Where Did All the Chicks Go?

[ZhuBaJie]

Originally Posted by aznbro

Couldn't we reserve an area for IR-related venting and ranting? That way, those that don't like it can steer clear.

that'll really only work if there's a strict policy of splitting and moving IR-related posts made in non-IR-related threads. and even then, sometimes it's not black and white which threads ought to be moved.

[evil_FUX]

Originally Posted by aznbro

Couldn't we reserve an area for IR-related venting and ranting? That way, those that don't like it can steer clear.

To a degree, that is why your friend the Shadow Gallery exists.

[awong]

Originally Posted by aznbro

Couldn't we reserve an area for IR-related venting and ranting? That way, those that don't like it can steer clear.

Maybe the re-stating and re-analysis of problems that are well known is a guy thing. Does anyone listen to the sports radio station Fan 590 call-in show after a Toronto Raptors basketball loss? Well you hear the same old thing for years ..." the raptors play soft, can't rebound and need to get tougher".. The problem is far from new but the phone lines can be tied up for hours by frustrated men wanting to re-add their not so unique perspectives.

or hearing on 620am about the tampa bay bucs cant develop a qb, where was gruden's high power offense lol

[monkey king]

Originally Posted by minbo

Proof of the pudding is in the eating...

If there is a new facts, perspective or logic concerning IR or meta-discussion surrounding if we should discuss IR, I'm all ears. Until such arises, while theoretically the subject and meta-subjects are open to discussion, practically it appears that the subjects and those who focus upon them will be the object of derision and ridicule...

That's a reasonable outlook.

[Dialectic]

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

i actually disagree with this. maybe they do for black people, but Asian Americans continue to be marginalised in the eyes of liberal whites. and perhaps my view of white liberals is just not as positive as yours is, but i can pretty much summarise my view like so: while white conservatives think racism no longer exists, white liberals think overt and direct displays like racist slurs are the end-all and be-all of racism today. they are entirely too sensitive to recognise the idea of race, and unless there's an overt display of it, they are too paralyzed to call it racism. while most minorities think Obama's election is progress because a black or non-white person is being represented in the presidency, white liberals think his election is progress because they think it signifies the arrival of a post-race America (whereas minorities do not).

but white liberals are actually irrelevant. it doesn't matter whether or not white liberals recognise these as issues in the Asian American community. as long as we ourselves recognise them as issues, they deserved to be discussed and worked on. and quite frankly, i'm alarmed that you think "the discourse has moved past" all those issues just because you think white liberals recognise them as issues. recognition by white liberals do not make those issues go away.

I don't think that the discourse has moved past simply because white liberals have recognized these issues; I think that the discourse has moved past because liberals recognize both structural and explicit problems, and what is happening now is that baby-boomer politics, grievance politics, is starting to take a back-seat to something that is not "post-race," but "trans-race,": that is, the most sophisticated understanding of issues transcends and includes race, but does not focus solely on it, and recognizes that race is but a factor in complex and nuanced understandings of social, economic, and political positions.

As I said, there will always be things to work on. This occurs for two reasons: 1) as people develop, new problems arise (the rise of self-esteem problems, for example, as a result of fundamental needs being met) 2) old problems never go away, because everyone starts from square one (recall that babies are born racist, i.e. everyone is racist before becoming as enlightened as you); they can simply be minimized by proper socialization and educational institutions.

In this sense, the work still has to be done (for example, there is less racial sensitivity in the deep south than there is in the north), and I don't deny or trivialize this: there is just not that much more to say, particularly in light of the commitment it takes to say it.

(Has anyone read the AngryAsianMan link to how ignorance of what real Chinese food is is dangerous and racist? It's fucking ridiculous, and our liberal Asian mouthpieces all love how accurate and observant the article is. When you have a community spending time on something like this and calling it a significant work, that's a sign of something.)

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

actually this view is quite reminiscent of many white people's view that racism has gone away since the civil rights era. post-civil rights era racism is much more subtle. i'm not going to discuss what the "fundamental problem" of racism and racial issues are, because that, quite honestly, is pointless symantics.

You take my argument and produce a straw-man. I'm fully aware of the "new racism" and "structural racism" and "systemic racism" and "subtle racism." Some of it is bullshit, and some of it is real. I have never stated that racism has gone away, and anyone familiar with my developmental view knows that I accept "racism" as a psychological reality, and a permanent human reality, and when viewed as such, I become less judgmental of it in certain contexts.

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

but whether or not the issues that do face the Asian American community are a big deal or not, if you're using the discussions on this site to gauge the interests of Asian Americans in these issues, i'm afraid you're going to be way off base. people that actually care about those issues are spending their time working on those issues or they honestly just don't come here. the reason is this - they are more interested in reading and discussing the real issues within the Asian American community than see another thread about how some Asian guy stared down an WM/AF couple.

I don't think you're being fair here. Our forum has not focused on IR for quite some time, and I'm not sure that our site ever did; we just made some observations that no one else was making on the internet at the time, expanded on them because we had to (as we were being called racist and sexist), and an audience came along for the ride for a while. We are, right now, whatever people want to make us into, which is nothing. As for your point about the real activists really working and not coming here, I don't disagree; however, I'm sure that if we were to become some sort of nexus for the issues you mention above, we'd get more. But again, here's the thing: it's not worth my time to talk about in a deep way, such that it can take third priority in my life after job and family, and apparently it's not worth yours, and apparently, it may not even be worth theirs.

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

put up a site and conduct interviews? no i have not done that. there are actually plenty of online resources on those issues. off the top of my head, i know that you'll find information about Asian American voter participation on AALDEF's website. and as deplorable as 80-20's tactics may be, they did recently publish a pretty nice study on the glass ceiling as it affects Asian Americans. on Hepatitis B, there's probably no better online resource for Asian Americans than Stanford's Asian Liver Center and its Jade Ribbon Campaign. for Asian American mental health issues, you can check out the National Asian American Mental Health Association's website (i think that's the name).

as for how much i care about these issues in real life. i have actually volunteered for programs that help Asian Americans get free screening and information about Hepatitis B. there is actually a lot of misinformation about the disease, even amongst the young and English-speaking American and Canadian-born Asians. i've also volunteered for voter registration programs for Asian Americans. as you may be aware, the language barrier can be a big deterrant to voter participation for the immigrant population. those of us that are bilingually fluent are in a great position to help.

I actually agree with 80-20s tactics and didn't find them deplorable; that's politics, and really, I didn't see any significant unethical behavior to get worked up about. As for the information they put up, that's great someone's doing it. So again, what is there to talk about, particularly for a relatively wealthy, well-educated segment of minorities, many of whom haven't been directly traumatized by racism, but may or may not have been affected by systemic patterns? And can we prove that systemic patterns are "racist" the same way we can prove that a violent Asian-beater is racist? Minorities don't get enough management jobs and political representation; minorities have a different set of biological, psychological, and social pathologies ... there are a lot of reasons for this, and I find it difficult to 1) spend a lot of time explaining something which I view as obvious, and 2) justify going down the road of grievance politics, particularly since so much of the rhetoric I hear from black and Asian speakers and leadership is self-absorbed and anti-white (except when it comes to who they fuck, naturally).

(continued)

[Dialectic]

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

but to put it back into context though, if anybody was to ask what are the issues that we can talk about at a forum like this, well, the examples that i list are some of those issues. of course, the forum membership may be apathetic to those issues, but that doesn't mean that they are not important enough to be discussed. it only means just that - that the forum membership is apathetic to those issues, and to be quite frank, the members on this forum are by no means representative of the Asian American community. for one thing, the girls keep going away, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why that is.

to be fair, sure, i do see political apathy amongst Asian Americans. but let me just say this - when you volunteer for an Asian American/Canadian specific cause, i'll bet you won't be the only person to show up.

I'm not sure what you're saying here ... we can talk about these issues, but actually, we probably can't, because no one will. No, 44s is not representative, but Lopan and I have learned a little something about AA politics, interest, web-readership, and demand in running this site, and put simply, the interest isn't there. We put up more intellectual thoughts, more political thoughts, articles on this or that observation and development, and there's no response; we say ok, we don't have the time/energy/understanding, let's invite others to post what they like, and we get almost nothing. I believe every AA magazine except one has folded, along with any attempt at television stations. You say fuck the interest, just talk about these important issues anyway, but it's hard to get up the interest even ourselves, particularly when we're talking about systemic problems which may not even be rooted at all in "discrimination."

I never said or implied that I'd be the only person to show up at an AA cause, or that no one cares. I've said the causes themselves are frankly not all that important, particularly since kids these days are so sensitive relative to past generations, and society is changing so rapidly. I've done some volunteering and lecturing, and there's always some interest, but it's a niche interest, and frankly I believe there are better ways of spending our time and helping the world than getting wrapped up in some issue that may not even have a fixable solution.

As for the girls going away, most of them were here for a long time, and most are still in contact with us outside the forum; it's just they felt that there was nothing more to read or say, and they weren't in a hurry to increase their contributions (they were all invited to), so what could we do? We've given them inordinate power and influence, and they've chosen not to change the flavor or discussion here toward any female-friendly or female-attracting direction. They've not made many significant frontpage posts, nor have they participated to nearly the same extent in the forum that I used to do. Besides, almost everyone has gone away, and we haven't been attracting as many new people as we used to, boys or girls, and you'd be right, because it seems that nobody has that much more to say. Instead of complaining about the plateauing or perceived death of the site, perhaps you or HurricaneSteve could submit a few dozen articles on issues you find important? We'd gladly post them, or possibly give you frontpage posting privileges if you're committed enough. So far nobody has come close to matching my contributions, which have been sporadic at best.

My experience is that forum members like to sit back and watch passively, rather than really contribute, but they'll complain at the drop of a hat.

On a practical level, the only reason our membership grew as it did, and that we were able to retain as many as we did for a while, is because of my participation: for a while there I was writing, editing, discussing, moderating for hours and hours a day, and that's just not in the cards anymore. We can't make a living off this, and the "issues" of the day don't strike me as particularly pressing; what can be fixed is getting fixed, slowly, and the rest can only be taken care of by increasing the AA population, which would largely be done through immigration policy design and reform (which I think is the most important type of lobbying and advocacy anyone could do right now).

[Dialectic]

Originally Posted by HurricaneSteve

ZBJ summed up my thoughts perfectly. Look D, I'm not trying to take anything away from the work you've put into this site, despite my criticisms. I and many others are eternally grateful to you for keeping this place going, as it's a great source for keeping tabs with what's going on in the AA community. Prior to joining I did not have an AA community to be a part of, given the demographics of my location, and this is the closest thing I ever had.

I'm not the most organized or eloquent person in the world so others will say this better than I ever can but to go from Tojo & SB1 to "LOLSLOWPOKE" is just really disappointing to me. I'm not talking about the actual language used but the attitudes that exist today. After 4 1/2 years, being militant is one thing, but completely condescending the second someone doesn't agree with someone else just doesn't seem like progress. I envisioned an intelligent, focused yet open-minded evolution over the years and sometimes that was the case but seeing where things are it seems like too many steps were taken going backwards.

Yes, AA's are capable of doing all that you described. If having basic needs covered is all that one needs for happiness then maybe it's okay that the media continues to portray Asians in a poor light. After all, it's not causing us to starve or stopping us from getting blue ribbons, right? I realize there is only so much that can be done from an Internet web site but I don't believe that having our basic needs met is enough. When we are on equal footing with the majority of America then and only then will the fight find a different cause.

So here's the situation we have:

A lot of different people with very different views came to our site with strong expectations. This couldn't last ... it was inevitable that some people were going to feel alienated and leave, and the standard I used to try to keep people here was intelligence: if you had something to say, or were at least funny saying it, you could stay.

A lot of people left or were forced out.

This was against the interests of our site, but we did it out of principle, and because it was the only way we could tolerate our own forum, and be able to tell people in real life about the site we ran. What remained was still an eclectic bunch, and again, AGAINST the interests of our site, we tried to cater to the minority interests, PARTICULARLY, girls and non-IR-interested people ... we wanted intelligent discussion on a variety of issues, Asian and not, fundamental and not, and it just died.

The girls weren't happy, the boys weren't happy, the Asians and non-Asians often came into conflict, and most of all, NOBODY REALLY CONTRIBUTED. It call came down to me (and for a while there, Jaehwan, who has basically left our site and used it as a springboard for his own) ... I could only do so much (and my opinions are not popular among white or Asian liberals), and nobody cared about most of Jaehwan's posts.

We gave the girls a lot more power and influence, but that hasn't seemed to change anything. In fact, it may have made things worse.

So what are we supposed to do? How many frontpage articles have you submitted in all your years here? What exactly are you looking for? If you and ZBJ are committed enough, I'll give you both frontpage access, and you can use 44s as a nexus for discussion you find important and stimulating, and hell me and Lopan will give you a cut of our meager Google ad revenue if you can bring in more readers. Will you do that? Will you be able to give me rough drafts of, say, five interesting and significant articles to convince me that you have a ton to say? I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.

The "problem" is we have more than our "basic" needs met ... East AAs have the first three levels of the Maslowe hierarchy covered, with also a significant presence in the top two. There's a bit of sexual and self-esteem pathology, there's problems with getting the top spots in politics and companies, but that will come with time and increased population, and people are happy enough that they don't really care: a QUINTESSENTIAL SIGN OF BEING A REAL AMERICAN. I am not convinced that there is a lot left to say, relative to other things we can all be putting our time into.

[ZhuBaJie]

Originally Posted by Dialectic

I don't think that the discourse has moved past simply because white liberals have recognized these issues; I think that the discourse has moved past because liberals recognize both structural and explicit problems, and what is happening now is that baby-boomer politics, grievance politics, is starting to take a back-seat to something that is not "post-race," but "trans-race,": that is, the most sophisticated understanding of issues transcends and includes race, but does not focus solely on it, and recognizes that race is but a factor in complex and nuanced understandings of social, economic, and political positions.

As I said, there will always be things to work on. This occurs for two reasons: 1) as people develop, new problems arise (the rise of self-esteem problems, for example, as a result of fundamental needs being met) 2) old problems never go away, because everyone starts from square one (recall that babies are born racist, i.e. everyone is racist before becoming as enlightened as you); they can simply be minimized by proper socialization and educational institutions.

In this sense, the work still has to be done (for example, there is less racial sensitivity in the deep south than there is in the north), and I don't deny or trivialize this: there is just not that much more to say, particularly in light of the commitment it takes to say it.

not much for me to say on this other than that i disagree. if i understand you correctly, you are saying that there's not much more to talk about simply because liberals recognise the problems in the Asian American community, which in itself i don't even agree. and even if this is true, i disagree that there's "not much more to say".

Originally Posted by Dialectic

(Has anyone read the AngryAsianMan link to how ignorance of what real Chinese food is is dangerous and racist? It's fucking ridiculous, and our liberal Asian mouthpieces all love how accurate and observant the article is. When you have a community spending time on something like this and calling it a significant work, that's a sign of something.)

not exactly the brightest example of what AngryAsianMan writes about. just today (1/13) his entries have included Steven Chu, a scandal in the San Fran PD's office, Meaghan Chung (who is involved in a scandal at the SEC), Judy Chu (most likely will be elected to Congress!), and the one trivial story about a woman setting her husband's penis on fire.

AngryAsianMan is a website that is still technically a blog, and that makes no secret about relying on a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour, so i hope it is not your main source of Asian American news. you can try Asian Week or Asian Fortune if you're really interested in keeping up with news in the Asian American community. and hey, check out one of the top stories at Asian Fortune right now. why, it has to do with one of four issues i mentioned earlier that the community faces - Hepatitis B.

http://www.asianfortunenews.com/site...article_id=135

Originally Posted by Dialectic

I don't think you're being fair here. Our forum has not focused on IR for quite some time, and I'm not sure that our site ever did;

that's fine, i see that, actually. but like i said a while ago on this thread, i think the damage has already been done. i'm not the only one here that understands that the IR issue is divisive, and like i said before, you let those rants go unchecked, it'll drive certain members away, and attract other members that really only want to talk about IR.

Originally Posted by Dialectic

As for your point about the real activists really working and not coming here, I don't disagree; however, I'm sure that if we were to become some sort of nexus for the issues you mention above, we'd get more. But again, here's the thing: it's not worth my time to talk about in a deep way, such that it can take third priority in my life after job and family, and apparently it's not worth yours, and apparently, it may not even be worth theirs.

and that's completely understandable. but what you're saying here is that you, me, and other members here are not interested (for whatever reason) in discussing issues that can be discussed. that is very different from thinking there not being anything more to say. very different.

[Dialectic]

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

not much for me to say on this other than that i disagree. if i understand you correctly, you are saying that there's not much more to talk about simply because liberals recognise the problems in the Asian American community, which in itself i don't even agree. and even if this is true, i disagree that there's "not much more to say".

What I'm saying here is quite simple: you bring up any of these structural problems, and any reasonably sensitive person of any race is going to say, yeah, that's bad, it's a problem, interested parties should work to fix it. In that sense, that aspect of the discourse is "done": there will always be individuals to work with and young/ignorant people to educate, but it's now part of the general worldview, just like "racism exists" and "racism is bad" is part of the general worldview. Old problems won't disappear, and new problems will always arise, there's no disputing that, and I'm not talking on the level of spreading "news" or "awareness," because more can always be spread; I'm saying that the fundamentals for prosperity have already been laid down, and the recognition of the evils of inequality is already widespread. In this sense, the groundwork is done.

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

not exactly the brightest example of what AngryAsianMan writes about. just today (1/13) his entries have included Steven Chu, a scandal in the San Fran PD's office, Meaghan Chung (who is involved in a scandal at the SEC), Judy Chu (most likely will be elected to Congress!), and the one trivial story about a woman setting her husband's penis on fire.

AngryAsianMan is a website that is still technically a blog, and that makes no secret about relying on a bit of tongue-in-cheek humour, so i hope it is not your main source of Asian American news. you can try Asian Week or Asian Fortune if you're really interested in keeping up with news in the Asian American community. and hey, check out one of the top stories at Asian Fortune right now. why, it has to do with one of four issues i mentioned earlier that the community faces - Hepatitis B.

http://www.asianfortunenews.com/site...article_id=135

I get my Asian news from all over the place; I used AAM as a facetious example of some of the triviality prevalent in the thoughts of well-known online representatives/ pseudo-advocates. About Hep B in particular, yes, it's a problem. A few observations:

AAs comprise 4.21% of the population (or round to 4.5% based on that article). 10-15% are chronic carriers (This is, incidentally, a funny number because it does not jive with the figure right before it; 1.25 million Americans have chronic Hep B, and over half are Asian, so we're looking at, say, 650,000. But our population is about 13,500,000. Based on the 10% figure, this would imply that there are 1.35m Asian chronic carriers. Sloppy writing/research?). We're looking at a problem that affects at most 0.6% of the U.S. population; I don't think we can fairly call this an issue of discrimination or neglect. In addition, causal factors include language barriers, cultural barriers, and poverty. I'm not saying that there's no more education/ awareness-spreading to be done; I'm saying, as I said above, that the groundwork has been laid down. In addition, I'm not sure that anything can be done, structurally, on a problem like this: 69% of all Asians are foreign born. 69%. This means that as long as immigration patterns hold up, more than 2/3s of our "community" are not going to speak English well, are going to have different and limiting customs and beliefs (in this environment), and will be poorer than average. There is literally NOTHING to be done about this. Successful immigrants will move up with time, and they should be assisted, but with 69% of the population being foreign-born, you cannot expect it to have the same breakdown of economic, social, and financial well-being as the white population.

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

that's fine, i see that, actually. but like i said a while ago on this thread, i think the damage has already been done. i'm not the only one here that understands that the IR issue is divisive, and like i said before, you let those rants go unchecked, it'll drive certain members away, and attract other members that really only want to talk about IR.

Your perception has been colored by events occurring years ago, and even then I would say that things didn't go "unchecked." When have rants gone unchecked recently? We have shut down and thrown out everyone who mentions IR in a non-deep or non-comprehensive way. You keep saying how IR is this big deal in our forum, and it has ruined everything, but it hasn't been a big deal for a couple years. Sure, you'll have a couple threads flare up here and there, especially when I write something on the frontpage, but come on, is it really that bad, that dominant? Note that IN THIS VERY THREAD, we have people arguing that IR discussion should be allowed, because we are being repressive otherwise.

Originally Posted by ZhuBaJie

and that's completely understandable. but what you're saying here is that you, me, and other members here are not interested (for whatever reason) in discussing issues that can be discussed. that is very different from thinking there not being anything more to say. very different.

Perhaps I am saying that in the point I'm making about the forum. But overall, I'm saying what I said above: the fundamentals for prosperity have already been laid down, and the recognition of the evils of inequality is already widespread. In this sense, the groundwork is done.

Finally, I appreciate your points about these structural problems. I emphasize that the examples you give are structural. They're problems identified by statistics (in the same way we point out IR imbalances with statistical arguments). You're saying that our stats don't live up to somewhat arbitrary standards set by either you or other interested parties. It is a very, very difficult thing to say "where" any group should be relative to some dominant norm (say, white breakdowns). Some points to consider:

75.9% of "us" have arrived in the U.S. in the last 20 years.
69% of us are foreign-born.
79% speak a language other than English at home.
44% of have a Bachelors Degree or higher compared to 24% for the total US population
About 45% of Asians were employed in management, professional and related occupations, compared with 34% of the total population. This number is 21.4% for Whites, 12.3% for Blacks, and 9.6% for Hispanics. Among top Asian groups, Asian Indians had most employment in management, professional and related occupations at 60%, followed by Chinese (52%) and Japanese (51%).
The annual median income of Asian families was $59,324, about $10,000 higher then the national average.

(These numbers all come from a multicultural marketing group, and are confirmable in the census data: http://www.ameredia.com/resources/de..._american.html. In my opinion, these figures also look right intuitively.)

Look at the first three points. Basically, when you consider whether we're "underrepresented" in politics and management, you have to knock out about 3/4 of us when you come to your standard: if you just got here, didn't necessarily grow up here, or spend a lot of time speaking in a non-dominant language, you cannot reasonably be expected to become a business or political leader. This applies anywhere in the world, and is unchangeable. So looking at AAs who actually have a chance and the ability to become a leader, you're looking at 1/4 of 4.5%, or 1.125% of the population. Are we still underrepresented under that expectation? Maybe, but at that very small size, can we really expect some sort of proportional performance, especially given that functional, English-speaking, U.S.-born Asians still have to navigate multiple cultural contexts and competing values?

Now look at the next four points. We may have trouble getting into the top spots of companies and nations, but we are doing way fucking better than either the population as a whole, or whites particularly when it comes to education, professional-employment, and income.

This is why no one really gives a shit about our problems, and why we barely give a shit about our "problems": because what problems we have left seem to be structural, and even structurally we're doing pretty damn well.

(As a side note: don't forget, "AA" or "APIA" is something of a fiction: we really have four groups lumped together: South, East, SE, and PIs. It is, in my view, impossible and undesirable for one "umbrella" group to try to represent all, because we have very different backgrounds and issues. Asian Indians don't face the same language barriers; East Asians (Chinese, Korean, Japanese) don't come from very damaged, colonized, pathological cultures (unlike, say, the Vietnamese or the Hmong, who have been fucked on all levels). So a lot of the structural problems we might see will apply largely to SE and perhaps PIs. People not directly involved in those cultures are ill-equipped to address the biggest internal problems: language issues, cultural issues, relational issues. We don't mix, and given that 75% of us are new Americans and can't speak English, we can't mix, and it's not reasonable to expect significant portions of the population to stand up for other portions which they have nothing to do with.)

I conclude with a blunt and insensitive final statement, one which ultimately rests on a priority of values which you say you don't share, but probably do share. Given the information presented above, the problems we have left aren't worth our time to talk about (except for those who work in those fields and can make a living dealing with these issues, or those directly traumatized).

[ZhuBaJie]

Originally Posted by Dialectic

AAs comprise 4.21% of the population (or round to 4.5% based on that article). 10-15% are chronic carriers (This is, incidentally, a funny number because it does not jive with the figure right before it; 1.25 million Americans have chronic Hep B, and over half are Asian, so we're looking at, say, 650,000. But our population is about 13,500,000. Based on the 10% figure, this would imply that there are 1.35m Asian chronic carriers. Sloppy writing/research?).

i'm actually glad you brought this up. this is exactly why Hep B is a subject that deserves discussion; because there's a lot of ignorance and misinformation on the disease, as you've unintentionally demonstrated.

the article says that half of the 1.25 mil Americans infected with chronic Hep B are Asian Americans, whereas 10%-15% of Asian Americans are HBV carriers. a person can be a carrier of HBV - the virus that causes Hep B - for his or her entire lifetime without it ever becoming active. basically, you can be a HBV carrier without being infected with Hep B. it's very similar to whether or not a person is a HIV carrier or an AIDS patient. transmission of HBV is also very similar to transmission of HIV. it can be transmitted through blood or semen, but a very common form of transmission is actually from parent to children.

if i remember correctly, only about 1% of white Americans are HBV carriers. this is why Hep B is often not given enough attention in medicine. it doesn't affect that many white Americans, who are the majority in the US.

Originally Posted by Dialectic

Perhaps I am saying that in the point I'm making about the forum. But overall, I'm saying what I said above: the fundamentals for prosperity have already been laid down, and the recognition of the evils of inequality is already widespread. In this sense, the groundwork is done.

i fail to see how that means there's "not much else to say". again, all i can say is that i disagree with your assessment about whether or not there're things we can talk about.

Originally Posted by Dialectic

Basically, when you consider whether we're "underrepresented" in politics and management, you have to knock out about 3/4 of us when you come to your standard: if you just got here, didn't necessarily grow up here, or spend a lot of time speaking in a non-dominant language, you cannot reasonably be expected to become a business or political leader.

that's one of the reasons why we're underrepresented, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we're still underrepresented, which is something that needs to be addressed. hell, the fact that many in our community are not proficient in English or are not aware of what's going on in politics is all the more reason why they need to be represented in politics. the threshold of how many Asian American politicians we need should never be based on the percentage of us that are proficient in English and American society; in fact i don't understand that logic at all. the threshold of how many Asian American politicans we need should always be based on whether or not our issues are addressed and recognised in government.

but representation in political offices is not the only politics-related issue in the Asian American community - we also have terrible voting rates. ok, so there's a combination of apathy and ignorance of issues, which i can guess is probably why we low voting rates. so the discussion becomes - how do we inform people, and how do we arouse interest? whether or not the "groundwork" has been laid on this is irrelevant to whether or not it is something to be discussed. the fact that we recognise we have low voting rates is not the end of the discussion - it is only the beginning.

Originally Posted by Dialectic

I conclude with a blunt and insensitive final statement, one which ultimately rests on a priority of values which you say you don't share, but probably do share. Given the information presented above, the problems we have left aren't worth our time to talk about (except for those who work in those fields and can make a living dealing with these issues, or those directly traumatized).

do you actually understand that there's a difference in not being interested in discussing particular issues, and there not being anything to talk about at all...?

i understand why a lot of people may not be interested in talking about the issues that affect Asian Americans. i am in complete agreement that many in our community don't feel like talking about it.

going back to the example of Hep B. how many here were actually aware of the difference between being infected with Hep B and being a HBV carrier? how many here knew how HBV can be transmitted? how many here are actually vaccinated against Hep B? do you even know whether or not you're vaccinated?

now if you want to say that people are simply not interested in these questions - i am in complete agreement. but from where i'm standing, those are particulars about Hep B that need to be discussed within our community, so i'd disagree that there's "not much more to say" about it.

how about the glass ceiling? i'm sure there are working professionals here. how many of us think that we may be affected by the glass ceiling, and be perpetually stuck in or under middle management? how many of us think that our bosses do not see us as executive material because Asians do not make good leaders, and that we're better off being told what to do and to quietly do our tasks?

Google "Asian Americans" together with "glass ceiling" and we get 23,200 hits. on Google Books we get 653 hits. on Google Scholar we get 1,050 hits. hard to imagine there's "not much to talk about" on the subject.

if what you're saying is true, i have to wonder why all these people are wasting their time writing articles, books, and doing research on Asian Americans, and teaching or taking Asian American Studies courses, etc etc. the low traffic here is not that there's "not much else to say". the low traffic here is because the members are not interested in talking about the issues that affect our community. and hey, i can understand why they're not interested. these are simply not the most exciting topics to talk about.