, with Asians and blacks reversing roles.

That's not to say minorities succeed only because the whites let them. It took incredible amount of preserverance and ability to break through into these institutions in the first place. I think it's just that blacks were the first minorities to gain a foothold in American sports and flourished, while Asians did the same in math and science, becoming pioneers in these fields. And as minorites continue to break into different fields, I believe people will stop subscribing to these notions of racial specialization, or whatever it should be called.

BadArtist · Nov 14th, 2008, 11:28 PM

Oh, and as for how this applies to dating, while there are certain racist hurdles specific to Asian men that they have to overcome, is the situation really that bad? Again this have to do with believing in stereotypes and creating self-fulfilling prophecies for yourself. There are real hurdles, and then there those that are imagined. I live in Southern California and everywhere I look I see Asian couples. My older cousins are happily married with children. And statistically, Asian men seems to enjoy steady relationships and marriage about as much as other groups.

ZhuBaJie · Nov 15th, 2008, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadArtist

Oh, and as for how this applies to dating, while there are certain racist hurdles specific to Asian men that they have to overcome, is the situation really that bad?

once again, a newbie re-opens the can of worms.

welcome to the 44s. LOL!

Oct 13th, 2008, 10:40 PM	#1
Yolanka Intermediate Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 101	Racism in high profile sports/advantage of sports over other forms of media. First, the advantage of sports over other media entertainments. Although professional sports is plagued with politics; theoretically anyone from any race or of any age can win. If a 60 year old can knock out the heavy weight boxing champ, it will take a lot of politics to prevent him from displaying his talent. If a Japanese heavyweight fighter comes on the scene who can dismantle any fighter, he can probably make enough noise to allow the powers that be to prove his point. However, in the movies, music, politics, newscast arena, etc., if someone is deemed too old, or of the wrong race, they don't have much say. But who could deny the talent of Jackie Robinson to the point of preventing him playing in the Major Leagues? Who could deny Joe Louis' knock-out power? There's less age division among sports fans. Where TV shows, movies, music formats and radio stations target age groups; football, baseball, boxing, etc. is for the most part the same as they have always been. Any differences are basically trivial. An older fan may not take to the current pop-culture attached to modern sports (background stadium music, Super Bowl half-time shows, etc.); but the competition on the playing field has the same captivation that the younger person has. It is encouraging to see Asian baseball and basketball players (albeit from overseas) utilize their talents here in the U.S. at a high profile level. I don't dismiss any possibilities of racism involved here either, but just not aware of them. I do however suspect a subtle form of racism in another sport becoming more and more popular in the U.S. Possibly a sport where it could be reasoned that it shouldn't exist; MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). One of the elements that differs MMA (in the U.S.) from Boxing is the large ratio of White fighters vs. non-White. The UFC, WEC, etc. is dominated by White fighters, so there never was an issue of a "great White hope". Because of the large quantity of White fighters, there's many White champions. The animosity towards Asian men that permeates many avenues of Western society is by no means lacking in the (American) MMA. Kudos to someone like Yushin Okami (UFC fighter); but he will have it tough. While there hasn't been any verbal signs of racism; the MMA media has helped to create it's heroes. Mainly White fighters with a few Black and Hispanic fighters thrown in. In my opinion, the (mis)matching of Brock Lesnar in his first match with a Japanese fighter was well thought out. When ESPN/ESPN2 show reruns and highlights of K-1 and Pride, both originating out of Japan; they seem very careful to only show fights of non-Asian fighters, and fights where Asians lose. When they broadcasted their Pride program, they dedicated their shows to showing 'best of' type fights of particular fighters. They are not always American; but never that I have seen; Asian. I remember "The Best Damn Sports Show" aired on FoxSports aired a segment called something like "The Biggest Beat Downs". This was a segment where they would show highlights of mostly Boxing and MMA knockouts. They did show impressive knock-out scenes from a Japanese fighter from Pride. However, one of the 3 hosts of the show had to make a disparaging comment referring mainly to physical size (his vs. the fighter's), and how he could take him on. Here's where I think politics interferes with undeniable talent. White society hates the idea of a heroic Asian MMA fighter. I believe there are very talented MMA fighters from Asia who can go toe to toe with any of the top UFC fighters. I think there is a limitation (and hesitation) on importing many of them. When I was in Japan watching K-1 fights; I saw some pretty incredible fighters. And K-1 includes different types of matches using different fighting styles.

Nov 13th, 2008, 02:14 AM	#2
Heyyu Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Lying drunk in a stinkin' gutter... Posts: 517	The issue of racism in sports has always intrigued me, because as you mentioned, sports is the one area where the playing field is leveled. It's perhaps why black athletes have come to dominate such high-profile sports like the NBA & NFL. And why players from Latino/Asian countries are now coming to dominate Major League Baseball (the most American of all sports). I think you're seeing a "White Flight" so to speak from certain sports, especially basketball, track-and-field & certain football positions like Running Back & Wide Receiver which are all seen as black dominated. Thus white parents & their white kids don't think they stand a chance against these "big strong black athletes" so they go into other sports that don't attract a huge number of African-Americans like hockey, swimming, tennis, NASCAR racing, figure-skating, etc. In fact, I honestly think this is why an athlete like Michael Phelps was hugely popular. Not only cause of his dominance at the 2008 Olympic Games (and swimming is one of the Whitest Sports around), but also cause he was sorta like the Great White Hope of the American people with his clean-cut image. I mean, the USA basketball team won gold, but many more people were rooting against them cause of the image of Black NBA players as too "ghetto" "thuggish" & "hip-hop." Ironically, I think NBA players might be more popular world-wide in countries like China than they are here in the USA. But fighting is an interesting area cause certain fight sports like boxing does have a high number of black athletes, mainly cause boxing was the highest paying of all the sports. Martial art contests like MMA & UFC haven't come around till just recently. And yes, there are a lot of white fighters... but I'll be quite honest and say that it takes a certain crazy person to even be involved in MMA & UFC. And most of the white fighters don't come from the most well-educated of backgrounds. In fact, if they weren't fighting, they would be your typical dock worker or factory worker or something blue-collar & lower class (which is many of these fighter's background before they got into MMA & UFC). Last edited by Heyyu : Nov 13th, 2008 at 02:20 AM.

Nov 14th, 2008, 02:42 AM	#6
Makulita Internet Tough Chick Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,025	... So why's it gotta be the white folk doing their tired ass white flight shit? The black kids are doin' shit like we all used to do inthe 90s: Be Like Mike. FYI, Mike was black. ------ Snark aside, I don't like that whole "its because of the white folk fleeing from the scary minority" because it implies shit like we don't break barriers, we're let in after Mr. The Man's done with it. Like Flo Jo, Michael Jordan... and if I fucking knew shit about sports I'd namedrop some more but its like saying those people weren't such a goddamn inspiration that the black kids didn't do shit to emulate them only that their coaches just needed to fill up the diversity quota on the team. __________________ Pride is not spelled A-Z-N, motherfuckers. "My membership to the revolution will not be based on how slanted are my eyes." - Yellow Rage

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Nov 14th, 2008, 11:22 PM	#8
BadArtist Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 61	THX1138 - That's a very interesting theory and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to suggest that people are subscribing to popular stereotypes (whether consciously or not) so they start generating self-fulfilling prophecies. Personally, I don't believe that successes in certain fields are specific to certain cultural groups because that's what they encourage. Again I'm just guessing here but I highly doubt that most black families encourage their children to become atheletes. And Asian families (like pretty much every family) want their children to excel at all things, whether it's academics or sports or the arts. I think it more has to do with institutionalized racism, and how it still restricts access to different racial groups according to popular stereotypes. Asians may seem to be more successful in the realms of math perhaps because it's more accessible to them while these same institutions reject blacks because of preconcieved racist notions. The same can be said of sports, with Asians and blacks reversing roles. That's not to say minorities succeed only because the whites let them. It took incredible amount of preserverance and ability to break through into these institutions in the first place. I think it's just that blacks were the first minorities to gain a foothold in American sports and flourished, while Asians did the same in math and science, becoming pioneers in these fields. And as minorites continue to break into different fields, I believe people will stop subscribing to these notions of racial specialization, or whatever it should be called.

Nov 14th, 2008, 11:28 PM	#9
BadArtist Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 61	Oh, and as for how this applies to dating, while there are certain racist hurdles specific to Asian men that they have to overcome, is the situation really that bad? Again this have to do with believing in stereotypes and creating self-fulfilling prophecies for yourself. There are real hurdles, and then there those that are imagined. I live in Southern California and everywhere I look I see Asian couples. My older cousins are happily married with children. And statistically, Asian men seems to enjoy steady relationships and marriage about as much as other groups.