China's rich have insatiable appetite for haute couture

[SamuraiJack]

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080529.wchinafashion0529/BNStory/Business/

HONG KONG — European and American fashion designers feeling the pinch from the credit crisis can look to the growing ranks of China's nouveau riche to boost sales.

China's millionaires' club is expanding rapidly and many new members are women who don't even blink when asked to pay a cool $10,000 (U.S.) for a cocktail dress from a top international designer.

“The Chinese are the newcomers to the global market,” said Sebastian Suhl, Asia-Pacific chief executive of Italian fashion house Prada, which has nine stores in China.

“They're very hungry to learn about fashion. Fashion represents obviously status, but luxury is also a kind of bridge to the modern world for them.”

As the Chinese economy surged more than 10 per cent annually over the past five years, the country boasted 345,000 U.S. dollar millionaires by the end of 2006, a third of whom were women, according to a report by Merrill Lynch and consultancy Capgemini.

Some 5,000 mainland Chinese had assets exceeding $30-million, accounting for a third of Asia-Pacific's super-rich.

Even affluent Chinese women, without millions in the bank, are willing to spend their savings on designer fashions, seen as the ultimate status symbol in a communist country that is increasingly becoming preoccupied with the trappings of wealth.

Elegantly dressed Chinese manager Zhang Ning, 30, has never been to France but she likes to wear Hermes which she says is the epitome of style.

“I like its simplicity, it makes me feel elegant,” said Ms. Zhang, who works as a manager at an electric power company in the southern Chinese city of Guangzhou.

“France for me is elegance: good fashion and wines.”

While luxury goods makers such as Louis Vuitton have benefited from booming demand from Chinese keen to show off their newfound wealth by wearing clothes and accessories emblazoned with prestigious logos, Western couture houses such Hermes are now tapping into the more discreet tastes of the super-rich.

“The mainland Chinese market is still very accessories oriented but we believe that will change,” said Alex Bolen, chief executive of New York-based couture house Oscar de la Renta, whose sleek cocktail dresses retail for up to $10,000, while its evening gowns approach double that.

“There's definitely a market for the cocktail dress. But what has surprised us, pleasantly, is how rapidly the customer has also adopted our daywear.”

Leading the charge is upmarket Hong Kong department store Lane Crawford which is bringing designers to China who are seen as being on the cutting edge in the West but are not well-known in China.

The opening of Lane Crawford's first store in Beijing last October has expanded the China presence of British designers such as Alexander McQueen and Stella McCartney and heralded the arrival of more niche designers including Dries Van Noten, Hussein Chalayan and Rick Owens.

Buyers from Lane Crawford now take prized front-row seats at fashion shows in Paris and Milan, alongside buyers from high-end U.S. retailers Saks and Nieman Marcus.

Meanwhile, Chinese fashion editors, headed by Vogue China, have become an influential presence on the European fashion scene.

China's ongoing transition to a more market-oriented economy after decades of strict communist rule is producing a constant stream of newly rich.

Their purchasing power and the growing sophistication of a more established wealthy clientele is creating a very diverse market for fashion, says Angelica Cheung, editor of Vogue China. The magazine was launched in 2005 and it has 320,000 readers.

“It's very different from the West, there are a lot of entrepreneurial opportunities and there are wealthy people emerging all the time,” said Ms. Cheung.

“A young woman who might now be on a monthly salary of 5,000 yuan ($716 U.S.) could next year be running her own business. So it's a very aspirational market. Her first luxury product might be a Louis Vuitton bag but within a few years she might move on to something more niche such as Marni.”

Chanel is the most preferred high-end fashion brand for affluent Chinese followed by Giorgio Armani, according to a report by MasterCard.

Oscar de la Renta says China is central to a strategy for Asia which it hopes will account for 20 per cent of its sales within five years, up from 5 per cent at present, helped by its burgeoning accessories' business.

Luxury brands can easily sell their perfume and cosmetics in local department stores. But when it comes to ready-to-wear fashion, they are all competing for space and customers in a handful of luxury malls such as Plaza 66 in Shanghai and Lane Crawford in Beijing where rents are sky high.

“They're overpaying (on rent) but they're looking at China as an investment,” said Marcel Braun, Hong Kong-based executive vice-president of Swiss company DKSH, which advises luxury firms on market expansion.

“Fifteen years ago brands came and left. Now they can't do that anymore, China's too important.”

Rampant copying of accessories brands remains a problem for luxury goods firms in China, but it is much less evident among high-end apparel.

Yet nevertheless high-quality copies of designer handbags can be purchased across Beijing and Shanghai for just a pittance of the retail price of the originals.

China's luxury market is still in its infancy and luxury retailers are experimenting to find the right model and get the sales strategy right, analysts say.

Lane Crawford has pieces of modern art on display in its spacious Beijing store, aiming to offer a new concept in shopping. It sells more than 600 high-end fashion brands, but visitors to the store say shoppers are often scarce.

Lane Crawford says its Beijing store is the first stage in a long-term plan for China and other stores will be rolled out in the future.

Retail analysts say that having a flagship store rather than being among dozens of brands carried in a high-class department store is the best way to achieve brand recognition and exclusivity in China.

However, it is difficult and expensive to find good sites for boutiques in China due to exorbitant rentals in high-end areas.

Reaching out beyond Beijing and Shanghai is the next step. The southern boom city of Shenzhen replaced Chengdu in 2007 as the city with the highest average spending on luxury goods, according to Credit Suisse, while the size of the luxury markets in Shenzhen and Wuhan doubled.

Mr. Braun says fast-growing northeastern cities such as Dalian offer better opportunities for expansion than southern cities.

Zhang Ning from Guangzhou heads to Hong Kong to shop at Hermes because there is no sales tax and luxury items are 30 per cent cheaper than on the mainland.

A long-established market for luxury goods, Hong Kong also offers a much wider choice of designers.

Neighbouring Macau, a former Portuguese enclave, is also becoming a shopping hub for affluent mainland Chinese following the arrival of U.S. casino operators in the past few years.

Prada's edgier offshoot Miu Miu earlier this year staged its first fashion show in Asia in Macau, flying in the Crazy Horse cabaret revue from Paris to perform in front of local glitterati at the ritzy Wynn Macau casino resort, which houses Prada and Chanel boutiques in its ground-floor lobby.

“I believe Macau will be comparable to Hong Kong in terms of sales in the next few years,” said Prada's Mr. Suhl.

Miu Miu, which sells at Lane Crawford in Beijing, plans to open its first independent mainland China store in Shenzhen this year. Meanwhile, Hermes is preparing for the opening of a 500-square-metre store in Beijing before the Olympic Games in August.

China sales will help offset a long-term decline in business in Japan, aggravated by its rapidly aging population, it says.

I can't wait until the Chinese catch up to their Hong Kong brothers and sisters and wear English-only labels, show white models everywhere, convert to Christianity, use English words to sound cool, idolize Caucasian-looking people, and so on.

[ZhuBaJie]

I can't wait until the Chinese catch up to their Hong Kong brothers and sisters and wear English-only labels, show white models everywhere, convert to Christianity, use English words to sound cool, idolize Caucasian-looking people, and so on.

and as always, it comes back to no-clue-having Asian Americans telling people in Asia what sellouts they are.

hey, i can't wait till the Chinese catch up to their Asian American brothers and sisters and speak only English, get real uncomfortable when they're around other Asian people, and bitch about how white dudes are stealing their women!

[uRB4N]

and as always, it comes back to no-clue-having Asian Americans telling people in Asia what sellouts they are.

hey, i can't wait till the Chinese catch up to their Asian American brothers and sisters and speak only English, get real uncomfortable when they're around other Asian people, and bitch about how white dudes are stealing their women!

This made me laugh long time.

[awong]

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080529.wchinafashion0529/BNStory/Business/



I can't wait until the Chinese catch up to their Hong Kong brothers and sisters and wear English-only labels, show white models everywhere, convert to Christianity, use English words to sound cool, idolize Caucasian-looking people, and so on.

you are retarded

[SamuraiJack]

and as always, it comes back to no-clue-having Asian Americans telling people in Asia what sellouts they are.

hey, i can't wait till the Chinese catch up to their Asian American brothers and sisters and speak only English, get real uncomfortable when they're around other Asian people, and bitch about how white dudes are stealing their women!

Nice strawman argument. I never said that they were sellouts. What I am saying is how Western culture has invaded Asia to the degree that many people there view almost anything Western as cool.

Do you not think it's screwed up when pop singers in Asia sing in their native language and then break out in accented English?

All I'm saying is that there's a certain adoration of the West in Asia, while the reverse is not the same. Try selling an Asian fashion brand that uses an Asian-sounding name and see how well it does. This Western adoration is not only a problem culturally, but also economically, as it gives Western countries more economic clout in terms of brand names.

By the way, I'm not trying to offend or point the finger only at Asians in Asia - in many ways, I do feel Asians in the West are more screwed up, and Asians in Asia are better adjusted - which is why I'm disappointed because if this is happening in Asia also, what's left for us? I see China as a sort of last bastion where cultural imperialism hasn't taken hold yet.

[SamuraiJack]

Looks like I touched a nerve. awong, instead of throwing insults, do you not see the imbalance in how Asians view the West vs white people viewing the East? Would a brand name in Chinese characters sell well in America? Will we reach a point that top brand names need to be in the Roman alphabet even if they are manufactured in Asia itself?

There are certain Western-centric things Asian countries have to adopt and embrace by necessity: time zones, calendar, time, numbers, programming code, and other standards, but brand names, language, religion, white models should not be part of them.

[ZhuBaJie]

Nice strawman argument. I never said that they were sellouts. What I am saying is how Western culture has invaded Asia to the degree that many people there view almost anything Western as cool.

Do you not think it's screwed up when pop singers in Asia sing in their native language and then break out in accented English?

All I'm saying is that there's a certain adoration of the West in Asia, while the reverse is not the same. Try selling an Asian fashion brand that uses an Asian-sounding name and see how well it does. This Western adoration is not only a problem culturally, but also economically, as it gives Western countries more economic clout in terms of brand names.

you could have actually said this in the first place. that would have saved you some derision.

but i'll give you a hint - "it's the economy, stupid!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_the_economy,_stupid) there's no shortage of people in China/HK/Taiwan thinking Japanese stuff is cool, yes, more so than their counterparts from white countries. things like cartoons, comics, packaged foods, street fashion, electronics, games, etc etc. why? because Japan is a developed economy that produces "cool" products. Europe has cornered the market on high fashion not just in Asia, but all over the world. but it's not about race. it's about marketting strategies and branding. it's about how to do smart business. as for Asian-sounding brand names - ever heard of Jimmy Choo? when girls hear that, they don't think, "that sounds Oriental, that's not cool". they think, "i want a pair of those motherfuckers."

do i think it's screwed up that pop stars sometimes break into accented English? i can't speak for anywhere else, but in HK, people have been mixing in English words since my parents' generation, born in the 1950s. alot of mofos from the West (dumbass Asian Americans included) talk about HK as a cliché "East meets West" kind of place. but to me, it's always been what it is, and it's HK's culture. when HKers throw in a few English words, it's because that's how HKers speak, not because they think it's so damn cool to throw in some English words.

this kind of attitude is the same kind of attitude that says, "oh nooos, people in Asia are dying their hair, they're trying to be white!" it's one big reason why i think so many Asian Americans have their heads up their asses.

[ZhuBaJie]

I see China as a sort of last bastion where cultural imperialism hasn't taken hold yet.

oh jesus. how white-washed can you possibly get? maybe if people in China all start wearing straw hats and treat a hamburger like it's the plague, then you'd think they're "authentic"? seriously, how different is that from some clueless white dude's idea of what Chinese culture and society is? culture isn't static, and there's a difference between westernisation and modernisation. i'm not saying there are no white-worshippers in China or the rest of Asia. but seriously. get a clue.

[SamuraiJack]

I'm not only talking about HK, but Japan and Korea also. I edited my comment above before you posted your message. I remember cringing long ago when I heard Namie Amuro's "Body Feels Exit", like wtf?

I understand that many Asians in America look down on Asians in Asia - I used to be one of them until midway through high school. But now it's the opposite, any criticism of Asia for me is more about the fear that the West will "brainwash" people in Asia as much as they have here.

In many ways, Asia is acting like a model citizen - they are very receptive to different races and cultures. But in doing so, I think they've become the whipping boy for the West. Would it be better for countries in Asia to behave like the West in order to affect change here? Perhaps something like what Quebec is doing in Canada - there are laws banning English language signs because of what many Quebecers rightly feel is the destruction of their culture.

[SamuraiJack]

oh jesus. how white-washed can you possibly get? maybe if people in China all start wearing straw hats and treat a hamburger like it's the plague, then you'd think they're "authentic"? seriously, how different is that from some clueless white dude's idea of what Chinese culture and society is? culture isn't static, and there's a difference between westernisation and modernisation. i'm not saying there are no white-worshippers in China or the rest of Asia. but seriously. get a clue.

I've already mentioned that certain aspects of Western culture are unavoidable - but I think there are some aspects, like language and religion that are critical for the preservation of one's cultural identity and pride.

Where do you draw the line? Do you think Japanese society is a suitable template?

[awong]

Looks like I touched a nerve. awong, instead of throwing insults, do you not see the imbalance in how Asians view the West vs white people viewing the East? Would a brand name in Chinese characters sell well in America? Will we reach a point that top brand names need to be in the Roman alphabet even if they are manufactured in Asia itself?

There are certain Western-centric things Asian countries have to adopt and embrace by necessity: time zones, calendar, time, numbers, programming code, and other standards, but brand names, language, religion, white models should not be part of them.

nope just stating the obvious. btw you still look down at asians and think aa are higher up just pointing out the truth :D

[ktkbs]

but brand names, language, religion, white models should not be part of them.

I'd agree but you should probably start at home.

[nightshade]

Sometimes I feel like I'm getting deju vu when I'm reading threads on this forum. It's either boohoo IR or I hate FOBZ.

For the last fucking time, Asians in Asia are not naive assholes who worship white culture.

Asians don't buy luxury goods to measure up to white people. A hot Asian chick with an LV bag isn't thinking, OMG, do I look like Paris Hilton?

[SamuraiJack]

Why does any criticism of Asians in Asia equate to "I hate FOBZ"? Again, I repeat, it's not a assertion that Asians in America are any better. It's a comment that Asians in Asia should be more immune to the "white is right" mentality commonly held by Asians here.

What does it say when white models are commonly used in Asia where there are very few white people?

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080601/capt.fb41fc6074e948b881bf02e9b5301514.hong_kong_ti ananmen_march__xvy105.jpg

Asians don't buy luxury goods to measure up to white people. A hot Asian chick with an LV bag isn't thinking, OMG, do I look like Paris Hilton?

Talk about setting up a strawman argument. Sorry, I'm not saying they are trying to be white or "Paris Hilton". I'm saying that they view Western brands as more cool or superior than local-sounding brands, even if both products were made in Asia.

And on a more general note, imagine an Asian country where the models are white, the people worship a white god, they speak in a Western language, they manufacture products for European/American brand names, kids play with white barbies and so on. The people born in this country are going to accept as their own culture, as "normal", similar to how Mexicans have adopted Roman Catholicism. The question is, at what point do you think it's wrong?

As well, despite what people say, non-white people around the world *are* trying to look more Caucasian, though not on a conscious level of course. Similar to how Rwandans were made to think that Caucasian-looking Rwandans were superior, "superior" has been now replaced by "attractive".

nope just stating the obvious. btw you still look down at asians and think aa are higher up just pointing out the truth

Prove it. By the way, AAs *are* Asians.

[awong]

Prove it. By the way, AAs *are* Asians.
turn into a fashion designer then and promote your clothing and appearl line as something then and hire models. or why dont you start modelling yourself to make a difference. too fat?

lets also stop japanese influence in asia! they are an evil nation and keep spreading doreamon and their electronics everywhere! seriously there are more important matters to deal with than crap like this like the natural disasters.

btw i dont feel like proving it as its been noticable by your posts. I mean come on, I havent seen any change from you since you started posted. And all you do is complain about the people in asia, why not fix the issues here instead? geez, ah whatever, you are fun to flame :D:D no need to prove anything since its been said a million times little boy

[nightshade]

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080529.wchinafashion0529/BNStory/Business/

I can't wait until the Chinese catch up to their Hong Kong brothers and sisters and wear English-only labels, show white models everywhere, convert to Christianity, use English words to sound cool, idolize Caucasian-looking people, and so on.

If that's not saying that Chinese want to be white, then what are you trying to say? I mean, what is this "idolizing Causasian-looking people"? People in Hong Kong couldn't give a shit.

[Heyyu]

Um, it's no secret the American/Western media has influenced buying habits in Hong Kong, China, Japan, and other parts of Asia. Same with South America and Africa too. Basically the fabulously rich in all the big cities of the world want the latest goods and the latest brand name cause it's a sign of status, to say, "Look at me, I'm not like the lower class plebians." Rather it's the elite class in Hong Kong or Moscow or Mexico City, it's the same shit everywhere. I see it as more of a class division than a racial issue.

[RebelAzn]

Man why does every kind of discussion ended up how we are relative to white people? Why does it matter? Has anyone ever thought that people buy certain brand because its perceived "social" value? It is the way rich tries to separate from the poor. Western stuff is in cause some western countries are considered "rich". Do you honest think a Russian made shoe with no Hollywood celebrity endorsement gonna sell in China?

Many women are fashion drones. I can't ever understand why women would spend $1500 on a purse when I can get a top laptop for the same, but they do. How about those $500 pair of shoes? There are plenty of Asians that want all the latest fashion brands and they could CARELESS about being white or whatever. Why are western stuff in fashion right now? Cause they are perceived as brands of the rich and people want to be rich in capitalist societies. China is becoming that way so their consumption patterns are not surprising at all since people are getting more rich every day.

Saying people in USA don't appreciate Asian brand is just plain stupid. Ever heard of Sony? They were the favorite brand of Americans just a year or two ago? How about Wii? How about Toyota? Honda? Lexus? How about Jimmy Choo? Vera Wang? Seriously, if you get some celebrities to wear anything, it will be famous in no time. White people are no different. Some white people are drones to following the latest trends too whether it is Jimmy Choo or Gucci.

Oh yeah, I have to agree some Asian Americans are pretty fucked up mentally comparing to Asians in Asia. People in Asia don't have identity crisis like Asian Americans. While some Asian Americans think of things in relative to white people, most Asians in Asia could careless. Some people just like expensive brands to look certain way regardless as long as it is from some designer. Chinese still has a long way in building some of their brands, but it will come once these companies grow like mad.

[nightshade]

Haha, Jimmy Choo is actually owned and run by a white woman.

[SamuraiJack]

If that's not saying that Chinese want to be white, then what are you trying to say? I mean, what is this "idolizing Causasian-looking people"? People in Hong Kong couldn't give a shit.

No, it's saying that they've internalized the white beauty standard. Much like how black people seem to think straight hair is more beautiful, brown bollywood actresses are more pale than the average Indian citizen - Asian people have accepted that larger eyes, brown/blond hair, higher nose bridge, etc... are more attractive.

Also, is it possible to criticize Asia and not be labeled a "FOBZ" hater? I can say that I don't like how Native Americans have lost their language, their ethnic names, their religion, and so on without hating them, can't I?

What I'm opposing is the cultural imperialism that has taken place in South Korea, Japan and HK is now taking place in China.

RebelAzn, you may be right that Americans would be willing to accept Asian brands, but I don't think I'll live long enough to see Americans adopting a Chinese fashion name brand, say something like "Lian Jie", as being "cool". If anything, I see the Japanese method of using a Western-sounding name to increase the appeal not only internationally, but locally as well.

[SamuraiJack]

btw i dont feel like proving it as its been noticable by your posts. I mean come on, I havent seen any change from you since you started posted. And all you do is complain about the people in asia, why not fix the issues here instead? geez, ah whatever, you are fun to flame :D:D no need to prove anything since its been said a million times little boy

translation: I don't need to prove anything because I can't.

....along with some childish ad hominem attacks.

If you don't have anything useful to say, don't be a bitch about it.

[Scowl]

No, it's saying that they've internalized the white beauty standard. Much like how black people seem to think straight hair is more beautiful, brown bollywood actresses are more pale than the average Indian citizen - Asian people have accepted that larger eyes, brown/blond hair, higher nose bridge, etc... are more attractive.

I think there are some misconceptions at play here that are important to identify, because this argument comes up all the time about how Asians have accepted the white beauty standard and feel that their natural Asian features are inferior.

First off, I find that a lot of people arguing that have themselves internalized white definitions of what Asians are supposed to look like. For example, there are people who are perplexed at how Asian models in Asia look white and Asian models in Europe/America look more Asian. That one is simple - that's because they are judging Asian beauty by white standards. White standards are an exotification; white people want to see the super slanted eyes, black hair, kimonos and the chopsticks in the hair. To them, that is what's beautiful when it comes to Asians because that is what fits in the most with their limited worldview of Asian peoples.

In short, it's not that Asian models and celebrities in Asia look white - it's that you (generally speaking, not necessarily you personally) think they look white.

Case in point - ever notice how dudes with yellow fever tend to want natural black hair and other "natural Asian" traits? They don't want counterfeit whites, they want a taste of the orient.

Other things are pretty much universal or at least very common throughout much of the world. The light skin thing has been adequately explained a hundred times over. Asians prized light skin before they ever laid eyes on white people. Big eyes are considered attractive everywhere. And so on. Some features are just considered attractive and desirable by everyone; however, some people associate those features with white people (which is already a red flag for internalized racism right there) and have therefore given white people ownership over beauty. How fucked up is that?

I've heard people say that Jackie Chan and Lucy Liu are beautiful, and that only brainwashed people think otherwise. No, they are just ugly. Only non-Asians think they look good! Again, beauty has been associated with white people, so in an attempt to rebel against whitey, people also end up rebelling against good looks.

The other argument is that native Asian celebrities are not representative of the majority of the population. However, this is true of all celebrities who rely on their looks for their professions. I mean, part of the definition of beauty is its rarity. The vast majority of people in the world range from average to ugly in terms of looks, of course anyone who is considered beautiful is not going to look like everyone else. How many white American dudes look like Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise or whoever?

And, of course, the most condscending thing about all this is the assumption that everything has to revolve around white people.

[SamuraiJack]

Nice post Scowl, however, there are some points of contention.


First off, I find that a lot of people arguing that have themselves internalized white definitions of what Asians are supposed to look like. For example, there are people who are perplexed at how Asian models in Asia look white and Asian models in Europe/America look more Asian. That one is simple - that's because they are judging Asian beauty by white standards. White standards are an exotification; white people want to see the super slanted eyes, black hair, kimonos and the chopsticks in the hair. To them, that is what's beautiful when it comes to Asians because that is what fits in the most with their limited worldview of Asian peoples.

In short, it's not that Asian models and celebrities in Asia look white - it's that you (generally speaking, not necessarily you personally) think they look white.


I'll agree with the exotification by white standards, but I'll stand by that there is at least *some* leaning towards white standards in Asian countries, and in the rest of the world.

Can you say that curly hair on an African American female is less attractive than straight hair? If not, then do you think the same thing can happen for Asians as well?

Many white people think that Asian people "look the same" - and while we lack difference in hair or eye colour, we make up for it by differences in skin tone, facial structure, eye shape, and perhaps other things as well. My argument is that, while some Asians do look like the those movie stars, there's a smaller percentage that do.

This may be impossible to prove. Perhaps the only way to prove my theory is to sample groups of Asians who have never come in contact with the media (Asian or otherwise), and test their perception of who is attractive or not - and compare it to those in the mainstream population.

It is a fact that perception of attractiveness can be altered - that's why 200 years ago, fuller women were considered more attractive, that's why people with long necks in some remote villages are considered attractive. I think the standard of attractiveness in Asia (and the rest of the world) has been distorted to become more aligned with white standards - my guess is that Asians 100 years ago had a different standard of what makes someone attractive compared to Asians today.


Other things are pretty much universal or at least very common throughout much of the world. The light skin thing has been adequately explained a hundred times over. Asians prized light skin before they ever laid eyes on white people. Big eyes are considered attractive everywhere. And so on. Some features are just considered attractive and desirable by everyone; however, some people associate those features with white people (which is already a red flag for internalized racism right there) and have therefore given white people ownership over beauty. How fucked up is that?

I've heard the same arguments made over and over again, and individually, they make sense. But taken as a whole, the standards seem to gravitate towards features that white people have. If light skin is a universal standard, then would black people be inherently less attractive? Is African hair less attractive? Is black hair less attractive? Would Koreans, on average, have less attractive eyes than a Filipino person? Are bigger noses better? - why would Indian noses be considered "too big", while white people's noses are "just about right" - it seems that "just about right" is often conveniently associated with white standards. It seems that every non-white racial group has identified being attractive with having the most "white" features, while still retaining the racial identity. And by saying "white" features, I am by no means saying white people own them, I'd probably choose different words if I spoke off this forum.

I've heard people say that Jackie Chan and Lucy Liu are beautiful, and that only brainwashed people think otherwise. No, they are just ugly. Only non-Asians think they look good! Again, beauty has been associated with white people, so in an attempt to rebel against whitey, people also end up rebelling against good looks.

No disagreement here. They're ugly.

The other argument is that native Asian celebrities are not representative of the majority of the population. However, this is true of all celebrities who rely on their looks for their professions. I mean, part of the definition of beauty is its rarity. The vast majority of people in the world range from average to ugly in terms of looks, of course anyone who is considered beautiful is not going to look like everyone else. How many white American dudes look like Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise or whoever?


I suppose this can't be proven either, unless we do a statistical analysis of a random sample of white people and analyze their faces and the differences between their movie stars - and do a random sample of Asian people and do a statistical comparison of their differences to Asian movie stars. My feeling is that Asian people would have a greater deviation with their stars than white people have with their stars.

And, of course, the most condscending thing about all this is the assumption that everything has to revolve around white people.

The problem is that if you mention white people, people assume that everything revolves around white people, while it's very difficult to have a discussion on racism or cultural imperialism without bringing white people into it.

[awong]

I've heard the same arguments made over and over again, and individually, they make sense. But taken as a whole, the standards seem to gravitate towards features that white people have. If light skin is a universal standard, then would black people be inherently less attractive? Is African hair less attractive? Is black hair less attractive? Would Koreans, on average, have less attractive eyes than a Filipino person? Are bigger noses better? - why would Indian noses be considered "too big", while white people's noses are "just about right" - it seems that "just about right" is often conveniently associated with white standards. It seems that every non-white racial group has identified being attractive with having the most "white" features, while still retaining the racial identity. And by saying "white" features, I am by no means saying white people own them, I'd probably choose different words if I spoke off this forum.



white people have ugly high nose bridges and too much pointiness or weird noses. Have you seen that nose that tom cruise has, well duh, its ugly with a high bridge looks like a bird. Other than daniel wu's bird beak nose, asians have it just right.
RebelAzn, you may be right that Americans would be willing to accept Asian brands, but I don't think I'll live long enough to see Americans adopting a Chinese fashion name brand, say something like "Lian Jie", as being "cool". If anything, I see the Japanese method of using a Western-sounding name to increase the appeal not only internationally, but locally as well.
owning a toyota or honda is still cool to own especially with hybrids and gas efficient and those are as japanese as you can get. Same with japanese motorbikes japanese names and popular. I can see a chinese product being popular remember all it takes is one big instant hit and it can be an icon.

translation: I don't need to prove anything because I can't.

....along with some childish ad hominem attacks.

If you don't have anything useful to say, don't be a bitch about it.
its been said before and its beating a dead horse talking to you mr jack, I like my childish attacks at you its fun wasting my time at it too, and are you doing your part? buy only asian brands not not buy euro/american products? do your part and support counterfeit goods then

[RebelAzn]

Let's see, all the pics below are people with:

1) white skin
2) Big nose
3) Big eyes

By the definition above, these people are automatic beautiful right? Now, are these people beautiful? Now when people in China and S. Korea go to plastic surgeons and ask them to make them beautiful, they usually bring pictures of Asian celebrities with them. I doubt any Asian would be stupid enough (perhaps some really white washed ones in the USA) would think plastic surgeries would make them look white. It is ridiculous to think white people have patents on what's beautiful. Have you guys walk around sometimes? Some white people are ugly as sin.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i135/mspjunkie/ugly-men.jpg
http://www.liberalstreetfighter.com/ee/images/uploads/doc4505af118ca02448144693_thumb.jpg
http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/data/media/1/691.jpg
http://insearchoftheweird.com/photos/ugly14nk.jpg

[King4aDay]

Now, are these people beautiful?

The guy in the green shirt is kinda hot.

[RebelAzn]

The guy in the green shirt is kinda hot.


I had a feeling he is your type :)

[King4aDay]

I had a feeling he is your type :)

it's the big eyes that did it.
http://www.breaktaker.com/albums/pictures/kids/CrazyMeanBaby.jpg

[Heyyu]

Ok, now people are just getting silly here. Let's be honest now: the White Standard of Beauty has AFFECTED Asia, just as it has affected the rest of the world.

Lighter skin does tend to be highly prized (although the "tanned" look has also been popular), but the other features are definitely a result of the influence of the American/European media. I think it goes back to the tribal roots of mankind: people always looked up and adopted the features of the strongest tribe, even if they had huge-ass noses. For the past 400 years, the Western countries have dominated and molded this world in their image. However, the pendulum is swinging back towards Asia as the epicenter of the world, so it's going to be interesting to see what will happen in the future...

[King4aDay]

[QUOTEFor the past 400 years, the Western countries have dominated and molded this world in their image. However, the pendulum is swinging back towards Asia as the epicenter of the world, so it's going to be interesting to see what will happen in the future...[/QUOTE]

Single eyelid surgeries?

[RebelAzn]

[QUOTEFor the past 400 years, the Western countries have dominated and molded this world in their image. However, the pendulum is swinging back towards Asia as the epicenter of the world, so it's going to be interesting to see what will happen in the future...

Single eyelid surgeries?[/QUOTE]

Haha.. I hope you do realize many Asians with single eyelid get surgeries to look like the other Asians with double eyelid. I think there are 50% Asians with double eyelids. I don't think they are trying to make their eyes look white cause it would be ugly as hell on Asians.

Yes in the future, you gonna end up watching Chinese movies 24x7 instead of white I mean Hollywood movies. Get ready for it.

In fact, some white guy (David Wingrove) actually wrote a whole series of novel on how China gonna control the world in the future. I am sure it is full of stereotypes but it is an interest theory. Below is a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Chung-Kuo-Kingdom-David-Wingrove/dp/0440613868/ref=pd_sim_b_6

[King4aDay]

Haha.. I hope you do realize many Asians with single eyelid get surgeries to look like the other Asians with double eyelid. I think there are 50% Asians with double eyelids. I don't think they are trying to make their eyes look white cause it would be ugly as hell on Asians.

Yes in the future, you gonna end up watching Chinese movies 24x7 instead of white I mean Hollywood movies. Get ready for it.

In fact, some white guy (David Wingrove) actually wrote a whole series of novel on how China gonna control the world in the future. I am sure it is full of stereotypes but it is an interest theory. Below is a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Chung-Kuo-Kingdom-David-Wingrove/dp/0440613868/ref=pd_sim_b_6

Well, if recall my history correctly, China and Africa have long enjoyed close relations. I'm not worried :D

http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/ziliao/3602/3604/t18059.htm

Thanks for he book recommendation.

[RebelAzn]

Well, if recall my history correctly, China and Africa have long enjoyed close relations. I'm not worried :D

http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/ziliao/3602/3604/t18059.htm

Thanks for he book recommendation.

Yep. China and Africa are getting closer in relations and that is scaring the crap out of the west.

Here is a bit on the Chinese explorer Zheng He: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

Here is a quote from the wikipedia: Between 1405 and 1433, the Ming government sponsored a series of seven naval expeditions. Emperor Yongle designed them to establish a Chinese presence, impose imperial control over trade, and impress foreign peoples in the Indian Ocean basin. He also might have wanted to extend the tributary system, by which Chinese dynasties traditionally recognized foreign peoples.

Zheng He was placed as the admiral in control of the huge fleet and armed forces that undertook these expeditions. Zheng He's first voyage consisted of a fleet of perhaps 300 ships[6] (other sources say 200)[7] holding almost 28,000 crewmen. These were probably mainly large six-masted ships - it is now thought that the large and flat nine-masted "treasure ships" were probably river ships used by the Emperor.[8]


One of a set of maps of Zheng He's missions (郑和航海图), also known as the Mao Kun maps, 1628.On the first three voyages, Zheng He visited southeast Asia, India, and Ceylon (today known as Sri Lanka). The fourth expedition went to the Persian Gulf and Arabia, and later expeditions ventured down the east African coast, as far as Malindi in what is now Kenya. Unspecified officials have reportedly endorsed the theory, so far unproven, that one of Zheng He's ships foundered on the rocks near Lamu island, off the coast of today's Kenya, with survivors swimming ashore, marrying locals and creating a family of Chinese-Africans that is now being reunited with the Chinese motherland [9].

I happen to caught a video on him on PBS. Even today there are people in Africa claiming Chinese descendent.

Also here is another book no one in USA would want you to read: http://www.1421.tv/

There is a theory that Chinese might have discovered America before Europeans. Now that would throw all the USA history off completely.

[minbo]

Meh, the future is gonna be a Snow-Crash dystopian. Since the Reformation in Europe and the fall of the imperialist empires, social, religious cultures have been fragmenting at increasingly higher rates and old ethnic/clan/tribe identities have been in ascendence. A world where National governments exert less authority, turning into tax parasites that exist only to provide a nominal legal framework in which the true authorities rule. Inteligence services, and national militaries will function only protect their tax racket from other geographical regions, havens for the dwindling nationalists. The new world order will be corporations, neo-anarchists / micro floating collectives like the Seasteaders, city states like Shanghai and various socio-cultural-religious groups, like the Tongs, the Mafia, Yamaguchi-Gumi/LDP (like Genoshya and Kokuryu-kai), Gnomes of Zurich, Masons, KKK, Bloods, Crips, Faulun Gong, Sokku Gokkai, Hells Angels, LDS, the Warriors, Baseball Furies, Trekkies, Vickies, etc. Certainly facists, warlords and military juntas will carve out nation states ruled by force, but the only "nations" will be those who can forge a nationality based upon a different social awareness (usually an identity in opposition of something else), like Palestein and Israel.

As for the Chinese explorations, I think that it is very plausible and probable that the Chinese exploration fleets reached the East Coast of Africa and even that they followed it down to Antartica. I am less convinced about them rounding the cape and explored the West Coast of Africa and even far less convinced that explored the European coastline or the East Coast of the Americas. I think it very reasonable and probable that they reached the West Coast of the Americas. Much like the Americas was known to Europe before Columbus (not only the Vikings, but North America had been sighted and was common knowledge by fishermen of the North Atlantic before Columbus), I think that fishermen in the North Pacific would certainly have sighted and to some degree have known about North America as well. There are recorded instances where Japanese fishermen have been blown to the West Coast of America by storms and not able to return (when Japan was still closed, ie before gunboat Perry).

[Scowl]

Ok, now people are just getting silly here. Let's be honest now: the White Standard of Beauty has AFFECTED Asia, just as it has affected the rest of the world.

And who said that Asia hasn't been affected? No one has said that, and no one ever says that. Nobody denies that white worship exists in Asia.

However, I get the idea that the people hating on native Asians for being white worshippers always have this "all or nothing" view. Either they are all self-hating sellouts (okay, no one says all, but it's pretty obvious that you guys see it as an overwhelming majority) or none of them are, and since it isn't possible that none of them are (because of white people on commercial billboards), all of them must be.

And even then, there are huge problems with they way that such white worship is criticized, because more often than not it's done in an incredibly condescending and demeaning manner. Frankly, I think a lot of AAs hate on native Asians and FOBs as another way to hate ourselves and our heritage.

[RebelAzn]

I have studied advertising. For the most part, it is about making that mental emotional connection with the viewer to invoke some feeling of association. For quite a few years, American products were considered better quality. Advertisers use white people with their products to show that these products have heavy western influence. They hope people make that connection so they will buy the products because of perceived better quality. It is a total different take to people who think using white people in ads is automatic white worshipping.

Asian products are getting better and better each year. Things might change for the future. BTW, I have met quite a few native Asians or "FOBs" and I don't detect this white worshipping shit people here keep talking about here. It is the quite opposite. Most of them are quite proud of their culture. I have no doubt it exists with some segment of the population but painting all native Asians this way is ridiculous. I do agree with Scowl that most people that do that usually have some problems with their own identity.

[King4aDay]

Yep. China and Africa are getting closer in relations and that is scaring the crap out of the west.

Here is a bit on the Chinese explorer Zheng He: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

Here is a quote from the wikipedia:

I happen to caught a video on him on PBS. Even today there are people in Africa claiming Chinese descendent.

Also here is another book no one in USA would want you to read: http://www.1421.tv/

There is a theory that Chinese might have discovered America before Europeans. Now that would throw all the USA history off completely.

Thanks, you're chock full of good information, Rebel. You're also redistributing all of my meager wealth to Amazon.com

[aznbutterfly123]

Asians have double eyelids also, including myself.

[King4aDay]

Asians have double eyelids also, including myself.

Yes, I know. :) I was referring to the phenomenon, not to all Asians, or to you in particular.

[zhangfei]

http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/ziliao/3602/3604/t18059.htm

.



After its completion , the Tanzania-Zambia railway has become a major truck line of communication linking the two countries. It smashed the blockade by the then racist regime of South Africa and provided Zambia with a new and reliable route to the sea, thereby ensuring the major source of its income.

http://chinaembassy.org.nz/eng/ziliao/3602/3604/t18009.htm

I didn't learn about that until last year. Someone made a documentary about it interviewing the engineers and others who worked on the project back in the 60s and early 70s. It was amazing to hear their stories and how they overcame all forms of adversity . e.g. one of the surveyors said they actually got shot at by white farmers.

[King4aDay]

After its completion , the Tanzania-Zambia railway has become a major truck line of communication linking the two countries. It smashed the blockade by the then racist regime of South Africa and provided Zambia with a new and reliable route to the sea, thereby ensuring the major source of its income.

http://chinaembassy.org.nz/eng/ziliao/3602/3604/t18009.htm

I didn't learn about that until last year. Someone made a documentary about it interviewing the engineers and others who worked on the project back in the 60s and early 70s. It was amazing to hear their stories and how they overcame all forms of adversity . e.g. one of the surveyors said they actually got shot at by white farmers.

Wow, thanks! This is GREAT info!!! It's worth being a member here just for the all the great information I get from the other posters. Thanks again.

[ktkbs]

The new world order will be corporations, neo-anarchists

I think that's too pessimistic.