An Apology to the 44 and to "Crazy Asian" Men in General

[King4aDay]

My first post and on the wrong foot already.

To be perfectly frank, I discovered this site though a link from another site that described you all as "crazy Asians." And since, as a rule, I am all for "crazy Asians" I clicked the link. I spent a few days reading articles and posts here. One thread in particular captured my attention, the now legendary discussion on Asian men dating Black women. As an aside, I have to say that this was, bar none, the most impressive thread that I have ever read on the internet. If they handed out Pulitzers for forum threads, the 44 would now possess one. But now, on to my apology.

I'm the other AA (African American) and male. I disclose this only to lend perspective to what follows. As I read your posts and articles I found myself rather bothered by the idea being set forth that Asian men are somehow being stereotyped by society. To be clear, I simply didn't believe you.

I've grown up and have lived in the Los Angeles area most of my life. My high school had a sizable Asian population, and I and the other Black guys on campus all had Asians as friends. (We Blacks were the smallest racial minority at this particular high school). In my high school experience, Asians seemed to be pretty mainstream---accepted by Whites, liked, by an large, by the faculty, and voted in as student body officers. In fact, Asians seemed to be the only race of people on earth that Whites thought might even be smarter than they were. (which admittedly caused some problems of it's own)

But nevertheless, all throughout my high school years, and on through college, I never got the impression that Asian men were feminized in the least, or ever perceived as anything less than the norm. That was an opinion, of course, from the outside looking in. And so, I rejected outright all your articles and posts that tried to make that point as "oversensitive" and "overreaching."

However, I still found myself very troubled by the idea. I can't be sure why. I work in downtown Los Angeles and began looking at Asian guys furtively out of the corner of my eye. None of them seemed to be particularly feminine to me. I decided that perhaps the 44 were crazy after all. But I was still somehow haunted by the posts I read, they made me feel... well, angry at the injustice of it, but then after all, I reasoned, they couldn't really be true.

So one evening, I got a phone call from a female friend who was having trouble with her computer. I'm the only Mac guy she knows, so she always calls me to fix it. I drove over and we chatted a while as I sorted through her error messages. Then something occurred to me. I turned to her and said, "I want to ask you a question. Asian guys... yes or no?" She gave me the "thinking look" for a moment which then slipped into her rejection face. "No" she said. I was a little surprised, so I asked, "O.K., but can you tell me why?" She gave me the "thinking look" for a few more seconds and then went on to say, "Asian guys just aren't masculine enough for me." I was absolutely in shock! I asked a few follow-up questions and every answer she gave sounded like it came directly from one of the 44 posts. I drove home that night with the car radio turned off so I could think about what she had just said.

The computer girl happened to be Black, but in the days that followed, I posed the same question to a White female friend (who admitted to her selection preferences very reluctantly and with many caveats) and a Latina, who was a bit more frank about it. Both pretty much wouldn't absolutely rule out a relationship with an Asian guy, but both made it clear that it wasn't their preference. They both cited the masculinity thing. I chickened out on asking any Asian girls. Nevertheless, I now believe (anecdotal as my evidence is) that I was quite wrong to have doubted the observations of stereotyping espoused on this site. I am very sorry, it was foolish and arrogant of me and I'm a bit ashamed of myself. I should have reserved any judgement at the very least until AFTER I had done a little amateur research.

I must admit, that I now feel a certain kinship between AAM (Asian-America Men) and the other AAM (African-Amercan Men). I feel that we are flipsides of the the same stereotypical coin. Black guys are stereotyped as being over-aggressive brutes/Asian guys are stereotyped an being under-aggressive whimps. Black guys as undereducated dopes/Asian guys as overeducated eggheads. Black guys as ALL good at sports/Asian guys as ALL sucking at sports (except ping pong!). Black guys as all having large horse penises/Asian guys as all have small penises. Black guys are all relatively poor/Asian guys all relatively prosperous.

It's like we're the positive and negative of the same distorted photograph. It marginalizes both of us.

Again, my apologies for a closed mind,

King4aDay

[ZhuBaJie]

funny thing is, i think for a lot of non-black girls, even if they wouldn't date black guys, they wouldn't admit to it because they don't want to sound racist. but it's OK to say they don't want Asian guys because discriminating against Asians is not as taboo as discriminating against blacks.

[King4aDay]

funny thing is, i think for a lot of non-black girls, even if they wouldn't date black guys, they wouldn't admit to it because they don't want to sound racist. but it's OK to say they don't want Asian guys because discriminating against Asians is not as taboo as discriminating against blacks.

No, they just say it more carefully.

"White Female seeking Wht, Asn., Hisp. guys :-)"

[ZhuBaJie]

I must admit, that I now feel a certain kinship between AAM (Asian-America Men) and the other AAM (African-Amercan Men). I feel that we are flipsides of the the same stereotypical coin. Black guys are stereotyped as being over-aggressive brutes/Asian guys are stereotyped an being under-aggressive whimps. Black guys as undereducated dopes/Asian guys as overeducated eggheads. Black guys as ALL good at sports/Asian guys as ALL sucking at sports (except ping pong!). Black guys as all having large horse penises/Asian guys as all have small penises. Black guys are all relatively poor/Asian guys all relatively prosperous.

It's like we're the positive and negative of the same distorted photograph. It marginalizes both of us.

i wanted to add that this is a great observation. the problem with a lot of "angry Asian men" is that they don't seem to realise that it can also apply to Asian male/female stereotypical portrayals, in that Asian women are hypersexualised and Asian men are asexualized. in the end, all stereotypes seek to do the same thing - to dehumanise and reduce. the "angry Asian men", or as i'd like to call them, Whiny Asian Boys, seem to think that Asian women being hypersexualised makes Asian women privileged in white society. but just because you can get a date easier, doesn't mean all your relationships are healthy. and it certainly doesn't give you more economic or social power.

[King4aDay]

Asian women are hypersexualised and Asian men are asexualized.

Honestly, I don't even get why these labels stick. I have seen evidence of neither. The power of a stereotype is that the generalization is based on an oversimplified, but observable truth. Where is the truth in either of those notions?

[Apollyon]

If a lie is told enough times, people begin to believe it. Then what happens is that they go out and deliberately seek evidence that backs up their preconceived notions while discarding contradictions. It doesn't help that these stereotypes are being propagated within and by popular culture which unfortunately serves as a primary source of education for the more ignorant. It is like a running joke that everybody wants to keep alive for the purposes of both entertainment and political expediency.

[King4aDay]

If a lie is told enough times, people begin to believe it.

I see your point.

All evidence to the contrary is seen as an exception to the rule.

But at what point does a person realize that they have witnessed so many exceptions to the rule that the rule itself must be discarded? Stereotypes do die, so what in your opinion would murder this one?

[Apollyon]

I think what it would take would be for the massive media propaganda machine to first cease propagating falsehoods, and then to counter them by spreading the truth. When you control sources of information, you control minds.

[etain]

No, they just say it more carefully.

"White Female seeking Wht, Asn., Hisp. guys :-)"

I think the fact that people say it more carefully, or tiptoe around it, is in indication that it is more taboo.

I remember in college I was eating breakfast with some friends next a group of girls. The girl sitting right next to me openly and loudly blurted out, "I don't date Asian guys, I just don't like them." No one batted an eyelash. It was like she said she didn't like broccoli.

I don't think she would dare say that she didn't like black guys if I was black and sitting next to her.

[King4aDay]

I remember in college I was eating breakfast with some friends next a group of girls. The girl sitting right next to me openly and loudly blurted out, "I don't date Asian guys, I just don't like them." No one batted an eyelash. It was like she said she didn't like broccoli.

I don't think she would dare say that she didn't like black guys if I was black and sitting next to her.

Sorry, that was a rather insane thing for her to say.

And you're probably right, but that's only because she more than likely had already bought into the stereotype that black guys (and girls) are more prone to resort to violence in such cases.

But then again, people used to say that kind of thing about blacks all the time and much worse things. In fact, the societal taboo against dating black men was once so strong that the usual prescription was either the killing of or seriously injury of any black man suspected of even casually initiating such a relationship.

However, times do change, society changes. Slowly, imperfectly, unfairly, but change nonetheless.

[King4aDay]

I think what it would take would be for the massive media propaganda machine to first cease propagating falsehoods, and then to counter them by spreading the truth. When you control sources of information, you control minds.

But what if you had to spread the truth somehow, even BEFORE the media ceased propagating falsehoods? Do you think it could be done?

[Apollyon]

I think this may be possible if people ceased being mass media slaves and consuming popular culture. They would have to learn to take the initiative to educate themselves and exhibit independent thought rather than being spoonfed or more like forcefed what to believe. The problem is that the majority of people have little incentive to do so since they are happy with their bread and circuses and would not take very kindly to having their fundamental belief systems turned topsy turvy.

The only way to counter the prevailing social attitudes I believe is to actively propagate opposing cultural memes whenever possible and never let anything slide. Every objectionable instance of racism needs to be called out and dealt with in the appropriate manner.

I believe Asian America has gotten itself into the current situation by accepting the model minority stereotype and not standing up for itself which rightly earns the contempt and disrespect such an attitude deserves.

[lillain]

I personally agree with your previous views. Where I am from, asians that speak english even those who do with a heavy accent, are basically treated like whites, again where I am from.

I don't see this "asian guys being portrayed as less then men" I grew up watching Asian men like Bruce lee, Jet lee, Jackie chan. They seem to be able to protect their women ('.'). But honestly is being thought of as

crazy smart
financially stable
knowing martial arts a good kind of dangerous

really that bad compared to being seen as

dumb
poor
being violent not a good dangerous

so you get slapped with a small penis rep if you don't have one then you will enlighten some girl/guy I'm sure.

I don't know any race who would be telling the truth if they said they would trade races with a black person. Not even the most "black" white person. Why? Because blacks are the most hated and seen as less the human in many many many peoples eyes even Africans look down at us.

Every one is stereotyped though so I don't really feel bad for Asian men, Women, Whites, Blacks, etc... More times then not the same people crying, whining about being stereotyped themselves either most likely do fall under some stereotype and are indenial about it. Or They stereotype the heck out of other races.

Like How many of these asian guys whining about being stereotyped actual see pass stereotypes about black women enough to give them a chance?

I don't see how any one can honestly not understand how stereotypes are believed. When they themselves are just as ignorant against another race, or subculture. Not always having to deal with ones skin or ethinic background.

If you can't be open minded enough to see past ignorance how can you ever expect someone else to.

Of course its just as easy as just mingling with said race or subculture but its not really in human nature to try and prove ourselves wrong. Pride or something?

Just look at the other posts. Where most Asians will tell you Black? Black out of the question to bring home.

I think with FOB Asian men a lot of the problem is probably the way they were raised. I just got out of an Abusive relationship with a tawainese guy. His family was just as awful. I've honestly never had to deal with such rude disrespectful people. It could be more cultural differences. He definitely was not rasied to think of women on the same level as him. His brother on the other hand was raised majority here and he does know how to treat women. Well the ones hes dating or interested in, any way. So it may not all have to do with stereotypes for all women sometimes it may have to do with the guys and how they act themselves. I know my boyfriend couldn't get over the fact that my IQ is higher then his. Who even seriously ask someone that question any way? He even told his brother my IQ like its that amazing, or hard to believe.

On another forum there is this Japanese Guy always complaining about the women in New York not feelin him. He uses the excuse that he is Japanese and in Japan the respectable men don't approach women. Well its New York in America things are done differently. Hes not willing to adapt he loses the game.

Yeah to sum it up. You shouldn't really apologize. I'm sure many on here have been guilty of the same thing. You are a black male. Why would you know what an Asian male goes through? My ex was so closed minded to think blacks don't face serious racism. It's only because as an asian male why would he pay attention to what happens to black females. He said I was paranoid when I said I usually get watched in stores. I'm like well asian men aren't stereotyped as being theives so why would you feel eyes on you. Or get weird looks in stores.

[RebelAzn]

But what if you had to spread the truth somehow, even BEFORE the media ceased propagating falsehoods? Do you think it could be done?

I think before the Internet, the media is pretty much brainwashing the masses with movies, Hollywood and many others. Imagine if you are an Asian kid, a white kid or a black kid living in an area where there is no Asians, can you imagine what kind of image you have of Asians if all you know about Asians are from TV? It is not like schools teach kids about Asian cultures or anything. I remember all I learned from my Jr. High school and High School about Chinese Americans was like half page long.

The image for black men changed with constant bombardment of most positive images in sports and movies. Some black men like Will Smith and Denzel are accepted as leading men material now and not some stereotypes. without those guys, I am sure black men will be still be criminals and gang bangers on TV.

Unfortunately for Asian men, we definitely lack those leading men in the media. It is not because they don't exist, it is because the current racist Hollywood won't allow it to happen. Will it change in the future, I hope it would but I am not holding my breath. America is supposed to be about equality but it is still far from that. Unfortunately for people of color and not just Asian Americans, most of us are still stereotyped.

Notice all the stereotypes try to point to white people as the "normal" ones while everyone else is either on one side of coin or the other.

With things like Youtube etc, everyone finally has a voice. You can see many people are speaking out against all these stereotypes and injustices. Hopefully, the younger generation won't be so ignorant like the previous one. Information are on sites like this one and many others. If you bother to take the time to educate yourself, you will eventually see the truth. When enough people see and understand the truth, there will be revolt if things continue to stay unfair and ugly. Asian Americans and all people of color need to speak up much more than just stay silent.

[kimtae]

I personally agree with your previous views. Where I am from, asians that speak english even those who do with a heavy accent, are basically treated like whites, again where I am from.

I don't see this "asian guys being portrayed as less then men" I grew up watching Asian men like Bruce lee, Jet lee, Jackie chan. They seem to be able to protect their women ('.'). But honestly is being thought of as

crazy smart
financially stable
knowing martial arts a good kind of dangerous

really that bad compared to being seen as

dumb
poor
being violent not a good dangerous

so you get slapped with a small penis rep if you don't have one then you will enlighten some girl/guy I'm sure.

I don't know any race who would be telling the truth if they said they would trade races with a black person. Not even the most "black" white person. Why? Because blacks are the most hated and seen as less the human in many many many peoples eyes even Africans look down at us.

Every one is stereotyped though so I don't really feel bad for Asian men, Women, Whites, Blacks, etc... More times then not the same people crying, whining about being stereotyped themselves either most likely do fall under some stereotype and are indenial about it. Or They stereotype the heck out of other races.

Like How many of these asian guys whining about being stereotyped actual see pass stereotypes about black women enough to give them a chance?

I don't see how any one can honestly not understand how stereotypes are believed. When they themselves are just as ignorant against another race, or subculture. Not always having to deal with ones skin or ethinic background.

If you can't be open minded enough to see past ignorance how can you ever expect someone else to.

Of course its just as easy as just mingling with said race or subculture but its not really in human nature to try and prove ourselves wrong. Pride or something?

Just look at the other posts. Where most Asians will tell you Black? Black out of the question to bring home.

I think with FOB Asian men a lot of the problem is probably the way they were raised. I just got out of an Abusive relationship with a tawainese guy. His family was just as awful. I've honestly never had to deal with such rude disrespectful people. It could be more cultural differences. He definitely was not rasied to think of women on the same level as him. His brother on the other hand was raised majority here and he does know how to treat women. Well the ones hes dating or interested in, any way. So it may not all have to do with stereotypes for all women sometimes it may have to do with the guys and how they act themselves. I know my boyfriend couldn't get over the fact that my IQ is higher then his. Who even seriously ask someone that question any way? He even told his brother my IQ like its that amazing, or hard to believe.

On another forum there is this Japanese Guy always complaining about the women in New York not feelin him. He uses the excuse that he is Japanese and in Japan the respectable men don't approach women. Well its New York in America things are done differently. Hes not willing to adapt he loses the game.

Yeah to sum it up. You shouldn't really apologize. I'm sure many on here have been guilty of the same thing. You are a black male. Why would you know what an Asian male goes through? My ex was so closed minded to think blacks don't face serious racism. It's only because as an asian male why would he pay attention to what happens to black females. He said I was paranoid when I said I usually get watched in stores. I'm like well asian men aren't stereotyped as being theives so why would you feel eyes on you. Or get weird looks in stores.
You're right, you dated one guy so you know all about us. You got us pegged.
Seriously, don't you get that as ignorant as you tried to paint your ex, you're post is just as if not more ignorant?

[kimtae]

king, let me link you to this:
http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=622
And let's keep the dialogue going. We need more unity.

[Liang]

The power of a stereotype is that the generalization is based on an oversimplified, but observable truth. Where is the truth in either of those notions?


I think of stereotypes as being based on truths that people WANT to deliberately point out....and then they over-exaggerate it until it becomes the norm. Take the penis one for example. Yes there are Asian guys with small dicks (older Japanese porn videos are probably the most alluded to example). And if people want to refer to studies they will see that yes, on the basis of LENGTH Asian guys are on average 1/2 inch shorter (if that) than white dudes. But based on these stereotypes and negative media images it would seem like all Asian guys had 3 inch cocks, which is obviously not the case. Plus there are TONS of white, black, and hispanic dudes with small cocks also. So IMO this is the result of racist whites being threatened by nonwhite men. First it was the black men, who are stereotypically depicted as King Kong type monsters with huge muscles and penises. Asian men too were originally depicted as threats to "the purity of white women". So in response to this insecurity, whites began to depict Asian men as not being masculine enough.

[King4aDay]

I think this may be possible if people ceased being mass media slaves and consuming popular culture. They would have to learn to take the initiative to educate themselves and exhibit independent thought rather than being spoonfed or more like forcefed what to believe.

But people will not stop consuming popular culture. So...
what are you prepared to do?

It's a tough question. As blacks, our media image has improved dramatically since the 70's era of blaxploitation (talkin' bout Shaft... shut yo mouth) But it has not erased prejudice. The Political Correctness pogrom has sharply curtailed what people might say about Black people, (in public) but not what they actually think about us, right?

I'm not sure that the media is really the answer.

[King4aDay]

king, let me link you to this:
http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=622
And let's keep the dialogue going. We need more unity.

Thank You! It's bookmarked and I'm printing it out.

But when can we also hear how How Whites Use Blacks to Further Anti-Asian Racism?

[nightshade]

I like reading threads where we decide to unite with other communities to take over the world.

[King4aDay]

Yeah to sum it up. You shouldn't really apologize. I'm sure many on here have been guilty of the same thing. You are a black male. Why would you know what an Asian male goes through? My ex was so closed minded to think blacks don't face serious racism. It's only because as an asian male why would he pay attention to what happens to black females. He said I was paranoid when I said I usually get watched in stores. I'm like well asian men aren't stereotyped as being theives so why would you feel eyes on you. Or get weird looks in stores.

I'm sorry to hear about your bad relationship and I wish you healing and happiness in the future.

But, I'm sure that you realize that you could have had just as bad a relationship with a Black guy. Have you ever read the book "Our Kind of People?" The Author is Lawrence Otis Graham. The book outlines a history of black prejudice and classism within our own race and against one another.
I highly recommend it.

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Kind-People-Inside-Americas/dp/0060984384

No, my apology stands, for the reasons I originally stated.

[King4aDay]

When enough people see and understand the truth, there will be revolt if things continue to stay unfair and ugly. Asian Americans and all people of color need to speak up much more than just stay silent.

Nice to meet you RebelAzn. You originated the AM/BF post. You have my respect.

I think that there are two important things that a minority must learn

1) How to relate within his/her ethnic culture as a PART of it.
2) How to relate with other cultures, completely apart from his/her own.

I once new a black dude who grew up going to private school for all 12 years. He never really participated in the larger Black cultural experience. Anyway, he had a white girlfriend who liked to smoke weed. She got him smoking and one thing led to another and years later he was a cokehead. The girlfriend broke up with him and married a white guy. He ended up slipping from expensive cocaine to cheap crack and was soon in prison. As I'm sure you know, prison is the most racially divided place on earth, so he ended up with all the Black thugs. It wasn't pretty. He sounded like a White guy and acted like a White guy in black skin. I was very hard for him. He was constantly targeted, even hated. An extreme example but I think it is important to learn how to fit into your culture.

The other side of the coin is that people become too dependent on their culture. They begin to see everything through the filter of what their culture believes and never develop their own beliefs based on their own experiences. I wish that everyone could spend time in a place where they could NOt fall back on their cultural interpretations and were forced instead to evaluate people of other cultures based entirely on their own understanding and observations.

Of course, this is all just wishful thinking.

[ZhuBaJie]

Honestly, I don't even get why these labels stick. I have seen evidence of neither. The power of a stereotype is that the generalization is based on an oversimplified, but observable truth. Where is the truth in either of those notions?

maybe it's rhetorical, but i don't believe stereotypes are based on "observable truth". a lot of people just don't have much personal exposure to people from other backgrounds. they may even see each other in public, but many do not spend time socialising and talking with each other. they see what they see on TV or in movies, and combined that with a bit of intellectual laziness, they buy into the stereotypes.

[TheMac]

funny thing is, i think for a lot of non-black girls, even if they wouldn't date black guys, they wouldn't admit to it because they don't want to sound racist. but it's OK to say they don't want Asian guys because discriminating against Asians is not as taboo as discriminating against blacks.

...or because it's more socially acceptable/common for a white or Latina woman to be dating a black man than an Asian man. Especially Latina; in NYC, that's not even considered IR.

[Apollyon]

But people will not stop consuming popular culture. So...
what are you prepared to do?

It's a tough question. As blacks, our media image has improved dramatically since the 70's era of blaxploitation (talkin' bout Shaft... shut yo mouth) But it has not erased prejudice. The Political Correctness pogrom has sharply curtailed what people might say about Black people, (in public) but not what they actually think about us, right?

I'm not sure that the media is really the answer.

You are right in that the media is not enough, but it is a good first step. There is a feedback process which occurs between media and consumers in which media gives consumers what they desire but also create the desire as well.

Assuming that media is one of the primary drivers of racism, and I believe it is a fair bet to say so, then it must be dealt with as with any dynamical system through negative feedback in the mathematical sense.

Now I believe in order to remove racism in general would require a fundamental reordering and restructuring of both the existing social power hierarchy as well as the functioning of human cognition. In other words, this is highly unlikely. The best that can be hoped for is something that approaches a level playing field throughout the spectrum of human endeavors.

Media is one such endeavor since here in the Western world it is overwhelmingly controlled by white men for the benefit of white men.

Employment equity, college admissions, the glass and bamboo ceiling in industry and academia, proportionate representation on local, state, and federal levels in law enforcement, the judicial system, and government etc. are other human endeavors which need to be addressed as well.

I believe that once there is equity in all of the above, then it may be likely that the social playing field might level itself as well.

As for what I am doing personally, that is another matter.

[King4aDay]

I think of stereotypes as being based on truths that people WANT to deliberately point out....and then they over-exaggerate it until it becomes the norm. Take the penis one for example. Yes there are Asian guys with small dicks (older Japanese porn videos are probably the most alluded to example). And if people want to refer to studies they will see that yes, on the basis of LENGTH Asian guys are on average 1/2 inch shorter (if that) than white dudes. But based on these stereotypes and negative media images it would seem like all Asian guys had 3 inch cocks, which is obviously not the case. Plus there are TONS of white, black, and hispanic dudes with small cocks also. So IMO this is the result of racist whites being threatened by nonwhite men. First it was the black men, who are stereotypically depicted as King Kong type monsters with huge muscles and penises. Asian men too were originally depicted as threats to "the purity of white women". So in response to this insecurity, whites began to depict Asian men as not being masculine enough.

Very insightful!

Hmm.. How on earth do they get guys to submit to a scientific penis measuring survey? And what are the criteria? Is it measured flaccid or erect? Who keeps it erect? Who does the measuring, is it another guy in a lab coat and cheap cologne?

[King4aDay]

maybe it's rhetorical, but i don't believe stereotypes are based on "observable truth". a lot of people just don't have much personal exposure to people from other backgrounds. they may even see each other in public, but many do not spend time socialising and talking with each other. they see what they see on TV or in movies, and combined that with a bit of intellectual laziness, they buy into the stereotypes.

Perhaps you're right, but at some point, most people are going to ask, "Are they REALLY like that?" At some point they're going to bump into actual Asians, or Mexicans, or Blacks, or Martians, and take a long look and listen. It seems that at that moment the stereotype is either confirmed, or a new truth comes to the surface. "Well, I guess, they're not ALL like that are they?"

[King4aDay]

You are right in that the media is not enough, but it is a good first step. There is a feedback process which occurs between media and consumers in which media gives consumers what they desire but also create the desire as well.

Assuming that media is one of the primary drivers of racism, and I believe it is a fair bet to say so, then it must be dealt with as with any dynamical system through negative feedback in the mathematical sense.

Now I believe in order to remove racism in general would require a fundamental reordering and restructuring of both the existing social power hierarchy as well as the functioning of human cognition. In other words, this is highly unlikely. The best that can be hoped for is something that approaches a level playing field throughout the spectrum of human endeavors.

Media is one such endeavor since here in the Western world it is overwhelmingly controlled by white men for the benefit of white men.

Employment equity, college admissions, the glass and bamboo ceiling in industry and academia, proportionate representation on local, state, and federal levels in law enforcement, the judicial system, and government etc. are other human endeavors which need to be addressed as well.

I believe that once there is equity in all of the above, then it may be likely that the social playing field might level itself as well.

As for what I am doing personally, that is another matter.

"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Thank you for your intelligent answers.

[TheMac]

How on earth do they get guys to submit to a scientific penis measuring survey?

Is that something the 44's are willing to sponsor. Cause I'd volunteer....just saying. Everyone gets A's.

It's a tough question. As blacks, our media image has improved dramatically since the 70's era of blaxploitation (talkin' bout Shaft... shut yo mouth) But it has not erased prejudice. The Political Correctness pogrom has sharply curtailed what people might say about Black people, (in public) but not what they actually think about us, right?

But that is about social power, correct? The social 'capital' to be able to say, "Implying or stating this is racist and will result in some sort of societal judgment or punishment." Poof. Kramer looses his career, Mel Gibson's a joke. That power hasn't been transferred to all 'minority' groups. Either way, I don't think it necessarily (definitely not quickly) affects what's in people's hearts or minds. It can also lead to the dreaded anti-political-correctness, where it's now cool or fashionable to say the racist or sexist or homophobic thing, and the person who gets offended is mentally-enslaved or some bullshit.

[RebelAzn]

Very insightful!

Hmm.. How on earth do they get guys to submit to a scientific penis measuring survey? And what are the criteria? Is it measured flaccid or erect? Who keeps it erect? Who does the measuring, is it another guy in a lab coat and cheap cologne?

Yep that's what I am wondering. BTW, thanks for the respect on starting this thread. I also started a penis thread on this very topic a long ago too. I had these conversations with some very intelligent black men when I was little and did learned quite a few things about stereotypes and how it negatively affected the black community. Most black Americans are much more aware about racism than Asian Americans. Many Asian Americans are isolated in all white communities and after some time, their world is twisted and pretty fucked up. I am sure you are starting to understand some of these issues people have been discussing here.

Back on the penis thing, it is just one of the stupid stereotypes to put people in some kind of category. It is yet another way to dehumanize someone by stereotyping a billion Asian men into like they are all the same. I always wonder how to these guys manage to get people to send in their penis measurements? There are probably more difference between men of same race than averages between between men of different races.

It is the same thing about all black people being stupid. Once some people start to believe it, they will go out of their way to point out facts to support that stereotype.

Bottom line is media by itself won't resolve the issue, but it certainly will help since people are heavily influenced by TV. We also need to implement some educational materials into schools. Until everyone has a level playing field, it is not easy to be colorblind unless you are a white person.

[King4aDay]

Back to the Asian stereotype thing. I realize that I explained why I didn't buy into the Asian Male stereotype I did not discuss at all my feelings about the Asian Female stereotype;

This is going to sound quite stupid but I'm going to do it anyway.
1) I'm not dating an Asian Girl
2) I've never had an Asian Girlfriend
3) I've gone on dates with just about every race in L.A. including Asians

I did that for context, I'm not sure why.

Growing up in LA, I had Asian girls in all of my classes since kindergarten. All throughout school the Asian girls I knew always dressed rather conservatively. They were always very polite, and very ladylike. I never saw a plunging neckline, a miniskirt, or a pair of pumps and fishnet stockings among them. They were never loud or aggressive or seductive in the way that they spoke or acted.

Fast forward to college and beyond. OK either Asian girls changed in general, or I just met a totally different set of AA girls in college. They were dressed pretty much like everyone else but they NEVER appeared to be any more sexual or seductive than anybody else. In fact, regardless of being dressed like the rest of the girls, (hot) they seemed to still act somewhat more conservatively than many.

I know my observations are very subjective, but based on all that I know, I don't understand the whole oversexed Asian seductress angle. It seems rather insulting, but it's not my place to be insulted.

[King4aDay]

I also started a penis thread on this very topic

A penis thread sound like something that happens when your underwear get frayed.

[Apollyon]

Perhaps you're right, but at some point, most people are going to ask, "Are they REALLY like that?" At some point they're going to bump into actual Asians, or Mexicans, or Blacks, or Martians, and take a long look and listen. It seems that at that moment the stereotype is either confirmed, or a new truth comes to the surface. "Well, I guess, they're not ALL like that are they?"

I think this would work well in theory assuming that the racial minority in question is viewed as a person. Racism seeks to reduce people to a collection of stereotypes instead of as a living breathing human being with all the thoughts, feelings, rights, and freedoms as anybody else.

A standard tactic in warfare is to dehumanize the enemy thus enabling any number of atrocities to be inflicted upon them. Now observe what is happening in contemporary American mainstream media. Is there any dehumanizing going on? How does the treatment of racial minorities in media differ from that of whites? Now if such treatment were to be quantified, what results would be expected? By now I am sure everybody has heard of missing white woman syndrome which by itself is a good indicator that middle America just doesn't care about missing black men who comprise the largest proportion of missing people.

And again, this is why we must break the media monopoly. Having token minorities as newscasters and reporters is not enough. POC must be empowered to write and report the news that is relevant to their communities and indeed every community, not just the white community.

[kimtae]

Thank You! It's bookmarked and I'm printing it out.

But when can we also hear how How Whites Use Blacks to Further Anti-Asian Racism?
That's in the news everyday. The media loves to hype inter-ethnic conflict and flame the fires of discord.

[TheMac]

King4aDay, it's not an issue with most A/AA women. It's not an issue with AA women I know, who rock awesomely. It's these A/AA women who focus all sexual energy on picking-up white men (or at least non-Asian men)...

a). aren't doing it in a "me love you long time" or "lemme be your geisha" kind of way. It's more subtle. There's a way a woman can make it clear she's only interested in a certain pool of men...to the exclusion of others.

b). alot of it does play into 'rice-chaser' stereotypes. "You're so funny, you're so masculine." It's a high for men seeking a stroke to the ego, especially (how do I say this nicely) if they don't receive it from the average woman of their own race. The underlining message is, "You're not like the mean sexist oppressive, non-emotional Asian men my parents wanted me to date. This is what sexual freedom must feel like! Guide me with your magical [white] penis."

c). There's not an A/AA person alive who isn't aware of child prostitution and sexual enslavement happening in Asian countries, so no, I don't buy that when an A/AA comedianne brags about wearing pigtails to turn-on white men, she isn't alluding to how much sexual power she thinks she holds because someone who (may) look like him flies to her country to have sex with children. The image is clear- you're the slave-master, I know my place. It's disgusting. The sexual implications behind alot of behavior that the kind of A/AA women I'm discussing display are obvious and say, "Through your desire to have sex with me, I'm somehow overcoming the burden my own racial status and cultural expectations. I am a feminist because of this, and I am white now because I am willing to be with you."

The "seductress" angle isn't as over-the-top as you're thinking. It's behaviors and choices that create clear understandings about one's own way of thinking about themselves and their culture in relation to Westernized-ideals. The "little geisha girl" has evolved...but it's still equally disturbing.

[King4aDay]

I think this would work well in theory assuming that the racial minority in question is viewed as a person. Racism seeks to reduce people to a collection of stereotypes instead of as a living breathing human being with all the thoughts, feelings, rights, and freedoms as anybody else.

A standard tactic in warfare is to dehumanize the enemy thus enabling any number of atrocities to be inflicted upon them. Now observe what is happening in contemporary American mainstream media. Is there any dehumanizing going on? How does the treatment of racial minorities in media differ from that of whites? Now if such treatment were to be quantified, what results would be expected? By now I am sure everybody has heard of missing white woman syndrome which by itself is a good indicator that middle America just doesn't care about missing black men who comprise the largest proportion of missing people.

And again, this is why we must break the media monopoly. Having token minorities as newscasters and reporters is not enough. POC must be empowered to write and report the news that is relevant to their communities and indeed every community, not just the white community.

All true. I cannot argue with your points nor your logic. But I believe that it's a bit easier to become a person than some believe. I'm a black guy dialoging here on an Asian political website. I'm not here as an ambassador, an envoy, or representative of any kind. Yet, I'm here, and we're talking. I'm Black. Am I aggressive? Am I ignorant? Am I illiterate? (be fair now, typos don't count!)

And you are all here and you don't sound like a bunch of wimps or geeks or whitewashed social jellyfish. I found you because of a cross search and one thread. And yet, you have already changed my mind...

[kimtae]

I don't understand the whole oversexed Asian seductress angle.
'Full Metal Jacket' is a good starter. Think also colonialism, war-time prostitution (Suzie Wong), the Dragonlady (the term was first used in a Terry and the Pirates comic strip in the 30's), sex secrets and mysteries of the Orient, sideways pussies, submissive Asian dolls, etc. White men have long repressed sexual frustrations combined with overactive imaginations.

[King4aDay]

King4aDay, it's not an issue with most A/AA women. It's not an issue with AA women I know, who rock awesomely. It's these A/AA women who focus all sexual energy on picking-up white men (or at least non-Asian men)...

a). aren't doing it in a "me love you long time" or "lemme be your geisha" kind of way. It's more subtle. There's a way a woman can make it clear she's only interested in a certain pool of men...to the exclusion of others.

b). alot of it does play into 'rice-chaser' stereotypes. "You're so funny, you're so masculine." It's a high for men seeking a stroke to the ego, especially (how do I say this nicely) if they don't receive it from the average woman of their own race. The underlining message is, "You're not like the mean sexist oppressive, non-emotional Asian men my parents wanted me to date. This is what sexual freedom must feel like! Guide me with your magical [white] penis."

c). There's not an A/AA person alive who isn't aware of child prostitution and sexual enslavement happening in Asian countries, so no, I don't buy that when an A/AA comedianne brags about wearing pigtails to turn-on white men, she isn't alluding to how much sexual power she thinks she holds because someone who (may) look like him flies to her country to have sex with children. The image is clear- you're the slave-master, I know my place. It's disgusting. The sexual implications behind alot of behavior that the kind of A/AA women I'm discussing display are obvious and say, "Through your desire to have sex with me, I'm somehow overcoming the burden my own racial status and cultural expectations. I am a feminist because of this, and I am white now because I am willing to be with you."

The "seductress" angle isn't as over-the-top as you're thinking. It's behaviors and choices that create clear understandings about one's own way of thinking about themselves and their culture in relation to Westernized-ideals. The "little geisha girl" has evolved...but it's still equally disturbing.

Thank you, I would never have understood that without your help. What you say makes sense.

[Apollyon]

Ah, but I think the problem is that you and perhaps some of us are the exceptions to the rule. For many in the activist community I believe, it is like preaching to the choir. We need to reach those on the other side, or at least the fence sitters, to create an open and intellectually honest dialog. But in order to do so, both parties must be appropriately knowledgeable about relevant issues and be open minded to other points of view. This, in my experience in discussing race relations, is rare since so many people are either unable or unwilling to be objective about very sensitive personal issues, ie. the race of their dating partner.

Also, as I stated before, becoming knowledgeable about racial issues takes a considerable investment in time and effort which few people I imagine are interested in. So most likely the catalyst for change I imagine would be social policy implemented by people with the requisite knowledge and training to effect positive and quantifiable change.

However, we can help this process along by being ambassadors and leading by example. I think one of the major ailments of society today is people's absolving themselves of social responsibility. This is the generation of "its not my problem, let somebody else fix it". But we need not be representatives of our race, we need only be the best people we can be as individuals since that is ultimately what all of us are.

[King4aDay]

Ah, but I think the problem is that you and perhaps some of us are the exceptions to the rule.

Oh, I hope not.

But yes, I understand what you mean. There is a lot of ignorance out there but we need each other. We could be so much stronger together than we are apart.

Perhaps Nightshade was right after all...

"I like reading threads where we decide to unite with other communities to take over the world."

[Apollyon]

Oh you are right, we definitely need each other. There is a saying from my people that individually you can break one chopstick very easily, but when you have many together they are much stronger. We cannot let this strategy of divide and conquer continue for it is working too well. If I recall correctly, there were Asians that marched along with blacks for civil rights. Now it seems we are all marching against rather than with each other.

[tkguy]

we have a lot of black people coming here for one reason and not for another.

Let me turns this around and make an observation, you obviously are close friends with a white girl from your post. So it's obvious her views are a reflection on general accepted racist views of western society regarding asian men. What's to say that the acceptance of these racist views have not been used to shape her relationships with black men, namely you? and how about your relationship with her?

[King4aDay]

"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."
Martin Luther King, Jr

I believe we have a similar understanding among my people.

[King4aDay]

we have a lot of black people coming here for one reason and not for another.

Let me turns this around and make an observation, you obviously are close friends with a white girl from your post. So it's obvious her views are a reflection on general accepted racist views of western society regarding asian men. What's to say that the acceptance of these racist views have not been used to shape her relationships with black men, namely you? and how about your relationship with her?

Close enough to ask the question, yes but not inner-circle close.
What you say may be true, I could not know without being her.
I suppose she's as entitled to her delusions as I am to mine.

[Apollyon]

One thing that I think is worth considering though is something that I have been thinking about for a while. Somebody here I believe once said that when it comes to racial politics it does not have to be a zero sum game. I disagree with this. When it comes to anything that deals with finite resources, be it federal funds, airtime, newspaper real estate, or foreign aid, then it automatically becomes a zero sum game. You cannot elevate one player without taking from another. Think of this from the perspective of game theory. Assuming that the goal is to have a level playing field for all players in terms of finite resources, how do you allocate these resources without taking the surplus from some and giving it to those with a deficit? You can't, it is impossible. The problem is those with the surplus will fight tooth and nail to hang on to it and if the nature of that surplus is such that the more you have, the better ability you will have to hang on to it, then it is much less likely that a level playing field will be possible. I believe this is the exact situation that we have today.

[King4aDay]

One thing that I think is worth considering though is something that I have been thinking about for a while. Somebody here I believe once said that when it comes to racial politics it does not have to be a zero sum game. I disagree with this. When it comes to anything that deals with finite resources, be it federal funds, airtime, newspaper real estate, or foreign aid, then it automatically becomes a zero sum game. You cannot elevate one player without taking from another. Think of this from the perspective of game theory. Assuming that the goal is to have a level playing field for all players in terms of finite resources, how do you allocate these resources without taking the surplus from some and giving it to those with a deficit? You can't, it is impossible. The problem is those with the surplus will fight tooth and nail to hang on to it and if the nature of that surplus is such that the more you have, the better ability you will have to hang on to it, then it is much less likely that a level playing field will be possible. I believe this is the exact situation that we have today.

Do you mean that the White power structure would have to become less powerful in order for the minority interests to become more empowered? If so, I agree that this is so.

[King4aDay]

we have a lot of black people coming here for one reason and not for another.

By the way, what is the reason and why not the other?

[ZhuBaJie]

'Full Metal Jacket' is a good starter.

i know a lot of Asian Americans think Full Metal Jacket really set us back a long way. but i mostly consider the movie in the larger context of being an anti-war movie, and in the context of how the Vietnamese were portrayed, it showed how they were necessarily dehumanised for the war. i think Kubrick's point was not to just throw out an Asian prostitute stereotype for the hell of it, but to show the dehumanised but realistic manner in which the soldiers came to interact with the Vietnamese people.

another important thing to consider is that Full Metal Jacket is part of what is sort of a first generation of anti-war films, at least in the US. sure, there were a few anti-war films about WW2 after it was over. but it was starting with the Vietnam War that a number of anti-war films sought to portray war with realism. but Full Metal Jacket was certainly not the first of its kind. Apocalypse Now and Deer Hunter were a couple of pioneers in the anti-Vietnam War collection of movies. it might sound silly, but to be honest, i think MASH actually really got the ball rolling on anti-war portrayals in the media. the show was set in the Korean War, but everybody understood the real context, which was the Vietnam War (the show aired during the Vietnam War).

anyway, just my 2 cents.

[kimtae]

i know a lot of Asian Americans think Full Metal Jacket really set us back a long way. but i mostly consider the movie in the larger context of being an anti-war movie, and in the context of how the Vietnamese were portrayed, it showed how they were necessarily dehumanised for the war. i think Kubrick's point was not to just throw out an Asian prostitute stereotype for the hell of it, but to show the dehumanised but realistic manner in which the soldiers came to interact with the Vietnamese people.

another important thing to consider is that Full Metal Jacket is part of what is sort of a first generation of anti-war films, at least in the US. sure, there were a few anti-war films about WW2 after it was over. but it was starting with the Vietnam War that a number of anti-war films sought to portray war with realism. but Full Metal Jacket was certainly not the first of its kind. Apocalypse Now and Deer Hunter were a couple of pioneers in the anti-Vietnam War collection of movies. it might sound silly, but to be honest, i think MASH actually really got the ball rolling on anti-war portrayals in the media. the show was set in the Korean War, but everybody understood the real context, which was the Vietnam War (the show aired during the Vietnam War).

anyway, just my 2 cents.
I know what Kubrick's intent was. The problem is Luther Campbell and millions of other Americans don't care.

[tkguy]

By the way, what is the reason and why not the other?

I am stating that non-asians seem to come here for the same reason.

So where did you find this "bitter asian man" post?

[King4aDay]

I am stating that non-asians seem to come here for the same reason.

So where did you find this "bitter asian man" post?

I think it was either somewhere withinin the " What White People Like" or the "What Asian People Like" reply posts, but I cant be 100% as I was jumping around.

Do you mind that I came here and for that reason?

[nycjoc]

This is an interesting Thread. First I wanted to address the sterotype them going now: I have always wondered about the stereotypes people carry about Asian people, more recently the men in particular. I believe that half the problems with stereotypes is the fact that we are lazy as stated before and that it's easier to use those stereotypes as a shield to validate our bullshit than to engage. What do I mean?

When I was in college, Uni of chi-town, (about to age myself) it was after all hell broke loose in LA during Rodney King. It was also during that time when Ice Cube came out with the song Black Korea. Tension was kind of thick at the time and people were looking at folks sideways. So the organization of Black students met with an organization of Asian students to have a dialogue. You would not believe the level of foolishness that passed for discussion at the time. There was the constant finger pointing, yelling and people generally talking without listening. But finally we managed to calm down long enough towards to end to really talk about what bothers us and frankly learn. Now I’m not going to say that everyone walked away enlighten, most probably didn't but What I did learn is that sometimes we as people of color hold on to stereotypes about each other to our own detriment. A part me felt like we all were a bunch of fools because at the end of the day, when it was convenient, there were those in the majority that saw us all the same way, less than them.

I think people of color use stereotypes sometimes as a way to prove how much better (whiter) they are to the other group because to come close to what is perceived as white perfection there is a need by some to degrade to prove validation. It even happens within poc's own diaspora. Poc of color are really good at dragging each other down. But it also perpetuates group think because we are always judged as a group and even though we hate it we still feel compelled to a point to answers as a group.

[nycjoc]

Okay this deals with the orginal theme of the thread.

I do agree that Asian males are not seen very sexually in the media or outside society.
Caveats about me:
Black Female
Originally from Indiana now in NYC
I tend to be cool with a lot of guys so they tell maybe more than I ever wanted to hear about their life and problems including Asian males.
I find men of color more attractive than white males any day.

In my case I never had a problem we seeing Asian males as masculine but I know others do. I grew up with boxing in my house and a step father into action flicks. He got us into Kung Fu theater. So when we weren’t watching some form of boxing we watched martial arts. In my mind the very fact that a man could physically hone his body into a lethal weapon was indicative of maleness. In fact I grew up in a house watching people of color from a young age because my stepfather and my mother insisted on it. Hell my first movie star crush was Bruce Lee and because of him I always looked at Asian men as an option as I got older to date.

As I got older it got on my nerves watching Asian dudes act like nerds all the damn time in films but a part of me was unconsciously absorbing stereotypes about Asian people. Because Asian males weren't hardly represented in films after a while, anything dealing with Asian people fell off my radar. I grew up in Indiana, there just were a lot of Asians around me and the only access I really got was from TV and the beauty supply stores (which is a whole other discussion in and of itself). It wasn’t until college that I really got to know Asian men in their various ways and put them in the proper place as just men and like all men and people, with issues.

However, even after my long hiatus from interacting with them one thing that remained constant was I always found them just as attractive as other men. Also when I got to college I got into foreign films so I actively tried to find films from Asian (still do to this day). To me women who believe that Asian males are lame to put it mildly, are just not paying attention or took the easy route. They have internalized a lot of bull but then again I can see why. There are rarely any Asian male characters in a romantic lead unless they are kicking someone’s ass. When you see them in a lead they are usually trying to wax poetic with white folks (especially the women.) I remember joy luck club. The first time I saw it I was okay the second time I kept wondering why all the Asian men in the story was nuts. The media has not been kind to Asian males. I think the only way out of it is to make your own films, even if independently and get it out there. Because truth be told, I only get positive images of Asian males from films made in Korean, Japan, Hong Kong, basically from Asian. It was what I did when iI wanted to see black folks doing positive stuff, I made it a point to put money down on films made by black people do right by the Black image. (Had to get out that habit too, yet another long ass story).

[RebelAzn]

Okay this deals with the orginal theme of the thread.

I do agree that Asian males are not seen very sexually in the media or outside society.
Caveats about me:
Black Female
Originally from Indiana now in NYC
I tend to be cool with a lot of guys so they tell maybe more than I ever wanted to hear about their life and problems including Asian males.
I find men of color more attractive than white males any day.

In my case I never had a problem we seeing Asian males as masculine but I know others do. I grew up with boxing in my house and a step father into action flicks. He got us into Kung Fu theater. So when we weren’t watching some form of boxing we watched martial arts. In my mind the very fact that a man could physically hone his body into a lethal weapon was indicative of maleness. In fact I grew up in a house watching people of color from a young age because my stepfather and my mother insisted on it. Hell my first movie star crush was Bruce Lee and because of him I always looked at Asian men as an option as I got older to date.

As I got older it got on my nerves watching Asian dudes act like nerds all the damn time in films but a part of me was unconsciously absorbing stereotypes about Asian people. Because Asian males weren't hardly represented in films after a while, anything dealing with Asian people fell off my radar. I grew up in Indiana, there just were a lot of Asians around me and the only access I really got was from TV and the beauty supply stores (which is a whole other discussion in and of itself). It wasn’t until college that I really got to know Asian men in their various ways and put them in the proper place as just men and like all men and people, with issues.

However, even after my long hiatus from interacting with them one thing that remained constant was I always found them just as attractive as other men. Also when I got to college I got into foreign films so I actively tried to find films from Asian (still do to this day). To me women who believe that Asian males are lame to put it mildly, are just not paying attention or took the easy route. They have internalized a lot of bull but then again I can see why. There are rarely any Asian male characters in a romantic lead unless they are kicking someone’s ass. When you see them in a lead they are usually trying to wax poetic with white folks (especially the women.) I remember joy luck club. The first time I saw it I was okay the second time I kept wondering why all the Asian men in the story was nuts. The media has not been kind to Asian males. I think the only way out of it is to make your own films, even if independently and get it out there. Because truth be told, I only get positive images of Asian males from films made in Korean, Japan, Hong Kong, basically from Asian. It was what I did when iI wanted to see black folks doing positive stuff, I made it a point to put money down on films made by black people do right by the Black image. (Had to get out that habit too, yet another long ass story).


Great comments. Especially the ones about how the media influenced you and in many ways all of us while growing up. BTW, I also agree that many minorities try to compete to see who is whiter vs. just accepting who we are and celebrate it.

[Dialectic]

Thanks for sharing that with us, King4aDay! We like to think we're reasonable people. (Listen to the Podcast!)

[King4aDay]

I begin to wonder how much of the misconseptions about Asian men may be a "Lost in Translation" issue.

I mean, in the west, the U.S. of A. in particular, the definition of masulinity is most often related to the "Jock culture." We begin the jockinization vetting process for our boys quite young through little leagues. By high school the alpha males have been firmy established as sports heroes and both men and women seem to have accepted the pecking order of jocks and cheerleaders at the top, and brains, nerds, and band members, near the bottom.

Of course, as we get older this structure get's modified somewhat, and the ability to earn gets bumped up to the top. But then again, the ultimate hereo is still very often the professional jock who fit's the old high school pecking order AND makes millions of dollars to boot!

But, when you think of it, the idea that men's masculitnity should be based on how well thay can play three American ball games seems pretty lame. I played football and basketball in high school, and I can tell you, sometimes the jocks were the biggest babies on campus.

My point is that the specific tests of masculinity vary from culture to culture and I wonder if this cultural mistranslation of "non-jock = non-masculine" has something to do with the prevailing stereotype against Asian men.

If many Asian cultures emphasizes academics over athletics (which is, after all, quite sensible in a post industrial society) then their men may be perceived as non-masculine based on a flawed interpretation or a flawed definition.

[King4aDay]

Thanks for sharing that with us, King4aDay! We like to think we're reasonable people. (Listen to the Podcast!)

Thank you, Dialectic, I'll give it a listen, and kudos on a great site.

[RebelAzn]

I begin to wonder how much of the misconceptions about Asian men may be a "Lost in Translation" issue.

I mean, in the west, the U.S. of A. in particular, the definition of masulinity is most often related to the "Jock culture." We begin the jockinization vetting process for our boys quite young through little leagues. By high school the alpha males have been firmy established as sports heroes and both men and women seem to have accepted the pecking order of jocks and cheerleaders at the top, and brains, nerds, and band members, near the bottom.

Of course, as we get older this structure get's modified somewhat, and the ability to earn get's bumped up to the top. But then again, the ultimate hereo is still often the professional jock who fit's the old pecking order AND makes millions of dollars to boot!

But, when you think of it, the idea that men's masculitnity should be based on how well thay can play three American ball games seems pretty lame. I played football and basketball in high school, and I can tell you, sometimes the jocks were the biggest babies on campus.

My point is that the specific tests of masculinity vary from culture to culture and I wonder if this cultural mistranslation of "non-jock = non-masculine" has something to do with the prevailing stereotype of Asian men. If many Asian cultures emphasizes academics much more than athletics (which is, after all, quite sensible in a post industrial society) then their men may be perceived as non masculine based on a flawed definition.

That certainly has a lot to do with it. Most Asian parents discourage their kids from playing sports period. I know my parents did and thank god my brothers and I did not listen to them. They don't want their kids getting hurt which is understandable, but they also don't understand all the positive things playing sports can bring. Also, many recent Asians from Asia to USA are students from studying for advanced degrees, so they don't exactly let the thuggish types come over to USA. In Asia, people do respect smart people far more than athletes so that's another reason many Asian parents emphasize on education. However, that might change now with more athletes getting paid much more and exposure to American sports thanks to Yao Ming.

You are right though, we live in a society who idolizes sports figures when in reality they are just entertainers. I mean, for the society to advance we need more scientists and engineers, not more men who can score 3 TDs or dunk a basketball. Sports figures have its place in a society, but making them much more important than people that have PHDs is just plain crazy. Once you get older, you start to realize that but try tell that to a 15 years old who grew up watching NFL, MLB or NBA players making millions, full of glitz and getting chicks on TV.

[nycjoc]

I agree with both Rebel and King. Sports help shape and define males in this society sometimes for the worst or detriment to males. Also sport like movies and TV lend legitimacy to male’s stereotypes of power, strength and skills. And even if one values education, when you watch television or movies and you still don’t see powerful young Asian males running things or having women chase after them, or just deemed as sexy. Asian males become invisible and not just on television but also just walking down the street.

In general, it seems for many women with whom I associate; Asian males are just not seen. And even now I have a friend who’s cool with this Asian chick and my friend tells me based on this particular woman’s opinion that Asian guys are basically no good so I need to be careful. WTF. Yes that’s just one woman and I’ve seen and heard plenty of Asian women who do respect and love their men but my point is there seems to be a silent understanding that Asian men in some context don’t matter. No one cares outside their Diaspora.

One of the reasons I come to this site because I am trying to understand what the hell is going on. No one talks about Asian men at all around me as a love interest or anything else. (I mean primarily in my writing circle does this come up a lot about lead characters) It’s was only in the context of what I said before about an inane conversation about whose attractive when everyone looked at me shocked that I find Asian men attractive, and not just the movie stars. It made wonder what was up with that. But more importantly it irritates the hell out me. I told my friend that Dragonball Z casted a white dude as the lead and she couldn’t get over it. Why was it so hard to put an Asian dude as the main character? Who would it piss off? People going to see it would expect an Asian dude in that role if in no other but still it had to be a white dude. In the end I just ain’t down for supporting that bullshit but others don’t seem to care because it’s easy to marginalize when it doesn’t affect you or pretend that someone is being “oversensitive” when it does.

[groinpull]

This is a damn good thread. I was about to lose faith in the F44s.

Where's the star rater thingy on this thinkamajig?

[King4aDay]

Yes. But if by your freshman year, everybody is making judgements about people who look like you based on your ability to handle a ball, then when those same boys and girls grow up and start writing sitcoms, how do you think they're going to write you?

[nycjoc]

I agree. And that's an issue but again, if a person whose writing is not intellectually curious enough or would rather play to the stereotype then it's on us poc to call them on it. We can't keep enabling lazy thinkers. After calling them out then it's time to educate. I understand sometimes things are done for jokes but that can't be the over riding excuse for all of it. It becomes lame.

[jaehwan]

Allow me to take this opportunity to post (re-post) my favorite New York Times article of all time: Lunch Period Poli Sci by David Brooks. (http://select.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/opinion/30brooks.html) (You need a Times login to get in, but it's free. And EVERY 44 should have a Times login anyway!)

Brooks explains how life in adulthood works according to the rules of the high school cafeteria with the jocks and nerds.

I think most 44's, due to the writing, reading, and intelligence requirements of the site, probably lean more towards that geekdom kingdom. Which is why we're always commenting on why the popular Asian American kids in society (Elaine Chao, most of the Committee of 100, etc.) can't seem to get their shit in order.

[RebelAzn]

I think most 44's, due to the writing, reading, and intelligence requirements of the site, probably lean more towards that geekdom kingdom.

Haha.. speaking for yourself dude. However, I do understand your point of view. I never considered myself a geek while growing up. Perhaps it is also another reason why some of these stereotypes are so lame. My brothers and I all played sports and we all have done fine. Like King said, there are plenty of cry babies in sports too. Most people only see the surface when they don't deal with these guys day to day. When I worked out like mad, many of those huge muscle dudes are some of the most insecure guys I know.

[RebelAzn]

I agree. And that's an issue but again, if a person whose writing is not intellectually curious enough or would rather play to the stereotype then it's on us poc to call them on it. We can't keep enabling lazy thinkers. After calling them out then it's time to educate. I understand sometimes things are done for jokes but that can't be the over riding excuse for all of it. It becomes lame.

Thank you for the statement. Because there are no role models for Asian men in the media, we become invisible. Because we are invisible, it becomes easier for people to stereotype. Like you said, most people don't care unless it affected them somehow.

If people like us don't speak up, nothing will change.

I also have say all the glitz from all these sports stars are definitely sending the wrong message to kids. I love sports as any jock out there, but I don't ever want my kids (when I have some) growing up thinking they goal in life is to be a pro baseball or football player. Considering 1 in 20,000 kids even make it as pro athelete, the odds are stacked from day 1. Even when you do make it, you are one injury away from becoming a nobody.

[jaehwan]

Haha.. speaking for yourself dude. I never considered myself a geek while growing up. Perhaps it is also another reason why some of these stereotypes are so lame. My brothers and I all played sports and we all have done fine. Like King said, there are plenty of cry babies in sports too. Most people only see the surface when they don't deal with these guys day to day. When I worked out like mad, many of those huge muscle dudes are some of the most insecure guys I know.

Most of us, Rebel, not all of us. As I've mentioned, you're an extremely unique individual, and you're one of the top people on my list of people I want to meet before dying.

In any case, I'll speak for myself. Jaehwan is a proud representative for geeks around the world. Considering the fact that I just finished an 800 page book on Abraham Lincoln (http://books.google.com/books?id=ONhhui9SRsMC&dq=team+of+rivals&pg=PP1&ots=pYXNtugm9f&sig=tvPmG8es6SoXjbIuyIqlUtEk40s&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fsourceid%3Dnavclient%26ie%3DUTF-8%26rls%3DGGLJ,GGLJ:2006-34,GGLJ:en%26q%3Dteam%2Bof%2Brivals&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail), who, like Clinton, was a member of both tribes, I'm going to wear that badge with pride. I'd like to see the jocks of the world touch that.

[RebelAzn]

Most of us, Rebel, not all of us. As I've mentioned, you're an extremely unique individual, and you're one of the top people on my list of people I want to meet before dying.

In any case, I'll speak for myself. Jaehwan is a proud representative for geeks around the world. Considering the fact that I just finished an 800 page book on Abraham Lincoln (http://books.google.com/books?id=ONhhui9SRsMC&dq=team+of+rivals&pg=PP1&ots=pYXNtugm9f&sig=tvPmG8es6SoXjbIuyIqlUtEk40s&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fsourceid%3Dnavclient%26ie%3DUTF-8%26rls%3DGGLJ,GGLJ:2006-34,GGLJ:en%26q%3Dteam%2Bof%2Brivals&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail), who, like Clinton, was a member of both tribes, I'm going to wear that badge with pride. I'd like to see the jocks of the world touch that.

Thanks Jaehwan. One of these days perhaps we will meet up. I do have to thank people like you who are actively speaking up for Asian Americans. Some of us (like me) don't know exactly how to write or talk in a politically correct manner at times. Haha.. Perhaps I grew up hanging out many Asian Americans who are jocks, I have a total different perspective on Asian men than just guys who hung around geeks that did not do much other than studying. For example, I have a friend who got D-1 scholarship in basketball and he is only 5'10" tall. The guy can ball and dunk. My brother tested #1 in his class in physical tests at Coast Guard millitary academy when he attended there. I know other guys who are like olympic caliber martial artists. Those guys are all also smart as hell too. Those are not your normal geeks off the street.

[King4aDay]

Allow me to take this opportunity to post (re-post) my favorite New York Times article of all time: Lunch Period Poli Sci by David Brooks. (http://select.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/opinion/30brooks.html) (You need a Times login to get in, but it's free. And EVERY 44 should have a Times login anyway!)


Wow! That is an EXCELLENT article! And completely apropos to what I was trying to articulate. The logical extension of this thinking is, if there is a race of people who's men very often fall closer to the brainy/geeky category, than to the jock category, then they will continue to be perceived and portrayed at the bottom of the social pecking order.

Incidentally, you would think that this dynamic puts YT in an impossible position with fears of African-Americans being better athletes and of Asians being smarter. Where does YT fit in? :-)

[RebelAzn]

Wow! That is an EXCELLENT article! And completely apropos to what I was trying to articulate. The logical extension of this thinking is, if there is a race of people who's men very often fall closer to the brainy/geeky category, than to the jock category, then they will continue to be perceived and portrayed at the bottom of the social pecking order.

Incidentally, you would think that this dynamic puts YT in an impossible position with fears of African-Americans being better athletes and of Asians being smarter. Where does YT fit in? :-)

They are very insecure. This is why they have to go out of their way to stereotype people negatively in order to make themselves feel better. It is one big propaganda. This is why they are promoting white is right and that's what will differentiate them from other people of color. Otherwise, how else they gonna feel better about themselves?

[nycjoc]

David Brooks managed to say something even my very liberal self can agree on. What's interesting is like I said before (I think); the fact that the intellectuals who do write are so busy trying to improve their self image that sometimes they do it to the detriment of others is a problem. but environment is the key. King started from the premise that at his H.S. his perceptions were not that Asian males were desexualized. It was only after doing his own research did he find there may be a problem. People don't tend to see a problem until someone shouts it from the rooftops or see the after effects. The squeaky wheel always gets the attention.

[King4aDay]

However, we must remeber that the "physical superoirity" heirarchy sterotype was not always as it is today. That's what I meant before when I was saying that in order for a steotype to survive, it must find application in some level of fact.

I mean, in 1936 Hitler and many others in the world were quite convinced that pure, blue eyed, Aryans were physically superior to all other races... but especially to Africans! You might say that it was a widely accepted sterotype within Germany and elsewhere at the time.

Of course, when Jesse Owens won four gold medals and set a new World record in both the broad jump and as part of the 400 relay team (to the complete and utter humiliation of the "Master Race") that particular sterotype began to lose credibility. Consequently, some years later, Blacks were allowed out of their "Negro Leagues" and were drafted as professional athletes in the national leagues. And the rest, as they say, is history.

But it's important to remember that the original stereotype of African-American men was that they were either physically inferior or simply lacked the kind of discipline (read "brainpower") necessary to become national athletes. The truth turned out to be somewhat different than advertised.

Now, I say all of this not to glorify the achievements of African-American athletes. I say it because stereotypes can die, they have been slain in the past. Every wrong stereotype has a weakness, and the weakness is that it ISN'T TRUE.

[King4aDay]

David Brooks managed to say something even my very liberal self can agree on. What's interesting is like I said before (I think); the fact that the intellectuals who do write are so busy trying to improve their self image that sometimes they do it to the detriment of others is a problem. but environment is the key. King started from the premise that at his H.S. his perceptions were not that Asian males were desexualized. It was only after doing his own research did he find there may be a problem. People don't tend to see a problem until someone shouts it from the rooftops or see the after effects. The squeaky wheel always gets the attention.

I completely agree with what you just said.

[nskripchun]

Incidentally, you would think that this dynamic puts YT in an impossible position with fears of African-Americans being better athletes and of Asians being smarter. Where does YT fit in? :-)

Hence, some white folks irrational fears that:

-All Black people are a physical threat to them and should be segregated away from white people in ghettos where they can kill each other.

-All Yellow people are an intellectual threat to them and should be segregated away from white people in schools, corporate america, and government.

[King4aDay]

Hence, some white folks irrational fears that:

-All Black people are a physical threat to them and should be segregated away from white people in ghettos where they can kill each other.

-All Yellow people are an intellectual threat to them and should be segregated away from white people in schools, corporate america, and government.

Touché, mon friar.

Two sides of the same stereotypical coin.

[maogirl]

well, it's nice to see that intelligent conversation still exists here.

king, one thing that westerners seem to brainwashed to believe is that blacks and asians occupy two extremes of different criteria while white people are always comfortably in the middle, ie, the normal standard by which everything should be judged against.

i don't believe just changing the media is enough, that's a simplistic solution. a wholesale destruction of the system is the only solution, but i don't think it can be done at this point.

anyway, not sure if this belongs here, but i thought some people would enjoy it:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90780/91342/6393940.html




I think with FOB Asian men a lot of the problem is probably the way they were raised. I just got out of an Abusive relationship with a tawainese guy.

did he beat you up really badly? i hope so.

[King4aDay]

king, one thing that westerners seem to brainwashed to believe is that blacks and asians occupy two extremes of different criteria while white people are always comfortably in the middle, ie, the normal standard by which everything should be judged against.

i don't believe just changing the media is enough, that's a simplistic solution. a wholesale destruction of the system is the only solution, but i don't think it can be done at this point.

We occupy the same extremes symbolically. Wouldn't you agree?

It is my observation that the media will not change until enough people's who have already changed force it to. The power to change the media grows from the power to change things in SPITE of the media!

[nycjoc]

I agree maogirl, changing the media only won't do much. The whole system needs to be destroyed. My own experience was not the same as some black folks because I was raised in a serious black pride house where my brother and I were not taught to believe or value whiteness. Even then I still was affected by the stereotypes to a certain degree. However, I was aware of it and as I got older I did what I could to protest the ignorance even if it was not spending my dime on the crap. It does take a conscious effort on the part of everyone to make a change but the problem becomes that not enough people are invested in it.

Using black culture as an example, there are what I call the weekend kente cloth type of negroes who only showed up when shit hits the fan but when its time to do the grind work their ass are no longer to be found. They want to use activist or people who make the noise to move things back to a comfortable status quo but they don’t really want to rock the boat. These fools get in the way of the most progress because when you need them when the limelight isn’t shining these folks are no where to be found.

I think it’s the same from what I’m reading with Asian Americans issues. It seems you have activist busting their asses to get things done only to be dragged down by those who really don’t want change for the whole, just something that benefits them in the short term. Then as soon as their ass gets in trouble here they come begging for your assistance. If I’m wrong please correct me but it something that I found as a common complaint among those who are trying to tackling racism and sexism.

I agree there is an assumption that white is the middle ground but again that is because I think many poc have a mentally that normal is ‘white’ behavior. It’s about acceptance of what as seen as the dominate culture that many poc are a slave to at this moment. It has been internalized by my grandparents and some older relatives in my family but I’m more disturbed by it when people in my generation or younger have internalized it. That is why I believe that although the media isn’t the only way to change things it’s a beginning because in this image/media driven country that’s a hell of a place to start.

[King4aDay]

Using black culture as an example, there are what I call the weekend kente cloth type of negroes who only showed up when shit hits the fan but when its time to do the grind work their ass are no longer to be found. They want to use activist or people who make the noise to move things back to a comfortable status quo but they don’t really want to rock the boat. These fools get in the way of the most progress because when you need them when the limelight isn’t shining these folks are no where to be found.


Quite true. But there are always lazy people in any movement. It's a problem that's without a solution, until we find a way of changing human nature with lazer beams. The African-American community has much of it's power because we're a monolithic voting block. That's not necessarily always a good thing but it gives us a lot of leverage with the Democratic Party (and hardly any with the Republicans)

[maogirl]

^^ oh wow, i love you. (this is for nyjoc)

i absolutely agree that changing the media is a first step, but it seems like a lot of people get the idea of "representation" wrong. they think it's enough that non-white faces are "represented" but at the end of the day, we're still playing by white people's rules.

it's why i have a problem with feminism -- most of them are simply trying to either be like men or take male privilege for themselves without questioning the whole idea of gender and sexuality in the first fucking place.

and a lot of the "activism" i see follows the same line, especially in teh US.

this reminds me of an interview that harvey fierstein did ages ago defending why he always plays effeminate gay roles, and he said that it was enough that people were aware that gays exist, that they weren't invisible in the media.

i understand his point because he's from an older generation where gays were hidden away, but there's a problem with representation for the sake of representation -- it's still all about eating crumbs from the white man's table when we should be questioning why the table exists in the first place.

and in this retarded PC world, non-white activists tend to fight for the most ridiculous noble savage type of representation, which i think is just as damaging.

king, i agree with your statements.

[King4aDay]

Then let me ask this because I don't know it.

What exactly is the base of Asian politcal power? What is it, and how has it been used?

[etain]

well, it's nice to see that intelligent conversation still exists here.

king, one thing that westerners seem to brainwashed to believe is that blacks and asians occupy two extremes of different criteria while white people are always comfortably in the middle, ie, the normal standard by which everything should be judged against.

i don't believe just changing the media is enough, that's a simplistic solution. a wholesale destruction of the system is the only solution, but i don't think it can be done at this point.

anyway, not sure if this belongs here, but i thought some people would enjoy it:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90780/91342/6393940.html




did he beat you up really badly? i hope so.

Does anyone see shades of Booker T. Washington vs W.E.B. Dubois here? Do you work within the system or do you work to overturn the system? Or maybe a better question is, do we currently have either?

The media is an X-factor, because it's infinitely more influential now than it was in the time of Booker T. and W.E.B. You could argue that it is actually occupying the role of the system, or is another factor within the system. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

[nycjoc]

I do see it etain because its that slip that has been driving me crazy for the last twenty years. I've been fight identity issues inside and outside my 'racial' group but it is daunting because finding a balance is a pain in the ass. Let me think about that one. I do also agree the media is a factor. Most of the work has to be done within the racial/ethnic community as it shapes and defines its own image and political voice.

I have the same question too King; What is the Asian American based? If the situation can been seen as similar to Black people it would seem that the base is ever changing and that different groups are trying to affect different things. You're right, since Black people vote as a block we tend to have more political power but that is because we are viewed and screwed over as a block for the most part. It makes it seem like Black peole stick to together though that is far from the truth. I think it primarily has something to do with beening the squeaky wheel. We tend to shout the loudest so people sometimes tend to jump on our issues. What will it take for that same reaction to Asian American concerns especially in an environment that many poc and whites don't believe that Asian Americans are suffering any injustices? If you don't think so ask somebody on the street. Check out how many blank stares you get.

Don't forget that folks love to call poc paranoid when we point out the racial injustices we face.

[King4aDay]

Does anyone see shades of Booker T. Washington vs W.E.B. Dubois here? Do you work within the system or do you work to overturn the system?

"All of this has happened before, and it will happen again" lol

[kimtae]

Quoted for truth:i understand his point because he's from an older generation where gays were hidden away, but there's a problem with representation for the sake of representation -- it's still all about eating crumbs from the white man's table when we should be questioning why the table exists in the first place. Where you been MG? Missed you around here.

Good question on the base of Asian(-American) political power, King. It's very fragmented as one would expect from a small minority group. There are a few regional sectors that have made some local progress (Gary Locke in Washington, Inoue in Hawaii, Jay Kim in LA for example) and a few surprising individuals in unusual places (Booby Jindal in La) but there is no national broadbased agenda. The Activist groups aren't even really united and nobody can be a called a real Asian-American leader as yet. I guess you sould have to say it's still being formed.

[King4aDay]

Good question on the base of Asian(-American) political power, King. It's very fragmented as one would expect from a small minority group. There are a few regional sectors that have made some local progress (Gary Locke in Washington, Inoue in Hawaii, Jay Kim in LA for example) and a few surprising individuals in unusual places (Booby Jindal in La) but there is no national broadbased agenda. The Activist groups aren't even really united and nobody can be a called a real Asian-American leader as yet. I guess you sould have to say it's still being formed.

If that is true then comparing the recently developed taboos of racism against Blacks with that of Asians may not be a sound comparison. Our struggle in America has been long--hundreds of years, in fact. And we have never been considered a "model minority."

But some of you are angry now. maybe the model is broken

[nycjoc]

I think ur right King, the black struggle may not be a good comparison but the fact is it takes people getting tired before thengs jump off. Interesting point kimtae.

[King4aDay]

I think ur right King, the black struggle may not be a good comparison but the fact is it takes people getting tired before thengs jump off. Interesting point kimtae.

I think you're right. Last night Apollyon said that he believed that cultural politics was a zero sum game. I've been thinking about that.

I agreed with him last night that the White power structure would have to lose power in order for the minority interest to gain power. What neither of us said directly was that it would also be necessary for we African-Americans to lose some of our power in order to share it with other minorities.

Would you be O.K. with that, nycjoc?

[nycjoc]

I think its inevitable if we really want to see all poc uplifted. I don't think that it has to be so detrimental. I think the problem is a trust issue. Most poc of color of one group don't trust poc of the other. As a result losing any real or perceive power, it frightens people, look how it was played out this primary with discussion of black vs. Latino (no questions at all about Asians). People fear that one minority group will oppress them and neglect any of their concerns for themselves. POC have internalized seriously the divide and conquer mentality.

[tkguy]

I think it was either somewhere withinin the " What White People Like" or the "What Asian People Like" reply posts, but I cant be 100% as I was jumping around.

You write about some site that mentioned this forum and claimed that we are a bunch bitter asian men. Why won't you reveal the site? got something to hide? Seems like a lot of black people are coming from this site.

and regarding your white female friend you wrote.

I suppose she's as entitled to her delusions as I am to mine.

So you are saying that you don't see a problem with racial fetishes in any interracial relationship so long as both involved parties have them. Then you write all this stuff about stereotypes. trying to make it seem like you denounce them.

Do you mind that I came here and for that reason?

to promote your racial fetish agenda? Of course I mind.

You quote mlk and preach that we need to get along.

And you support AM/BF relationships? What does a black man have to do with AM/BF relationships? this is rhetorical question. You know you are one of many black men who professed their support for AM/BF relationships here? this is racist shit.

I can not believe people are buying this.

[King4aDay]

I think its inevitable if we really want to see all poc uplifted. I don't think that it has to be so detrimental. I think the problem is a trust issue. Most poc of color of one group don't trust poc of the other. As a result losing any real or perceive power loss frightens people, look how it was played out this primary with discussion. People fear that the opther group will oppress them and neglect any other their concerns for themselves. POC have internalized seriously the divide and conquer mentality.

Incredibly well said. But you're right, I think it is inevitable. I guess we'll all just have to learn to trust. And be trustworthy.

[King4aDay]

You write about some site that mentioned this forum and claimed that we are a bunch bitter asian men. Why won't you reveal the site? got something to hide? Seems like a lot of black people are coming from this site.

and regarding your white female friend you wrote.



So you are saying that you don't see a problem with racial fetishes in any interracial relationship so long as both involved parties have them. Then you write all this stuff about stereotypes. trying to make it seem like you denounce them.



to promote your racial fetish agenda? Of course I mind.

You quote mlk and preach that we need to get along.

And you support AM/BF relationships? What does a black man have to do with AM/BF relationships? this is rhetorical question. You know you are one of many black men who professed their support for AM/BF relationships here? this is racist shit.

I can not believe people are buying this.

I'm sorry that I upset you tkguy. I really was surfing around and I wasn't taking notes on the site jumps. I'm sure you can find many sites that say similar things if you like.

Are you sure you're alright tkguy... you sound a little... out of it?

[Apollyon]

I for one am appreciative of the dialog we are having here. Its time that POC communities start building bridges instead of burning them. If there are problems and issues we may have with each other, then by all means lets talk about them in an intelligent respectful manner with the understanding that we are trying to achieve something positive.

[King4aDay]

I for one am appreciative of the dialog we are having here. Its time that POC communities start building bridges instead of burning them. If there are problems and issues we may have with each other, then by all means lets talk about them in an intelligent respectful manner with the understanding that we are trying to achieve something positive.

I'm with you, Apollyon. If there are a lot more Black people on this site, of late, then it is either a problem to be rapidly corrected, or an opportunity to be taken advantage of. I've been asking many questions (maybe too many) about the Asian culture because I am interested. It would therefore be fair for anyone to ask me (or I imagine any other Black member) questions about the Black culture and our attitudes about things as well. As you say, if there are problems between us why not talk about them? I, for one, would be ready to listen to any grievance or give an honest answer to any question.

[nightshade]

There is no problem with black people being on this site. Ignore the retard.

[King4aDay]

Done.

Thanks

[etain]

There is no problem with black people being on this site. Ignore the retard.

I disagree. Having them here makes my penis feel small. Now I'm going to go bind my sister's feet to make it feel large again.

[elliott20]

I disagree. Having them here makes my penis feel small. Now I'm going to go bind my sister's feet to make it feel large again.

LOL, nice.

King4aday, I think the big problem with this kind of thing is that most people are not willing to take the first step. You are obviously the exception where you actually went out of your way and looked into it. And because you yourself is part of a minority that suffers the flipside of the same treatment, you can empathize. This, however, is hardest part. That first step often means you have break down your perception of how things work first, and that's a first step that a lot of people simply cannot do without having their pride feeling somehow a little bruised.

[RebelAzn]

Minorities are now 1/3 of USA population. If Blacks, Asians and Latinos learn to work together to speak up against some of the social injustice, things might actually change. However, there is still huge distrust between all the communities and that's one of the major issues all the minority communities face.

I don't know what is the answer to the problem. I do know we need more people like King who are willing to go out of their way to try to understand someone else's point of view.

[elliott20]

Perhaps the effort can be done through not just imploring the other minority groups to look into our issues, but for us to take the lead and look into theirs and stand by their struggles as well. For one, trust is something that needs to be built over time. while a lot of minority groups (be the division gender, sexuality, race, or religion) fight the same fight, we often do so on independantly, with vastly different agendas and different social consciousness driving each movement. The diverse differences and agendas, unfortunately, also creates a gulf in our expectations and how we see one another.

Perhaps, if asian minority groups can reach out to help other minority groups with their endeavors, there can be better trust.

[nycjoc]

I think there are common themes that we can begin to build on that I believe we can united but there are always going to be issues that are more specific to a given group. I think there needs to be a realistic understanding that we will not always a gree but it can be something that is fatal to coalition building. Trust is the issue. One has to trust that some of the issues facing one community that has to be addressed does not need to be to the detriment of another community. we can't keep fighting an hoarding the same crumb. so talking and making the effort to educate ourself takes away the mystic of it all.

Another problem is the fact that it seems that activist in every community has to keep reinventing the wheel meaning that there is issues of constantly having to rally the troops so that things can get done for that community in general. It makes coalition building a tad hard too.

[elliott20]

there are clearly common themes that crosses almost every minority group. That much we can agree on. And yes, there are always going to be issues that divides the groups. This is the "what" of racial minority divide. The bigger question, is how do we go about creating trust.

That is why I say there needs to be an outreach to other groups. We can't just be asking them to form coalitions with us. We should step up and support their causes that we can agree with.

[nycjoc]

I do agree with you on this point. Hell I've argued with people about this until the cows come home. It's one of the reason that go to various blogs, read international news papers and book about issues face poc but I tell you the first thing that has to happen is snapping people out of this idea that there oppression is worst than the next guy. The oppression pissing constant stands in the way of that. Then next we have to just support issues of other people. I have said this in the past and even now to my own community when I'm at meetings or rallies, we can't just support ourselves and not there when others are oppressed. Because when you do that no one has your back. But the main problem is Desire...

Elliott maybe you know that half the problem is getting people to willingly listen to someone else's problems and getting folks to do that is hard. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try but it's a head bumping process. Maybe it will take a moment where those willing to work with others air out all the grievances (real or not) that one community has with another and then talk about like an adult, afterwards finding a common ground that we can all work. I'm not sure.

Another problem is the fact that communities are not monolithic so what I may down for doesn't necessarily work for some people. Remember not all skin folks are your kin folks. It’s going to start off with a few who are willing and they have to lead by example. It’s going to take honest dealing and an ability to let go of stereotypes. It will take a willingness to learn. I don't know, as I write this I'm typing on something that has been marinating in my brain for years and still haven't come up with a solution. So I do my part of educating, listening and speaking out hoping it will have some impact.

[King4aDay]

I do agree with you on this point. Hell I've argued with people about this until the cows come home... I have said this in the past and even now to my own community when I'm at meetings or rallies, we can't just support ourselves and not there when others are oppressed. Because when you do that no one has your back...

Oh man, have I been there myself! Nobody wins in a competition of tears. Nobody's sorrow can ever compare to your own. But yet another problem (in my opinion) in the Black community, is the sensitivity to prejudice to the point that every possible slight or preference by other races gets chalked up to blatant prejudice. Not to say that it is NEVER a legitimate charge, but the race card is often such a dialogue killer that we seem to never get past trading accusations.

One of the things that attracted me to this site is that the POC here don't take any BS or guilt trippin'. If they think you're full of it, they just tell you. It's rather refreshing.

[King4aDay]

King4aday, I think the big problem with this kind of thing is that most people are not willing to take the first step. You are obviously the exception where you actually went out of your way and looked into it. And because you yourself is part of a minority that suffers the flipside of the same treatment, you can empathize. This, however, is hardest part. That first step often means you have break down your perception of how things work first, and that's a first step that a lot of people simply cannot do without having their pride feeling somehow a little bruised.

You may be right about that but there seem to be many such "exceptions" here on this site doing the same thing, if we are to take tkguy at his word.

I want to be honest in telling you that most of the black guys that I know have very little idea what's going on within the Asian community. That would include me, except for what I've learned recently by reading here and in a few other places.

What we see is that Asians very often seem to live in White neighborhoods, and therefore attend the same schools as Whites, and there seem to be an awful lot of Asian/White interracial couples. I never really even noticed that they were all WM/AF couples! I just assumed that it must be going the other way as well... after all, why wouldn't it?

It wasn't until I began reading about it on the internet that I really began looking around and thought, WTF???!