It always amazes me how fashionable Asian FOB's are today compared to the 80's

[Heyyu]

I mean, when I see Korean, Japanese, Chinese or Taiwanese FOB's today, I can't help but think, "Damn, they dress much more fashionable than when I was a kid growing up during the 80's." As sad as this is to say, if you were an Asian teen growing up in America during the 80's or early 90's, chances are high that you pretty much dressed and looked like this (with slight variations) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Mmodel.jpg)

But overall, I'd say Asian teens fashion sense back then was quite plain and simple compared to today... actually, I don't even think Asian teens really had a fashion sense back then. Using me as an example, I sported the bowl cut as a kid pretty much all the way through junior high until I switched to the military-style buzz cut (which I still sport today, although sometimes when I'm too lazy to shave, I let it grow out for the more modern "spiky" gel look). And that pretty much explained most of the other Asian kids I knew grewing up... although during the illustrious & sadly wo-be-gone MC Hammer era (where art though Hammer?), you did see some of the more rebellious Asian teens sport the mo-hawk look (like my cousin). As for me, I always secretly wanted to rock the Afro look, but alas, my hair lacks the proper texture.

But even the Asian FOB's dressed fairly mundane back then as well. I think everything started changing around the mid-to-late 90's when you started to see a huge influx of the fashionable Asian FOB's... you know, the ones who dyed their hair and dressed stylishly. No longer were the Chinese or Korean kids the "plain-looking" ones... now they were the sexy ones that even put the slacker American teens to shame.

And even now, I'm still taken aback when I see a group of fashionable Korean or Chinese teens walking down the street. Interestingly enough, you can usually spot the 2nd generation Americanized ones who tend to dress more plain and casual.

[minbo]

Didn't the Asians in the 80's 90's go for the period wannabe triad gangsta look? You know, the whole pompadour, short spiky hair, super hairspray crest or the modified Asian mullets, all with lots of touch of copper. The black slacks with the then super tight rolled up cuffs tapering the legs. No socks and penny loafers/top siders. Button up black shirts open at the chest to show the Jade ring, sleeves tightly rolled up the forearms. Cig dangling from the lips, snapping open a Zippo with one hand and either flicking a butterfly knife around or carrying around a pool cue with the other hand. You know, when the Ghost Shadows, BTK, Flying Dragons, Tung On and the like were battling over Canal/Mott street in Chinatown. Sure it was bad for business and innocent bystanders, but they put on awesome Chinese New Years celebrations compared to the soulless lion/dragon dances of today, with the crappy tourist friendly red confetti poppers because they are too pussy to walk down a street with real fireworks.

[kwak76]

If I remember correctly the Asian look back in the 80's and early 90's were mostly wear black. Black everything and for the guys they had similar hair style. It was either grow one side of your bangs longer than the other side and use allot of gel or hair product. The other hair style look was the spikey look.

(I also remember way back in the 80's allot of the Asian American crowd listened to New Wave. I have no friggin idea why.)


I think Heyu mentioned about the FOB look. There was a difference in look between the FOB's and the AB whatever. I do agree that the FOB's back in the 80's looked pretty bad but overtime they do look better in the fashion department. I think this started to happen in the late 90's to beginning 2000.

I don't know about the CHinese FOBS because I see them all the time in flushing and they look like they improved a little bit but the Korean fobs are fashionholics. Korean Fobs are really into what they wear and what brand name they have on but I have to admit the Korean fobby girls do look much more attractive than the Korean American girls.

[evil_FUX]

I find it somewhat interesting that you point out a distinction Heyyu. For me, just about everyone in the 80's dressed horribly.

[kimtae]

Am I the only one old enough to remember the 80's who's going to comment with the obvious? In the 80's we always marveled at how crappy everyone dressed in the 60's and 70's.

[minbo]

I was watching A Better Tomorrow 2 tonight for old times sake. The kids in the restaurant have more of the look I remember for Asians in the 80's and early 90's.

[Synthetic]

Am I the only one old enough to remember the 80's who's going to comment with the obvious? In the 80's we always marveled at how crappy everyone dressed in the 60's and 70's.

...and let's not forget how bad everyone dressed in the 90's, either.

[takedown]

Seems to me that the Asian "FOB" fashion these days for guys are getting less and less musculine. I find this cultural trend quite disturbing. I suppose a lot of this kind of fashion is directly reflected or mimicked from the Asian dramas (mostly Chinese and Japanese, Koreans less in my opinion). I mean, you see guys with long hair dangling in their faces and all. I also notice that in Asia if you work out then you are not considered good-looking (maybe exaggerating). Most, if not all those guys in Asian dramas and TV shows are skinny. I think in East Asia if you are a guy with a brute look then you are considered to be of lower class or something (like someone who works the fields). WHat do y'all think?

[maogirl]

no.

i don't even know why i'm validating this by responding. shame on me.

[AmAznGuy]

Am I the only one old enough to remember the 80's who's going to comment with the obvious? In the 80's we always marveled at how crappy everyone dressed in the 60's and 70's.

I remember it quite well and yet I am always trying to forget it or at least my part in it... LOL :eek:

[Ike]

Seems to me that the Asian "FOB" fashion these days for guys are getting less and less musculine.

Musculine? Like... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=musculine&defid=1180218?

[Makulita]

Tsk, someone's using U.S. standards of masculinity to measure Asian masculinity in Asia.

... Seriously, tsk.

[takedown]

Tsk, someone's using U.S. standards of masculinity to measure Asian masculinity in Asia.

... Seriously, tsk.



Well, there are Asian ppl in Asia who also complain about the "lack of musculinity" in the male Asian image. They are not Asians born outside of Asia nor do they "worship" western culture. These are mainly the old-timers, ppl who been thru hard times, like wars n sh*t (but also a lot are young ppl as well). So stop saying that U.S. standards of musculinity is used to measure Asian musculinity in Asia. The concept of musculinity can be pretty objective.

[Makulita]

........

>_>"

Its like speaking to a motherfucking brick WALL.

[nightshade]

Well, there are Asian ppl in Asia who also complain about the "lack of musculinity" in the male Asian image. They are not Asians born outside of Asia nor do they "worship" western culture. These are mainly the old-timers, ppl who been thru hard times, like wars n sh*t (but also a lot are young ppl as well). So stop saying that U.S. standards of musculinity is used to measure Asian musculinity in Asia. The concept of musculinity can be pretty objective.

Congratulations, you're a retard.

[takedown]

Congratulations, you're a retard.

Come up with some intelligent rebuttal.

[nightshade]

Come up with some intelligent rebuttal.

I'd just be wasting my time.

[takedown]

I'd just be wasting my time.

You ain't got SH*T

[kimtae]

You ain't got SH*T
Now THAT's intelligent!

[JadeDragon]

takedown is banned. Dumbass motherfucker.

Carry on, everyone.

[minbo]

Dang, and I found the perfect video on YouTube. It's an ad running in Singapore for Mocca.com, about a guy selling his house and getting some ad dollars from Mocca while he is at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks2YNdDuJJ8

Muscular, masculine?

It's becoming a bit of a meme also...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7PAHtw_Fd4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqyVPSiEm_o&feature=related

[nightshade]

^That first parody of the commercial is really funny. I can imagine all these schoolkids across Singapore posing and saying, "You like it?" and laughing their asses off.

[Liang]

While takedown is an idiot, I think he has a point in saying that there are native Asians who notice how some famous Asian male popstars today have feminine auras about them. I would compare it to people in America complaining about girly Emo bands.

[blockthebox]

I dunno about FOBs (although I don't recall them dressing any differently really), but except for the big ass shoulder pads, 80s fashion wasn't so bad. It was supposed to be crazy and fun. The 90s were WAAAAAYYY worse and totally NOT fun. I still think Madonna circa 1984 is iconic!

[cattygurl]

Rubber bracelets! Leggings under lots of lace. I admit, 80's makeup (especially the racing stripe blush) scares me, though.

[blockthebox]

Ahahaha, I *LOVED* the rubber bracelets!

[poisenedrice]

Just here to chime in before I ignore this board for another year or so.

Having visited Taiwan and Japan last fall, all I can say is the bitchazz nukkas here better step their fashion game up cuz the dudes in Taipei and Tokyo are rockin' some seriously stylish gear, and as a result are laying the pipe on chicks. Now contrast them with your average bitch-ass ABC who is most likely dressed like the white people that he hangs out with*.

Me, I'd gladly hang out in Taiwan or Japan so I can buy all the sweet threads available to Asian dudes.

*Not sayin white dudes dress badly, it's just the style of clothes that work for them don't work for us (ie cargo pants, designer t-shirts etc.).

[Weeping_Lady]

Many times I'll blend the east with the west, no not a new idea, but it's banging. I'll pull some clothes from this and that part of the world and make it my own, so I'll have something unique to me that I'm comfortable in.

[99999]

Seems to me that the Asian "FOB" fashion these days for guys are getting less and less musculine.


And what is masculine??? sitting on the TV, watching football while drinking beer with a belly eating chips??? Being a gigantic olaf?? Three Hundred Pounds??? Dropping out of school/college???

Don't use american standards when comparing something else. Plus don't you ever think that the Fobs look better then us?? gangster wanabe's, Twinkies, Retarded Buzzcuts/Bowlcuts/Shaved Heads.

[nightshade]

And what is masculine??? sitting on the TV, watching football while drinking beer with a belly eating chips??? Being a gigantic olaf?? Three Hundred Pounds??? Dropping out of school/college???

Don't use american standards when comparing something else. Plus don't you ever think that the Fobs look better then us?? gangster wanabe's, Twinkies, Retarded Buzzcuts/Bowlcuts/Shaved Heads.

For some reason, I think I'm going to like you.

[maogirl]

^^ same here.

[Makulita]

Don't use american standards when comparing something else. Plus don't you ever think that the Fobs look better then us?? gangster wanabe's, Twinkies, Retarded Buzzcuts/Bowlcuts/Shaved Heads.

... Quoted For Truth.

[Yi Dynasty]

And what is masculine??? sitting on the TV, watching football while drinking beer with a belly eating chips??? Being a gigantic olaf?? Three Hundred Pounds??? Dropping out of school/college???

American men along with other "first world" men are least masculine IMO. True masculinity IMO comes from controlled-strength, a character trait that is formed by enduring hardship. You can find these men in any old black-n-white films. Old time music (pre-60s) also conveys this kind of masculinity.

American men today have never grown up and still act like little children even in their 40s and 50s - i.e. out of control. A man cannot be truly masculine without maturity and control. I can still find some masculine men among Eastern Europeans I have come across. Compared to them American men act like little spoiled brats.

Asian pop culture indeed glorifies effeminate male look and this disturbs me also. I believe guys try to look feminine to attract females who prefer that look. And why do these girls prefer "pretty boys"? I don't know. Maybe it's a form of subconscious protest against male-dominant society.

Here's one masculine Asian actor (I don't know how to post pictures)

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=takesi+kitano&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

[99999]

Asian pop culture indeed glorifies effeminate male look and this disturbs me also. I believe guys try to look feminine to attract females who prefer that look. And why do these girls prefer "pretty boys"? I don't know. Maybe it's a form of subconscious protest against male-dominant society.

Here's one masculine Asian actor (I don't know how to post pictures)

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=takesi+kitano&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

Is there a problem with it?? Does it harm their society?? Does it kill people and cause violence?

[nightshade]

Is there a problem with it?? Does it harm their society?? Does it kill people and cause violence?

I'm glad you're back.

[tokyolovestory]

That's Kitano Takeshi.. Or "Beat" Takeshi. I guess, yeah, he's "manly" looking, but he's also of a different generation.

[awong]

Asian pop culture indeed glorifies effeminate male look and this disturbs me also. I believe guys try to look feminine to attract females who prefer that look. And why do these girls prefer "pretty boys"? I don't know. Maybe it's a form of subconscious protest against male-dominant society.



ah come on, nothing wrong with that look

[nightshade]

ah come on, nothing wrong with that look

Yeah, that look is called hot. I like it when guys look like they take baths.

[Yi Dynasty]

Is there a problem with it?? Does it harm their society?? Does it kill people and cause violence?

There have "few" times in history when effeminate look and behavior were a social trend and almost without exception it has been a product of high prosperity accompanied by cultural decadence - e.g. late Greek and Roman empires, pre-revolutionary French and British aristocracy. And all these prosperous and decadent times were replaced by new civilizations who were more used to hardship and survival and consequently more "masculine" - e.g. late Greeks being replaced by pragmatic early Romans, late Romans by "barbaric" Germanics, Franco-British aristocracy being replaced by the tougher peasants which led to 20th c. totalitarianism.

I happen to believe history repeats itself and wonder if this trend is an indication of an "end of an age". Who knows - maybe another world war or some kind of global disaster is in store and the people who will start the new civilization will be - again - pragmatic, hard-boiled and masculine survivors.

[Yi Dynasty]

That's Kitano Takeshi.. Or "Beat" Takeshi. I guess, yeah, he's "manly" looking, but he's also of a different generation.

Yes he is and as history repeats itself it will produce a similar more masculine generation in future IMO.

[nightshade]

This all reminds me of the non-argument about bad boys in the bad boys thread.

[evil_FUX]

What's funny about all this is there initially is a statement that talks about real masculinity deriving in a form of a personality trait and seemingly implying that that's really all that matters. But then out of left field comes a statement relating masculinity back to appearance. WTF.

THEN there's a comment going back to the first statement (the personality trait) addressing a context and posited question not even relating to it. LULZ.

[tokyolovestory]

So is it about appearance or personality traits?

If you tell a 'pretty boy' that he's effeminate and he beats you down, do you feel small and disgusted with yourself for getting owned by a "girly" man?

[Yi Dynasty]

What's funny about all this is there initially is a statement that talks about real masculinity deriving in a form of a personality trait and seemingly implying that that's really all that matters. But then out of left field comes a statement relating masculinity back to appearance. WTF.

THEN there's a comment going back to the first statement (the personality trait) addressing a context and posited question not even relating to it. LULZ.

The way I see it I would not be masculine if I didn't act like I was masculine. And if I didn't act like I was masculine I would not look like I was masculine, either. :confused:

[evil_FUX]

The way I see it I would not be masculine if I didn't act like I was masculine. And if I didn't act like I was masculine I would not look like I was masculine, either. :confused:

Hmm, I see why you would derive the look you were talking about. But the way you put it made it seem like it wasn't correlated that tightly. In fact, it's kind of funny, to me at least, that you correlate the two so close together when I would think that if you're deriving masculinity from a personality trait that it wouldn't have any ties to image.

What precludes you from thinking those "pretty boys" aren't controlled or haven't undergone some hardship? After all it's just an style/trend of fashion, hair cut, or image.

[minbo]

While I do agree that excessive effeminate looks and behavior is brought about by high prosperity, I would dispute that cultural decadence is a required component of the function. I also dispute that effeminate looks and behavior is corollary to the downfall of civilizations beyond the natural cycle of empires...

After all, Hikaru Genji showed how enshrined effeminate looks and behavior was given high regard in the Heian period, but the Heian period did not end for almost another 200 years. True, they also valued what was traditionally considered "masculine" traits as evidenced with the popularity of warrior/Samurai tales, which is historically evident as gaining ascendancy and culminating with the Genpi wars and memorialized in the Tale of the Heike, but the dichotomy between masculine attractiveness and effeminate attractiveness in fellows is still strongly represented in Asia now as it was then.

Basicly, like politics, when you have clowns to the left of you, jokers to the right, most people get stuck somewhere in the anonymous middle...

[Yi Dynasty]

when I would think that if you're deriving masculinity from a personality trait that it wouldn't have any ties to image.

What precludes you from thinking those "pretty boys" aren't controlled or haven't undergone some hardship? After all it's just an style/trend of fashion, hair cut, or image.

That's exactly where we disagree. What you are referring to exists in mangas and computer games but not in real life IMO.

[Yi Dynasty]

While I do agree that excessive effeminate looks and behavior is brought about by high prosperity, I would dispute that cultural decadence is a required component of the function. I also dispute that effeminate looks and behavior is corollary to the downfall of civilizations beyond the natural cycle of empires...

After all, Hikaru Genji showed how enshrined effeminate looks and behavior was given high regard in the Heian period, but the Heian period did not end for almost another 200 years. True, they also valued what was traditionally considered "masculine" traits as evidenced with the popularity of warrior/Samurai tales, which is historically evident as gaining ascendancy and culminating with the Genpi wars and memorialized in the Tale of the Heike, but the dichotomy between masculine attractiveness and effeminate attractiveness in fellows is still strongly represented in Asia now as it was then.

Basicly, like politics, when you have clowns to the left of you, jokers to the right, most people get stuck somewhere in the anonymous middle...

There's actually something to what you say but that certainly was NOT the case at pan Asian level. Effeminate attractiveness in fellows has NEVER been strongly represented, e.g., in Korea in the past. I'm old enough to remember when this "look" was first introduced to Korean youth and if my memory serves me right it was through "girly mangas" imported from Japan.

[nottyboy]

Asian pop culture indeed glorifies effeminate male look and this disturbs me also. I believe guys try to look feminine to attract females who prefer that look. And why do these girls prefer "pretty boys"? I don't know. Maybe it's a form of subconscious protest against male-dominant society.


Not very familiar with Asian pop culture, but I think that "effeminate" look is glorified almost everywhere where artistic/personal expression [in dress] is allowed or accepted. The US had its share of "effeminate" front-men during the 80's glam rock phase.

I gotta say, though, that effeminate and pretty boy are two different things in my mind.

[King4aDay]

[QUOTE=nottyboy;47174]Not very familiar with Asian pop culture, but I think that "effeminate" look is glorified almost everywhere where artistic/personal expression [in dress] is allowed or accepted. The US had its share of "effeminate" front-men during the 80's glam rock phase. QUOTE]

I give you "Whitesnake" as proof positive.

http://www.popculturemadness.com/Entertainment/Pics/Whitesnake.jpg

[nightshade]

There's actually something to what you say but that certainly was NOT the case at pan Asian level. Effeminate attractiveness in fellows has NEVER been strongly represented, e.g., in Korea in the past. I'm old enough to remember when this "look" was first introduced to Korean youth and if my memory serves me right it was through "girly mangas" imported from Japan.

This is where you show your ignorance of sexuality in Asian history. There has been a long tradition of men taking on "masculine" and "feminine" roles in China and Japan. And since Korea has a long history as well, I would say that gender and sexuality was more flexible in its definition before Christianity took hold of the country.

For instance, the film The King and the Clown explores a passage from The Annals of Joseon Dynasty. One of the characters is a beautiful man.

http://yeehan.files.wordpress.com/2006/06/jun-ki.JPG

Yes, it's a film, but what I'm trying to say is that the history of gender sexuality of Korea didn't develop in your lifetime. What you remember of "real men" from your childhood doesn't represent Korean history for all time.

[minbo]

Actually I do think that it was prevalent throughout Asia for most of history since the Tang dynasty really formalized and promulgated civil scholarly testing a means of social and financial advancement. While not exactly embracing effeminate fashion, in Korea, in the early 1800s, you can see in the Memoirs of Lady Hyegyong the advancement of decidedly non-"masculine" traits as being admired. Lady Hyegyong's father is not some macho man, and Prince Sado is strongly admonished to not participate in martial masculine actvities. I think that what is in ascendency is a function of social conditions. In times of prolonged peace, "effeminate" looks/behaviors are more admired in men because they do better materially and socially. In times of strife and war, "masculine" traits are more admired. In Asia, up until very recently, there was a significant amount of strife, so I can see that the past 200 years or more, "masculine" traits were considered more desirable than "non-masculine" traits...

[minbo]

I wanted to add that Confusion, Taoist and Buddhist precepts all encourag behavior traditionally seen as "non-masculine". I can't think of any anthropological sources of reasonable "first person" to date a potential admiration of such traits off the top of my head, but I do think that there is historical precedence for a duality of "masculine" and "effeminate" traits, social, cultural and physical, both being differently attractive in men throughout history in Asia.

[nightshade]

I wanted to add that Confusion, Taoist and Buddhist precepts all encourag behavior traditionally seen as "non-masculine". I can't think of any anthropological sources of reasonable "first person" to date a potential admiration of such traits off the top of my head, but I do think that there is historical precedence for a duality of "masculine" and "effeminate" traits, social, cultural and physical, both being differently attractive in men throughout history in Asia.

In the study Passions of the Cut Sleeve, which examines the male homosexual tradition in China, there is a lot of evidence that men took on "non-masculine" roles in order to further their social standing. This tradition was recorded in the poetry of the day. Granted, the poetry was written by upper class citizens for upper class citizens.

There is the argument that this sort of man love and roles of masculinity and femininity were confined to the upper classes--but it seems that gender identity wasn't rigid. And that Confucian thought isn't the rigid man school of thought that Westerners seem to think it is.

[Yi Dynasty]

There has been a long tradition of men taking on "masculine" and "feminine" roles in China and Japan.
I'm aware of tradition of male actors taking "female" roles.
And since Korea has a long history as well, I would say that gender and sexuality was more flexible in its definition before Christianity took hold of the country.
And that assumption is based on?

For instance, the film The King and the Clown explores a passage from The Annals of Joseon Dynasty. One of the characters is a beautiful man.
I was referring to effeminate look as a trend. I'm sure there have been some "beautiful" men and other men who have found them attractive. There, however, have been NO RECORD of effeminate look ever being in trend by groups of males - like how it was with "refined" French and English aristocracy.

Yes, it's a film, but what I'm trying to say is that the history of gender sexuality of Korea didn't develop in your lifetime. What you remember of "real men" from your childhood doesn't represent Korean history for all time. Then show me a time in Korean - or other Asian - history where effeminate look was in trend by groups of males.

[Yi Dynasty]

Actually I do think that it was prevalent throughout Asia for most of history since the Tang dynasty really formalized and promulgated civil scholarly testing a means of social and financial advancement. While not exactly embracing effeminate fashion, in Korea, in the early 1800s, you can see in the Memoirs of Lady Hyegyong the advancement of decidedly non-"masculine" traits as being admired. Lady Hyegyong's father is not some macho man, and Prince Sado is strongly admonished to not participate in martial masculine actvities.
That's interesting. However, "scholarly" did not mean "effeminate" although scholars were indeed less masculine than warriors.

I think that what is in ascendency is a function of social conditions. In times of prolonged peace, "effeminate" looks/behaviors are more admired in men because they do better materially and socially. In times of strife and war, "masculine" traits are more admired. In Asia, up until very recently, there was a significant amount of strife, so I can see that the past 200 years or more, "masculine" traits were considered more desirable than "non-masculine" traits... That makes sense.

[Yi Dynasty]

There is the argument that this sort of man love and roles of masculinity and femininity were confined to the upper classes--but it seems that gender identity wasn't rigid. And that Confucian thought isn't the rigid man school of thought that Westerners seem to think it is.

I still don't see how you arrive at these conclusions. The way I read it Confucists were very clear about different roles of each sex.

[nightshade]

I still don't see how you arrive at these conclusions. The way I read it Confucists were very clear about different roles of each sex.

There is a belief in ying and yang--but people are not exclusively ying and yang. I'm saying that Asian culture is not the patriarchal cesspool of evil that Western society likes to frame it as.

Also, I don't understand why you're so quick to dismiss what minbo had to say about this idea of gender. He gave proof. And I gave specific proof. What do you have to offer besides your own personal experience?

Please refer back to what I wrote before:

In the study Passions of the Cut Sleeve, which examines the male homosexual tradition in China, there is a lot of evidence that men took on "non-masculine" roles in order to further their social standing. This tradition was recorded in the poetry of the day. Granted, the poetry was written by upper class citizens for upper class citizens.

P.S. This man, Leslie Cheung, was a huge star in the 1980s in Hong Kong:

http://www.aa2sbu.org/aaezine/images/C/LeslieCheung.jpg

[Yi Dynasty]

There is a belief in ying and yang-but people are not exclusively ying and yang. I'm saying that Asian culture is not the patriarchal cesspool of evil that Western society likes to frame it as. I agree but I don't see how that has anything to do with subject of effeminate social trend.

Also, I don't understand why you're so quick to dismiss what minbo had to say about this idea of gender. He gave proof. And I gave specific proof. What do you have to offer besides your own personal experience?

Please refer back to what I wrote before

The feeling I get when I read your posts is that you seem to have some kind of axe to grind. I'm not sure what that is though. Both what Minbo and you have pointed to was a "novelty", a unique object of art and adoration. I was talking about a socially accepted trend and I gave French/English aristocracy as an example. With them looking and acting effeminate was a sign of high class refinement at that time and the society accepted it as a legitimate trend and something to be emulated by aspiring elites. I don't think either China or Japan ever had such a socially accepted group trend.

Regarding your quote on a book; I had no idea what these "roles" were and could not comment on it. Again I'm aware of peasant boys taking female acting roles (not effeminate male roles) which would place them on a higher social level and also of those becoming eunuchs which would also place them on a higher social level. If there were other "roles" tell us what they were.

[nightshade]

The feeling I get when I read your posts is that you seem to have some kind of axe to grind. I'm not sure what that is though.

I don't like stupid people.

And again, this is the proof I was offering on the topic at hand:

In the study Passions of the Cut Sleeve, which examines the male homosexual tradition in China, there is a lot of evidence that men took on "non-masculine" roles in order to further their social standing. This tradition was recorded in the poetry of the day. Granted, the poetry was written by upper class citizens for upper class citizens.


The fact that you took this to mean eunuchs only shows your Western bias when you're discussing this issue.

I'm aware of tradition of male actors taking "female" roles.


Christ, this is about GENDER ROLES, not about acting. I would have said actors if I meant actors.

As for the homosexual tradition in Korea (not that that effeminate male identity should be necessarily be conflated with homosexuality--but you were asking for proof of flexible gender and sexual identities in Korea):

Homosexuality in ancient and modern Korea
YOUNG-GWAN KIM1, & SOOK-JA HAHN2
1Pyongtaek University, Pyongtaek, Korea, and 2Hanyoung Theological University, Seoul, Korea
Abstract
This paper examines Korean views on the subject of male homosexuality. Using historical and
contemporary sources, it seeks to explain elements of new cultural openness towards homosexuality
in modern Korea. Korean people’s understanding and knowledge of male homosexuality
is ambiguous and limited. In the absence of knowledge and open communication,
most Korean people imagine that male homosexuality is an abnormal and impure modern
phenomenon. Prejudice and confusion lead most Korean male homosexuals to be estranged from
their families, religious communities and non-homosexual peers. Moreover, they are often viewed as
the ‘carriers’ of AIDS and Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs). The purpose of this paper is to
examine current Korean perspectives on male homosexuality by exploring both the ancient history of
the practice of male homosexuality and current thinking about homosexual life among Koreans,
which has played an important part in the formation of contemporary attitudes toward
homosexuality.

You can view the full paper here (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:0moKwGIn-0kJ:www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homosexuality_in_Ancient_and_Modern_Korea.pdf+homo sexuality+korea&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca&client=firefox-a).

[Yi Dynasty]

I don't like stupid people.

And again, this is the proof I was offering on the topic at hand:



The fact that you took this to mean eunuchs only shows your Western bias when you're discussing this issue.



Christ, this is about GENDER ROLES, not about acting. I would have said actors if I meant actors.

As for the homosexual tradition in Korea (not that that effeminate male identity should be necessarily be conflated with homosexuality--but you were asking for proof of flexible gender and sexual identities in Korea):



You can view the full paper here (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:0moKwGIn-0kJ:www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Homosexuality_in_Ancient_and_Modern_Korea.pdf+homo sexuality+korea&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca&client=firefox-a).

LOL Never mind. Good luck with your grades.

[nightshade]

LOL Never mind. Good luck with your grades.

Hate to break it to you, but you're not that much older than me, or than other people on this board. In fact, you're acting like a giant retard in this discussion.

Good luck with your life.

[tokyolovestory]

LOL Never mind. Good luck with your grades.

Patronizing and offensive. I actually am still in school, and I find it to be irritatingly passive-aggressive and dismissive.

[nightshade]

Patronizing and offensive. I actually am still in school, and I find it to be irritatingly passive-aggressive and dismissive.

I took it to mean that I had achieved an epic win.

[evil_FUX]

The discussion at hand is what comprises gender roles and in particular the idea of masculinity. What you think Yi Dynasty is fine, and I can understand how you reach such a perspective.

Yet can't you see how a correlation between the character/personality trait you're referring to as tight as you think it is. I mean, your association with that character trait just happened to coincide with men that wore the general style of dress for a man in society that you grew up in.

If you grew up in the period of the French/English aristocracies that you're talking about, you'd probably think that that is the essence of being a man. But yes, you didn't, instead you grew up around people that didn't exude those styles of dress or attitudes.

And that's key part isn't it? Social trends can dictate what is masculine at the time even if it comes down to homoerotic acts as it did in past civilizations, but how is it that only those that adopt the current style of dress and have a character trait [which should be fairly universal] dismiss the ideas of masculinity that existed before? Just because it's the current socially accepted thing?

[minbo]

What evil_Flux wrote, I think that there is a bit of terminology shift going on. While I cited Hikaru Genji, Prince Sado, as specific singular examples, they were more as a specific illustration to prove social trend in the ruling classes in both countries in each of their time periods.

In the Gempei war that ended the Heian, the Tiara were considered foppish, weak and specificly by the Minamoto - effeminate because instead of focusing on marital arts and ability, they focused on civil administration, poetry, arts and Music, aescetic Buddhism, etc. A few of the figures on the Tiara side were specificly noted for their poetic and musical ability, combined with their physical soft beauty (especially the boy fluteist) and foppish finery in armour. Certainly they were able to aquit themselves well on the battlefield for a long time, or the war would not have been as long and tragic. And so, by standards of others beyond the Minamoto clan and Minamoto supporters, the Tiara were not effeminate, especially compared to Hikaru Genji.

The Minamoto, as a clan from the borders who were continually engaged in war, were considered far more "masculine", but uncultured and brutish. Most of their figures were noted for their martial ability, or tactical/stragetic acumen.

What is considered effeminate and masculine is very subject to personal and social conditions. Generally however, the ability to fight is considered masculine as well as the ability to perform hard labour, even though plenty of women in all ages have great ability to fight, and actually do engage in a lot of hard labour. For civil administration, scholarship is more prized than martial skills to conquor. For wealth, the ability to differentiate the ability to not engage in physical labour is prized. Scholarship and the lack of obvious signs of physical labour or athletic exhertion was often considered effeminate. Pencil neck geek vs athletic jock. Asian or Jewish nerd vs WASP football player.

The dualism of "effeminate" attractiveness and "masculine" attractiveness I believe did exist throughout the ages as an unfolding drama of civil administration vs border defense or border expansion, or between "working class" and aristocracy. Using social norms of the 20th century, we may not agree with the time and location specific traits that would correlate to "masculine" or "effeminate".