Western Bastardization of a Japanese Cultural Phenomenon

[AZN MAN]

I found this article interesting:

http://www.kyotojournal.org/gender/host_clubs.shtml

[timmyhos]

She writes more like a feminist than a serious researcher. I think her whole thesis was 'Westerners have misconceptions about Japanese culture!' Well no shit doctor. The opposite is just as easily true.

And what are hosts club but male geisha bars? Split hairs all you want but it's the same thing. Maybe not exactly the same thing, but whatever word you choose to use would be alien to a foreigner who has never experienced such places. I've seen a documentary on these male hosts on Google, and they're just like geishas minus the emphasis on female refinement.

Oh, and thanks for the article. But I always develop this urge to roll my eyes whenever I read a dissertation by an Asian female. I know in the article she criticized western people for not being able to recognize the nuances of language,but by the same token Asian females are not able (or unwilling) to see the nuances of their position in society either. Is it impossible to say that she doesn't hate being objectified, but that she only hates being objectified all the time or by the wrong people? It's like the numerous articles written by Asian women denouncing 'yellow fever' but are just as likely to have racial preference. Usually these articles come off sounding like advice for white men to start off on the right footing if they want to take her home and bang her.

[tokyolovestory]

I think I remember seeing host clubs mentioned in CanCam, or JJ or ViVi or one of those magazines that I was reading a while ago. I never got the hyper-sexualized image that is conjured by the way most Western people refer to them. One of my friends works as a cashier at a local Japanese grocery store and has worked there for a long time ago (6-7 years) and has gotten to know a lot of the regular customers. Often older ladies (like, 60-70 years old) will ask him to drive them to the mall, etc, and he'll accompany them and carry bags. The people at the store now call him "#1 Host," but there's nothing sexual about what he does for these people. He is, pretty much, a companion.

And timmyhos... My God, is there anything/anyone you don't hate on? Seriously.

[AZN MAN]

TH -

Japanese is a culture based on cleanliness and politeness; I could be considered a 'host' for accompanying my Aunts to the Train Station and carrying their suitcases, and for carrying their groceries from the store to their homes.

I didn't sense any white worship from the author of the article, but rather an attempt to counteract the insensitivity and lack of respect for different cultures other than "Western", as well as stating that Non-Westerners (Meaning Non-White) and women are marginalized by White Men.

Have you ever spent any time in Asia?

[kwak76]

I scan the article and actually I hate to say this but maybe for the first time I kind agree with Timmy input.

[nightshade]

She writes more like a feminist than a serious researcher. I think her whole thesis was 'Westerners have misconceptions about Japanese culture!' Well no shit doctor. The opposite is just as easily true.

<snipped for space>

But I always develop this urge to roll my eyes whenever I read a dissertation by an Asian female.

And I roll my eyes whenever I read anything you write. You're a YT apologist and you don't know it. Yeah, there are some fucked up Asian women who don't realize that they are hypocrites, but they're the minority. The actions of a few women shouldn't fuck shit up for all of us.

And Kwak, this goes to you, too. Yeah, there are bitches and retards out there, but it's not all Asian women.

It's like this: I don't hate on all Asian dudes because I've had several reject me in favour blonde girls--I just laugh at their sorry, whitewashed asses and move on to a more deserving boy. And there are so many hot boys out there, just like there are so many hot girls out there.

So could we please chill out on the Asian-women hating? God, I feel like such an asshole always bringing this shit up, but it bugs.

[evil_FUX]

I scan the article and actually I hate to say this but maybe for the first time I kind agree with Timmy input.

You can't be serious kwak. Like aznman, I captured no white worship. Besides your mind should be focused on the point she's making. I think you guys are reading more into the article and author than what's there.

[SamuraiJack]

I think she is correct in saying that Westerners (including non-whites) are unable to comprehend certain concepts of Japanese culture due to language differences.

On the other hand, I wonder if the sexualized treatment of her by Westerners (ie white people), are related to her area of study, or because she is an Asian female, or both.

[Scowl]

And what are hosts club but male geisha bars? Split hairs all you want but it's the same thing. Maybe not exactly the same thing, but whatever word you choose to use would be alien to a foreigner who has never experienced such places. I've seen a documentary on these male hosts on Google, and they're just like geishas minus the emphasis on female refinement.

And how would you describe a geisha bar and what a geisha does? Are you saying that they're prostitutes?

Are you seriously basing this view on one documentary that you saw on google?

On the other hand, I wonder if the sexualized treatment of her by Westerners (ie white people), are related to her area of study, or because she is an Asian female, or both.

I also wondered if those guys would have treated a white woman the same way.

Anyway, I have to admit that the term "sex work" sounds like some form of prostitution. I've never even heard the term used in the way it's been used in that article before. Using a different term would probably do away with some of the preconceived notions that that "sex work" carries. Hell, I hear the term and I expect that there's some kind of fucking going on.

[timmyhos]

And timmyhos... My God, is there anything/anyone you don't hate on? Seriously.

Sure.

TH -

Japanese is a culture based on cleanliness and politeness; I could be considered a 'host' for accompanying my Aunts to the Train Station and carrying their suitcases, and for carrying their groceries from the store to their homes.


Her argument is that Westerners have a misconception of what 'sex work' means to the Japanese. She says that Western men tend to take to a very literal translation of the word. The problem is that 'sex' is not a flexible term. You can't liken 'sex work' to host clubs without non-Japanese people developing a misunderstanding. Sex is penis, vagina, tits, lasciviousness, procreation, change in body chemistry and so on. But my understanding is that a host club has nothing to do with penis, vagina, procreation, or tits. It can certainly lead to that but so can the school and the office space. And while I am not entirely sure about school, I am positive that the office space isn't selling you sex.

The bottom line is that these clubs don't sell sex; they sell companionship. If sex was what one wanted then a prostitute would be more apt. So why on earth would you call it 'sex work'? I've seen many examples of these clubs but the image of sex just never came up. Is it then such a surprise that when she uses 'sex work' as a descriptor that it would elicit the wrong reaction by these men?

Would an F44 woman here, who knows what a male host club is, call it sex work? I think they would know better.


I didn't sense any white worship from the author of the article, but rather an attempt to counteract the insensitivity and lack of respect for different cultures other than "Western", as well as stating that Non-Westerners (Meaning Non-White) and women are marginalized by White Men.

Ask yourself if you've ever seen or heard of the following:An Asian woman, who is also a feminist, criticizes the way Western men demean and objectify Asian women, but who is also married to a White male.

So an Asian woman who criticizes the insentivity by Westerners is no more understanding or respectful of the cultural divide than if she was ignorant of it all. The only saving grace for these women is that such characteristics, while prevalent, can also be applied to the larger population. So, just as she asserts that Western men TEND to objectify her, reasonably I should be able to say that, generally, articles by Asian women are less about admonishing Westerners than they are a guide into their pants.

This only applies to stuff that I've read.


Have you ever spent any time in Asia?

I've never been to outer space, or the 1800s either, but don't hold that against me. And please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about just because I haven't been there since I was 3.

I scan the article and actually I hate to say this but maybe for the first time I kind agree with Timmy input.

You agree with me whenever there's a chance that I might be calling an Asian woman a sellout. You don't care about the reasons why, only that somewhere within my post there's some shit about CCBs and IR.

And I roll my eyes whenever I read anything you write. You're a YT apologist and you don't know it. Yeah, there are some fucked up Asian women who don't realize that they are hypocrites, but they're the minority. The actions of a few women shouldn't fuck shit up for all of us.

I'm concerned with the lack of responsibility by Asians; particularly Asian males. We have some legitimate scores to settle with whites, but I feel that our one major obstacle is intellectual dishonesty. Maybe I'm in the wrong place because F44 isn't keen on self-criticism but it's something I value. And it's something that is lacking in the community.


So could we please chill out on the Asian-women hating? God, I feel like such an asshole always bringing this shit up, but it bugs.

I have a rule when addressing Asian women: Always let the other guy bring it up. That's why I don't make threads about IR gratuitously.

And how would you describe a geisha bar and what a geisha does? Are you saying that they're prostitutes?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but geishas don't sell sex. They sell ideal femininity in a Japanese packaging. Usually they are expected to perform a number of perfected crafts like the art of dancing and conversation. It's a very refined artform which carries some catchet even in contemporary Japanese society. It's so far from prostitution.


Are you seriously basing this view on one documentary that you saw on google?


No, I've seen a number of references to host clubs. Both male and female clubs.


Anyway, I have to admit that the term "sex work" sounds like some form of prostitution. I've never even heard the term used in the way it's been used in that article before. Using a different term would probably do away with some of the preconceived notions that that "sex work" carries. Hell, I hear the term and I expect that there's some kind of fucking going on.

I think her dissertation would have been more valid if it was the Western men who used the term 'sex work' to describe host clubs. But since it was her who brought it up, she was wrongfully passing the blame to Western men. Ask the men if they would have called it 'sex work' and I don't think they would. The dissertation would not have a chance going beyond the introductory statement.

[evil_FUX]

There's clearly a disconnect with her article.

[Kuroyama]

A copy of a letter I just sent to Ms. Yamagishi:

Ms. Yamagishi

My name here is listed as Denshichiro Kuroyama but even though you have a Japanese name, I doubt you have ever actually met anyone named Denshichiro...

I am in fact a Black American who lives and works in Japan. Japanese is my 5th foreign language but the only one I can use to any real effect, so it may be as well to say it is my 2nd language. I began studies of Japanese back in 91. After 2 years I spent the next 3 years working in a hostess bar in Southern California. Though Ive spent a total of 5 years taking various courses formally and auditing... It could easily be said that Ive learned most of my Japanese from golf buddies, and through my work at the bar. Even after college I and my friends have spent quite a bit of money at such bars over the years.

I frequently post at a webforum called The Fighting 44s (www.thefighting44s.com/).
One of the current threads is based on a Kyoto Journal article found here http://www.kyotojournal.org/gender/host_clubs.shtml.

In my opinion the thread is losing direction based on a very popular misconception of hostess/host bars in the West and Im about to post words to that effect.
I dont know if the participating in, or simply reading the discussion may be of help in your studies... But I think the perspective of Asian males from the West could provide a very interesting perspective to your work that may not already exist.

I invite you to join the discussion.
http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5613

[Kuroyama]

IMO most guys from the west simply dont understand the whole host/ess bar concept to begin with. There may be a sort of Puritanically ingrained phobia involved with paying-for-companionship. The fact that sex MAY in some way be involved pretty much leads the western mind to the conclusion that sex is being purchased.

And whats Asian sex without some "geisha" thrown in to the mix? Despite the fact that the term geisha does NOT mean "prostitute", most Western, non-anglo men have a hard time understanding (have a hard time wanting to understand?) this idea.

So... Paid companionship from the opposite sex + Asian = Prostitution = Geisha.

In My Opinion IF (thats a big IF) you can get people to understand the premise that you can pay for companionship of the opposite sex (without the use of an engagement ring) and NOT be involved in prostitution... THEN you MIGHT be able to get them to understand the concept of Geisha, or Host/ess Clubs.

(For Ms. Yagamishi - if she shows)
Until you can break that judgemental association, There will not be understanding. Only nods of agreement followed by western guys eyeing your miniskirted legs.

Keep in mind that many Western anglo men still think you can go to Japan, buy a katana and train in the ninja arts... so to say "your work is cut out for you" is a big understatement.

[SamuraiJack]

Maybe I'm in the wrong place because F44 isn't keen on self-criticism but it's something I value.

LOL


............

[tokyolovestory]

The misconception of what geishas are/were is so prevalent in Western society now that not using terms like "sex work," is not going to be enough to counteract it. Whenever geishas came up in conversation with Westerners (whether friends, acquaintances, or even strangers), I *never* used the term "sex work," since I don't consider it to be so. However, even without the use of the word "sex" at all, people still thought that geishas were just stylized whores. Is it misleading (considering how Westerners think) to call it "sex work?" Yes. But I've never called it that, and the idea is still out there. The problem is, even if you call it "selling companionship," people will liken it to an escort service, which they still think is just high-class prostitution.

[kwak76]

Let me articulated why I had some issues with her article. I find that she seems to be naive in some of her view points. She thinks that Western men view her in a sexual way just because she was doing some research on “Host Club”. Western men would view her in a sexual way because she is woman and I don’t know if she even considers the thought that being an Asian female may or may not have played into it. .

Contrasting the viewpoint that Japanese man did not see she her as a sexual object doing this research well DHUH as an Asian woman in Asia it has a different dynamic vs. the Asian woman in the west. Instead she writes that Japanese men look down on the Host. Host Club in Japan has different definition but working as a Host is not considered something to write home about.

She attributes the language as being the key problem. To some extent I do agree. Sex can be defined differently in different culture. The way she defines sex in the west which can be debated is that sex is define by sexual intercourse. A host club in Japan as she defines it is just paid companionship.

I visited Asia but not Japan. I don’t have first hand experience in how a Host Club is like but I have seen paid companionship bars in Korea. Sex is not openly exchange but you pay a bar tab which is very high just so some girl will sit with you and talk to you. There is no sexual exchange but you’re still BUYING someone to be with you. This is where it gets murky. You’re buying someone to be with you. It’s a fine line as I see it.

I do agree with one aspect that a different word may have to come out to better educate people in the West about the different nuances. However, I just find her to be naïve in some of her position and I don’t know if she took the time to explore how being an Asian female may or may not have played into how Western man would of view her.

[kwak76]

You agree with me whenever there's a chance that I might be calling an Asian woman a sellout. You don't care about the reasons why, only that somewhere within my post there's some shit about CCBs and IR.


Were you abuse when you were young ?

Anyway, you said it not me.

[little mixed girl]

the problem is associating "host/hostess" with "sex work".
anything with "sex" in the name carries and image of sex.... hoohoodillies into chachas type of sex.

if someone told me they were researching "sex" work, i'd probably think of prostitutes, porno, and the like. i wouldn't be thinking of hosts.

so, if you describe hosts as "companions" or something like that, you clear up a lot of the confusion. imo