An Apology to the 44 and to "Crazy Asian" Men in General

[Tyger Durden]

...Everything has a price. Our price was the expungement of our history...

What history are you referring to? The history of Blacks before the arrival to the Americas or afterwards? Obviously the history after coming to America (the Slave Era onwards) is easier to substantiate and has been recorded in books.

The history before the Slave Trade is there for the person who does heavier research and has the patience and willingness to do so. Don't be surprised to read about (militarily) stronger African Tribes actually going out and capturing weaker Tribes for the White Man (prone to malaria) and how the West Coast of Africa was under Muslim control from the 10th Century onwards and that Arabs may have enslaved Blacks before the White Man even came into the picture.

Do more research if you feel it has been permanently expunged (it hasn't) for you or Blacks in general and don't go around implying that one "price" for Unity was more exacting or devastating on one culture/ethnicity than another while residing on the former land of the Red Man.

There are plenty of immigrants (Asian and otherwise) and their descendants who came to America as refugees from a War, owning nothing but the shirt on their back and survived, with some becoming successful. And to this very minute, there are plenty of people whose ancestors arrive from Third World countries with conditions no better than that of present-day Africa. Maybe they can't go back because their village is bombed out or covered with Agent Orange.

Maybe somebody feels working in a sweatshop for NIKE or picking coffee beans for 25 cents a day in Columbia is truly slave-labor or having your relatives taken away in the middle of the night for speaking put against the government and forcing to keep silent the rest of your life is having their current history expunged.

There is no "price" to compare. It's all relative and depends on who you're talking to.

You brought up something along the lines of "perception being your reality" when observing Asian cohesiveness earlier. Well, learn to accept other people's perceptions of their reality.

[King4aDay]

Tyger Durden;41084]What history are you referring to? The history of Blacks before the arrival to the Americas or afterwards? Obviously the history after coming to America (the Slave Era onwards) is easier to substantiate and has been recorded in books.

No, I was referring to the before-slavery tribal history in the context of subgroup origins.

The history before the Slave Trade is there for the person who does heavier research and has the patience and willingness to do so. Don't be surprised to read about (militarily) stronger African Tribes actually going out and capturing weaker Tribes for the White Man (prone to malaria) and how the West Coast of Africa was under Muslim control from the 10th Century onwards and that Arabs may have enslaved Blacks before the White Man even came into the picture.

Hahaha! Be at peace, Brother Tyger, you cannot surprise me with my own history! But I do understand why you might try. I too have met many Black "pseudo-historians" who try to paint a picture that Africans were completely innocent victims and ONLY the White man was to blame. They have also been guilty of propagating the idea (among African-Americans) that Africa was an edenic utopia, free from greed, vice, and discord. I am not one of those, such claims are pure nonsense. Men are men and both the potential and practice of every human failing is in us all.

Do more research if you feel it has been permanently expunged (it hasn't) for you or Blacks in general

I'm afraid that our small disagreement stems from a misunderstanding of what history I was referring to. In the context of the subject, I was speaking of tribal, national, or familial history. In other words, I was saying that most African-Americans aren't capable of engaging in disunity based on tribal/national divisions simply because we don't know what tribe or nation each of us originally have come from.

...And don't go around implying that one "price" for Unity was more exacting or devastating on one culture/ethnicity than another while residing on the former land of the Red Man.

I'm genuinely sorry that you perceived my statements in that way. But I assure you, that in this case, your interpretation is purely eisegetical.

I simply asked a question about how Asian-American vs. African-American unity could be contrasted. The responses that I received (from other posters) indicated that African-American political/social unity was more cohesive.

So rather than assume the Blacks have a superior unity gene I looked toward a sociological explanation. If one group has a thing that another group does not have, it is usually because a "price" of some kind has been payed for it.

EXAMPLE: Asian-Americans (as a sociological grouping) have paid a higher "price" of education and discipline than have African-American's (as a sociological grouping) and therefore enjoy greater economic advantage.

You see? There's no racist magic here, it's just a cause and effect comparison.

*And as for the Native Americans, they certainly have some of the strongest tribal links of any group in this country. Please remember, Tyger, that this particular discussion is about assimilation, division, and unity. We can discuss oppression, if you wish, but that is not the main point at this juncture.

There are plenty of immigrants (Asian and otherwise) and their descendants who came to America as refugees from a War, owning nothing but the shirt on their back and survived, with some becoming successful. And to this very minute, there are plenty of people whose ancestors arrive from Third World countries with conditions no better than that of present-day Africa. Maybe they can't go back because their village is bombed out or covered with Agent Orange.

Maybe somebody feels working in a sweatshop for NIKE or picking coffee beans for 25 cents a day in Columbia is truly slave-labor or having your relatives taken away in the middle of the night for speaking put against the government and forcing to keep silent the rest of your life is having their current history expunged.

There is no "price" to compare. It's all relative and depends on who you're talking to.

You brought up something along the lines of "perception being your reality" when observing Asian cohesiveness earlier. Well, learn to accept other people's perceptions of their reality.

As I said before, I think the problem is that you have interpreted the presence of racial oppression in a discussion as tantamount to the discussion being about racial oppression. And I don't believe that this one necessarily is.

[Tyger Durden]

...I'm afraid that our small disagreement stems from a misunderstanding of what history I was referring to. In the context of the subject, I was speaking of tribal, national, or familial history. In other words, I was saying that most African-Americans aren't capable of engaging in disunity based on tribal/national divisions simply because we don't know what tribe or nation each of us originally have come from....



Then that must be a good thing.

[King4aDay]

Then that must be a good thing.

No, it's just a tradeoff—And an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

[Tyger Durden]

You said African-Americans may not be capable of engaging in disunity based on tribal/national divisions simply because they don't know what tribe or nation they originally have come, but I'm sure disunity still exists.

You brought up how there are two Black Americas, one ghetto, the other with higher values. I'm sure there is also disunity based on the darkness and lightness of skin color. I'm sure there is a disunity between the Afro-centric Blacks and the pluralistic Blacks. I'm sure there is a disunity based on what it means to be "Black" and how to measure "Blackness". I'm sure there is disunity between those that speak "good" English and those that speak "street", those that have achieved higher education and those that learned from the school of hard knocks.

The chances of a Black Male being killed by another Black Male is higher than by other ethnicities, so there is some degree of disunity going on in that community.

[King4aDay]

You said African-Americans may not be capable of engaging in disunity based on tribal/national divisions simply because they don't know what tribe or nation they originally have come, but I'm sure it still exists.

You brought up how there are two Black Americas, one ghetto, the other with higher values. I'm sure there is also disunity based on the darkness and lightness of skin color. I'm sure there is a disunity between the Afro-centric Blacks and the pluralistic Blacks. I'm sure there is a disunity based on what it means to be "Black" and how to measure "Blackness". I'm sure there is disunity between those that speak "good" English and those that speak "street, those that have achieved higher education and those that learned from the school of hard knocks.

The chances of a Black Male being killed by another Black Male is higher than by other ethnicities, so there is some degree of disunity going on in that community.

All quite true, but my point was not to say that there is NO disunity among Black people at all, it was to say that the tribe-of-origin, religion-of-origin, and nation-of-origin disunity had been removed. And those are all very big factors in dividing peoples worldwide.

That doesn't mean that African-Americans get a free pass to UnityLand or anything, it just has given us a certain kind of advantage in this area, which is offset by the many disadvantages that such circumstance also brings. Don't think of this as a qualitative theory, just see it as a causal explanation of an observed phenomenon.

Otherwise you can simply disagree with the previous posters and say:

"I don't think that African American unity is really any more cohesive than in any other racial group."

And if that is true, then the statement will stand on it's own legs.

[Tyger Durden]

Otherwise you can simply disagree with the previous posters and say:

"I don't think that African American unity is really any more cohesive than in any other racial group."

And if that is true, then the statement will stand on it's own legs.


Yeah, that's right. African-American unity isn't any more cohesive than any other racial/ethnic group.

I think during Black History Month you see examples of extreme unity from the 1960s during the Civil Rights Era and people think that was a permanent condition, but when the middle-class of Blacks grew larger it created other problems and caused people to wonder "what happened"? In other words, Blacks are still trying to achieve the unity depicted in the 1960-1970s that was brought about by extraordinary circumstances and other ethnic groups still expect them to have that "Black Power" unity.

Frankly, I think Latinos stick together as much any ethnic group in America, but you have to go to the Barrio to find out or live in one.

[King4aDay]

Yeah, that's right. African-American unity isn't any more cohesive than any other racial/ethnic group.

I think during Black History Month you see examples of extreme unity from the 1960s during the Civil Rights Era and people think that was a permanent condition, but when the middle-class of Blacks grew larger it created other problems and caused people to wonder "what happened"? In other words, Blacks are still trying to achieve the unity depicted in the 1960-1970s that was brought about by extraordinary circumstances and other ethnic groups still expect them to have that "Black Power" unity.

Frankly, I think Latinos stick together as much any ethnic group in America, but you have to go to the Barrio to find out or live in one.

Excellent, that puts the cards on the table in a much more direct fashion.

Actually, I don't entirely disagree with you. Any movement that begins to become successful is immediately in danger of compromising the very motivation for its success. Most "movements" never realize the end goals set by it's originators. The Civil Rights movement is no exception.

But, I think that what you are either missing, or simply choosing not to mention, is the social progress that the "partial success" of the African-American model has achieved even in recent decades. The 1960's and 1970's were the zenith of the "street movement" however, the political and social power has grown continuously from there. In the 1970's you would not have had an African-American Presidential Nominee from either party. In the 1970's you wouldn't find a Black as a leading man or leading woman in a mainstream Hollywood movie. That is undeniable progress and answers the "What happened to the Civil Rights movement of yesterday?" question.

Remember, I'm not postulating that Black people aren't divided on other issues. I'm not saying that the Black movement is without it's own problems, it certainly is not! What I am saying is that in 2008, 92% to 94% of African American's are likely to vote for Barack Obama. Whether you agree with their choice or not, at least admit the political unity of that.

[Tyger Durden]

...But, I think that what you are either missing, or simply choosing not to mention, is the social progress that the "partial success" of the African-American model has achieved even in recent decades...


King, I mentioned "the growing Black middle-class" in my previous post. That is the definite "social progress" you felt I failed to mention.

If you read anything about what the Black Panthers were proposing (a Socialist state of sorts), then you'd realize that Blacks have come a long way from the 1960s and that the unity proposed by the Panthers was the anti-thesis of the American system and the unity present-day Blacks exist with and accept today.

What people here are either missing, or simply choosing not to mention, is how upward-mobility in Capitalist America dilutes unity and cohesiveness no matter what your ethnicity.

A Manager isn't thinking "______ Power!" when he hires somebody of his/her own ethnicity, he/she is most likely thinking Profit and the convenience in the hiring process...and maybe exploitation of his/her own kind.

A kid rolling on 22-inch rims on a lift-kit isn't thinking "______ Power!" and unity with his fellow ethnicity, he's thinking about showing off his car and how he is better than most because of his material possessions.

Call me pessimistic or even fatalistic, but unity and cohesiveness are purely Political abstractions discussed among people with time to do so. This Forum and others are perfect examples. When the get-together meeting (whether in Reality or Cyberspace) is adjourned, people hop in their cars and go home or simply log-off to live out their material pursuits. Unity and cohesiveness is temporary state of being.

About Obama as a representative of Black "Political" Unity -- I agree.

Voting for Obama may make a Person of Color (or even a liberal White American) feel like he/she is doing something worthwhile for unity and cohesiveness and the benefit of all ethnic minorities and the Nation, but to me it's only a "feeling". Good for them because it's obvious that America is still a Black and White world. People of other colors don't have to feel compelled to choose sides, but end up doing so anyways.

But the fact that a person of obvious mixed ethnicity like Obama has to carry the banner/burden of Black Folk, or feels compelled to do so, tells me that nothing much has changed in America. Despite the "social progress" you feel has been made, maybe America still has a long way to go.

[King4aDay]

First let me say that I find your posts to be well informed and well expressed. I don't regard anything that you have said to be nonsensical or prejudiced (at least not any more prejudiced than any of my posts)


If you read anything about what the Black Panthers were proposing (a Socialist state of sorts), then you'd realize that Blacks have come a long way from the 1960s and that the unity proposed by the Panthers was the anti-thesis of the American system and the unity present-day Blacks exist with and accept today.

Yeah, but the Panthers really always have been a very small and extremest fringe group. Almost nobody in the mainstream Civil Rights movements have actually supported their world view. They have been an important symbol at times, but the reality is that the Panthers never had the support necessary to carry out any of their "violent overthrow" propositions. Furthermore, it wouldn't have worked.

What people here are either missing, or simply choosing not to mention, is how upward-mobility in Capitalist America dilutes unity and cohesiveness no matter what your ethnicity.

And since the freedom of upward mobility for all people is the very goal around which we must unify, then this makes perfect sense, no?

A Manager isn't thinking "______ Power!" when he hires somebody of his/her own ethnicity, he/she is most likely thinking Profit and the convenience in the hiring process...and maybe exploitation of his/her own kind.

A kid rolling on 22-inch rims on a lift-kit isn't thinking "______ Power!" and unity with his fellow ethnicity, he's thinking about showing off his car and how he is better than most because of his material possessions.

Yes, but that's the very definition of success, is it not? When people don't have to consider race in all of their day to day decisions, or at least when it's down to #14 on their mental list, the progress has been made. True?

I mean, if race, nationality, and gender have to be in the forefront of everyone's mental calculus when making the simple and mundane decisions of life then I would think that we have lost ground, not gained it.

Call me pessimistic or even fatalistic, but unity and cohesiveness are purely Political abstractions discussed among people with time to do so. This Forum and others are perfect examples. When the get-together meeting (whether in Reality or Cyberspace) is adjourned, people hop in their cars and go home or simply log-off to live out their material pursuits. Unity and cohesiveness is temporary state of being.

STOP THAT!!! We can't have pessimism or fatalism on an activist website!! Those are two luxuries that agents of change cannot afford. Leave pessimism to the hopeless and the ignorant. Believe that there are ways of making a difference, if you do not, your very beliefs will become your limitations.

About Obama as a representative of Black "Political" Unity -- I agree.

Voting for Obama may make a Person of Color (or even a liberal White American) feel like he/she is doing something worthwhile for unity and cohesiveness and the benefit of all ethnic minorities and the Nation, but to me it's only a "feeling". Good for them because it's obvious that America is still a Black and White world. People of other colors don't have to feel compelled to choose sides, but end up doing so anyways.

But the fact that a person of obvious mixed ethnicity like Obama has to carry the banner/burden of Black Folk, or feels compelled to do so, tells me that nothing much has changed in America. Despite the "social progress" you feel has been made, maybe America still has a long way to go.

Hahahaha!! My dear Tyger, you ARE a pessimist, aren't you?!
You are looking for perfection. Don't. Allow yourself to embrace the successes that are made. Cheer up!

For the first time in 232 years a non-White male is favored to be the President of the United States. The very fact that that is finally possible signifies AMAZING progress!! It's not a question of everyone necessarily agreeing with his politics or ideas, the fact is that the possibility of such a thing has finally arrived. This is no time to suck on lemons because it's not yet a perfectly color-safe process. That moment will come just like this moment has come (in spite of the pessimists).

[Apollyon]

The sad part is that it might take another 2 hundred years or so for an Asian male to be in the same situation.

[King4aDay]

The sad part is that it might take another 2 hundred years or so for an Asian male to be in the same situation.

You're being pessimistic, Apollyon my friend. .... it's not good for you.

[Tyger Durden]

The sad part is that it might take another 2 hundred years or so for an Asian male to be in the same situation.

Agreed. A Latino may be a U.S. President before an Asian candidate due to their rapidly growing population base -- they'll equal or outnumber European-Americans (Whites) by 2050.

[King4aDay]

Agreed. A Latino may be a U.S. President before an Asian candidate due to their rapidly growing population base -- they'll equal or outnumber European-Americans (Whites) by 2050.

That may be true, but is not necessarily true. I think that Obama got where he is today because he is a handsome and charismatic, anti-war, orator who has had the good fortune of having been preceded by George Bush.

It' not as if anyone suddenly decided that "The time for an African-American Presidential Nominee has finally come and we must all vote for him now." It can be just as likely that the next charismatic figure who stumbles upon an advantageous political moment might just as well be an Asian-American.

I think that it's a mistake to believe that gains made in the African-American struggle do not translate to other groups. Asians will absolutely benefit from and be able to build upon the "Obama effect."

[Apollyon]

Hmmm... interesting... but I can't see that. For me personally I think that part of Obama's acceptability as a presidential candidate, as a black man in particular, is because of Hollywood's massive PR campaign to promote the image of black men, even replacing white male characters with black male characters.

Here's a few examples of replacements...

Wil Smith in I Am Legend
the character of Bolivar Trask in X-Men
Nick Fury in Iron Man

there have been many more, but those are the ones I've been able to pull right off the top of my head. The popularity of black men in Hollywood has never been higher with the likes of Samuel Jackson, Wil Smith, Denzel Washington tearing up the box office.

On the flip side, Asian men have been and will be removed as characters and replaced with white men in

21
Speed Racer
The Departed (the whole damn cast)
Akira

etc.

Now one can claim these are just movies, but I beg to differ. Entertainment is not just entertainment, it is also indoctrination and the huddled unwashed masses of middle America just eat it up as if it were mana from heaven.

So in effect what we have is, by consequence if not intention, a monumental PR campaign to socially uplift the image of black men in the social consciousness while marginalizing and vilifying Asian men.

I welcome your perspective and comments.

[Tyger Durden]

...I think that it's a mistake to believe that gains made in the African-American struggle do not translate to other groups. Asians will absolutely benefit from and be able to build upon the "Obama effect."...


Assuming their is such thing as an "Obama Effect", other groups that may benefit include Latinos. I think you keep mistaking their potential and strength in numbers in affecting the future of America.

Out of curiosity, maybe you can detail how the "Obama Effect" would benefit the Asian Community.

[ZhuBaJie]

That may be true, but is not necessarily true. I think that Obama got where he is today because he is a handsome and charismatic, anti-war, orator who has had the good fortune of having been proceeded by George Bush.

ZhuBaJie reporting in for the grammar police: that should be "preceeded by George Bush".

It' not as if anyone suddenly decided that "The time for an African-American Presidential Nominee has finally come and we must all vote for him now." It can be just as likely that the next charismatic figure who stumbles upon an advantageous political moment might just as well be an Asian-American.

I think that it's a mistake to believe that gains made in the African-American struggle do not translate to other groups. Asians will absolutely benefit from and be able to build upon the "Obama effect."

i think we're basically heading into the issue of whether or not Obama being black helped him win the nomination, and possibly the presidency. i know a lot of black people don't like hearing it, but personally i think his race did help. yeah black people are still being shat upon by American society. but there are things like white guilt and the magic negro stereotype to consider. it's precisely because black people are still being shat upon that lets those white liberal hippy types think of themselves as so brave and progressive because they're voting for a black man.

i'm not convinced that he's the black political second coming that so many of his supporters think he is. but just on foreign policy and the war alone, he's a lot better than McCain. it's trade and the economy that worry me if Obama gets into the White House though.

[ZhuBaJie]

Nick Fury in Iron Man

Hollywood didn't do this one. it was Marvel in its Ultimate storyline.

[King4aDay]

Hmmm... interesting... but I can't see that. For me personally I think that part of Obama's acceptability as a presidential candidate, as a black man in particular, is because of Hollywood's massive PR campaign to promote the image of black men, even replacing white male characters with black male characters.

[A few good examples of these replacements were cited...]

Now one can claim these are just movies, but I beg to differ. Entertainment is not just entertainment, it is also indoctrination and the huddled unwashed masses of middle America just eat it up as if it were mana from heaven.

So in effect what we have is, by consequence if not intention, a monumental PR campaign to socially uplift the image of black men in the social consciousness while marginalizing and vilifying Asian men.

I welcome your perspective and comments.

Well yes Apollyon. You're absolutely right about the image of Black men (and women) in Hollywood. Surely dramatic improvements have been made just as you have pointed out. And furthermore, these image improvements have subtly changed both the perceptions and rules-of-play on the political field.

In other words, this current climate of cinematic image improvement has helped to create the conditions within which Obama's good fortune could actually be capitalized upon. In 1975, the conditions simply did not exist no matter how handsome, charismatic, or lucky, a Black candidate might have been.

Of course, to be fair, we must also admit that the current Hollywood movement is a very late response to almost 100 years of decidedly negative portrayals of African-Americans reaching back to "Birth of a Nation" (1915).

Blacks were certainly not the only ones to be negatively portrayed in the cinema. Yet, Blacks were the minority most often to be negatively portrayed in the American cinema (and television) as either bloodthirsty criminals, indolent and witless sluggards, or obsequious and servile shoeshine boys for years and years. And this message was constant, pervasive, and exported to every corner of the globe where the technology to reproduce it was readily available. You are simply never going to find the same cumulative number of negative representations of Asians or even of Latins in the American cinema in the past century.

So, now that thankfully, some of the very serious damage is being addressed (and it will take more than 10 or 20 years to erase 100 years of negative PR) We begin to see Black lead characters not 'REPLACING" White characters onscreen, but rather simply not being excluded from the roles that once were considered "White Only." And this is the key.

African-Americans were the first race to be vilified onscreen. That's not an opinion or conjecture, that's on the celluloid. And now Blacks are also among the first to break the "Whites Only" restrictions for leading cinematic roles.

It doesn't really matter who is the first to do it, what matters is that the U.S. population begins to understand and become comfortable with the idea that non-Whites can lead the marquee for a movie. If a Black actor can lead, I think it becomes much easier to imagine that an Asian can lead too.

ACTUALLY you've asked such a good question and made such good points that I can't address it all in one post. I still need to speak to the trend of clearly Asian-natural roles being given to White actors. This is another thing that I was not aware of. How long has this been going on? Has it been a constant practice since the days of Charlie Chan and Mr. Yunioshi?

[King4aDay]

Assuming their is such thing as an "Obama Effect", other groups that may benefit include Latinos. I think you keep mistaking their potential and strength in numbers in affecting the future of America.

Yes, you're right, but it's a possibility. It also may be a possibility that an Asian-American politician might arise and become President before that happens.

Out of curiosity, maybe you can detail how the "Obama Effect" would benefit the Asian Community.

Well, I think that it would knock down the "Whites Only" sign on the road to the White House. If an African-American can do the job, I think it becomes apparent that other minorities would be just as capable.

Heck, ask the Homosexual movement whether they believe that victories aggregate from one social minority group to another.

[Tyger Durden]

Yes, you're right, but it's a possibility. It also may be a possibility that an Asian-American politician might arise and become President before that happens...

I still think Apollyon is correct (post #265 above) about why that might not happen for Asians -- there has been one giant PR machine rolling for Blacks since the 1960-1970s that uplifts the image of Blacks, but vilifies and marginalizes Asians.

You say (paraphrasing) "Blacks will open the way for others..." but why would they step aside for another minority after gaining power? Wouldn't Obama benefit even more Blacks getting into Political Office and not necessarily other ethnic minority candidates?

[King4aDay]

I still think Apollyon is correct (post #265 above) about why that might not happen for Asians -- there has been one giant PR machine rolling for Blacks since the 1960-1970s that uplifts the image of Blacks, but vilifies and marginalizes Asians.

Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it. Although I rather think of it more as an "Unfair Negative Image Correction Machine" that's been sitting in the garage getting rusty for years when it should have been in use all along. I also don't see the "pro-Black machine" as necessarily being equivalent to the "anti-Asian machine." Although, both machines may be parked in Hollywood among all of those wonderfully open minded entertainment folk.

You say (paraphrasing) "Blacks will open the way for others..." but why would they step aside for another minority after gaining power? Wouldn't Obama benefit even more Blacks getting into Political Office and not necessarily other ethnic minority candidates?

As to your question about stepping aside, I agree that Black politicians wouldn't. No politician can ever be trusted to do that. But fortunately, it's not up to them. Obama is not riding a wave of Black political power, in fact at the very moment that he is perceived as a "Black Power" candidate, he's done. If every Black man, woman, and child in America voted for Obama twice it would not be enough to get him elected if other races didn't also support him. If White women alone do not vote for him overwhelmingly in November, he will lose the election.

Obama is riding a wave of pluralism or diversity acceptance power, and that is what would benefit all minorities including Asians. He doesn't have, and therefore Blacks don't have, some kind of permanent power base because of his nomination. I think that it simply opens a mental door for the Country to get beyond skin color as being quite so all important in selecting our leaders. That's a good thing, no?

[King4aDay]

I also must say that I feel that there is a flaw in the arguments as to how and why this "pro-Black PR machine" was ever created in the first place.

From my understanding of the comments in previous posts, the agreed upon scenario goes something like this:

Historically, Blacks have gotten the shaft in the US of A. But then the hippies were born and they felt sorry about all that. They developed the philosophy of "White Guilt" and so decided to "give a brotha a break." So, ever since the 1960s, the Hollywood hippies have been promoting positive Black stereotypes in the movies and on television and that's why Obama beat Hillary.

The only problem is that that's not how it happened at all.

Well into the 1970s and 80's and even the early 90's there were still many negative stereotypes (http://www.blackrefer.com/black_film2.html) being propagated through the media. The scenario, as I have described above, leaves out the important and pivotal fact that Black activists have been fighting your benevolent entertainment hippies (better known as ruthless and greedy Hollywood Movie Executives) tooth and nail almost continuously for the redress of harm that they have done to the Black community through their dissemination of false and negative stereotypes. And this is the only REAL reason why things have changed.

So, of course I must ask you a very real questions that I honestly don't know the answer to:

1) Are Asian activists going to Hollywood everyday and giving them hell over this?
2) Are they writing articles in the Hollywood Reporter, threatening boycotts, and picketing studios entrances and movie lots?

Because African-American activists most certainly are, and that is most assuredly what it takes. You see, jumping on perceived prejudice in Hollywood and elsewhere has become somewhat of a national pastime with us Blacks. In fact we've become so used to it that we often jump on prejudices that aren't even there!

You can usually get more Black young adults to march for the rights of equal education than you can get to actually attend and graduate from the college that they're picketing.

Asians tend to be the mirror opposite. I think African-Americans have a lot to learn from the Asian-American model. The reverse is also true.

[Tyger Durden]

As to your question about stepping aside, I agree, the Black politicians wouldn't. No politician can ever be trusted to do that. But fortunately, it's not up to them. Obama is not riding a wave of Black political power, in fact at the very moment that he is perceived as a "Black Power" candidate, he's done. If every Black man, woman, and child in America voted for Obama twice it would not be enough to get him elected if other races didn't also support him. If White women alone do not vote for him overwhelmingly in November, he will lose the election.

Obama is riding a wave of pluralism or diversity acceptance power, and that is what would benefit all minorities including Asians. He doesn't have, and therefore Blacks don't have, some kind of permanent power base because of his nomination. I think that it simply opens a mental door for the Country to get beyond skin color as being quite so all important in selecting our leaders. That's a good thing, no?




We have to wait and see until after the Presidential Election to see the breakdown of Voters according to Ethnicity, but my gut instinct tells me there are enough Liberal Whites in America to swing the election in Obama's favor by virtue of the majority population of Whites in general. These Liberal Whites are people that grew up in the last 20-40 and were exposed to the Pro-Black PR Machine that Apollyon and I believe to truly exist. Sorry, but the existence of this PR Machine is our perception of the matter.

About his nomination, much less his impending victory, yes, it is a good thing in that it will open the mental door that blocks progress due to a bias against ethnic minorities and skin color, but again, I wonder what Ethnicity will be allowed to step through that door more often than others. Because of that impression, I believe it will be many years before a candidate from another minority group makes it as far as Obama. I believe a "prioritization" is taking place in which the wrongs addressed to Blacks are on the forefront of the guilty conscious of White Folk and the rest will have to abide their time and wait or altogether ignored and left out. This what is means to be "marginalized" and that is the case with Asians and other ethnic groups who are perceived to be too small in numbers to be significant in America.

Certainly the Red Man should have been first, but I believe that the Latinos won't be "allowed" to step through the door with the liberal graciousness of Whites -- in the future they will break down the door with a voting bloc that will rival Whites in terms of sheer numbers.

Personally, I don't dislike Obama at all. I just feel that in an America that carried less historical baggage between Blacks and Whites, he would not looked be upon as strictly a "Black" candidate by everybody still playing the White Man's 300-year old Slave Rules of who and what is "Black" in America. He would be looked upon as a person who happened to be of mixed-ethnicity doing his best to change a colorblind America. Unrealistic, but that would be ideal.

[King4aDay]

We have to wait and see until after the Presidential Election to see the breakdown of Voters according to Ethnicity, but my gut instinct tells me there are enough Liberal Whites in America to swing the election in Obama's favor by virtue of the majority population of Whites in general. These Liberal Whites are people that grew up in the last 20-40 and were exposed to the Pro-Black PR Machine that Apollyon and I believe to truly exist. Sorry, but the existence of this PR Machine is our perception of the matter.

Are these the same Liberal "hard working" Whites that were in Hillary's camp during the latter half of the primary season, or are we talking about someone else?

About his nomination, much less his impending victory, yes, it is a good thing in that it will open the mental door that blocks progress due to a bias against ethnic minorities and skin color...

Well, thank you for acknowledging that. This is good news, for Asians and for other minorities. We simply have to stop and recognize these small and hopeful victories along the way, or else our entire vision becomes tarnished with gloom and dispair.

...but again, I wonder what Ethnicity will be allowed to step through that door more often than others. Because of that impression, I believe it will be many years before a candidate from another minority group makes it as far as Obama. I believe a "prioritization" is taking place in which the wrongs addressed to Blacks are on the forefront of the guilty conscious of White Folk and the rest will have to abide their time and wait or altogether ignored and left out. This what is means to be "marginalized" and that is the case with Asians and other ethnic groups who are perceived to be too small in numbers to be significant in America.

Allowed? Do you really think that this is such a controllable process? Do you think that Barack Hussein Obama was somehow selected beforehand and simply ALLOWED to defeat an entire field of seasoned, White, (and 1 Hispanic) candidates? Did Hillary and Bill allow it too? I think that your concept of political control gives much more power to the entrenched establishment than it actually possesses.

This election year was a genuine surprise. Anyone in politics will tell you that the person who was "supposed to be" the Democratic Nominee was, without a doubt, Hillary Clinton. And if one surprise can occur, then another might just as well happen. I think that an Asian-American candidate, in the right place and at the right time, would be totally electable once the "White's Only" sign is down at the White House.

Certainly the Red Man should have been first, but I believe that the Latinos won't be "allowed" to step through the door with the liberal graciousness of Whites -- in the future they will break down the door with a voting bloc that will rival Whites in terms of sheer numbers.

I don't believe that this is a case of racial reparations by Presidential placement. The point is not to begin with Native Americans and then cycle through the next appropriately oppressed group on the list. The point is to take color off of the table so that ANYONE who has good policy and good ideas can lead. The color of the person in charge should become a non-issue.

Personally, I don't dislike Obama at all. I just feel that in an America that carried less historical baggage between Blacks and Whites, he would not looked be upon as strictly a "Black" candidate by everybody still playing the White Man's 300-year old Slave Rules of who and what is "Black" in America. He would be looked upon as a person who happened to be of mixed-ethnicity doing his best to change a colorblind America. Unrealistic, but that would be ideal.

I can assure you, that if Obama were truly looked upon as only a "Black Candidate" then he would get no closer to the presidency than Jesse Jackson did in 1984. I personally don't think that Obama is a savior. To be honest, I think he could use another four years in the Senate, but he has caught the wind of history in his sails, so for him, the moment is now. If he is elected, I hope he will be a good President, not a "Black President."

[Tyger Durden]

Dude, it's your thread, so you can have the last word. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think you're necessarily right. I stand by every statement I made in this thread and feel I'm right.

I admire others like Apollyon for providing insight and saying what I would say, but even better, and also to ZBJ for being very blunt and honest. There must be other 44s that have said something I would agree with, but time-constraints prevent me from reading every single page before the point in which I entered. Maybe later.

As of right now, I grow weary of it. I've said what I wanted say. Thanks for the enlightening debate.

[King4aDay]

Dude, it's your thread, so you can have the last word. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think you're necessarily right. I stand by every statement I made in this thread and feel I'm right.

I admire others like Apollyon for providing insight and saying what I would say, but even better, and also to ZBJ for being very blunt and honest. There must be other 44s that have said something I would agree with, but time-constraints prevent me from reading every single page before the point in which I entered. Maybe later.

As of right now, I grow weary of it. I've said what I wanted say. Thanks for the enlightening debate.

Well then, thank you for sharing your ideas with me. I am not so arrogant as to believe that I can change your mind merely by presenting to you my arguments. I also admire Apollyon (who I very often agree with) and ZBJ who is very insightful, and of course you Tyger, who is quite passionate in your thinking and have many times disturbed me with your ability to reply to posts so quickly and thoroughly! :-)

And, by the way, I do agree with you on most of your points. I see some aspects differently, but I don't deny your observations.

[nycjoc]

Okay, Finally read all that And I wanted to make a couple of points:

1. On the Black Panthers. They weren't just down for American Blacks they wanted PEOPLE OF COLOR to unite against the oppressive white dominance of the time. They weren't just into black power but also people power and many other groups off shooted off of them.

2. Obama is now where near the second wave of black politics because he is not into black politics at all he's into politics generally.
Obama, king doesn't need to sit in the senate passing more bills to become president either you can read and be responsible or you can't. This myth about marinating in the senate makes you a better president is hogwash and proves nothing, at least not to me.
As to Obama's race, he chose the identity. He sure didn't have to and I respect whatever he chooses to call himself. I'm tired of people getting attitudes about folks who like being identified by their so called race. I personally don't care if you see my color, I just expect you to respect me despite it, thank you very much.

3. Black unity like I said is something that happens when necessary but it didn't just start in the sixties, there were always black folks fighting for the cause and there will always be whether the bulk joins or not and that's probably the way it is in most groups.

There’s more but at work so have to be brief.

Boy I tell ya this thread has more twists and turns than a winding road. But I still enjoy it.

[nskripchun]

Okay, Finally read all that And I wanted to make a couple of points:

1. On the Black Panthers. They weren't just down for American Blacks they wanted PEOPLE OF COLOR to unite against the oppressive white dominance of the time. They weren't just into black power but also people power and many other groups off shooted off of them.


For those who have forgotten... one of the leaders in the original Black Panther party was "Field Marshal" Richard Aoki (Japanese American):

http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Our_Stories/Chapter3/Richard_Aoki.html

Third World Liberation Front...

http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Our_Stories/Chapter3/images/Richard/2_richard_2.html

[King4aDay]

On the flip side, Asian men have been and will be removed as characters and replaced with white men in

21
Speed Racer
The Departed (the whole damn cast)
Akira



What? There's a live-action Akira??????

[Apollyon]

Thank you for the kind words, Tyger and King. I've appreciated both of your contributions to this discussion as well.

And yes, there will be a live action Akira apparently..

Warner, Leonardo DiCaprio to Produce Live-Action Akira (Update 2)
posted on 2008-02-20 17:45 EST
Two films planned, with first film scheduled for Summer 2009 release

The Hollywood Reporter and Variety entertainment trade periodicals both report that Warner Brothers and Appian Way, the production company of actor Leonardo DiCaprio (Titanic, The Aviator), will adapt Katsuhiro Otomo's Akira manga into two live-action films. Each film will cover three volumes of the renowned science-fiction manga about a governmental genetic project and a teenager's attempt to save a fellow biker gang member.

The manga set in Neo-Tokyo, a city rebuilt after being destroyed in a mysterious explosion. Otomo directed his own animated film adaptation that premiered on July 16, 1988 — the same day that the story has the fictional Tokyo being destroyed. The first live-action film is scheduled for release in the summer of 2009 and will move the story's setting to "'New Manhattan,' a city rebuilt after being destroyed 31 years ago."

Ireland's Ruairi Robinson will be making his feature directorial debut with this project, and Gary Whitta (Book of Eli) is writing a script. Warner Brothers once had the film rights for Akira before, but Executive Vice-President Greg Silverman (300, Batman Begins) had to re-acquire them from Kodansha after a round of pitched bidding that reached seven figures. Mad Chance's Andrew Lazar, DiCaprio, and Appian Way's Jennifer Davisson will produce. No announcement has been made regarding the cast.

Update: The free version of Hollywood Reporter's article is now active, and more information about the original manga and anime adaptation have been added.

Update 2: The Hollywood Reporter's article added a picture of the Akira character from CAPCOM's Rival School (Rival Gakuen) videogames. This Akira character is entirely unrelated to either Katsuhiro Otomo's manga or the planned live-action movies. Robinson directed "The Silent City" short with Cillian Murphy (Batman Begins' Scarecrow) and the Oscar-nominated "Fifty Percent Grey" animated short. Whitta was the editor-in-chief of PC Gamer magazine and the writer of the comic-book adaptation of the Death Jr. videogame.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-02-20/warner-leonardo-dicaprio-to-produce-akira-live-action

Now I may have jumped the gun a bit and assumed that they will replace the Asian male characters with white men, but it is going to be in New Manhattan, so we can pretty well guess what that means.


Edit:
Ok, I just found this. I'll need a couple of those airline vomit bags.

'Akira' to Star Leo DiCaprio and Joseph Gordon Levitt

by Elisabeth Rappe Feb 21st 2008 // 9:32AM

Filed under: Sci-Fi & Fantasy, Casting, Warner Brothers, RumorMonger, Comic/Superhero/Geek, Remakes and Sequels
Hours after Warner Bros and Leo DiCaprio grabbed Akira, we have the lead casting courtesy of Ain't It Cool News.

If your first thought upon hearing that DiCaprio was producing was "I bet he stars in it, too," well, you would be right. DiCaprio will reportedly be playing the lead character, Kaneda.

Set to star opposite him as Tetsuo is Joseph Gordon-Levitt, who is well on his way to the A-List these days -- and will probably be the next a geek hero in the Christian Bale mold after G.I. Joe.

Again, I'm completely unfamiliar with the book, so you'll have to tell me whether this is casting perfection or a complete disaster. Both are fine young actors, so I can't imagine it is the latter, but I know how bitter a pill it can be to see a beloved character miscast. I'd also like to hear who else you would like to see added to the roster.

http://www.cinematical.com/2008/02/21/akira-to-star-leo-dicaprio-and-joseph-gordon-levitt/

So there we have it. Asian male characters being replaced by white men.

[Apollyon]

Incidentally, I don't know much about the history of American political activism and minority empowerment, but I would be very interested in learning about Cointelpro, similar initiatives, and basically how we got to be in the situation we are in now. This reminds me a little bit of Tiannenman Square and how the government remained in power opening up its markets to the world. I don't know details and don't know much about politics in general, but it seems to me like a deal with the devil was made. Likewise I am imagining something similar with what ended the civil rights movements of the 60s.

[Makulita]

Terrible news but the following comments warms my heart and even perks up my faith in humanity. They actually know what's up and even go so far as to use other movies as examples of other movies being white washed.

Now Justin Chon, a kid from that Nick teen show called "Just Jordan" could play Tetsuo... after he cuts that popstar hair. Can't quite figure out who could be Kaneda though.

[King4aDay]

OK, first I have to admit that I'm thrilled that there will be a live-action Akira!!



But this is really the LAST STRAW!!!! Youre right, it actually IS a conspiracy!!!

This is UNBELIEVABLE!!! :eek:

You Asians have got to do something about this... I mean seriously! This is ridiculous, Leonardo DiCaprio!!!
Man, Apollyon, you sure called it.

Now come on, something has to be done doesn't it?
Doesn't it?

[Makulita]

... Its not a conspiracy. Its an institution.

[King4aDay]

... Its not a conspiracy. Its an institution.

Pfft!! Don't feel too bad, Mak.

I just found out that Leonardo DiCaprio will also be playing Kunte Kinte in the remake of "Roots."


http://www.wow.gm/_library/articles/F1FC0039-6917-46A5-AFF4-66163CADEC2A-s.jpg

[nycjoc]

That's funny King considering they have Robert downey in black face playing in an upcoming movie, but whatever. as to Akira, I told my friedn about that and we all were pissed. I am SOOOOO tired of seeing that kind of crap and it's been going on for so long. next movie I'm watching is ninja assassin with Rain unless I heard it's just a pile of some ole bullshitte.

One day I hope to see Asian men playing ina diversity of roles in hollywood but it's going to take a movement and a lot of hell to get it done.

[nycjoc]

Incidentally, I don't know much about the history of American political activism and minority empowerment, but I would be very interested in learning about Cointelpro, similar initiatives, and basically how we got to be in the situation we are in now. This reminds me a little bit of Tiannenman Square and how the government remained in power opening up its markets to the world. I don't know details and don't know much about politics in general, but it seems to me like a deal with the devil was made. Likewise I am imagining something similar with what ended the civil rights movements of the 60s.

I'll look up some of the books I have but it is interesting that the government did with Cointelpro. but it wasn't just the government. Many folks sold out( for a lack of a better term). They got theirs and damn everyone else. And a lot of the ones that benefitted the most from the civil rights movement NEVER LOOKED BACK and are the first to denigrate those they've advanced over.

[King4aDay]

That's funny King considering they have Robert downey in black face playing in an upcoming movie, but whatever. as to Akira, I told my friedn about that and we all were pissed. I am SOOOOO tired of seeing that kind of crap and it's been going on for so long. next movie I'm watching is ninja assassin with Rain unless I heard it's just a pile of some ole bullshitte.

One day I hope to see Asian men playing ina diversity of roles in hollywood but it's going to take a movement and a lot of hell to get it done.

I KNOWWWW! I heard about Robert Downey Jr.!!!
http://jasmynecannick.typepad.com/jasmynecannickcom/images/2008/03/07/tropicthunder_l.jpg

I hate to admit this, but he really looks Black (not the point, I know)

I'm definitely disappointed about Akira. Of course. I'm going to see it anyway, I just can't resist. But seriously, I mean can they really be so dense as to think that they can just switch from New Tokyo to New Manhattan and then proceed to populate the film with White actors and nobody will notice or care???

Warner Brothers Studios
Attn: Akira Fan Mail
4000 Warner Boulevard
Burbank, CA. 91522
818.954.1744

[King4aDay]

Warner Brothers Studios
Attn: Akira Fan Mail
4000 Warner Boulevard
Burbank, CA. 91522

June 18, 2008




To whom it may concern:

As a long time fan and proud owner of of the Akira animated movie, I am thrilled to discover that Warner Bros. is soon to begin production on a live-action version of the movie. I can assure you that many fans worldwide look forward, with great anticipation, to supporting this new film.

However, to be candid, I must admit to having a single reservation regarding your motion picture. Where have all the Asians gone? Akira is a Japanese film, originally written, animated, and performed by Japanese talent. This Anime is known worldwide as the most groundbreaking Japanese animated movie of all time. Yet, from what I read, it will now be set in New Manhattan rather than New Tokyo and several of the lead characters will be Caucasians rather than Japanese. It seems this sort of thing has become somewhat of a trend in Hollywood these days.

I am not a zealot, nor do I believe that this one letter will convince you to recast the entire movie. Nevertheless, I hope to convey to you the manifest unfairness of your insensitive approach to this issue. Hollywood has championed many causes throughout the years. You have asked us to save the planet, to save the whales, the Spotted Owl, and now the environment. Well, might I suggest that you add to that lofty list the singular goal of saving the Asian actor. There are so few leading roles for Asians in Hollywood these days that it is both heartbreaking and deeply disappointing when an obviously Asian film is so heartlessly whitewashed by people who should know better.

And lastly, lest you file this letter in the wrong drawer, under the heading of "Angry Asian Man," please file it instead under the heading of "Bewildered Black Man." I am not Asian, yet even I can see the injustice of your actions. I'm sure that others do as well.

Please consider what I have said, and best of luck in the making your movie.

Sincerely,

[Tyger Durden]

I'll look up some of the books I have but it is interesting that the government did with Cointelpro. but it wasn't just the government. Many folks sold out( for a lack of a better term). They got theirs and damn everyone else. And a lot of the ones that benefitted the most from the civil rights movement NEVER LOOKED BACK and are the first to denigrate those they've advanced over.


Yes, please do so and reference those books and post the info here. Statements that broad-sweeping and inflammatory should have some facts behind it or most anybody can fit the accusation.

[King4aDay]

Oh... by the by, Tyger.

If you do get the chance, you should really have a look at Jaewan's article on Obama and Black People in France. (http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2008/06/18/obama-and-black-people-in-france/)

The video is rather interesting.

I think that you will find that the "pro-Black PR machine" has had less than the desired effect across the pond.
But then again, I suppose that there are fewer guilty hippies in France...

[Tyger Durden]

...I think that you will find that the "pro-Black PR machine" has had less than the desired effect across the pond.
But then again, I suppose that there are fewer guilty hippies in France...

With a number ranging between 3 and 5 Million Blacks of the total population (approx. 61 Million) in France, or less than 10%, a French "Obama" would still need a lot of guilty white hippies to help him win in France. That's the same situation in America. It's simple mathematics. If you can't understand or accept that, then don't even bother replying.

Also, don't underestimate the reach of Hollywood across both Oceans over the last 40 years, with influences including and beyond the "pro-Black PR machine" that has been in existence in America. If you don't think the World hasn't been already exposed to Hollywood or is susceptible to it's influence, then that would be a tragic mistake on your part. All they do is translate all the voices of the actors/actresses. The themes stay the same.

Some, or even most, 44s believe Hollywood to be one major factor in the of inter-racial marriage disparity/bias in favor of White Males by Asian Females. Care to start a new thread and challenge them on that, go ahead. Otherwise, go help NYJOC with his COINTELPRO info (reply #288) in this thread and find out who he is referring to.

[King4aDay]

With a number ranging between 3 and 5 Million Blacks of the total population (approx. 61 Million) in France, or less than 10%, a French "Obama" would still need a lot of guilty white hippies to help him win in France. That's the same situation in America. It's simple mathematics. If you can't understand or accept that, then don't even bother replying.

Also, don't underestimate the reach of Hollywood across both Oceans over the last 40 years, with influences including and beyond the "pro-Black PR machine" that has been in existence in America. If you don't think the World hasn't been already exposed to Hollywood or is susceptible to it's influence, then that would be a tragic mistake on your part. All they do is translate all the voices of the actors/actresses. The themes stay the same.

Some, or even most, 44s believe Hollywood to be one major factor in the of inter-racial marriage disparity/bias in favor of White Males by Asian Females. Care to start a new thread and challenge them on that, go ahead. Otherwise, go help NYJOC with his COINTELPRO info (reply #288) in this thread and find out who he is referring to.

Yes, of course. I'm sure that you're right. Oh, and NYJOC is a "she" I think.