Fighting44s Teleconference Notes

[THX1138]

Fighting44s Teleconference Notes

Who: JaeHwan, King4aDay, and THX1138
When: Sept. 9, 2008. 10 PM - 12 AM
Where: From California to Oregon
What: A lengthy teleconference about gender relations, male sexuality, activist politics, and race.

The following comments are my summation and thoughts on this conversation. They represent only my personal take on the teleconference and are not meant to be representative. JaeHwan and King4aDay may have different perspectives.

On Creating a Better Asian Man (and perhaps Male CCBs)

One topic that we discussed was William Lee's Better Asian Man (BAM) and by extension, the PUA scene. This PUA issue probably took up the most time of all the topics addressed--especially by King4aDay and JaeHwan who reveled in this topic like little kids in a candy store! But I digress.

Basically, there was a mixed assessment of the site. One the one hand, people had some problems with BAM's associations like its links with Asian Playboy and the PUA industry--both of which are obviously crude and sexist in nature. Though BAM is not of the same ilk as most PUA sites, there is the effect of "guilt by association."

Another thing mentioned was that other Asian PUA programs in effect define AA male empowerment as the ability to get some "White woman loving." At base, this kind of fawning over mostly Caucasian women only reinforces Whiteness as the standard of beauty and desirability, among other problematic things.

Put another way, does creating a class of Asian male CCBs--to go with the existing female version--really advance Asian American community empowerment? That's doubtful.

On the other hand, it was also acknowledged that BAM in particular did have the positive attribute of actually doing something in practice--rather than just talking about a problem as some activists tend to do. This is a primary merit of BAM. Indeed, William often asks critics of his site to offer a positive alternative or suggestions--to which there is frequently no response.

It was also suggested that Better Asian Man in the future could grow in a different direction away from the sexist world of PUAs. For instance, AA male dating problems are significantly about lack of social confidence, so one thing that BAM could do is to develop a broader program for developing social skills and personal confidence that includes but is not limited to the area of sexuality--basically a form of life coaching for Asian Americans. This could be one model of how to truly build a Better Asian Man (or even Woman).

In general, however, providing dating advice is not a form of activism. It's a form of self-help. While there is nothing wrong with this activity per se, it should not be mistaken for activism nor, more importantly, supplant it.

On Touching the Third Rail of Asian American (Cultural) Politics

No discussion of Asian American gender relations and sexuality could go without addressing what Jeff Yang has called the third rail of Asian American politics: the IR issue. So ya'll know this topic had to come up in the teleconference.

It was interesting for me to hear King's take on the topic, given that he brings a non-Asian perspective as an African American. He mentioned that he at first wasn't aware of the significance of this issue in the Asian American community. JaeHwan cited some statistics from a book by author Phoebe Eng asserting that over 50% of second-generation+ AFs marry out. I don't know how accurate these stats are, but King's reaction was one of mild shock, I would say.

While the IR issue is of course a favored topic of discussion--indeed, for some, it has become tiresome as a result--the significance of this topic goes beyond that of dating/marriage. Less understood by many people is that it's symptomatic of the fragmented nature of Asian American identity, culture, and community more broadly.

The heated, emotional nature of debate often breaks down according to gender lines, with AMs accusing AFs of selling out, and AFs accusing AMs of being sexists who want to control their sexuality. The IR phenomenon thus expresses a troubling gender division in the Asian American community.

Moreover, as Frank Chin has noted, the high outmarriage rates of Asian Americans (compared to other groups in the USA) are also reflective of “a people who failed to generate an identity and culture attractive and compulsive enough to make our people attractive to each other and survive as a people and grow as a culture.”

In other words, the IR issue particularly expresses a situation in which some Asian Americans have implicitly accepted "white standards of objectivity, beauty, behavior, and achievement as being morally absolute" rather than those that arise from an organic sense of AA identity and community.

At base, all these things suggest the importance of building Asian American community, identity, and cultural autonomy.

On the Fighting44s, or Fighting each other?

We also talked about the Fighting44s website. One topic that came up was the tendency for meaningless flame wars to develop.

It is one thing to debate an issue in an aggressive manner or to go after a troll that is obviously hostile to the ethos of the Fighting44s. This is understandable.

It is another to attack other Asian Americans who share a broader consciousness and interest in AA issues over relatively trivial things.

This latter kind of bickering is unproductive and will only repel people away more generally, rather than attracting them.

One possible reason for this type of conflict is that there's a tendency to argue from one's ego rather than the merits of the issues addressed. That is, in the world of the internet where debates are subject to public scrutiny, it is harder to stand down in a debate for fear of admitting defeat and public embarrassment. In short, nobody enjoys being pwned.

Another thing mentioned was that many web forums seem to follow a developmental path that leads to stagnation in part because they are not able to move forward intellectually, politically, or organizationally. The energy that drives a forum sometimes can be dissipated into mindless squabbles and infighting, with longtime contributing members eventually losing interest and leaving.

On Activism

Finally, the teleconference also addressed the topic of activism.

Put simplistically, the process of activism can be schematized as:
1). Awaken consciousness over an issue or problem,
2). Formulate a plan to solve this problem, and implement it into action.

As mentioned, one strong suite of the Better Asian Man site is its emphasis on practical application. In other words, BAM is able to move from step 1 to step 2, from theory to practice. The transition is obviously important not only for AA activist organizations in general but can be pertinent even for web forums like the Fighting44s.

One reason that some internet forums tend to stagnate as mentioned above is that they remain stuck at Step 1, talking about a given issue. After awhile, there is only so much to say. Indeed, discussion of any problem can become boring if there is no subsequent concrete follow-up action to reckon with it.

As Jaehwan has said:

"For many of the 44s, we’re not content just to complain; we want a means to change the rules of the game. As we mention in the podcast, the web is great for exchanging ideas and theory, but if we’re going to seriously take action, it requires taking the communication and collaboration to the next level."

While it's understood that the Fighting44s is not necessarily an activist site as envisioned by Dialectic and Lopan, the site has the potential to make an impact on the broader Asian American public sphere on a variety of political issues.

[xian]

Thanks for the write-up. Hope to chat with you all again in the near future. Sorry to miss you this time.

[jaehwan]

Awesome writeup, THX! I was a bit worried because I actually didn't remember what we discussed, but I think you got it right! I think King and Xian would enjoy talking to one another too.