Interesting rebuttal from an AA law student about affirmative action

[Heyyu]

Affirmative Action isn't an Asians best friend? This guy says otherwise. Posted from The Stanford Daily:

There is more to life than where one attends college.

I am responding to Andrew Chen’s letter “Affirmative action practices unfair to Asian Americans” (March 3.) He whines about the unfairness of affirmative action practices to Asian Americans. What he focused on too much was affirmative action with respect to college admissions. There is more to life than school.

I’ve got news for him — affirmative action benefits Asians more than it hurts, if you expand your insular views outside of the Ivy League schools. Trust me, this is coming from someone who used to think that affirmative action was the reason he got rejected by MIT and from someone who for a time was quite bitter about it.

I got rejected from MIT 13 years ago, and I figured it was probably because there were too many Asian kids there already. Well, they were right — there are too many Asian kids there already. The problem with the Asian community is that there is too much of a focus on higher education and too much showmanship in getting into the “right” schools. It’s as if these kids based their identify on what Ivy League school they got into. That’s a sad life.

If anything, maybe these brainiacs who got dinged from MIT should end up at State U — and then maybe they’d diversify into fields other than math, science, engineering or medicine. In the long run, the Asian community benefits more if fewer of us went to MIT and worked for Cisco and if more of us went to State U and founded Cisco. Just ask the legions of Asian engineers from MIT (and Stanford) who work for people that graduate (or dropped out of) State U. Would they trade places? Probably. In short, the Asian community needs to diversify — and not place its bets on higher education. There are things out there other than Ivy League schools, and you wonder why few Asian kids end up in the military, entertainment and sports.

So after getting dinged from MIT, how did I come to realize that the Asian community benefits more from affirmative action than not? Well, I ended up at West Point, where no doubt affirmative action played a role in my admissions process. I ended up in the Army, where I commanded a company for a brief time, where affirmative action played another role in my selection. And later on, I watched people like Eric Shinseki rise up through the ranks, where affirmative action no doubt played a role in his selection as Chief-of-Staff of the Army. In the Army, promotions for officers are based on a centralized board process. However, whether you like it or not, promotion is based on affirmative action. Minority officers need to be promoted at rates comparable to white officers, or else the Army forces the board to go back and reconsider the candidates’ files all over again. That’s a direct result of affirmative action. Not a bad system, I think, and it has nothing to do with college admissions.

To say that affirmative action policies hurt Asians because it restricts admissions to top colleges is to adopt a very insular view of the world and frankly shows a lack of understanding of the complexities of affirmative action. So you got that rejection letter from Stanford that says “Sorry, you are otherwise qualified but we just can’t take you.” Deal with it — it won’t be the last time in life that you will be rejected. And honestly, even if we got rid of affirmative action, do you really think that the University will allow Asian enrollment to go higher than it is now? Yeah — and I think Boalt Hall became all Asian after Prop 209 was passed.

Don’t worry, not getting into Stanford is not the end of the world. If anything, you just saved yourselves $160,000 for an otherwise overrated education.

Getting dinged from MIT was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Ryan J. Shih

Graduate Student, Law

[Heyyu]

I think the guy has a point. I've heard so much whining from AA's about not getting into the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, or Cal-Berkeley. I think Asians put way too much emphasis on brand-name schools since there's plenty of other colleges that offer fine quality education and lack Asian students... but yet not many apply because every Asian wants to go to the aforementioned prestige schools (hey, got to give bragging rights to your parents).

However, getting rid of affirmative action entirely would also mean the flipside - the affirmative action that helps Asians in other areas of life. Areas where Asians have been underrepresented but get chosen because they need diversity.

In short, I've noticed a very hypocritical attitude where Asians complain when affirmative action is stacked against us but don't say a word when it benefits them. A good example would be in the news media field where Asians get chosen as news broadcastors... although in this case a dispropriate amount are Asian women, which leds to a whole 'nother stack of stereotypes that's already been documented on here.

Another problem with discussion about affirmative action applicable to universities is that in general, out of the 2,400 colleges in the US... many Asians are underrepresented at 80% of those schools and hence would benefit from affirmative action. Especially at many private liberal arts colleges, even the prestigious ones. So really, overall Asians do benefit from affirmative action when taken as a whole.

But again, much of this discussion is about Asians applying to the few "top" schools. So yes, applying to UC-Berkeley, an Asians number is probably capped out since there's so many applying already. But for instance, they might benefit from applying to other good but overlooked universities like Wake Forest University which lacks Asian students.

Bottom line is that the top universities will try to maintain their "diversity" and admit more black and Latino and Native Americans even if it means sacrificing some of the Asian and white students. Are there faults with that? Yes, yes, and yes. Mainly it becomes a numbers game. So there needs to be adjustments.

HOWEVER, I actually think abolishing affirmative action at the top universities wouldn't help Asians much since as the original article mentioned, there's no way these universities would allow their student population to be all-Asian. White students would probably take up a lot of the spaces instead of the Asians (which they already do under affirmative action... take that away and it'd probably be worse).

So let's say at an Ivy League school it'd probably look like 70% white 25% Asian 5% everyone else. As opposed to 55% white 20% Asian 25% everyone else (BTW, I actually used a stat for one of the most recent Ivy League surveys at one of their schools).

[jaehwan]

The problem with the Asian community is that there is too much of a focus on higher education and too much showmanship in getting into the “right” schools. It’s as if these kids based their identify on what Ivy League school they got into. That’s a sad life.

In other words, if you don't succeed, lower your expectations.

[Heyyu]

Originally Posted by jaehwan

In other words, if you don't succeed, lower your expectations.

No, he's saying that Asians put too much value on the prestige universities for name-value rather than for the actual education itself. Which he has a point.

I also don't think he's saying to "lower" your expectations. Life is filled with failures and not everything will go your way. I think far too many Asians expect things to be handed to them on a golden plate instead of going through the ups-and-downs to achieve them. Personally, I think it's admirable how the person got rejected by his school of choice but pulled up his bootstraps and made something of himself instead of whining about it.

[ZhuBaJie]

i definitely agree that affirmative action benefits Asian Americans outside of school. but what i'm wondering is, why must affirmative action in and out of school be bundled together? and why not have a discussion specifically on affirmative action as it is applicable to university admission? i won't go so far as to say that it hurts Asian Americans admission rates, because i think what hurts more is white people thinking there are too many Asians at universities. but race-based affirmative action in university admission is an old bandaid that needs to be casted off. what's better is to use financial status and class as a measure of who needs affirmative action. for one thing, Southeast Asian Americans from refugee backgrounds do not technically qualify under a generalised affirmative action scheme that targets blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans, yet they are some of the most at risk groups in the country.

[ZhuBaJie]

Originally Posted by Heyyu

No, he's saying that Asians put too much value on the prestige universities for name-value rather than for the actual education itself. Which he has a point.

i'll agree with him when corporate America, and really, American society in general, begin to place less importance in the value of graduating from a school with a "good" name. until then, if i have children someday, hell yeah i'm going to push them to get into schools with the "good" names.

[Heyyu]

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

what's better is to use financial status and class as a measure of who needs affirmative action. for one thing, Southeast Asian Americans from refugee backgrounds do not technically qualify under a generalised affirmative action scheme that targets blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans, yet they are some of the most at risk groups in the country.

I agree there. Class and socioeconomic status is a far better indicator than race. It's no secret that a lot of the Asians (and Latinos and Blacks) that get admitted to the Ivies come from white-collar families. Although in terms of the blacks, many of the Ivies are recruiting immigrant African/Caribbean students who also come from white-collar backgrounds to fill the gap.

Also, I think too many Asians get lumped together. Some of the SE Asian groups are at a real disadvantage compared to the Chinese and Korean kids from upper middle-class families.

[minbo]

Sophestry. Doing well when you have been denied your first choice is not an example of how being "discriminated" in college admissions by affirmative action is good, but rather a reflection upon an individual's ability to make the best of a bad situation. As for anti-discrimination laws affecting minorities in the workplace by private employers, that is not Affirmative Action. That is anti-discrimination. Affirmative Action, while an aspect of anti-discrimination, is an entirely specialized situation.

I personally am not against Affirmative Action, in limited scope and duration. The issue is that the country, satisfied with with Affirmative Action, has taken NO action to deal with the underlying situation that Affirmative Action is trying to make up for, in essence making the makeshift bandaid the "standard of care' on a huge gaping social wound indefinitely.

I also think that instead of Asians paying almost the entire social tax of Affirmative Action (as evidenced in some universities that ended affirmative action), it should be spread equally onto other ethnic and cultural groups.

[Heyyu]

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

i'll agree with him when corporate America, and really, American society in general, begin to place less importance in the value of graduating from a school with a "good" name. until then, if i have children someday, hell yeah i'm going to push them to get into schools with the "good" names.

Yeah, that's true. But I think Asian families in particular place more value on the name (particularly for bragging rights). I mean, I've met many successful people from average no-name schools succeed and some from really prestigious schools that aren't as successful.

Yeah, it's good if your kid can get into Harvard... but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't. What's important is to instill the right set of values so your kid is prepared to handle anything the world throws at them.

Also, it's dangerous for Asian parents to say that once you get into Harvard, the road will be paved with gold and you got an easy way to success. That's a mistaken notion cause it's absolutely bullshit.

Heck, I've noticed a trend where some Ivy Leaguers are being shut-out because some places won't hire Ivy Leaguers (the notion that they're snooty... especially when the people hiring didn't come from the Ivy Leagues themselves).

But again, if a kid can get into an Ivy League school, good for them. But don't expect the world to bow down and lavish praise cause quite frankly, not everyone gives a damn.

[atlasien]

It's a myth that Asian-Americans are overrepresented at universities.

East Asians are overrepresented in some disciplines but underrepresented in the humanities and social sciences.

This may not seem like a big deal... but English and Sociology majors don't just go on to become burger flippers and bitter spoken-word poets, they also go on to professional grad schools and become lawyers and journalists and bitter middle managers.

The underrepresentation in the humanities means that Asians have a disadvantage in the communications area of business.

I agree, SE Asians get ridiculously discriminated against in the current system.

I would prefer to see affirmative action in university admissions that gave equal weight to both racial and cultural diversity. An African-American (culturally) should have a somewhat (but not completely) different status than a recent Nigerian immigrant, and similarly a Japanese-American would not be lumped in with a Samoan and a Cambodian-American.

But in general, yes Asian-Americans mostly benefit from affirmative action. White people ultimately benefit from it too, even though a lot of them just don't understand that yet.