A coworker's words -- empathy, smugness, or naivete?

[etain]

I'm an AM who's been working with a hapa Japanese AF for the past few months. She looks "more Asian" than white though there's no question she's phenotypically mixed.

Anyways, we've discussed some Asian identity issues, including IR dating disparity, and on more than one occasion she's said something to me that's been a bit hurtful.

Here's some things she's said:

1) "I feel a little bad for my brother. He looks enough like my dad [the white side] but he has the Asian eyes so he doesn't do as well [with girls] as he could."

2) "If I were male instead of female I would probably move to Japan because it would be easier."

3) One day I asked her what she was doing on the computer and she responded that she was catching up with a friend. She said, "You'd like her, she dates Asian guys."

If you've ever been in a similar situation, you probably know what I was thinking, "It's easy for you to say that because you know you're not affected by it." And it felt a little bit like salt was being rubbed into my wounds.

Is this simply a friend trying to empathize Or is she being a bit smug because she's knows she's in a more powerful position as far as our conversations were concerned? Or is she simply naive and unaware of the effects of her words? Or am I just totally being oversensitive?

It's my first post here, so go easy :)

[SamuraiJack]

I'm an AM who's been working with a hapa Japanese AF for the past few months. She looks "more Asian" than white though there's no question she's phenotypically mixed.

Anyways, we've discussed some Asian identity issues, including IR dating disparity, and on more than one occasion she's said something to me that's been a bit hurtful.

Here's some things she's said:

1) "I feel a little bad for my brother. He looks enough like my dad [the white side] but he has the Asian eyes so he doesn't do as well [with girls] as he could."

2) "If I were male instead of female I would probably move to Japan because it would be easier."

3) One day I asked her what she was doing on the computer and she responded that she was catching up with a friend. She said, "You'd like her, she dates Asian guys."

If you've ever been in a similar situation, you probably know what I was thinking, "It's easy for you to say that because you know you're not affected by it." And it felt a little bit like salt was being rubbed into my wounds.

Is this simply a friend trying to empathize Or is she being a bit smug because she's knows she's in a more powerful position as far as our conversations were concerned? Or is she simply naive and unaware of the effects of her words? Or am I just totally being oversensitive?

It's my first post here, so go easy :)

I think she understands. If you two are able to discuss IR intelligently, then it's probable that she's just addressing the harsh reality that no one else is able to.

But if she has some sort of fixation on white guys, like constantly commenting on how cute this white celebrity is and so on, then it could be that she doesn't believe that there's anything wrong, and that it's "just the way things are".

[Pat the Great]

it sounds like she's being honest and frank, to me. but yeah, i see how that could sting.

still, those are two things i'd value in a friend.

[nightshade]

Maybe I'm harsh, but I wouldn't trust her at all.

[etain]

I think she understands. If you two are able to discuss IR intelligently, then it's probable that she's just addressing the harsh reality that no one else is able to.

But if she has some sort of fixation on white guys, like constantly commenting on how cute this white celebrity is and so on, then it could be that she doesn't believe that there's anything wrong, and that it's "just the way things are".

By her own admission she never found Asian guys attractive until she went to Japan. And yeah, by her own words it is "just the way things are," though I don't think she'll go as far to say that there's nothing wrong with it. Of course the fact that she was able to expand her dating pool in Japan does not necessarily make me feel better about my situation.

Maybe the question I'm trying to ask is how exactly do an AM and an AF have an intelligent, constructive discussion about IR disparity without slipping into bad territory? The only criteria I have to judge whether or not it's going badly is whether or not I feel stung at the end of the conversation. Is that just inevitable or is it avoidable?

To put it simpler, if she says something again, what do I say to her to make her stop but not imply we can't talk about it at all?

[nightshade]

It's only possible to have an intelligent conversation about anything if both parties involved in the conversation are intelligent. She sounds stupid to me.

[jaehwan]

I think she's just be honest with you, and as Pat says, that's something that I would value in a friendship.

I'd give her the benefit of the doubt. I can see how it's hurtful, but I think she's just trying to share her opinion on a situation in which we agree on the facts of our condition. To a certain degree, it is "just the way things are." So I don't think you're being oversensitive. If she can see that this disparity exists, maybe she can be your ally when it comes to social or political stuff.

[nskripchun]

1) "I feel a little bad for my brother. He looks enough like my dad [the white side] but he has the Asian eyes so he doesn't do as well [with girls] as he could."

2) "If I were male instead of female I would probably move to Japan because it would be easier."

3) One day I asked her what she was doing on the computer and she responded that she was catching up with a friend. She said, "You'd like her, she dates Asian guys."


It's kind of hard to judge whether she's just being blunt / honest versus smug or condescending. Obviously, the way in which she says these might indicate the difference, but even then, I think it's easy to misinterpret somebody completely if you take their statements out of contexts and pick over them like last night's leftovers.

I guess my advice is to keep the conversations going and have an open mind about where she might be coming from. The fact that she's at least aware of some of the issues and double standards when it comes to the Asian female versus Asian male place in the colonial sexual hierarchy is starting point for you to build at least a surface-level friendship.

[etain]

Thanks for the feedback. I actually really like nightshade's answer but am hesitant to employ her tactics simply because this woman is the only other Asian here and I'd lose my only ally, however allied with me she might be. That would be the extension from Pat's point.

Of course I don't like being stung every time we have these conversations, so maybe the "surface-level" friendship is a good place to keep this. We'll see how it goes.

Good stuff, as expected.

[Pat the Great]

i'm curious. what about those three comments indicated a lack of intelligence?

[groinpull]

She sounds like she's throwing pseudo friendship building lines out there to make you vulnerable and keep you subordinate. It kind of worked right? Why else would you be on this board asking for help/advice. It's like if I was white, in a mainly white office, and there's one asian girl, and I just say 'It seems that there so many Asian girls with White guys'. Such supposedly neutral lines are usually powerplays, aimed at keeping the target under control and stress.

If she's your only ally, you need to find better allies.

[etain]

She sounds like she's throwing pseudo friendship building lines out there to make you vulnerable and keep you subordinate. It kind of worked right? Why else would you be on this board asking for help/advice. It's like if I was white, in a mainly white office, and there's one asian girl, and I just say 'It seems that there so many Asian girls with White guys'. Such supposedly neutral lines are usually powerplays, aimed at keeping the target under control and stress.

If she's your only ally, you need to find better allies.

Not gonna lie, I've DEFINITELY thought about exactly what you said. Even if it's sub-conscious, often times I can't help but feel that she's sort of rubbing her power in my face (wow, those last six words taken out of context need to be used in more porns).

I think what you said effectively encapsulates why what she says hurts. It's a very explicit reminder of the social mobility she has that I don't. Moreover, the fact that she can poke it so easily is also infuriating.

[evil_FUX]

Perhaps you could post more of her words so that a "better" inference could be had. After all, we're not there to witness the inflexions in her voice or the look on her face when she says those things.

[etain]

Perhaps you could post more of her words so that a "better" inference could be had. After all, we're not there to witness the inflexions in her voice or the look on her face when she says those things.

I'm not trying to villainize her, so I feel a little bad because anything I post to illustrate what I mean is going to make her look bad. Meanwhile she says a lot more friendly things than potentially hurtful things, as do most people.

She never says anything outright cruel, e.g. "Yeah I'm so glad I'm me and not you because I get laid a lot more." It's never like that. It's also rarely casual. The only time she says anything that has the possibility of stinging is when we are engaged in conversation as opposed to in passing.

Other examples I can think of off the top of my head:

1) "My parents don't want me to marry a Japanese man . . . I don't think Japanese marriages are good."

2) We were watching some ridiculous CNN blurb one day about American men starting "husband training" programs in Japan. After I wretched in my mouth I asked her, "Wow, what do you think about that?" She said, "I understand why it doesn't look good, but something should be done." (I admit this one sounds pretty bad)

3) She mentioned once how a lot of girls in Japan receive eye-enlarging surgery in Japan for their 16th and 18th birthdays. I asked her, "So be honest, you know how screwed up that is but, at the same time, you're glad you're above it all [as the hapa with large eyes]." She paused briefly before responding, "Yeah." It should be mentioned that I totally baited this one out of her, there's no way she would have said that unless I put the words in her mouth.

I've made her sound pretty bad, but she really isn't THAT horrible. I'm not necessarily looking for an interpretation of her -- though any would be welcome -- because I can make my own. Rather, I'm wondering how you would interact or ally, to borrow a term, with someone like this. In my opinion she represents the vast majority of AFs, not completely ignorant and callous of this issue, but not totally aware and understanding. She's simply in the middle.

[evil_FUX]

Put that way, i usually leave people like that on the periphery. Of course, I've always felt I had high standards when it came to people.

[Makulita]

To me she just sounds like the typical product of the system. Vague awareness of her cog-self in the machine but she doesn't sound like she's happy or sad about her position. I'd wager she's a little bit more happy than sad because of her exact role (Hapa female; Asian/White mix). While she might not know the sting of her words, there's a point to where it stops being her and where it begins speaking for her privileged position in the racial/sexual hierarchy.

I'm reading this while I'm waiting out this cynical, jaded phase so my opinion on this is biased by this particular mood I'm in. She seems like a nice girl in the way that you can talk about the weather or the latest episode of Ugly Betty with a "nice girl" but you can't talk to her about shit like antiestablishmentarianism, the economical implications of the global warming threat or other some such brain-engaging bull. This isn't to call her too stupid to be able to grasp such subjects but to illustrate that by the situation you've described and your relation to her those subjects are NOT ones you should try and talk to her about. At least not on office hours. Or if you want to make going to work everyday and seeing her fucking godawful awkward. Or if you can anticipate the day an offhand comment from her spreads around and brands you as the Hypersensitive Bitter Asian Man in your workplace.

While usually I love nothing more than smearing some trufax into the faces of jell-o "innocent" people like her, you have to consider other factors of doing so beyond that squishy feel-goodness you have as you watch their faces fall in abject self-hatred at their realization of being a tool. Though that's only if you revel in your pettiness. You won't be able to eventually let what she says slide (because I doubt you'll be working with her long enough for that to happen) and the best thing first is to educate YOURSELF that way next time some random comment of hers digs in under your skin you'll have something more constructive to say to it than "...". However if shit like that don't work, let it sting for awhile, get over it and get on with doing something more productive-- like filing them TP reports.

[nightshade]

i'm curious. what about those three comments indicated a lack of intelligence?

Everything about her sounds stupid: the shit about her brother's chinky eyes, how she didn't find Asian men attractive until she went to Japan, the "You'll like her, she's dating an Asian man." WTF. That sounds like pure stupidity to me.

She's the sort of chick at the office that I would ignore. And I'd ignore her in real life, except to kick her to the curb. Offices are filled with people like this--one should NEVER TALK ABOUT RACE in the office. NEVER. Maybe if you become BFFs and go drinking together. BUT NOT IN THE OFFICE. Makulita is so right.

I admit, I do say things like, "Gee, our program really hates brown people." Etc. But I only say that to the gay boy in the office because we have an understanding that I think that most of the women in our office (though not our department, thank god) are stupid, and I'm a hater, and he gets that I'm an asshole.

Yes, I have a problem where I expect a lot more from women then from men. I know this.

But you should continue being civil to her. But don't be having political conversations in the office. It's as bad as showing up and shitting on your desk.

[Ike]

Thanks for the feedback. I actually really like nightshade's answer but am hesitant to employ her tactics simply because this woman is the only other Asian here and I'd lose my only ally, however allied with me she might be. That would be the extension from Pat's point.

Of course I don't like being stung every time we have these conversations, so maybe the "surface-level" friendship is a good place to keep this. We'll see how it goes.

Good stuff, as expected.

Don't pour your heart out to her, don't hang onto her every word, but don't burn bridges. It's just a co-worker, after all.

[Pat the Great]

Everything about her sounds stupid: the shit about her brother's chinky eyes, how she didn't find Asian men attractive until she went to Japan, the "You'll like her, she's dating an Asian man." WTF. That sounds like pure stupidity to me.

damn, we got some haters up in here.

i still fail to see the stupidity here. she may not exactly be living the fully examined life, but we've got plenty of 44s here in similar straits.

once again, it sounds to me like she's just being honest, and speaking to her experiences. she recognizes that her brother's more-Asian looks restrict his appeal to women, she's honest about her own attraction to Asian men, and she realizes that the issue is important enough to the OP. is she going to find a home with the 44s? probably not. but from what little we've got, she doesn't sound so bad at all. maybe a little misguided, and it's obviously something the OP is sensitive to, but i'm not seeing overt stupidity or malice.

[jaehwan]

I agree with Pat. I don't think she's all that bad either. She may be "stupid" insofar as she doesn't read or debate issues, but in my opinion, that doesn't make her stupid; it makes her normal. The average level of knowledge of the 44's member is much greater than the norm, and it would be impractical to expect everyone to be at that level. (and as Pat mentions, some of us don't lead fully examined lives either).

I would just value her for her honesty. She's not telling you what to think about race; she's just telling you what she thinks. It's all cool. You probably won't change her own mind about her own preferences, but maybe you can convey the fact that you're one of the people who would like change. I don't think most people hear this from Asian men often enough.

[tokyolovestory]

Just to throw it out there... I've known a couple hapa kids whose parents were the "typical" IR couple--AF/WM. And they rarely ever push the idea of their daughter marrying an AM. There are probably any number of factors that contribute to that attitude, but I'm honestly not surprised that her parents have pushed the "Japanese marriages aren't good" crap.

[Heyyu]

From my own experiences, Japanese hapas tend to be a little bit more laid-back and less smug than the Chinese/Korean hapas (who can definitely have an attitude). And she did say she started finding Asian men attractive when she went to Japan... at least she didn't say the opposite, "Oh I went to Japan and found the wussy men ugly and too girly." Sounds to me like she's alright... not a CCB.

[etain]

Just to throw it out there... I've known a couple hapa kids whose parents were the "typical" IR couple--AF/WM. And they rarely ever push the idea of their daughter marrying an AM. There are probably any number of factors that contribute to that attitude, but I'm honestly not surprised that her parents have pushed the "Japanese marriages aren't good" crap.

Well given their parents' choices, and what likely influenced those choices, it's not surprising that they would push that sort of message onto their kids. It is pretty lame though.

[bluejives]

Maybe the question I'm trying to ask is how exactly do an AM and an AF have an intelligent, constructive discussion about IR disparity without slipping into bad territory?


You raise a very interesting and definitive question here. But I think you are in some sense fortunate to be able to have some kind of face-to-face dialogue with an AF (in Real Life, as opposed to online) who has some rudimentary understanding of the issue, which admittedly, is highly taboo. Having dialogue is better than no dialogue at all.


The only criteria I have to judge whether or not it's going badly is whether or not I feel stung at the end of the conversation. Is that just inevitable or is it avoidable?


One of the enduring problems of the IR disparity dialogue has been that AM have been too focused on criticizing AFs and other factors for the disparity and not spent enough energy articulating why AFs would be better off sticking with AMs in the first place. But this requires knowledge of truth and emotionalism is the enemy of truth.

You do have to exercise some emotional restraint and detachment when talking about such matters with an AF. I would suggest not dwelling so much on your own feelings but use this as an opportunity to discover what goes on in the mind of an AF. Maybe you'd want to find out what her parents relationship was like, etc.

[nightshade]

damn, we got some haters up in here.

i still fail to see the stupidity here. she may not exactly be living the fully examined life, but we've got plenty of 44s here in similar straits.

once again, it sounds to me like she's just being honest, and speaking to her experiences. she recognizes that her brother's more-Asian looks restrict his appeal to women, she's honest about her own attraction to Asian men, and she realizes that the issue is important enough to the OP. is she going to find a home with the 44s? probably not. but from what little we've got, she doesn't sound so bad at all. maybe a little misguided, and it's obviously something the OP is sensitive to, but i'm not seeing overt stupidity or malice.

You and jaehwan are super nice and generous. When it comes to compassion, I'm lacking. Yes, I am a card carrying hater.

Anyone past the age of 25 who is still "misguided" is a moron.

In my experience, people like this chick aren't worth a personal investment. Sure, she's not malicious. But really, if we're being honest here, she would only be worth talking to if she was hot.

Some of you dudes are always saying that you never meet great AFs in real life--ones who are smart and who know the issues. It's because some of you are thinking with your dicks. (Haha, Pat, not you. You're married and well adjusted.) If some of you guys would give the chicks you think are "fat" a chance, you'd probably discover that there's plenty of rad girls who are on your side. But do you want to be on their side?

[etain]

But really, if we're being honest here, she would only be worth talking to if she was hot.

She's definitely better than average :) Truthfully that might have a little to do with it. It's one thing for anyone to indirectly comment about my chinky eyes. It's another for an attractive hapa female with big eyes to say it.

[nskripchun]

You and jaehwan are super nice and generous. When it comes to compassion, I'm lacking. Yes, I am a card carrying hater.


hahaha, nightshade...

We all know you're concealing a squishy, bleeding, pure heart of gold underneath your steel exterior. ;)


It's another for an attractive hapa female with big eyes to say it.


Ah, so finally... the root of the matter!

I guess for us AM, the stakes are higher when a beautiful woman is involved (even though in our brains, we know they shouldn't). But as nightshade alluded to in her post... do you really care about her perspective about AA issues because she might have some misconceptions, or are you really concerned because you just want to hit it?

I'm going to repost what nightshade said because it's worth reading...


Some of you dudes are always saying that you never meet great AFs in real life--ones who are smart and who know the issues. It's because some of you are thinking with your dicks. (Haha, Pat, not you. You're married and well adjusted.) If some of you guys would give the chicks you think are "fat" a chance, you'd probably discover that there's plenty of rad girls who are on your side. But do you want to be on their side?

[Candide]

She's definitely better than average :) Truthfully that might have a little to do with it. It's one thing for anyone to indirectly comment about my chinky eyes. It's another for an attractive hapa female with big eyes to say it.

Stop putting women on a pedestal, even if they're beautiful. Have some self-respect, mate. If she crosses the line and says something you find offensive, tell her, regardless of whether she's just naive or a smug bitch.

For example, you can take the chance to educate this silly girl on the fact that many Asians naturally have big eyes with double eyelids (I'm one of them).

[etain]

You're definitely not wrong, though I'd argue for any male the stakes are higher when an attractive woman is involved.

But truthfully, I care about her perspective because I want to discuss these issues and she's the most obvious discussion partner given that we're the only two AA here. If she were an unattractive AF, or hapa, or whatever, I would still care about her perspective because I would still want to discuss these issues and she would still be the most obvious discussion partner.

The fact that she is good looking just makes it sting a little bit more when she says something that indirectly refers to my perceived attractiveness. I mean it's always worse if a smart person calls you dumb than if a dumb person calls you dumb, explicitly or implicitly. Throw some race and gender into it and it's that much more frustrating.

[Candide]

You're definitely not wrong, though I'd argue for any male the stakes are higher when an attractive woman is involved.

Nope, you're wrong. It might be a little higher if it's an ugly one who's easily offended. Attractive women (just talking physically here) are a dime a dozen. You don't have to worry about putting one of them in her place. In fact, that's exactly how you get her respect, because she's used to chumps (like you before you made this thread) sucking up to her despite her blatant disrespect for them.

[Pat the Great]

i'm married?! when the hell did that happen? :O

i don't really know how to break THAT one to my girlfriend. um. maybe i shouldn't be posting in this thread until i get my own biz taken care of. or maybe you're confusing me with xian, the OTHER unshakable hapa jedi master around here.

it looks like the responses to this situation are largely gendered. my guess is that nightshade and makulita have been the girl that was overlooked while asian guys whined about how there aren't any (kristin kreuk lookalike) girls who are down with the brown. and to their credit, all the guys posting in on this - including myself - are probably guilty of overlooking that girl at one point or another in our lives.

in this case, however, i'm willing to give etain the benefit of the doubt and not assume tunnel vision.

[nightshade]

Haha, oops. Sorry, Pat, for some reason I thought you were married, but I guess you were writing about your girlfriend in some thread. Sorry about that.

I've never had a bad experience with Asian boys who like Asian girls. (Haha, I'm that bitchy chick in the office who eats all the donuts and is a size 2. Though I suppose size 2 is fat for some of the dudes on this board.)

It's the colonized losers who live for white girls who give me grief. Sadly, I didn't figure out what was wrong with those guys until four years ago.

And haven't you seen pictures of Makulita? She's a total rock star. Of course, that means that some of the complainers on this board would be too weaksauce to ever talk to her.

[tokyolovestory]

I tip my hat to the beautiful ladies on these boards... haha

[RebelAzn]

I tip my hat to the beautiful ladies on these boards... haha

Perhaps someone here should start a dating site for Asian Americans that get it. This way all the Asian dudes and women can just filter out all the white-washed ones. This way everyone can focus on dating vs. keep wondering if the other is the enlighten one or not.

The question is how come I have not seen such a site?

[Pat the Great]

The question is how come I have not seen such a site?

black belts only.

[Makulita]

... HEY.

I just calls'em likes I see's 'em.

D:

[nskripchun]

The question is how come I have not seen such a site?

Paid subscriptions to the Fighting 44s only!

Chika chika bow bow.

[evil_FUX]

I tip my hat to the beautiful ladies on these boards... haha

... HEY.

I just calls'em likes I see's 'em.

D:

Word on both counts.

[Ike]

She's definitely better than average :) Truthfully that might have a little to do with it. It's one thing for anyone to indirectly comment about my chinky eyes. It's another for an attractive hapa female with big eyes to say it.

Dude. Examine your own beauty standards before getting offended at her remarks.

[etain]

Dude. Examine your own beauty standards before getting offended at her remarks.

I didn't necessarily mean that this was my standard of beauty, just what is socially perceived as beautiful. It's an artificially constructed standard that unfairly favors her and not me is all I was implying. Thus, having it pointed out by her is irksome.

[etain]

Word on both counts.

Likewise. They're certainly infinitely more enlightened than my coworker.

[nightshade]

hahaha, nightshade...

We all know you're concealing a squishy, bleeding, pure heart of gold underneath your steel exterior. ;)



Haha, thanks. I'm glad that you didn't call me fat in a backhanded way.

[Logain]

Eh I don't know. I mean she honestly doesn't sound like she's saying anything that different than what an ignorant white individual would say. Being blunt/honest can be alright but if you were dealing with a blunt/honest white individual with the same mentality would you be just as quick to make excuses for that individual??

I'm not saying she's a bad person but I generally won't discuss racial issues with people like that. Which I know in the end winds up solving absolutely nothing but some people I just refuse to waste time on with the subject.

[aznbutterfly123]

I think you should count your lucky stars she's even speaking to you. It sounds to me someone is a little bit interested in the "airhead" hapa. Am I not right? I suggest getting off your high horse and praying you two will remain friends for however long.