Olympics: Spain basketball team pictured in controversial pose

[t-tocs]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/10/olympics2008.olympicsbasketball

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2008/08/10/spanishbasketballteam.jpg

Spain's Basketball Federation has published a good luck advert for their men's team, the world champions, in which they stand pulling at the sides of their eyes in a slit-eyed gesture.

There is no obvious intention to upset their Olympic hosts in Beijing, but the irresponsible picture is likely to cause controversy and could be interpreted so as to lead to accusations of racism.

Spanish sport has been mired in rows over racism in the last few years. In November 2004 black English footballers were subjected to relentless racial barracking from home supporters in a match in Spain. Before the World Cup there were calls for Luis Aragones, then Spain's football coach, to be sacked after he called Thierry Henry a "black shit". And last year Lewis Hamilton suffered racist abuse during testing for the Spanish grand prix near Barcelona.

Spain play their first match in the Olympic basketball competition against Greece at 7.30am BST today.

[Liang]

Wow. They are just begging for a beat down.

[Heyyu]

Unfortunately, I don't think Yao Ming or the Chinese Basketball Team is going be able to give any beat-downs to Spain. Spain is considered one of the favorites for the gold and probably has the most superior team in the tournament besides the USA. I will be rooting for Team USA to give a beatdown to Spain though, and it will be ironic if they do since the USA team is entirely made up of black athletes that the Spanish soccer coach once called "Black shits."

[minorTruths]

good luck advert? that's fucking ridiculous! ignorant fucks! ignorant spain basketball federation which rightly or wrongly represents the ignorance of the whole country! that's right...the whole fucking country!

[Liang]

Someone has to do something about this shit. It's ridiculous how arrogant those fuckers are. Plus doesn't Li Ning have a contract with the Spanish?

[nightshade]

What a pack of losers.

[King4aDay]

Am I the only one beginning to detect a seriously racist pattern within the Spanish sports community?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36OPNTJGUMU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQv4aIXaGQ4&feature=related

[THX1138]

This Spanish picture just shows Eurotrash racism in all its ugliness.

Believe it or not, White racism could be considered worse in Europe than in the USA. It is certainly more naked. They are almost proud of their bigotry--as seen by these Euroracists' treatment of immigrants from Africa, the Middle East, Asia or even Roma peoples.

[ktkbs]

I don't care what these Moor halfbreeds do in their country. But they're doing this in China. They should be knifed in a dark alley.

Spain has 10% unemployment because they are uneducated, incompetent morons.

This is a good time to go over history. Not only did the Spaniards slaughter and rape the vast majority of the native peoples of Latin America, they also butchered Chinese civilians in Manila in the 1600s. This is generally due to their stupidity and violent nature.

Typical Spain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwg6d046ARo

White racism could be considered worse in Europe than in the USA

It's the same shit everywhere. Americans are just better at pretending they aren't racist, and are likewise better at profiting from/exporting (Iraq) institutionalized racism.

[awong]

I don't care what these Moor halfbreeds do in their country. But they're doing this in China. They should be knifed in a dark alley.

Spain has 10% unemployment because they are uneducated, incompetent morons.


they love too much of their siestas and lazy life style instead of working which spread over latin america :p

[Liang]

I wonder if the Chinese National Team got wind of this when they played Spain today. If I were Yao I would have given a bunch of them some hard, "accidental" fouls.

[minorTruths]

Unless, it's really hidden as last page news, none of the news outlets have seemed to pick it up. I just checked ESPN, Boston Globe, and CNN. Nothing on tv either. I did find this on yahoo. It will be interesting to see the fall out.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Spanish-basketball-team-poses-for-offensive-pict?urn=oly,100152

[nottyboy]

Unless, it's really hidden as last page news, none of the news outlets have seemed to pick it up. I just checked ESPN, Boston Globe, and CNN. Nothing on tv either. I did find this on yahoo. It will be interesting to see the fall out.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Spanish-basketball-team-poses-for-offensive-pict?urn=oly,100152

The only media outlet that I've seen this mentioned at is at TMZ, ironically. Just for the record, I only leave TMZ on while waiting for Malcolm In The Middle. :)

[nottyboy]

they love too much of their siestas and lazy life style instead of working which spread over latin america :p

Hey man, don't hate just 'cause we know how to REALLY relax. :p I'm not looking for an early heart attack from a crazy work ethic. ;)

[minorTruths]

The only media outlet that I've seen this mentioned at is at TMZ, ironically. Just for the record, I only leave TMZ on while waiting for Malcolm In The Middle. :)


Malcolm in The Middle? I enjoy that show as well...but I enjoyed it like 5 years ago. Sorry, you're kinda late.


Not knocking on reruns.

[nottyboy]

Actually, I've been watching it since the beginning. :) I just don't mind the re-runs.

[minorTruths]

Okay, just found the below article. This is not exactly, but kinda related to my last post in the thread entitled 'Responsibility'.

Jose Calderon, a Spain player, is basically using the argument that they had no racist intent behind their actions, and therefore there shouldn't be any issue and every thing is fine. Ho hum...what's new?

It's unbelievable that it was actually the players' idea do make the gesture instead of the photographers. And obviously it's unbelievable that Spain Basketball Federation was fine with all of it.

http://sports.inquirer.net/breakingnews/breakingnews/view/20080813-154329/Spanish-basketball-star-defends-slit-eyed-team-photo

Spanish basketball star defends slit-eyed team photo

Agence France-Presse
Posted date: August 13, 2008

MADRID -- A star member of Spain's Beijing Olympic basketball team, Toronto Raptors guard Jose Calderon, defended Tuesday a controversial advertisement where the entire squad posed while making slit-eyed gestures, saying it was an "affectionate gesture."

"What happened was that during a photo session where the Spanish national team was unveiled, one of our sponsors asked as to pose with a 'wink' to our participation in Beijing and we made an oriental expression with our eyes," he wrote on his Internet site.

"It seemed to us to be something appropriate and that it would always be interpreted as an affectionate gesture. However some European media did not see it as such," he added.

"I want to express that we have great respect for the Orient and its people, some of my best friends in Toronto are of Chinese origin."

In the ad for a Spanish courier company which appeared in sports daily Marca -- which has been widely circulated on the Internet -- the smiling players were standing on center court as they pulled down the skin around their eyes to make them appear slanted. A sketch of a Chinese dragon was drawn across the floor.

Among the members of the team was LA Lakers forward-center Pau Gasol and his brother Marc Gasol, a center with the Memphis Grizzlies.

Britain's Daily Telegraph said: "Spanish sport's poor reputation for insensitivity towards racial issues has been further harmed by the advert."

The Daily Mirror, also of Britain, said the "ad was unlikely to go down well with Olympics hosts China, and could well spoil Spain’s hopes of hosting the Olympic Games in Madrid in 2016 or 2020."

Madrid is one of the four finalist cities to host the 2016 games, facing off against Chicago, Tokyo and Rio De Janiero.

The International Olympic Committee will announce the 2016 host city in October. Spanish sports has been tainted by a series of racist incidents in recent years.

World football governing body FIFA fined the Spanish football federation after fans made monkey chants aimed at England's black football players at a November 2004 friendly international in Madrid.

Last year a handful of Formula One fans targeted British driver Lewis Hamilton during a testing day at Barcelona's Catalunya circuit while four years ago former football national team coach Luis Aragones was caught on tape making a racist remark about French star Thierry Henry.

Earlier Tuesday world champions Spain staged an impressive comeback to beat Olympic hosts China 85-75 in overtime in the men's basketball tournament.

[King4aDay]

...some of my best friends in Toronto are of Chinese origin.

Did he really have to go there?
Exactly how clueless are these guys?


_

[AZN MAN]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/12/spainbeatchina

[nottyboy]

I can't for Spain or those guys, but in this particular instance, I don't think they did it out of malice, but out of ignorance. They probably thought it was cute (just like back home they might). It's obviously wrong, though, and they should just learn, and apologize from the heart.

Honestly, in some ways the U.S. is way ahead of the curve when it comes to showing sensitivity.

And, yes, there is some deep rooted racism in Spain. A couple of years ago there were news of Nazi attacks on people from places like the Dominican Republic, etc.

I don't know how much of the population actually hates people of color, but one thing is for sure, they believe they're way superior. In their eyes, if they hadn't come to the Americas, we'd all still be "wearing banana leaves instead of clothes" (according to one guy on the net).

[ktkbs]

some of my best friends from Toronto are of Spaniard origin, but they are a nation of stupid fucks.

[nskripchun]

Ig'nant folks...

[King4aDay]

some of my best friends from Toronto are of Spaniard origin, but they are a nation of stupid fucks.

All of them? or just the Moorish (http://www.africawithin.com/moors/moors.htm) halfbreeds?

I don't care what these Moor halfbreeds do in their country. But they're doing this in China. They should be knifed in a dark alley.

[minorTruths]

This is the best article I have read so far. It touches on a few topics. I really hope David Stern sends a strong and unequivocal message through suspensions and fines for the NBA Spaniard players of which I believe there are four (the Gasol brothers, Calderon, and Navarro). But I am not holding my breath.

Of course David Stern and the NBA office is only going to do as much as it is financially prudent to do. And with the lack of international outcry especially from China and other international Asian communities, it makes the NBA's job of doing as "much as needed" (which is probably nothing) that much easier. I wonder why I am so pessimistic today.

Does anyone know of any petitions to the NBA that has started here in the US?
Asians shouldn't get bent out of shape by this shit, but there should be some responsibility and accountability held. I think there should be a certain standard code of conduct for such a globalized sports enterprise and certainly for the NBA,

It seems that at least 1 other team from another country participating in the Olympics have also taken similar 'Olympic' pictures.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/be...=yhoo&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/basketball/news;_ylt=AjPlam2pwvboGXuAKSizg9E5nYcB?slug=aw-nbaspainphoto081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Spain photo exposing NBA double standard?By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports 1 hour, 23 minutes agoBEIJING – When Jason Kidd logged into a laptop to see the Spaniards with his own eyes on Wednesday morning, the photo appeared just as described to him: Here were National Basketball Association players giggling like schoolgirls as they posed with fingers pressed against their temples in a squinty-eyed pre-Olympic salute to China.Before long, Kidd considered the consequences had those giddy European faces been substituted with those of Team USA.“We would’ve been already thrown out of the Olympics,” he told Yahoo! Sports. “At least, we wouldn’t have been able to come back to the U.S. …There would be suspensions.”And for his European peers, well, Kidd suggested, “They won’t do anything to them. It’s a double standard.”For Spain, there are several NBA players, including the Lakers’ Pau Gasol and Toronto’s Jose Calderon, in this unnerving team photo. They wore Spanish uniforms and had the federation’s seal on the floor. It ran as a full-page advertisement in a Madrid newspaper, an advertisement for a national team sponsor. This wasn’t an impromptu shot, but a carefully calculated choice.Gasol is too smart, too sophisticated, to have let this happen. After practice Wednesday, he suggested that he wasn’t troubled with the photo on the merits of longstanding racial implications as much as he thought it wasn’t funny. The sponsor pushed and pushed them to pose, he said. They broke him down.“It was supposed to be a picture that inspired the Olympic spirit,” Gasol said.And how’d that work out, Pau? Just imagine what would’ve happened had that explanation come out of the mouth of Carmelo Anthony? Here’s what would’ve happened: Stern would’ve been on the next plane to China to work the damage control.The Spaniards made a deplorable circumstance worse with dense justifications and a sense that they had done nothing wrong and nothing offensive. When they were hemming and hawing, digging a deeper ditch, Kidd talked at Team USA’s practice. He was curious how the Spanish players were spinning this.“They have some explaining to do,” he said. “They’ll come up with something good.”Gasol and Calderon aren’t just accountable to Spain on this Olympic stage but the global corporate entity that pays them more than $130 million in pro contracts. The NBA could’ve delivered a ready rebuke on Wednesday and there was none.They’ll dock you $50,000 for ripping an incompetent official, but you can get a pass on an orchestrated racial slur? Gasol is kidding himself to say that he was pushed into it. Do you think Kobe Bryant would’ve been pressured to pose this way? LeBron James? Gasol is a serious, sensitive player with the prestige and clout for Spain to step up and say: Forget it, fellas. This isn’t happening. Only he didn’t.As much as anything, this episode feeds a prevailing feeling among African-American NBA players that they’re the constant scapegoats for whatever issues – real or perceived – plague the sport. Without the public demanding a pound of accountability for European players, do they get a pass?“The simple question is, ‘Would Stern and the league hold the American players accountable?’ And I think the answer to that is yes,” one NBA general manager said. “So why wouldn’t he hold the ‘other’ NBA players accountable – unless the rules only apply to the American players.”So far, there’s nothing out of the league office. Rest assured, unless there’s an outcry over that photo, the NBA will wish this story away. Maybe the league will even issue a mild rebuke. It won’t be enough. Maybe this doesn’t rise to a suspension, but there should be significant fines and a bold condemnation. There needs to be a message delivered to NBA players everywhere: When you earn your money with us, you are always on the clock. Kidd, Kobe and LeBron understand it. It’s time the rest of the league does, too.As some suggest he’ll do, Stern can’t dismiss this as the business of a federation team. These are NBA players returning to NBA cities this year. Never mind the host country and millions of fans here, but consider the Asian-American season ticket holders in cosmopolitan cities such as Toronto and Los Angeles. One of the reasons the New Jersey Nets traded for Yi Jianlian was to market him to a large Asian-American base in Metropolitan New York.The NBA is a global league, so understand: Whatever the summer uniform, it’s the players who are forever representing the logo. The idea that Stern shouldn’t act on this behavior because it falls under FIBA and Spanish rule is ridiculous.“We could say that too, but at the end of day, we are still representing the NBA,” Kidd said. “No matter if we’re saying (the actions) have nothing to do with it. At the end of day, we have to go back home, and our jobs are there.”Stern is walking a slippery slope here, balancing relationships and partnerships in China and Europe. Already, there are jealousies developing in Europe over the way Stern is fawning over the Chinese market. Some European teams have told American marketers and agents that they’ve felt neglected in Stern’s wanderlust for Asia. FIBA is the governing body for European basketball and they’ve already dismissed this as a non-issue. That’s FIBA’s right, but the NBA has a different responsibility here. It has to take the higher ground.“It would start an international riot if we did it, but they aren’t us,” an Eastern Conference executive said. “It’s low-rent stuff, but FIBA won’t do squat, so (the) NBA would show them up with any punitive action. I would be shocked if the NBA does any more than condemn (the) action.”These Games have been a fascinating illustration in the complexities of the NBA’s globalization. The Americans have been treated like rock stars in China. Team USA has handled everything with grace and good humor. After too many trips overseas when this wasn’t the case for America’s national team, it sure is now.Yes, there are different attitudes in the world, different sensibilities in Europe and North America. But for the NBA, there can be just one set of right and wrong. There should be only a strong voice and strong action now. No one should have to call for accountability from the Spaniards – the way that they would for Americans. Once and for all, David Stern has to be clear that there aren’t rules and responsibilities for different athletes, and different backgrounds – just those for an NBA player.

[minorTruths]

All of them? or just the Moorish (http://www.africawithin.com/moors/moors.htm) halfbreeds?


nice one .

[minorTruths]

Ah screw any NBA action now...

Li Ning's spokesperson just gave Spain a pass. Damn the all mighty yuan!

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/be...ov=ap&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/basketball/news?slug=ap-bko-spain-photo&prov=ap&type=lgns)

----------------
Frank Zhang, Li Ning’s director of government and public affairs, played down the incident.

“We don’t think this is an insulting gesture to the Chinese,” Zhang said. “In fact, the gesture shows that the Spanish team is so humorous, relaxing and cute. They sat around a dragon pattern, which we think showed respect to the Chinese.

“Li Ning Ltd. will not change any business plans with the Spanish team because of this,” Zhang added. “People should focus on great Olympic Games instead of something else.”

[jaehwan]

minortruths:

Great article. I may frontpage it.

About Frank Zhang--remember Ted DiBiase's famous words: "Everyone has his price."

[RebelAzn]

Ah screw any NBA action now...

Li Ning's spokesperson just gave Spain a pass. Damn the all mighty yuan!

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/be...ov=ap&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/basketball/news?slug=ap-bko-spain-photo&prov=ap&type=lgns)

----------------
Frank Zhang, Li Ning’s director of government and public affairs, played down the incident.

“We don’t think this is an insulting gesture to the Chinese,” Zhang said. “In fact, the gesture shows that the Spanish team is so humorous, relaxing and cute. They sat around a dragon pattern, which we think showed respect to the Chinese.

“Li Ning Ltd. will not change any business plans with the Spanish team because of this,” Zhang added. “People should focus on great Olympic Games instead of something else.”

You do realize Li Ning is a sponsor of Spanish team right? They are trying to save their sponsorship. However, I think the NBA should say about this behavior. It won't be so funny if all the Spanish players paint their faces black and act like monkeys in front of the camera. I wonder how the Spanish people would feel if bunch of Chinese players wear bunch of ape suit and talk in broken funny Spanish. What they did was not too much off from that. Sometimes action speak louder than words even if the intention was innocent. The right thing now is for those Spanish players to apologize publicly, admit they are ignorant and ask for public forgiveness.

While I don't know what the reaction in China is regarding this. In the West, this gesture is used by people trying to make fun of anyone of Asian descendant. Therefore, it is offensive to Asians living in the west. I can't believe these guys are that stupid.

[minorTruths]

You do realize Li Ning is a sponsor of Spanish team right? They are trying to save their sponsorship.

Of course I realize this...that's why I wrote "Damn the all mighty yuan!". Li Ning could have done the socially responsible thing but no...because money talks (everyone recognizes that).

However, how it usually works when there is an uproar against an offending party (Spain basketball team/ federation in this case) is that the protestors and activists go after the money. Meaning they protest and make enough raucous until the sponsors, who are afraid of bad publicity, start pulling their sponsorships...and hence, in effect, this hurts the offending company financially.

In this case the dynamics are a little different because for one, the sponsors themselves are Chinese...
and two, if Li Ning pulls their sponsorship of Spain's national basketball team which basically represents the country of Spain...it would surely cause bad relations with the entire country and hence make it nearly impossible to market their wears anywhere in Spain.

I understand that...and that's why the situation is so fucked up!

Personally though, I think Li Ning should think outside the profit margins a bit, and just shrewdly do the right thing. By pulling out of whatever sponsorship contractual agreements they have with Spain, sure there may be some small strategic monetary loss and you loose Spain as a potential market...But if they do pull their sponsorship and make a nice big show of it, they will accomplish two things. First, they will make a political and social stand for what's socially responsible. Second, they will also in effect garner the publicity, marketing, and promotion they thought they would lose.

Li Ning needs to stop being so rigid and short sighted in their 'business plans' and start thinking more strategically, more responsibly, and just be fucking smarter about shit like this than the fucking country that just spat in the face of your country.

Maybe Chinese people don't care and will still buy Li Ning products, but I sure won't be spending a dime on any of their products....that is if they ever become as big as they hope for.

[minorTruths]

Let me just add that yes, if Li Ning had chosen not to sponsor Spain any longer, Li Ning would also lose a lot of international exposure whenever Spain's basketball teams play internationally. But so what, who cares...there is also great sustainability in developing a socially responsible reputation and set of values in a company.

The socially repsonsible value propositions of certain companies have made them the successes that they are today (IKEA, Google, Cipla to name a few). Granted in IKEA's case for example, we are talking about child slave labor...but still, Li Ning can play this out differently and still maintain it's business plan.

[RebelAzn]

Let me just add that yes, if Li Ning had chosen not to sponsor Spain any longer, Li Ning would also lose a lot of international exposure whenever Spain's basketball teams play internationally. But so what, who cares...there is also great sustainability in developing a socially responsible reputation and set of values in a company.

The socially repsonsible value propositions of certain companies have made them the successes that they are today (IKEA, Google, Cipla to name a few). Granted in IKEA's case for example, we are talking about child slave labor...but still, Li Ning can play this out differently and still maintain it's business plan.

I agree Li Ning is being greedy. However, I want to see some reaction out of China for this. I did hear some boos during the Spain/China game. Chinese guys generally are fairly supportive of their home team and the opponent. Perhaps as this thing boils over, there will be more boos during Spain games. The easiest way for Spain to get out of this is just apologize for their actions and explain they are just ignorant on how offensive it is.

I don't think these guys did it out with malicious intent. It is like me paint myself black and go into a black neighborhood acting like an idiot. Last thing these guys want is having all the Chinese go nationalistic on their ass while they are playing in China. I think they are just so ignorant on how offensive it is to Asians who have been living in the west.

[Liang]

After some more pondering, I think that maybe the basketball players themselves were not intentionally trying to insult the Chinese. They are just ignorant and stupid. And I do hate how they are trying to brush off all accusations of racism just because they themselves didn't find it offensive (why would a white dude find a chinky-eyed gesture personally offensive?). IMO, athletes should not be expected to be the most socially aware and intelligent individuals, so it is no wonder that none of the players strongly opposed the shoot. However I do think that the sponsor who came up with the idea WAS trying to be racist. Maybe the company is upset and/or jealous that Li Ning got a contract with the Spanish Olympic team. Whatever the reason, they were the ones who pressured the players into doing the photo.

And I think that the only thing more bitchass than the photo and the team's lame excuses is the Li Ning spokesman's statement. I lost a few brain cells when I read that shit. I know money talks, but god damn!

[THX1138]

Spanish Stupidos strike again!

http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/2008/08/spain-strikes-again.html

[jaehwan]

Spanish Stupidos strike again!

http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/2008/08/spain-strikes-again.html

And again!

http://www.asianweek.com/2008/08/14/spanish-olympians-more-controversial-photos-uncovered/

It must be something in the water.

Shit, I think we should just stop competing against them. It ain't worth it.

I'm writing a letter to David Stern.

[minorTruths]

I grabbed this off the forum on Yaomingmania.com. The poster did not provide a link. I will post the original source once I find it. But the situation has really become messed up. Wow! The really, really bad consequences of what now seems like coordinated actions by Li Ning (which face it...means the same thing as China gov) and Spain will be very hard to reverse.

If this is all true, man...speechless. And btw fuck you Spain. And I hate to say this...but judging from lack of response from China...fuck you too China.


--------------------------------------------------------
Official release by the Spainish basketball fed:


"8/14/2008 Beijing/Madrid, August 14th, 2008. Due to the controversy that has arisen in the press because of a gesture made by the Spanish men´s basketball team in an advertisement photo taken before the Olympic Games in Beijing (which imitates the slanted eyes that the Spanish culture affectionately identifies with Asians in general and Chinese people in particular), the Spanish Basketball Federation feels the need to express the following:
1. That, as the immense majority of the Spanish and international general public have fortunately understood, and as the embassy of the People´s Republic of China in Spain has corroborated, that the only significance of said gesture was one of affection, friendliness and recognition, which is what this Federation feels for the people of China and their country.

2. That the FEB has maintains a now long relationship with basketball in the People´s Republic of China, and is committed to its development, which is highly reflected in the tight collaboration found in referee, player and coach training, as in the regular visits that the different teams of the Chinese Basketball Federation have to our country, as they are invited by the FEB to compete and prepare for their international competitions.

3. That beyond athletic relationships, the FEB has been one of the first Federations in the world to maintain commercial relationships with Chinese institutions and businesses, such as the athletic shoe and apparel company Li-Ning, which is one of the oldest agreements that the FEB has. Molten and Lenovo are other Asian companies that collaborate with the FEB, the first of the which has already dedicatedly contributed to the biggest success in Spanish basketball history, two years ago when the world championship medal was conquered in 2006, in Japan precisely.

For these reasons, the FEB considers that this controversy, which is completely gratuitous, was generated in bad faith by some members of the press who wanted to harm not only the FEB´s image, yet also the image of our country and our sport, so we therefore reserve the right to take appropriate legal action in order to safeguard it.

Once this press release has been published, the FEB considers the topic closed, and will not make any further declarations regarding the situation."


.

[minorTruths]

Here's the link to the above press release...
http://www.feb.es/NoticiaDesarrollo.aspx?idNoticia=21758

[Lordonlow]

What's missing in all of this gibber jab is honesty.

And let's do be honest here; if the Spanish team had "honored" an African country by donning black face and Afro wigs, there'd be plenty of shit coming down on them. More, they just wouldn't have done it.

Why then is it okay for them to single out another race's physical attributes...???

Answer: It's not.

But Asians can shoulder some the blame. By not taking a cue from blacks and fighting back, we open ourselves up to this kind of "gentle racism." Worse, whitey gets away with it relatively unscathed.

[King4aDay]

What's missing in all of this gibber jab is honesty.

And let's do be honest here; if the Spanish team had "honored" an African country by donning black face and Afro wigs, there'd be plenty of shit coming down on them. More, they just wouldn't have done it.

Why then is it okay for them to single out another race's physical attributes...???

Answer: It's not.

But Asians can shoulder some the blame. By not taking a cue from blacks and fighting back, we open ourselves up to this kind of "gentle racism." Worse, whitey gets away with it relatively unscathed.


Yeah, in the Black community, we know all about these "expressions of Anglo affection"
AREN'T they soooo cute :) Oh, nobody meant to offend you, don't be so silly,
it's just harmless pro-black affection!!! Sooooooo cute!!!!

Warning: You can't afford to be soft on this one.


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1094/1443302617_d87e15fbb9.jpghttp://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/otherness/images/blacksambohotpadholderA.jpg

[calalta]

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/8471/nba0708pre2wx1.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nba0708pre2wx1.jpg)

[RebelAzn]

Ok this article below summarized the attitude of average Chinese citizen on Spain's picture. This also highlights one of the many differences in attitude of average Chinese citizen vs. Asian Americans.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26193825/

Spain's snafu angers few Chinese natives
Eye gesture in photo is familiar torment in America, but not homeland
Susana Vera / Reuters file

Despite it being an unfamiliar gesture in China, most natives understand why Spain's basketball promotional photo would offend people of Chinese descent, writes MSNBC contributor Sunny Wu.
View related photos

Exclusive Summer Olympics news & widgets at NBCOlympics.com!


By Sunny Wu
MSNBC contributor
updated 3:12 a.m. PT, Thurs., Aug. 14, 2008

This is an ongoing series of Olympics cultural reports Sunny Wu is filing from Beijing. Check back twice a day for 'The Buzz' and 'Nightlife.'

BEIJING - Pau Gasol has apologized, saying the Spanish basketball team never meant to offend anyone. Point guard Jose Manuel Calderon wrote on his blog that the gesture, fingers pressed against their eyes, was meant as an "affectionate" message for the Chinese people. Spain's coach, Aito Garcia, who has refused to address the controversy, snapped at a reporter after the team's 72-59 victory over Germany on Thursday.

Spain has had to deal with the fallout from their role in a newspaper advertisement for a Spanish courier company. In the ad, the players are using their fingers to make their eyes more slanted, more Chinese. For many Asian Americans it's an offensive, racist gesture, something borne out of playground bullying and harassment.

“It is unfortunate that this type of imagery would rear it’s head at a time that is supposed to be about world unity,” George Wu, the deputy director of OCA, an organization representing Asian-Pacific Americans, told the Associated Press.
Story continues below ↓advertisement

The international media has also criticized Spain, suggesting that the photo flap could affect Madrid's bid for the 2016 Olympics.

But what do the Chinese think? Were they offended by the gesture? Did the even know what it meant?

With the help of Yi Song, an NBC interpreter from Shanghai, I showed the photo to Chinese spectators who were walking around the Olympic Green. None had heard the news or seen the photo because the state media here have not reported on the controversy.

We showed the photo to people, asking for their initial reactions.

"They're thinking," said 21-year-old Xu Xiao Su.

"They're just happy, smiling and pointing to their eyes," said Xu Ke, 42. "Or maybe they're sending a message to the Chinese team because they will be competing against them."

"They must be saying the Chinese people are really thoughtful because they're pointing to their minds," said Ma Yan Xin, 19.

"Perhaps they're mimicking someone. Maybe it's supposed to be a funny thing." said Lui Han, 23, who was studying the picture with her boyfriend.

Out of 14 people — the youngest was Ma, the oldest was a 60-year-old college professor — we asked, only one person correctly understood that the Spanish team was pulling their eyes back to look Chinese.

Most Chinese people have never seen the gesture. For many Asian Americans it's an all-too-familiar source of torment.

When told what the Spanish team was doing, there was a mixed reaction. Some were offended, some were not. Most, however, could understand why the gesture would be offensive, especially to people of Chinese descent living abroad.

"I don't think it's funny," Han said. "They're making fun of the Asian face. I don't think it's appropriate."

"For the people who grow up in foreign counties, there might be a problem and it could be very insulting," Ke said.

But Ke added that she personally wasn't offended by the photo.

"It's not a big deal to me. It doesn't matter to me," she said.

One 29-year-old man, Xie Xiang Dung, echoed Ke's remarks.

"This kind of insult doesn't exist in mainland China. It's not a problem here," he said. "But if it's problem [in the U.S.] it's reasonable to have an apology for [Chinese Americans]."

His friend, however, had a different take. She was amused — even flattered — by the photo.

"They're all very big guys doing something silly and making a fool of themselves. They're trying to connect with the Chinese people" Li Xiu Xia said. "Slanted eyes are considered very beautiful in China. So I think it's a compliment, not an insult."

For one final perspective, we approached a family from Albuquerque, N.M., and asked what they thought of the photo. It was the first time they had seen it.

"It's not nice to put something like that in a newspaper or a magazine. It's disrespectful," said George Cook, who initially thought the players were pointing to their brains, not their eyes. Cook was attending the Games with his wife and five children.

Was he personally offended or upset?

"Actually, I think it's kind of funny."

[howstrange]

I find it hard to believe there aren't Asians in Spain who don't get this gesture during racist taunts and bullying. Spanish teams and fans have a history of being blatantly racist. While the Chinese may have no clue what this is all about, I have a feeling the Spanish team did this as pre-game trash talk.

[Makulita]

This spaniard tomfoolery won't ever come to a satisfactory conclusion from where we stand. As long as people in mainland China are saying they're not personally offended by this shit, I'mma bet my fat, pale ass than the Spanish teams/Argentine team will use those people as excuses for their bullshit.

That's the way it always goes, right? If there is at least one of the offended group who speaks out about not being offended the offender is always gonna run and cower behind who they perceive as their defender. They use that one person(s) as an end-all, be-all shield for their dickery and use them as a comparison for everyone else who's angry, ex. "This person(s) isn't angry! Why are you? Because you're all oversensitive and just picking a fight with mee [Boohoo boohoo]!"
Granted, that gesture in China isn't known or used and the article Rebel posted confirms it but that shit isn't going to magically erase its connotations overseas, motherfuckers.

If anything this scandal just proves two things to me; one, that people are sheep to the commands of anyone they let have authority over themselves (even when they really don't). Secondly, people only take responsibility or shirk responsibility for their actions only after it affects them positively or negatively.

Also, 'sup SpanishGuy21, welcome to the world of [subtle] anti-Asian racism.

[minbo]

OK, I have resisted responding to this thread till now, I know that I'm going to get flack for this, people won't understand and will get all hatorade on me. One of the reasons I decided that I had to write this because the issue of self-consistency is also directly relevant to the elements of general misogyny and denigration of Asian women from the PUA thread and a lot of other threads that crop up regularly. This is all tied into another topic, the faculty of sympathy, which I'll spare you from for now. Perhaps this thread can help illustrate to people how a biased perspective may cause a significant failure of consistancy. Outrage when a situation applies to one-self and complacancy and operating with blinders to the plight of others when it does not.

This situation is very similar to the Obama change ad with the monkey substitution, except that it is offensive to Asian Americans instead of offensive to Black Americans. To quote from Coetzee's The Lives of Animals "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds". Not to imply that anyone on this board has small minds, that's just the quote. Anyway, Gerard was applying the quote equally to all of humanity, saying that it is a small mind to hold oneself absolutely consistent across all situations regardless of circumstance, not saying that it is a small mind that is not consistent. Elizabeth Costello's reply is just three words "Degrees of obscenity". Her meaning was that while there may be situations which create distinctions which seem to accommodate deviations from self consistency, just because the choice is not as bad, on an absolute scale, it still is bad.

This was a Spanish ad using Spanish nationals, produced for distribution only within Spain where the symbolism used is not offensive. For consistency with the conclusions from the phone ad thread, this ad should be a non-issue and is none of our business.

Even so, I guess I'll get back on my "over PC" bandwagon and say, with slight modifications:

I can easily see how people would be very offended by it, not just oversensitive militants.

Yeah, the people who made the ad may have had intended all sorts of non-offensive artistic and intellectual narratives mixed together and not consciously intended any slight, but that doesn't mean that the end result is not offensive. In light of past baggage, making ads where non-Asian people try to physically emulate Asian people really needs to be carefully done, and this commercial was not carefully done at all.

Edit to add link to Obama Change ad thread, since I refer to it a lot in this post.

http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6296

[minorTruths]

OK, I have resisted responding to this thread till now, I know that I'm going to get flack for this, people won't understand and will get all hatorade on me.

"Consistency is the last resort of the unimaginative." - Oscar Wilde
I am not sure if that quote has any value in addressing your post. But then again, I am not sure if I follow your post. I threw that quote out there just to sound smart and it probably has nothing to do with anything. I guess I am one of those people you mentioned who won't understand.

Having said that, I think the specifics of each case (the monkey phone ad and the Spanish team photos) merits attention and distinction. The attributes and circumstances (when closely examined) are very different in the two cases. And therefore, the two incidents should not be treated with consistency. I would also say that in addition, the results or subsequent fall out if you will, of the two incidents are vastly different. And therefore, the two cases should be viewed only in contrast in retrospect and not in comparison for any argument of consistency and degrees of obscenity.

The photos were made public period whether it was in Spain or leaked to the rest of the world. They are out there in the media for public viewing and scrutiny as it should be. I am not going to argue and get into the details of whether the photos were offensive or not. I am not going to get into the details of whether there is anything inherently wrong with the photos or the actions of making the “oriental expression” in the photos. Although in doing so, I believe the fundamental crux of the issues will surface.

But I'll say that it only became a much bigger issue when the basketball players and the Spain Basketball Federation tried to defend their actions with even more stupidity. This in turn made the original photos that much more controversial and that much more of an issue (with Asians in general taking the most issue with it).

If you want to talk about human behavior and tendencies to prescribe a general philosophy, that’s one thing. But to talk about the specific merits of a specific case is a totally separate discussion in my opinion. Sure…at some point during this second discussion, you may bring up the notion of consistency and human sympathy and bias to make a point to someone who has a differing argument or apathy towards the situation. That would work well. But I think those are two different discussions. And I don’t think that was the point you were trying to make anyway.

I will stop here since I don’t quite understand your post and it kinda shows in my response. Therefore, I don’t want to go off on some tangent that may not be addressing your post adequately if at all. BTW, no hatorade being poured.

[minbo]

Oscar Wilde and Gerard are right. Consistency is the refuge of the unimaginative and small minded. Costello was right also, when making compromises, it is accepting shades of grey, it is accepting degrees of obscenity. In the real world, few things are starkly black and white, it is not possible to be consistent in all things. However, one should be aware of their inconsistencies and how their priorities have induced them to choose their specific compromise position.

For example in the PUA thread, from what I understand, Kalbi does not like AF CCBs but, he is accepts the inconsistency of some AM chasing WF because it is an imperfect means to a greater end. Once the end is achieved, in an "ideal" situation, then the means becomes invalid. Discussing the issue with him is different than discussing the inconsistency of people who dislike AF CCBs, but accept AM chasing WF just "because". Because of "Kingstonian" literature, because AF have hurt AM, or because of some other logically incomplete and/or logically dubious reason. Both of those are in turn vastly different than talking to someone who pillories AF CCBs, then in the next sentence starts singing praises of WF, saying that WF are naturally the most beautiful women around, that it raises the social status of AM to be seen going out with WF, etc.

The telephone ad and the basketball ad do have some large differences. Even so, in my opinion, the two situations are alike enough that the Fighting 44s consensus reaction is inherently contradictory, that the consensus does not see the contradiction, nor does it care. Much as the people who decry the actions of AF CCBs but worship WF saying that the majority of the attractive people come from Europe, America and South America does not see their contradiction, nor do those peopel care. The consensus on Fighting 44s for the telephone ad was that it was a non-issue and that BlackTokyo was overreacting. The consensus for the basketball ad by folks in China appears to be that it is inoffensive and a non-issue. The consensus on Fighting 44s appears to be that if Spain did blackface it would not be accepted, that Spain is full of ignorant racist fucks, using the fact that the world at large does not see the ad the same way that Fighting 44s see it to cry "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!".

Edit to add (and fix a buttload of spelling mistakes):
I may disagree with the examples that I wrote about in the PUA thread, but I think you can guess which of the three inconsistant positions I would be most comfortable sitting down in a bar and having a drink with. I did not write at all about the people who were consistant in the PUA thread, and there were some, nor am I directly addressing mysogeny or anti AF posistions, outside the scope... While I personally think that the telephone ad and the basketball ad are similar enough that I personally prefer to be consistant, I am fine with the concensus reactions between the telephone ad and the basketball ad beign inconsistant, as long as we are not just being ignorant of the inconsistent positions or stupid with our reasons for being inconsistent.