Thailand

[kwak76]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/25/books/25burd.html

I was just reading some articles in the NY Times and came across this article.

It's about some white guy who lives in Bangkok and visits the red light district and wrote some novels about it. His novels are fiction base but he uses the red light district as the back ground of the stories .

If you log into the NYtimes there is a short video clip of him speaking about why he does what he does.

He admits that he does not have a moral viewpoint of the red light district and just sees it for what it is. He mentions that he thinks these Thai girls choose to work in the red light district to help their family. He consider them to be brave and heroic in their action.

There was a question on the video log,"Are Thai girls better off working in the red light district?"

His answer was yes he thinks it is better because he see thems as being herioc in thier action.

I felt like gagging and if I every met this guy get a metal bat beat him with it and stuff up his ass. Typically fucking white guy answer in how they view the red light district.

- ---- ----------------------

[nottyboy]

I've seen both of his novels at the bookstore, and they piqued my interestest because I enjoy crime/noir books and movies. Too bad the guy sounds like a douchebag.

Calling the act of prostituting oneself "heroic" is questionable at best. If there were no other recourse for a person, I guess a sort of twisted logic could be used to justify calling it that, but that argument would be hard to buy.

Still, to say that a person is better off being a prostitute is idiotic to say the least.

[kwak76]

I visited Thailand a few years ago. I still remember the unique poignant
smell that Bangkok has. It must be from all those incense combined with the street vendors selling dishes that you would only find there.

I remember where I was staying. It was a popular tourist spot near Soi 3. It looks fairly develop from far away but as you get closer and actually look at the side walk you are walking on it 's pretty seedy and needs further development.

I stayed at a tourist hotel which is consider to be pretty high class with a 4 star. Safe and clean but not clean enough because every night when I checked in by myself I always see some western guys bringing in young Thai girls and had to pay an extra guest fee. Even when I went down the lobby to get a cup of coffee I see attractive looking thai girls hand in hand with white guys who could be twice their age.

Usually after my tour of the city I come back walking toward the Hotel and I notice a cut off alley with a steady stream of white guys marching in there with this look of hunger. I also notice a steady stream of partial nude with heavy make up thai girls coming and going. I decided to see for myself.

My first glimpse of the red light district. I was filled with awe , disgust, lust and shame. I was in awe because it was so damn huge . Disgust because it looked really seedy but felt lust because some of these girls were attractive. I felt ashamed for feeling that way.

I decided to see what's inside the go-go bars. This is the first time and I wanted to see what it's like. I go inside and it's dark kind of like a night club venue but with sex in the air. I sit down and girls are checking you out.

In a go-go bar the girls are dancing. Some nude some semi-nude. All of them have numbers either tie around their thigh or neck like they are cattles. These numbers are use to point out the girl that you want to take back to your hotel to fuck.

I look at the girls and the men in the room. Every guy in the room was white mostly 30's and up. They all had that look in their eyes. Look of desperation or hunger. I recognize that look because I have that look too sometimes. I think all men have that.

The girls were all young looking. The waitress has numbers too. I didn't realize it than but you could also take back any women in the bar. I order cola and some bikni clad thai girl who was probably no older than 21 sat next to me.

She had a innocent cute face. I still remember seeing some baby fat on her. She introduce herself and spoke Japanese. I told her I'm Korean and from America. When I said America her eyes opened wider. Her english was horrible. She wanted me to buy her. I forgot what I said I got up paid my drink and left alone.


Daze filled with lust and confusion I didn't know what to do. A strong part of me was tempted to get a girl but hated the idea because I didn't like what it stood for. Instead I focus on the customers. I sat at a outside bar. Most of the white guys there were from England judging by their accent. I was surprise to see one young and handsome looking English man. I didn't bother to talk to anyone of them. I decided to get drunk.

A part of me does not want to remember the rest of the night. All I remember is that I puked at some corner and was somewhere else but not at my hotel . I spoke to my tour guide about what I saw. She told me if she wants in a very causal way she could show me all the massage places and other red light district and than some. I asked her is this common. She said every guy that comes to Thailand does this.

I left Thailand with bitter memories and was sick when I got home . I did some research and I could write eassys in why red light district is happening.

These Thai girls given a choice would NOT want to work in the red light distict. Some of them do it because it's easy money to make. If they had other options they will choose other options.

Allot of the blame lies with the western tourist but also allot of the blame lies with the Thai society. They let this happen to themselves.

[nottyboy]

A friend of mine, who's in the Army, actually went to Pattaya on one of his tours. He said Thailand was probably one the craziest place he'd ever visited. Like, one guy had a boat full of of AK-47's he wanted to sell (I would have loved to see that).

The girls made him feel like Ricky Martin as soon as he got off the boat. He usually has girls in Puerto Rico, because he's not a bad looking guy, so it must have been some crazy attention he was receiveing. I got to see all the pictures of the bar girls (along with some really disturbing ones of Iraqui corpses, from his convoy tour in that country).

The way you describe the go-go bars, sounds just like the strip clubs in Montreal (dark, seedy), except for the number thing. That is really off-putting, as it reminds me of a cattle auction.

These Thai girls given a choice would NOT want to work in the red light distict. Some of them do it because it's easy money to make. If they had other options they will choose other options.

I really don't care if someone wants to be a whore, as long as it's a choice (and not forced); more power to them if that makes them money. I do have a bit of a problem with the popular idea that most only do it because there's truly no choice. In my mind, that would only be true if they were being indentured/forced, or lived in catastrophic conditions. Most of the time, though, people who turn tricks, specially in the West, are after the easy money, or have some sort of addiction that needs to be fed (and occassionally are fucked up in the head too).

All that being said, I have never visited Thailand. My uninformed impression is that there's a lot of people working very hard to make a little money. Other than that, though, I don't know what the conditions there are truly like, so maybe I just need to bite my tongue on this one.

[nottyboy]

I was surprise to see one young and handsome looking English man. I didn't bother to talk to anyone of them.

BTW, it doesn't matter. When I was in High School, a couple of the most popular guys (real bad boys too) used to visit this infamous prostitute bar called the 'Black Angus' in San Juan. I never understood it either, because their girlfriends were some of the hottest girls in our class too, and we knew they put out for them too.

Funny thing, though, is that last time I saw one of them, he had mellowed out a lot: good job, devoted father, fat and happy. :)

[maogirl]

Allot of the blame lies with the western tourist but also allot of the blame lies with the Thai society. They let this happen to themselves.

you know, kwak, i really really really want to rip you to shreds but i'm stopping because sb1 likes you, and since i love him, i'm going to go easy on you.

so, the thais let poverty and misery and prostitution happen to themselves, huh? just like the jews let the holocaust happen and africans let slavery happen, is that right? just like asian men let the stereotype of small dicks and passivity happen to themselves, right?

you know what i really dislike about you? you filter everythign through your own narrow-minded insecurities. you can't see past your own fucking self-centred views. you don't give a shit about the thai hookers, if you really did, then you would've donated to a fucking charity that helps rehabilitate them or something instead of just googling redlight districts so you could feel even more miserable about yourself and white men fucking asian chicks. what you give a shit about is how the misery of a 3rd world country affects YOU and YOUR insecurities.

you know what, you and the people who blame asians for letting poverty and colonization happen to us, have you ever looked in the mirror and taken responsibility for YOUR actions?

kwak, you make me laugh. you'll blame a girl who has no choice but to prostitute herself to feed her family for her actions but you don't even take responsibility for being a negative loser. in fact, i'm sure that thai prostitute takes more responsibility for her decisions than you do.

and to make it clear, i don't think you're a loser because of looks or popularity or whatever. i think that people who have been blessed like you and are fucking ungrateful about it are losers. when you were in thailand, you should've been fucking grateful that you were born a man and in the US and had money to travel and didn't have to risk dying of aids just to support your family. instead you sank into your self-indulgent, self-pitying mode...god, that's so fucking pathetic.

seriously, why do so many asian americans have this retarded fucking self-pity complex?

[Vahz]

MG, I think that Asian Americans, in general, are extremely insecure with themselves. In fact, I believe that Asians are the most insecure group of people in North America.

Thanks for reminding me for putting it into this thread.

http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5531&page=3

We just have this overwhelming desire to be accepted and want to be loved by others in order to feel validated, I think. However, doesn't the age old phrase state that no one can love you unless you love yourself first?

I popped by a post on another board that gave a great example of this in full effect:

How many times have you heard these phrases at various Asian American themed events:

* You don’t have to be Asian to join us!
* We are open to all kinds of people!
* We want to be accepting of people of all backgrounds!

Even now, years after I’ve graduated, I still return to my alma mater once in a while and I’m still sad to see that certain club/student organization events that bear names similar to “Asian Cultural ….. Event” or “Asian Cultural …. Fashion Show” are promoted with these phrases.

This incessant need to include non-Asian Americans in Asian themed events is kind of silly, because it’s almost like pandering and kow-towing to non-Asian Americans. If someone wants to attend, they’ll attend. It should just be left at that.

To throw some added perspective, take a look at this article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/23/AR2007102302126.html

The fact that research of this nature is actually needed really speaks volumes of the society we live in. Speaking of clubs and organizations, the upper management of the organizations being investigated are basically kind of like a club. Some would call them “an old boys club.” (Take a wild guess at the skin color of the members.) Are they so openly inviting non-whites by saying “you don’t have to be white-American to join our management organization!!”

Fun Fact: One of the most watched Chinese Language TV studios in New York is almost entirely employed by Asian Americans, but contains a management board that is almost exclusively white-American.

[SamuraiJack]

I have a problem with kwak's view on the Thais as well - it depends on who he is referring to though - if he means the wealthy and powerful Thais, then I would tend to agree that they aren't doing enough to solve the problem, even though Western capitalism/indirect imperialism is very hard combat - but if he means the Thai girls themselves - then he is dead wrong. They are doing what they have to do - poverty is the main reason for what they do, and the government should put more money in developing industries other than tourism.

Tourism and agriculture are the lowest forms of industry, because they have low barrier to entry and depend on the wealth of other nations for prosperity.

[maogirl]

MG, I think that Asian Americans, in general, are extremely insecure with themselves. In fact, I believe that Asians are the most insecure group of people in North America.

yeah, and so what? the problem isn't so much insecurity, but allowing yourself to indulge in it. asian americans love self-pity way too fucking much, i mean, to a ridiculous extreme sometimes.

here's a sample: i once ran (or limped rapidly) home after tearing a ligament on my hamstring because i was expecting a call from this ABC dude i was seeing at the time. he didn't call, i was pissed off, especially since my leg became inflamed after the 20-minute journey.

i sent him an email berating him and would you believe, instead of apologizing, the next time we spoke, he twisted everything around so that i was the the evil person who made HIM feel bad and i ended up having to apologize to him for being angry?

and that's exactly how almost every asian american dude i've met acts. what the fuck? if you guys keep blubbering over your insecurities, you'll never be able to change anything. if you can at least take responsibility for who you are and what you do, then that's how you can create change in yourself and in the world, seriously.

since i'm in a storytelling mood right now, let me share a little something about my family. my grandmom was widowed at a very early age in taiwan and she was alone and so poor that she had to sell her children, excluding my youngest aunt who was only a baby at the time. my eldest aunt, my uncle and my mom were purchased by farms who used them as slave labour and treated them miserably. my mom worked a fucking farm barefoot. she didn't get a pair of shoes to wear until she was 12 and the shoes were basically made out of old tires (nowadays, they'd be called nikes). my aunt, my uncle and my mom eventually ran away from their respective farms, but if you meet my uncle and my mom, they are the most positive people you've ever met (my eldest aunt is fucked up, though) and they have been through shit that ought to shame all of you on this board.

and the reason they managed to survive? it's because they didn't sit around feeling sorry for themselves. and what is also really important is that they recognized, even through all the terrible things that happened to them, that there were people still worse off, and my uncle and mom were always grateful that they at least had something more.

a lot of you so-called angry asian men aren't angry...you're just pathetic, self-pitying losers who have privileges that you aren't grateful for. if you were actually grateful for these privileges, then you'd DO SOMETHING with those privileges.


I have a problem with kwak's view on the Thais as well - it depends on who he is referring to though - if he means the wealthy and powerful Thais, then I would tend to agree that they aren't doing enough to solve the problem, even though Western capitalism/indirect imperialism is very hard combat

what the fuck? why would they change the system when it's obviously benefiting them?

at the end of the day, thais are just like any other fucking people in the world: there are predators and victims and there are those who try not to fall into either category.

perhaps this is the buddhist in me talking, but i accept that there will always be inequality in society, but it's up to us who are privileged not to fucking BLAME those who are more unfortunate than us, but to fucking HELP THEM.

seriously, what the fuck is kwak saying? "look at those women who have to sell themselves to earn a living? boo hoo, woe is ME. i feel so sorry for myself."

WHAT

THE

FUCK???

don't you see the problem in that attitude???

i am really never going to get involved with another asian american again, i'd rather get a white boyfriend. i feel so sorry for your parents. all the hardships they endured in the US to raise idiots like you.

[Dialectic]

here's a sample: i once ran (or limped rapidly) home after tearing a ligament on my hamstring because i was expecting a call from this ABC dude i was seeing at the time. he didn't call, i was pissed off, especially since my leg became inflamed after the 20-minute journey.

i sent him an email berating him and would you believe, instead of apologizing, the next time we spoke, he twisted everything around so that i was the the evil person who made HIM feel bad and i ended up having to apologize to him for being angry?

My sis's bf did something like that to her a while ago, where he got mad at her for being mad, and man was she mad after she realized what was going on! I admit that I found it kind of hilarious. Still, that's more of a guy/chick dynamic than a racial one, really. Chicks is crazy.

i am really never going to get involved with another asian american again, i'd rather get a white boyfriend. i feel so sorry for your parents. all the hardships they endured in the US to raise idiots like you.

Ouch! Well if it's not just an empty threat, make sure to land someone like Neil Gaiman, or perhaps Shia LeBoeuf in a pinch. They're dreamy yet down-to-earth.

[JadeDragon]

As I said before in the Korean talk show thread, D enjoys petting white men's thighs a lot more than those of Asian girls.

[Dialectic]

I try to get a good thigh-caress in at least once a day with any white man in close proximity. It's not my fault; Sheki introduced me to the activity when he taught me a white boy drinking game, "Chicken or Go." I haven't looked back.

[SamuraiJack]

I'm not sure if kwak is feeling sorry for himself because of his experience, but I guess the overall tone of his writing gives off that impression -- maybe writing about this topic with a focus on his own feelings gives off that vibe. It could be just kwak's style of writing.

I understand that it is usual for the people in power to resist change in the system - after all, if the system benefits a certain group of people, those people don't have much incentive to change it. I think the belief that there will always be "<xxx> in the world" serves as a scapegoat for some people for not taking action. I think people have to realize that, while you can never really eliminate something, you can minimize it. On my part, I've donated some stuff to kids in SE Asia, but always wonder if it will have any effect on the whole.

In my opinion, there aren't enough jobs for people to have an alternative - this is where global trade hurts developing countries. For instance, instead of people buying a drink from a local manufacturer, people will buy Coke which will help a bunch of rich white people. Instead of having money to spend to help the economy, they spend it on English lessons from white people because they it helps them get a job at a multinational. I personally believe that for any meaningful change to occur, the government needs to be pressured into making effective policies that will address the situation.

It annoys me when white people cry for democracy and freedom for Chinese people, when in reality, they don't give a shit about the actual welfare of the citizens, since they seem to indulge in the conditions in places like Thailand, where people joke about getting laid and whatnot. They view it as an "experience", without realizing that people have to live in those conditions whether they want to or not.

As well, I think that some Asian Americans have detached themselves from Asia, and feel a need to "buy into" the idea of assimilating into North American society. In some social circles, there is a certain pride in being a "CBC"/"ABC", and also some disdain for "fobs". Perhaps it's because of all the negative images in the media surrounding being Asian that Asian Americans feel the need for inclusion in North American society while at the same time separating themselves from Asians in Asia.

Anyways, my whole point is that I do agree with you that we do need to take action instead of just feeling sorry for them (or ourselves), but most of us can only help at a small level. While doing what little we can, we also need to strive to become successful enough to make changes on a bigger level.

[maogirl]

My sis's bf did something like that to her a while ago, where he got mad at her for being mad, and man was she mad after she realized what was going on! I admit that I found it kind of hilarious. Still, that's more of a guy/chick dynamic than a racial one, really. Chicks is crazy.

naw, he wasn't mad 'cause i was mad. if he was, i would've respected him more, but it was total self-pity over "making me suffer" and shit like that. i won't go into it but trust me on this one.


Ouch! Well if it's not just an empty threat, make sure to land someone like Neil Gaiman, or perhaps Shia LeBoeuf in a pinch. They're dreamy yet down-to-earth.


well, there's always that hipster whiteboy who reads my blog and stands outside my building looking up at my window at night. he's been doing that for a while now. he could be mixed, though, the uncles at the restaurant across teh street say that he speaks canto pretty well.

seriously, i attract some freaks.

[nightshade]

well, there's always that hipster whiteboy who reads my blog and stands outside my building looking up at my window at night. he's been doing that for a while now. he could be mixed, though, the uncles at the restaurant across teh street say that he speaks canto pretty well.

seriously, i attract some freaks.

Wow, I didn't realize that the magnitude of freak you attract had escalated to hipster whiteboy. Has he started serenading you with Beirut songs on his lute?

Ooh, maybe you'll meet a hot cop this way--you'll call for help and some Louis Koo lookalike will show up.

[jaehwan]

i am really never going to get involved with another asian american again, i'd rather get a white boyfriend. i feel so sorry for your parents. all the hardships they endured in the US to raise idiots like you.

Ouch. I don't think I have any good suggestions. Maybe Batman (rich, silent, brooding), but he's fictional.

Speaking of the differences between Asian Americans and Asians in Asia, I've heard (from Asians in Asia) that Asian Americans tend to be a lot more conservative than Asians in Asia. For example, young men and women living together in Asia is supposedly less of a big deal than people who do it here in the U.S. It's probably because of the influence of the Puritans here.

Is this true?

Maybe (and I tread lightly because I don't want to sound too ignorant, nor do I want to be the goof who confirms the reasoning behind your whiteboy threat) sex isn't as big of a deal in Thailand as it is here. Actually, with Pat Robertson on the airwaves and James Dobson in Washington, I'd be surprised if it were as big a deal anywhere else. If the news reports are to be believed, no one outside the U.S. really knew why the Clinton-Lewinsky thing was such a big event here. Have you ever noticed that all the droopy moralists in the religion section tend to live in the U.S.?

Prostitution is clearly not something that any society uses for bragging rights, but could it be that cleaning it up is not as big of a priority in Thailand as it is here in the U.S. or overseas in the Catholic schools?

[maogirl]

Wow, I didn't realize that the magnitude of freak you attract had escalated to hipster whiteboy. Has he started serenading you with Beirut songs on his lute?

Ooh, maybe you'll meet a hot cop this way--you'll call for help and some Louis Koo lookalike will show up.

hahah, i wanted to write about it in my blog, but then i realized that it might be encouraging him.

he basically asked people in this area which building i lived in and you know how everyone knows which flat i'm at, and one of the bartenders asked why and he said he read my blog or something.

dude's harmless, i could take him and he'd weep emo tears. dyed(?) black hair, skinny jeans...he must be bored shitless hanging around outside. maybe he'll pull a lloyd dobler and people will throw trash at him.


Ouch. I don't think I have any good suggestions. Maybe Batman (rich, silent, brooding), but he's fictional.

Speaking of the differences between Asian Americans and Asians in Asia, I've heard (from Asians in Asia) that Asian Americans tend to be a lot more conservative than Asians in Asia. For example, young men and women living together in Asia is supposedly less of a big deal than people who do it here in the U.S. It's probably because of the influence of the Puritans here.

Is this true?

HELL

NO.

who the fuck said that?? that's utter and complete bullshit.

people are really conservative in asia!! dear lord, you can't even be seen leaving your boyfriend's house much less move in with him! only whores do that!!! my dad was crushed when he found out that i was living with CBC exbf. in fact, i gotta say, i got tears in my eyes the first time we were allowed to share a room when we visited my parents 'cause it meant that my dad had finally resigned himself to kev's presence in our lives. then, of course, we broke up and my dad was like SO HAPPY, he called me long distance (which he never does 'cause he's a miser) and was like, "TELL ME IT'S TRUE YOU DUMPED THAT CANTO MONSTER!"

i seriously could hear the pride and joy in his voice, tsk.

with that said, this is a middle to upper class hypocritical attitude towards sex and sexuality. the poorer people are more likely to be less conservative and also to understand and be more frank about sex as currency.

prostitution is hard to clean up because...hell, i'ts prostitution! as long as men want to fuck, and women are desperate enough to sell themselves, how can you stop it? plus add to that the corruption in postcolonial societies, etc.

besides, why would a privileged asian give a shit about some poor hooker who's going to die of AIDS anyway? in fact, their presence allows us to feel superior and take our baser needs out on them, no?

[jaehwan]

HELL

NO.

who the fuck said that?? that's utter and complete bullshit.

people are really conservative in asia!! dear lord, you can't even be seen leaving your boyfriend's house much less move in with him! only whores do that!!! my dad was crushed when he found out that i was living with CBC exbf. in fact, i gotta say, i got tears in my eyes the first time we were allowed to share a room when we visited my parents 'cause it meant that my dad had finally resigned himself to kev's presence in our lives. then, of course, we broke up and my dad was like SO HAPPY, he called me long distance (which he never does 'cause he's a miser) and was like, "TELL ME IT'S TRUE YOU DUMPED THAT CANTO MONSTER!"

i seriously could hear the pride and joy in his voice, tsk.

with that said, this is a middle to upper class hypocritical attitude towards sex and sexuality. the poorer people are more likely to be less conservative and also to understand and be more frank about sex as currency.

Actually I've heard two different things from two different parts of Asia. In college, I knew two different women. One was born in Shanghai. She said that people are REALLY conservative in China, more so than here. She said it was so conservative that it was oppressive. She eventually ran to a white guy at the very first chance she got. We didn't care though, because her face looked like the back of a horse.

The second told me that Asian Americans are more conservative. This girl was from Singapore, and she came from a wealthy family. She was a total party girl. She only dated rich, native born, Hong Kong and Singaporean men though, so we Asian American men responded by throwing a pity party with a slightly different flavor--"Shit, man, what he got that we don't? (other than a Lexus, his own house, a maid to clean after him, perfect Cantonese fluency, ability to understand the subtleties in those Chow Yun Fat movies, etc. etc.)"

I actually had a pretty long discussion about conservatism with the second girl. She pointed out that a lot of the HK students were cohabitating at college, and that a lot of the Asian Americans weren't. It was totally true. She said that where she was from, people just don't care as much.

Maybe things are different in different parts of Asia. I know a few people in Japan who cohabitated before marriage, and I know a few who just never got married. I know a few cohabitating Asians from Asia where I live, and I know almost no Asian Americans who are doing that.

Maybe it's because numbers-wise, there are more liberal Asians from Asia compared to our small Asian American population. Or maybe Asians from Asia are just getting more action, since the system is so heavily stacked against Asian American men. (That last sentence was just a joke...)

besides, why would a privileged asian give a shit about some poor hooker who's going to die of AIDS anyway? in fact, their presence allows us to feel superior and take our baser needs out on them, no?

If you're a rich Asian living in a poor country, getting rid of prostitution could benefit you financially since it increases the potential size of your workforce, and it could enable you to get into manufacturing or software, both of which, I'm guessing, are probably more profitable for owners than prostitution if for no reason other than the size of the customer base. Outside of commodities, anything that can be made, packaged, and exported, I think, pays more than something which can't. By eliminating prostitution, you also raise the reputation of your country's exportable goods, which makes it easier for you to do international business.

Of course, then you'd also have to spend money and time getting rid of prostitution, educating the people, etc. But I think overall it probably pays off.

[kwak76]

I have to re-read this thread to get a better grasp of people position so I probably write more later.

Just two key points.
1. The first time I saw Thailand I was more shocked and felt some guilt.
2. I don't think it was self-pity.

For those of you that never been to a red light district it's an eye opener. I wanted to travel and see more of the world. I choose Thailand because it was close to South Korea and it would of been easy to go back and forth plus Thai baht is much weaker than the dollar so i was able to travel cheap over there. I also wanted to experience Thai boxing camp up close and personally.

The Red light district was a detour but it stuck to me because it's not something I experience before.

Maogirl,

you say that I blame thai people for this. To a degree I do. I know you want to flame me but much of the sex tourism that is set up in Thailand is kind of like a business venture between the Thai tourist and the western partners that come in to exploit it.

It's similar to the Korean red light district that was around back in the 1980-1990's. Sb1 knows more about the Korean red light district better than me but the way he explained it to me has some over lap with the inner workings that sound so much like Thailand and the Philippines.

First and foremost most if not all sex tourism out of Asia (as I see it ..people may disagree) came from US military occupation. Some others will say the true start came from Japanese occupation (at least for Korea ) but Thailand has never been occupied.

Back in the 1960's Thailand needed US dollars and agree to have service man come to their country for I&I.(maogirl you can correct me if I'm wrong I got this info from some of my research)

After the Vietnam war the US troops were replace with the German tourist. Some of these go-go bars are run by western man married to local girls who drive the sex tourism.

However, back than most of the girls that work in these go-go bars were local Bangkok girls. As the Thailand economy started to rise albeit not as quickly as the other South East country the the girls that work in the go-go bars started to shift. Instead of local Bangkok girls they were replace by girls from Issan.

Issan is the probably the poorer part of Thailand and I heard cases of Chang-mai having girls working the bars too. I agree that poverty is what drove them to work in these bars but back in 1960's it was mostly Bangkok girls as the Thai economy improved and more jobs came about the Bangkok girls do not work in the go-go bars but are replace by girls from poorer section of Thailand.

Girls from Burma are sometimes kidnap to work in these bars but from what I read it is usually for the Thai customers. Anyway..there is so much more..


What people don't know about Thailand is that there is a middle class. After my visit to the red light district I tried to (I don't speak Thai so I use my guide or anyone that spoke english) speak to locals in Bangkok in thier attitude about it. You know what response I got. Blind ignorance !!!!!!

I don't know if it was culture thing but my tourist knew about it and I ask my tourist guide about how does the local Thais feel about this. His repsonse was it's been here so long they are used to it.

However, to be fair the local Thais are trying to change this image but I really think the real reason the local Thais are trying to change it is because they are now being judge from an international view point.

This is very similiar to South Korea red light district. South Korea started to crack down on the red light district more out of how foreigners will think of their country instead of moral reasons.

Did I feel sorry for myself that I went to thailand. No . Did I feel angry, ashamed and guilt. Yes.
Did I tried to do anything about it yes. So far the only activist group that deals with sex tourism but mostly for the Philippines sides are gabnet organization.

[kwak76]

To make my position clear I'm not blaming the girls that work in the bars I'm blaming the system that is set up that supports this.

it goes hand in hand with the western tourist (now growing wealthy Asian tourist) and the Thai TAT tourist industry.

Thailand is trying to change this though but it's so corrupted that it's not going to be easy.

[VeryAngry]

The first time I went into a Thai red light district out of morbid curiosity was also the time that I swore that I would never have anything to do with such a system.

Yes, some of the women were attractive. Their lack of clothing and suggestive mannerisms were extremely hypersexual, and in stark contrast to the repressive sexual mores of wider society.

Imagine men who have been taught and trained from birth to think that sex was somehow wrong and improper, that it was only to be done under strict conditions such as the social contract of marriage, or committed only under the pre-condition of higher values such as love and monogamy, coming into a place where all of a sudden all their sexual fantasies and urges could be realised for a price, without any judgement or long term obligations.

I believe that this is the primary allure of prostitution in Asian countries. Prostitution is the recourse for men who cannot fulfil their sexual lives in wider society, and for the women it is a recourse for the economic power that they are unable to achieve. Why work in a market to get a pittance, when prostitution in the prime of their years could bring thousands of dollars and a lifestyle of luxury that most cannot afford?

The redlight districts are like human zoos at best. All of those people walking down the streets gawking at the workers and denizens there like circus animals, and all those working girls looking at those same tourists and johns with cold eyes and fake smiles, taking in every detail and every nuance to size them up.

I took a good look at the people around me on my side of the street, and it was not hard to see the way things looked through hookers' eyes. You have whole groups of men and women being treated like animals in a zoo to be gawked at, made to perform tricks like in a circus for the sake of entertaining the curious and the selfish, and then bought like cattle or induced to sexual service like beasts of burden. The sex tourists cease to become people also. Their primary significance becomes what they are able and willing to trade for their entertainment, and johns are easy to read because they are so mindlessly transparent. One look is all it would take to know how much a john would be willing to pay, his level of naivety, gullibility or submissiveness, where his points of pride lie, what his temperament is like, and what his predilections are. It is all part of the market and the barter where human life has become nothing more than a commodity and thing.

I doubt that this is what sex was ever meant to be. The thing I feel the most is pity, and also utter contempt for what people have allowed themselves to become. I make no apologies for this.

I visited Thailand a few years ago. I still remember the unique poignant
smell that Bangkok has. It must be from all those incense combined with the street vendors selling dishes that you would only find there.

I remember where I was staying. It was a popular tourist spot near Soi 3. It looks fairly develop from far away but as you get closer and actually look at the side walk you are walking on it 's pretty seedy and needs further development.

I stayed at a tourist hotel which is consider to be pretty high class with a 4 star. Safe and clean but not clean enough because every night when I checked in by myself I always see some western guys bringing in young Thai girls and had to pay an extra guest fee. Even when I went down the lobby to get a cup of coffee I see attractive looking thai girls hand in hand with white guys who could be twice their age.

Usually after my tour of the city I come back walking toward the Hotel and I notice a cut off alley with a steady stream of white guys marching in there with this look of hunger. I also notice a steady stream of partial nude with heavy make up thai girls coming and going. I decided to see for myself.

My first glimpse of the red light district. I was filled with awe , disgust, lust and shame. I was in awe because it was so damn huge . Disgust because it looked really seedy but felt lust because some of these girls were attractive. I felt ashamed for feeling that way.

I decided to see what's inside the go-go bars. This is the first time and I wanted to see what it's like. I go inside and it's dark kind of like a night club venue but with sex in the air. I sit down and girls are checking you out.

In a go-go bar the girls are dancing. Some nude some semi-nude. All of them have numbers either tie around their thigh or neck like they are cattles. These numbers are use to point out the girl that you want to take back to your hotel to fuck.

I look at the girls and the men in the room. Every guy in the room was white mostly 30's and up. They all had that look in their eyes. Look of desperation or hunger. I recognize that look because I have that look too sometimes. I think all men have that.

The girls were all young looking. The waitress has numbers too. I didn't realize it than but you could also take back any women in the bar. I order cola and some bikni clad thai girl who was probably no older than 21 sat next to me.

She had a innocent cute face. I still remember seeing some baby fat on her. She introduce herself and spoke Japanese. I told her I'm Korean and from America. When I said America her eyes opened wider. Her english was horrible. She wanted me to buy her. I forgot what I said I got up paid my drink and left alone.


Daze filled with lust and confusion I didn't know what to do. A strong part of me was tempted to get a girl but hated the idea because I didn't like what it stood for. Instead I focus on the customers. I sat at a outside bar. Most of the white guys there were from England judging by their accent. I was surprise to see one young and handsome looking English man. I didn't bother to talk to anyone of them. I decided to get drunk.

A part of me does not want to remember the rest of the night. All I remember is that I puked at some corner and was somewhere else but not at my hotel . I spoke to my tour guide about what I saw. She told me if she wants in a very causal way she could show me all the massage places and other red light district and than some. I asked her is this common. She said every guy that comes to Thailand does this.

I left Thailand with bitter memories and was sick when I got home . I did some research and I could write eassys in why red light district is happening.

These Thai girls given a choice would NOT want to work in the red light distict. Some of them do it because it's easy money to make. If they had other options they will choose other options.

Allot of the blame lies with the western tourist but also allot of the blame lies with the Thai society. They let this happen to themselves.

[VeryAngry]

I wonder if poverty is a legitimate reason for anything. Until very recently, much of Asia was poor. Even Singapore was three fifths swampland a mere fifty years ago.

One of the strongest impressions I've ever had the benefit to form was through noticing difference. On the one hand, you have poor people who prostituted themselves, took drugs, became alcoholics, gambled away what little money they had, joined in gang activities, and partook in violent crime, and their numbers are significant.

On the other hand I knew just as many poor people who made the choice not to do any of those things. The differences are almost absolute. Whereas one category seems to be stuck in an existential funk and appears to be living only from one day to the next, the people in the latter category are by contrast very focused on building something of tangible value for the long term. Above all is their concept of self worth and pride. Not a single person I've known from that latter category would allow their sons to commit violent crime or their daughters to prostitute themselves, no matter what the end goals are. It's just not considered legitimate.

People have always survived through hard times like war, famine, and enslavement. Perhaps more insidious than these factors is the gradual debasement of human life and its worth, and the ignorance that results from the complete loss of understanding of a better way to live.

Thailand is such a huge country with such abundant natural resources, and it scrapes my nerves raw to know how many people in that country live in abject poverty. Even the middle class did not expand until relatively recently, and even then, their significance as a middle class lies in their ability to consume goods and materials. Prostitution and human trafficking would exist NOWHERE if there were no people willing to enslave others or turn a blind eye to such deeds. I feel that whenever a trade in human life like this exists in any place, then it is a good indicator of either a failure of leadership or social mores.

[maogirl]

jaehwan, dude, you're getting confused between what really goes and and what society pretends goes on in asia.

here's a really great article by sandip roy about how people can turn a blind eye to what really goes on as long as it's not actually put in their face.
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=5fdef7483ffae957b98a1 44b74f26f5f&from=rss

the article refers to homosexuality, but the same can be said of sexual attitudes as well.

do people in asia have sex and cohabit? of course they do, but is it considered "normal" by society the way it is in the west? no, it's not.

also, your singaporean friend is a WEALTHY PARTY GIRL. of course she can fuck openly wihtout consequence. it's like paris hilton releasing a sex tape and being able to have a career while someone who's got a real job and has real responsibilities woudl be crucified. and speaking of, the vietnamese actress who had a sex tape leaked last week is basically ostracized now because she was supposed to be this paragon of virginity and modesty.

and as for the asians living together in the US, uh...the people who leave asia are not the same as the ones who stay here. and think about it, you come from a place where everyone knows your business and your parents are so strict and suddenly, you go to another country where it seems like anything goes, hell of course, you'll "go wild."



By eliminating prostitution, you also raise the reputation of your country's exportable goods, which makes it easier for you to do international business.

Of course, then you'd also have to spend money and time getting rid of prostitution, educating the people, etc. But I think overall it probably pays off.

yeah, but who thinks logically like this? if peopel did, then there wouldn't be corruption or adultery or whatever.


Maogirl,

you say that I blame thai people for this. To a degree I do. I know you want to flame me but much of the sex tourism that is set up in Thailand is kind of like a business venture between the Thai tourist and the western partners that come in to exploit it.

my point is that it's ironic that you think thais should take responsibility for their actions but you don't do it for yourself. and my problem wiht you is that you judge people without thinking of the circumstances that they're in, like talking about "blind ignorance," fuck off, you're the one who's ignorant.

put yourself in their shoes: here you are, a local thai just trying to get by in a corrupt and unforgiving city, and here comes this rich american guy with his translator askign you all about the red light district, which is mostly set up for people like him anyway. what are you supposed to say? don't you think you've offended their pride?

ah fuck it. what's the use? you haven't changed from when you sent me that email last year, all you think about is YOURSELF and YOUR VIEWS...you're SO FUCKING AMERICAN.

and honestly, i don't care enough about you to try to help you any more, so consider this my last attempt at being kind.

[VeryAngry]

Is this the part where Kwak is supposed to cry "Boo hoo"?

I hope not.

[maogirl]

one thing i can say about kwak, he's not a little bitch like you. look at you, you're still hurt from all the shit i told you before.

don't worry, very little one, time heals all wounds. time won't heal your VD, though.

[VeryAngry]

Hahah, ok. :D

[Subwaybrum]

Sorry, getting off topic, but I was wondering if anyone can confirm the story that the two teens executed in iran were convicted of raping a 13 year old boy at knifepoint rather than homosexuality. Supposedly the homosexuality thing was based on a mistranslation.

http://groups.google.com/group/HRFA/browse_thread/thread/fa3291378f23516a/15b84e6ef0abc5dd

[jaehwan]

VeryAngry,

Why are you still here? You must be a masochist.


Maogirl,

Thanks for the article. I'm not living in Asia, and you definitely know a lot more about lifestyles and culture there. I actually lived in Japan for a year, and I knew some cohabiting couples, but I wasn't there long enough to see the full picture.

The only point I would make is that Asian Americans are REALLY conservative as well. I don't know how Asian Americans and Asian Asians stack up against the other, but we have some extreme conservative tendencies as a culture. In Asia, it sounds like many feel pressure because they don't want to make the family look bad; here, we don't want to make the family look bad, PLUS we don't want to make the race look bad. Look at all the infighting you see when people discuss Asian American media. It's all about being what other Asian people want you to be, both on the personal level (families) and on the societal level (representation, media, etc.) In some cases it's justified, in others not. The inclusion of fundamentalist Christianity has also been a strong influence in our Asian American "culture." We face societal condemnation for sinning, and we also face eternal damnation.

(On a serious note, I'm not trying to play the pity game. Just trying to say that there are real social forces at work among Asian Americans which create some pretty strong conservative momentum.)

also, your singaporean friend is a WEALTHY PARTY GIRL. of course she can fuck openly wihtout consequence. it's like paris hilton releasing a sex tape and being able to have a career while someone who's got a real job and has real responsibilities woudl be crucified.

Gotta love those party girls. There were actually a few of these types in college. I think I spent too much time talking to the wrong people to represent the culture. Or maybe that's the kind of world we'd all like to live in for three or four years...without the notoriety, of course.

[maogirl]

Maogirl,

Thanks for the article. I'm not living in Asia, and you definitely know a lot more about lifestyles and culture there.

well, in my case, i don't really know american culture beyond having lived in canada, and it seemed like the asian canadians were pretty open about being sexually active and shit.

again, i think it's a class issue as well. a lot of "nice" middle class girls have sex for the first time when they get married, i believe the average number of sexual partners for middle class hk girls is like 1.2 or something. i have no idea what the .2 is...vegetables??

honestly, i don't see what's wrong with being conservative, i'm pretty conservative in a lot of ways as well.


subway, i was under the impression that the rape was a false charge? i confuse lah.

[jaehwan]

well, in my case, i don't really know american culture beyond having lived in canada, and it seemed like the asian canadians were pretty open about being sexually active and shit.

That's because Dialectic and Lopan live in Canada and love to get people talking. Haha. I think the 44s allows us non-Canadians to start getting involved. Kwak, what's the difference between your interactions here and in person? Are you more liberal on-line?

1.2? Gosh, that is low for a societal average.

Actually, I agree with you on the conservative thing too; outside of politics, I'm personally pretty conservative myself. I just think conservatism--like liberalism--can become extreme when certain people like James Dobson start shoving their values down the throats of others. Sometimes I think we Asian Americans do the same and just wind up putting ourselves into a culture of fear, which is unhealthy for everyone.

[Subwaybrum]

subway, i was under the impression that the rape was a false charge? i confuse lah.

i'm as confused as you are. :S

[kwak76]

my point is that it's ironic that you think thais should take responsibility for their actions but you don't do it for yourself. and my problem wiht you is that you judge people without thinking of the circumstances that they're in, like talking about "blind ignorance," fuck off, you're the one who's ignorant.

put yourself in their shoes: here you are, a local thai just trying to get by in a corrupt and unforgiving city, and here comes this rich american guy with his translator askign you all about the red light district, which is mostly set up for people like him anyway. what are you supposed to say? don't you think you've offended their pride?

ah fuck it. what's the use? you haven't changed from when you sent me that email last year, all you think about is YOURSELF and YOUR VIEWS...you're SO FUCKING AMERICAN.

and honestly, i don't care enough about you to try to help you any more, so consider this my last attempt at being kind.


Fair enough. I like your candor and to be honest I don't know why but half the time I always get a chuckle when you rip into me. I think I'm starting to see why SB1 and you could get along so well.

........

Getting back to Thailand . I think over the years there has been improvement . Back in the 1980's I think the sex trade was at it's peak . From some of the accounts the sex trade has gotten down .

[kwak76]

jaehwan,

In person I'm pretty laid back and mellow.

I think Asia as a whole is still conservative but changing at rapid pace( when it comes to sexual mores) . At least this is for the case for South Korea. I can't speak for other Asian countries because I haven't been there to experience it first hand. However, I heard Japan is pretty liberal.

The Asian American crowd you have to go by case by case. Some are really liberal where as others are conservative. It's too much of a general statement to say everyone is like this or everyone is like that.

You brought up an interesting topic.

I lived in Korea in 2004 for 5-6 months.
South Korea is changing at a rapid pace when it comes to sexual mores. What took America 10 years to change Korea is doing it in half the time if not faster.

I still think Korea is conservative compared to America when it comes to sexual mores. When it comes to individuals it's case by case for American or a Korean person.



The 20-30's age group for the Korean American you meet in America are 1.5 generation or second generations . My parents are the first generation.

They grew up post-civil Korean war. They grew up during the 1970's when you had the South Korean military govt. in place. Very conservative time.

Allot of the values system the first generation place on the 1.5 and second generation are the really conservative Korean values.

Where as South Korea value system change through out the years. As South Korea values change the Korean people change to accept those changes.

Here in America the first generation cannot relate to white people so retain the traditional values that they know. In some cases you meet Korean American families who are very traditional more so than a Korean family in Korea. On top of that you have the KCF (Korean Christian fellowship). Come to Queens , NYC and take a walk with me around flushing. You could sometimes count two Korean churches in the same block. You meet a fair number of 1.5 generation who are Korean christians.

So in some cases the Korean Americans can be very conservative when it comes to sex. Not all the time mind you.

[PHOENIX88]

Kwak 76 described his experience in thailand then stated his opinion.

I TOTALLY AGREE KWAK76!

i stayed in thailand for a while last summer, in bangkok. I have family who live there a well.i saw the red light districst around Patpong and siam square. Everything kwak describes,- the young heavily made up women, the hawkers/bouncers selling the prostitutes on the street, everything is true. You go down the street and all these scantily clad women in miniskirts are standing outside the doorways of clubs calling out in english" hello , you want a good time?" to any male that walks past,- men go up to you and say without warning"hey you want good pussy? good fuck, cheap price" in thai accented english.

the only thing i disagree was that it wasnt only WHITE males i saw around that place. While maybe 70-80% of the men walkng around those places WERE WHITE,UGLY AND ABOVE 40YRS + there wre also large groups of japanese men walking into those places as well. They even had a whole street in Patpong where all the signs are in japanese, the whole street looked like you were in japan. When i asked my friend(who was born and raised in bankok) "why they have a whole street of brothels and parlours written in japanese ?" she replied" they like to have their own place"

So its not only the white tourists who exploit these places, its also other asians(well specifically japanese men) i dont know why, but i thought it was so weird. i mean you never see this in China or HK or Vietnam( all the japanese sx tourists and japanese signed brothels)

But i totally agree with kwak76 opinion when he says that Thai people "let this happen to themselves"

What occurs in a society is a product of that society culture.

Thailand is a poor country, but then again so was singapore, so was south korea, so was china(still is but growing)

during the 1960s Thailand and south korea had the same level of GDP, but korea modernised, developed their education system their transport, public service. What did thailand do? become mired in corrupion, squander money away into the military,etc.

In the 80s they used to call Thailand s economy the 5th TIger of asia( The other four being HK, South korea, Singapore And Taiwan) but you dont hear that any more lol, meanwhile those four asian economies have gone on to become newly industrialised economies with rising gdp and living standards every year.

It is a product of the "get money quickly, dontcare about anything else" mentality Thai culture that causes thailand to be so poor and willing to uses their people as cum dumpsters for foreign tourists.
Just like new technology developement is the manifestation of the innovation and free thinking aspect of American liberal culture.

It comes down to hundreds of years of having a very patriachical and class/heirachical society. Even though they have "democracy" in thailand, they dont have a democratic culture. people are not considered equal. those with money are better, white people even more so. Think about the worst, raw capitalistic, make money(dont care about human life or society or law and order) aspects of American society and multiply it by 1000, that is what the whole of thai society is like, even the wealthy classes think like this.

thats why they have whole blocks of young thai (some looked underage)girls prostituting themselves for maybe Six or seven US dollars per trick to the sex tourists.
Dont get me wrong i REALLY HATE ALL THOSE DIGUSTIN WHITE OVERWEIGHT POT BELLY, BALDING WHITE ASIAPHLIE MUTHAFUCERS i saw walking around an into those places( they were speaking pidgim english to the women on the street" you like sex? you good tits""how much for fuck?' "american, im american") but i mean the thai men/pimps were also hustling those women as well.and the japanese tourist seemed just as sleazy as well( not AS vulger but they were still there)

How can people expect whites to respect our own asian people when asians in asia dont show that respect ? treat the women like meat, then the whites tourist just come and take whats on offer.

I felt disgusted as well after i saw those places especially all those asiaphiles and those poor women who fuck them for a living but i dont know what i can do to change it. i mean the whole country allows this to happen , so what could i practically do? it makes the whole situation seem helpless,

overseas born asians trying to reduce white racism against asians while in the meantime whitey goes back and fucks all the women in asia for around 6 dollars per woman(while thinking geisha girl, me so horny bullsht).

It just reinforces the stereotypes(that whites have of asian women) that overseas born asians are trying to fight against.

Is there a Practical way to fight against this?,

[nightshade]

^Did your mother drop you on your head when you were a baby?

[JadeDragon]

Phoenix, please read all the posts in the thread before writing your reply. You sound terribly ignorant. Stop embarrassing yourself.

[CJF]

Westerners say that Burma should become a "democracy" and open up to the west.

I say look at Thailand.

I'm not surprised there is an Islamic revolution in Thailand.

[VeryAngry]

But what do you know about the trouble in South Thailand?

I don't know much about it either. I can't trust the news, and the personal anecdotes I've heard aren't that trustworthy. I have talked to a young man with family there though. Things could actually be more fucked up than you suspect.

[kimtae]

Westerners say that Burma should become a "democracy" and open up to the west.

I say look at Thailand.

I'm not surprised there is an Islamic revolution in Thailand.
Are you suggesting that the Burmese Junta is doing anything good? Are you suggesting the Islamic rebels in Thailand are because of Thailand being open to the West? You need to go back to geo-poli sci 101.

[CJF]

Are you suggesting that the Burmese Junta is doing anything good? Are you suggesting the Islamic rebels in Thailand are because of Thailand being open to the West? You need to go back to geo-poli sci 101.

I'm suggesting that Thailand would be better off as an Islamic state like Malaysia or Indonesia than a 'democracy' with white English teachers coming in and screwing girls in exchange for money.

Thailand has no pride right now. I'm hoping they have an uprising over this garbage.

[Scowl]

I'm suggesting that Thailand would be better off as an Islamic state like Malaysia or Indonesia than a 'democracy' with white English teachers coming in and screwing girls in exchange for money.

I don't think that being an Islamic state would be a good idea when most of the population is devoutly Buddhist.

Thailand has no pride right now. I'm hoping they have an uprising over this garbage.

An uprising over what? The sex trade? You make it sound like the entire country is the red light district. It's like NYC having an uprising over the hookers at Times Square.

[JadeDragon]

I'm suggesting that Thailand would be better off as an Islamic state like Malaysia or Indonesia than a 'democracy' with white English teachers coming in and screwing girls in exchange for money.

Thailand has no pride right now. I'm hoping they have an uprising over this garbage.

Dude, have you ever been to Malaysia or Indonesia? Have you seen what the governments are like there? Do you know how Islamisation can corrupt the line between state and religion?

[jaehwan]

I'm suggesting that Thailand would be better off as an Islamic state like Malaysia or Indonesia than a 'democracy' with white English teachers coming in and screwing girls in exchange for money.

Thailand has no pride right now. I'm hoping they have an uprising over this garbage.

Seriously, if you'd lived in Malaysia or Indonesia, especially if you were an ethnic Chinese minority or a non-Muslim, I think you'd feel differently.

[evil_FUX]

Dude, have you ever been to Malaysia or Indonesia? Have you seen what the governments are like there? Do you know how Islamisation can corrupt the line between state and religion?

Word. <10 char limit>

[kimtae]

I'm suggesting that Thailand would be better off as an Islamic state like Malaysia or Indonesia than a 'democracy' with white English teachers coming in and screwing girls in exchange for money.

Thailand has no pride right now. I'm hoping they have an uprising over this garbage.
Though it's been pointed out, why would Thailand be better off as an Islamic state when it's a predominantly Buddhist country? And your point was more to the idea that Thailand's Muslims are in revolt because of its being open to the West. Don't try to twist out of it. 'Splain to me how this statement is true. I know why the Thai south is in a state of low simmering revolt. Do you?
As for Indonesia It's not really an Islamic paradise. Do you know how much pain that country has been through? The revolts and dictatorships? Do the names Sukarno and Suharto ring any belss? But the pain isn';t all inte distant past. Ever heard of Aceh? Timor? Muslims hacking xtians and Hindus with machetes? Ask an ethnic Chinese from there about all the troubles that they've faced over the years. They're always the first ones to get looted, lynched and blamed. Look up Papua separatism.
And every Aussie knows that Bali is a sex tourism haven, but it wasn't the sex tourism that casued the Bali bombings, no, it was a statement against the Iraq war. You can still fuck all the girls you want in Bali and Jakarta. http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1464/bali-sex-tourism/
Malaysia is also not exactly a model Islamic country. It's an autocratic secular government run by a Muslim majority but in a very pluralistic society including Chinese (Taoists, Buddhists, Xtians, etc), Indians (Hindu and Muslim), ethnic Malay (mostly Muslim but also Hindu, Buddhist, and Xtian), some English (mostly Xtian), some Philippino (mostly Catholic), some Thai (mostly Buddhist). In fact Muslims make up only 60% of the population. Hardly the Islamic country you had in mind, but rather an ethnically and religiously diverse Muslim majority country with a somewhat restrictive political system that actively works to keep Islamic fundamentalism from gaining a foothold.
Now get back to your homework on Thailand.

[JadeDragon]

The latest news in Malaysia was ethnic Indians staging a protest against the unfair treatment against them by the government and bumiputeras.

Malaysian Indian protests open new racial faultline

By Sarah Stewart

KUALA LUMPUR, Nov 26, 2007 (AFP) - Unprecedented street protests by ethnic Indians have opened up a new faultline in Malaysia's tense race relations, posing a major problem for the government as it faces elections, analysts said Monday.
Political observers in the multicultural nation, where minority Indians and ethnic Chinese live alongside the dominant Malay Muslim community, said the ugly scenes at Sunday's rally represented a new era of racial activism.
"It is quite clear we will have an emboldened community willing to fight for their rights. It's almost a renaissance or a rebirth," said leading commentator Charles Santiago.
"The young Indian population out there especially see discrimination on a daily basis ...For a lot of them, they feel they have nothing to lose."
At least 8,000 protesters including women and young people massed near Kuala Lumpur's iconic Petronas Towers -- meeting stiff resistance from police who beat them with batons and unleashed gas and chemical-laced water.
The rally was officially in support of a multi-trillion dollar lawsuit accusing former colonial ruler Britain of being at the root of Indians' economic problems by bringing their ancestors here as indentured labourers in the 1800s.
But it was more squarely aimed at the ruling United Malays National Organisation (UMNO), which stands for Malay interests and has ruled the nation since independence a half-century ago.
While Malays control the political scene and the Chinese population is dominant in business, Indians complain they run a distant third in terms of wealth, education and opportunities.
Analysts said that although they had long been a silent minority, many ethnic Indians have become radicalised by the increasing "Islamisation" of Malaysia, which minorities see as undermining their rights.
The destruction of hundreds of Hindu temples in recent years, sometimes with bulldozers moving in even as devotees were praying, has also caused intense anger.
"The Indians have become alienated and that has basically transformed the nature of resistance," said political analyst P. Ramasamy, noting that ethnic Indian professionals were well represented at the protest.
"The character of struggle has changed. It has taken on a Hindu form -- Hinduism versus Islam. And this is something that should not have taken place in a multi-racial society."
Ramasamy said he was certain there would be more protests, raising the spectre of serious racial violence -- not seen since 1969 and something all sides on Malaysia's political scene are desperate to avoid.
The protests, which come shortly after another mass rally calling for election reforms, are a major headache for the government, which had been expected to call elections early next year.
UMNO rules in a coalition with race-based parties including the Malaysian Indian Congress (MIC), which has been under fire for its handling of the crisis.
"I think it's very clear the MIC cannot speak on behalf of the Indian community any more," Ramasamy said. "Elections are around the corner and whether their majority will be reduced we will see."
Ordinary Malaysian Indians interviewed Monday defended the protests saying they were forced onto the streets by a government which had ignored their grievances for decades.
"I think its a stepping stone for a better future, although change may not come overnight," communications executive Thavamalar Muniandy told AFP in the capital's ethnic Indian Brickfields district.
"In my opinion the protest achieved its objective -- we got the world to focus on us and the government can no longer ignore our concerns," said 24-year-old law student Sivamalar Ganapathy.
A retiree who gave his name as Subramanian said that since the 1960s conflict, which pitted Chinese against Malays fearful of marginalisation, the nation had focused too much on elevating majority Muslims.
"Sadly, we were often neglected in the process of development and side-tracked," he said.
"I'm sad to see that even after 50 years of independence we have to resort to such measures to express our dissatisfaction in a civilised country."

[VeryAngry]

The latest news in Malaysia was ethnic Indians staging a protest against the unfair treatment against them by the government and bumiputeras.

As of writing, the organisers of the protest have been charged under the Sedition Act.

UMNO asked it's youth wing to "show restraint" at the "provocation". I.e, don't form mobs to rape and kill people in front of their families in their homes.

[VeryAngry]

Regarding Islamisation as a means of instilling national pride, I wonder what else I will soon hear.

Achieving unity through fascism?

[VeryAngry]

Regarding Sarah Stewart, YET another stupid foreign bitch is spreading the illusion about Chinese dominance in businesses. Who controls the land? Who issues the permits? Who awards the contracts and tenders? Who receives kickbacks? Who uses a select bunch of Chinese stooges to launder money and deposit them in overseas accounts?

Malaysia is also not exactly a model Islamic country. It's an autocratic secular government run by a Muslim majority but in a very pluralistic society including Chinese (Taoists, Buddhists, Xtians, etc), Indians (Hindu and Muslim), ethnic Malay (mostly Muslim but also Hindu, Buddhist, and Xtian), some English (mostly Xtian), some Philippino (mostly Catholic), some Thai (mostly Buddhist). In fact Muslims make up only 60% of the population. Hardly the Islamic country you had in mind, but rather an ethnically and religiously diverse Muslim majority country with a somewhat restrictive political system that actively works to keep Islamic fundamentalism from gaining a foothold.
Now get back to your homework on Thailand.

Not really. Because of political and social suppression, society is becoming more and more homogenous. The leadership is fascist first and Islamic second.

[JadeDragon]

Charges dropped, actually. I work for the press. Don't play play. ;)

Malaysia drops sedition charges against activists

By Romen Bose

KUALA LUMPUR, Nov 26, 2007 (AFP) - Ethnic Indian activists claimed victory Monday as sedition charges against them were dropped, a day after they mounted an anti-discrimination protest broken up with tear gas and water cannons.
About 1,000 supporters carried the three freed activists out of the courthouse on their shoulders before a tense standoff with security forces outside a Hindu temple where they went to give thanks.
"We are seeking justice for the Indian community and today's verdict shows that we have made a small step in the correct direction," said P. Waythamoorthy, chairman of the Hindraf rights group, which organised the
demonstration.
"It is a victory for the Indian community in Malaysia, but there is still a lot more work to do," he said, after the court ruled the charges must be dropped because prosecutors failed to provide transcripts of speeches.
The impromptu rally dispersed on police orders, but on Sunday there were ugly scenes near Kuala Lumpur's iconic Petronas Twin Towers, as about 8,000 people clashed with police, whom witnesses said used their batons to beat protesters.
Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi defended the response to the protest -- a rare event in Malaysia -- saying it could have turned violent if police had not intervened.
"Don't abuse the freedom that has been given to you," he said, adding that the rally and another mass demonstration held earlier this month calling for electoral reforms had tested the government's patience.
The three Hindraf members had faced three years in jail for speeches
earlier this month in which they criticised preferential treatment for majority
Muslim Malays.
Hindraf said the speeches touched on freedom of religion and inequality for ethnic Indians, who make up eight percent of the population, against Malay Muslims at 60 percent and ethnic Chinese at 26 percent.
The Chinese population is dominant in business while Malays control the
ruling party, the United Malays National Organisation. Indians complain they
run a distant third in skills, wealth and education.
Sunday's protest was held to support a lawsuit that accuses former colonial ruler Britain of being at the origin of their economic problems.
The lawsuit seeks four trillion dollars in compensation for the estimated
two million ethnic Indians whose ancestors were brought to Malaysia as
indentured labourers by Britain in the 1800s -- two million dollars each.
Campaigners want to present a petition to Queen Elizabeth II in London and are asking Britain to appoint a lawyer to represent them in their case, which they hope will highlight alleged discrimination by the Malaysian government.
Analysts said the unprecedented street protests by ethnic Indians have opened up a new faultline in race relations that are already tense, and presented the government with a major problem as it faces elections tipped for early 2008.
"It is quite clear we will have an emboldened community willing to fight for their rights. It's almost a renaissance or a rebirth," said political commentator Charles Santiago.
Malaysian Indians interviewed Monday defended the protests, saying they were forced onto the streets by a government that had ignored their grievances for decades.
"I think its a stepping stone for a better future, although change may not come overnight," communications executive Thavamalar Muniandy told AFP in the city's ethnic Indian Brickfields district.
"In my opinion the protest achieved its objective. We got the world to focus on us and the government can no longer ignore our concerns," said 24-year-old law student Sivamalar Ganapathy.

Not really. Because of political and social suppression, society is becoming more and more homogenous. The leadership is fascist first and Islamic second.

I would agree with Kimtae, though. Malaysia does not have a society that is becoming homogenous. There may be suppression of a religious sort, but you cannot compare it to the type found in fundamentalist Muslim countries. The government does not have fascist intentions; rather, it sees that control is slipping out of its hands and that's why it is reinforcing its Muslim-majority rule. Malay-centric nationalism has been around ever since Merdeka and Singapore's independence, and comes in waves depending on the political atmosphere in South-east Asia.

[VeryAngry]

That's a pleasant surprise! I did suspect something amiss when their bail was set at a ridiculously low amount, but my fatalism didn't compel me to follow events closely. :)

I would agree with Kimtae, actually. Malaysia does not have a society that is becoming homogenous. There may be suppression of a religious sort, but you cannot compare it to the sort found in fundamentalist Muslim countries. The government does not have fascist intentions; rather, it sees that control is slipping out of its hands and that's why it is reinforcing its Muslim-majority rule. Malay-centric nationalism has been around ever since Merdeka and Singapore's independence, and comes in waves depending on the political atmosphere in South-east Asia.

Well, the suppression of the religious sort pales in comparison with that in the political, social and media arenas, and even the religious suppression is motivated more by ideas regarding a national identity than it is about religion. I don't know if the government has fascist intentions or not, but I do feel that it is fascist in form. Regarding the homogeneity now, it most certainly isn't. I'm just not optimistic about the future.

[VeryAngry]

From a blogger:

Awang Selamat is the pseudonym of a popular pundit who has a small column on the Malay language daily, Utusan Malaysia. Of course, pundit is a very relative term here as one can arguably deduce that Awang Selamat doesn't generally comment on what people are actually thinking but rather drums the beat in which certain groups would want people to dance to.

Recently, the column has published a few pieces (see here and here) that would have subjected the publication to calls for suspension and banning (not that either options are acceptable) for stirring up ethnic and religious tensions and possibly constituting a threat to public safety if it were published in any other publication apart from Utusan Malaysia and maybe Berita Harian.

Hindraf ProtestAs some of us are aware, certain sections of the Malaysian Indian community have been much more vocal in voicing their frustration on the lot of the community; especially after being part of an independent nation for half a century (or slightly more than four decades in the case of our compatriots from Borneo). I must say that while I am already uncomfortable with the twin approach of appealing to both ethno-nationalism among the community and the influence of the ethno-nationalistic Umno to solve the community's problem, I am even more disturbed by the response; whether its the open one by Samy Vellu in dismissing the concerns or the veiled one by proxies such as the columnist mentioned above:

.. Tindakan HINDRAF hanya akan mengundang gelombang kemarahan masyarakat bumiputera yang sudah begitu banyak beralah untuk kaum minoriti atas nama kontrak sosial ..

.. Ingatan Awang, jangan sampai orang Melayu hilang sabar dan akhirnya memudaratkan semua pihak ..

.. HINDRAF's actions will only invite a wave of anger from the bumiputera community which has compromised so much for minority races in the name of the social contract ..

.. Awang's reminder; do not let the Malays lose their patience and finally do something that everyone will be sorry ..

I do agree with Awang that there still exists an extremely large number of Malay and "bumiputera" communities that are extremely poor (not quoted above). I, however, disagree strongly with both Awang and Hindraf that the only way to solve this is by continued support for the Barisan Nasional coalition and pressuring the same coalition to give some concessions.

It has been primarily under the five decade long administration of this same coalition that has seen the severe mismanagement of the distribution of the country's economy. The slow and subtle erosion of accountability and the civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights of the peoples of Malaysia under this same administration has seen monies allocated to the alleviation of poverty and the provision of essential services and infrastructure squandered by the privileged few in true egalitarian fashion (ie. without distinction to race or creed, as long as you belong the the privileged "class").

By voicing their displeasure through a mono-ethnic coalition like Hindraf would only play into the hands of those who; by virtue of their virtual monopoly of the mass media; find it very easy to dismiss and divert attention to such systemic problems that are one of the primary causes of the erosion of the rights of Malaysians (whether they be of Indian descent or otherwise) by playing to emotive ethno-centric issues as has been clearly displayed by the recent Awang Selamat columns.

I would speculate to say that Hindraf has inadvertantly made itself an accomplice to the continued smokescreen and systematic misinformation campaign that seeks to distract Malaysians from the root causes of our ethnic, economic, cultural, social and political problems.

What we need is; to borrow a term; a New Deal that redefines what it means to be a nation and what we ought to do to re-divert our nation building process back to its original course. A replacement to the irredeemably abused NEP with a needs based affirmative action policy that respects both the need to re-orient our aid towards those who qualify by virtue of their economic and social needs rather than ethnicity and yet continue to sharpen the competitive edge of our macro-economy and help foster the development of a broad based yet viable and stable middle class.

Malaysia is fast losing her competitiveness and uniqueness in the region as the flow of information continues to be de-monopolised and our neighbours continue to provide a better balance in terms of economic and human capital development policies and also civil and political development. Once the floundering vessel MV Malaysia starts sinking, it will take down all hands, irregardless of our ethic or creedal constructs, except for the privileged few who have made their stake on the life rafts built by the sweat and blood of everyone else..


http://www.bobjots.org/2007/08/umnos_veiled_threats_hindrafs.php

.. Awang's reminder; do not let the Malays lose their patience and finally do something that everyone will be sorry ..

Like mass rape and murder? I guess whitey isn't the only one that can be called ignant crackas.
This is like serious KKK shit here. Just substitute the color white with brown.

[VeryAngry]

More blogger jottings, in case you're interested:
(http://www.bangkit.net/2007/05/21/hindraf-al-jazeera-live-interview-samy-vellu-challenged-to-reveal-list-of-100-over/)

It doesn't surprise me whatsoever. UMNO has worked very hard at re-writing the contributions of other races and religions out of history or at the very minimum, trivialising them. A hundred and twenty year old temple, all gone just like that! Imagine!

[lingyai]

After reading all 6 pages I would like to humbly share my opinion and reply to some of what has been said:

In response to person who says that Thais brings what is happening in the red light district and the general image on themselves. It is complex. The women would be doing something different if they could, but they have a harsh choice, earn $140 a month working in a hard job where you can’t support your family that much, or earn that in a few days and more and possible find a man foreign or Thai (Thai ample business men have gfs on the sides) who will give you money each month. There could be some more crackdown on these places, but some (not all) those in power also take advantage of the situation and profit. There are plenty of “gentlemen clubs” that are not as obvious as the red light districts but is the same thing.

For the person who said it would be better if Thailand became a Muslim county, well I invite him to convert and walk the walk and adhere to that lifestyle. We will see if his tune stays the same.

A point to be made is most Thai girls and women are not prostitutes, yes amazing but true. Walk away from the 3 areas in Bangkok that are the famous places for red light activities (patpong, Nana, Soi Cowboy) and you will see all the women that are not. In fact most of Bangkok’s tourist areas have nothing to do with prostitution. It is a country of 63 million or so, if you minus the few hundred thousand that are involved in the sex trade, you have 30 million+ who are not.

As old white men for getting girls for $6, that is an exaggeration. Thailand isn’t Cambodia. The authorities do go after men who have relations with underage girls (under say 16, I am not saying that is great, but to say one can go there and get young girls is deluding themselves). A non Thai guy would be paying at minimum $40 and most likely $75 or more a time when all said and done. Many will spend a few hundred on there new “friend” over the course of a few days. (thus a woman from a poor rural area can earn more in a few days that a whole month of working a somewhere else)


As for the debate about Asian vs Asian American/Canadians and conservatism, I think it has to do a bit with urban vs not urban. In the urban areas of Thailand there are plenty of unmarried couples who cohabitate, but not in the non urban areas (of course there are exceptions to everything).

[jaehwan]

Thanks for your comments and observations, lingyai! Are you currently living in Asia?

[lingyai]

I lived in Thailand for about 3 years total (not in a row). I got back last spring after my latest time there which was just over a year.

I traveled to many places in Thailand and around SE Asia and did a reasonable amount of reading about the country and its politics. I would not call myself an expert but I would like to think that I am decently informed.

As with many political/cultural issues generally things are more complex than some people make them out to be. On closer inspection there are reasons for the way things are done or are the way they are. It doesn't mean they are right, but most issues are not black and white (like who uses and reasons for prostitution in Thailand) .

[jaehwan]

It's always cool to hear from someone who has overseas experiences. I'm reading a book on Kennedy right now and his reasoning behind the Peace Corps, and it's brilliant what overseas living can do for a person's worldview. You can learn so much through overseas living.

Welcome to the 44's.

[DONKEY]

I thought the Peace Corps was a CIA front designed to counter the work of Comintern. Kennedy thought that the communists were winning (or buying) too many friends in the developing world and was afraid that all peripheral states (read: sources of raw material) would turn against the u.s.? or did i get the story wrong?