PUA for AMs

[Dialectic]

I don't have time in the immediate future to finish a lot of the Features I've started (I think I have about 5 of varying lengths saved), so I wanted to write a quick note here on my thoughts on the APB PUA phenomenon.

I actually agree that APB sounds like he's pretty full of himself, might have intimacy issues, and comes across as "tacky" or even maybe scummy to certain people. The thing is, I view his position like this: he's basically performing a therapeutic service for social losers, and he's espousing an Orange moral view in his practice.

Ultimately, I totally agree that one should have meaningful relationships and treat people as humans and not objects, but I think supporting him is acceptable here, because (1) guys who have almost no chance of getting sex and love on their own need objective techniques and a certain "manly" or "macho" objectifying perspective (at least when they start putting themselves out there) which we might find silly or offensive, and (2) the integral moral imperative tells us that each level of the spiral is important and ought to be able to conduct its own affairs as long as it doesn't go around trying to destroy the others. I think my support of him is justifiable on those two grounds, especially in a political environment where Green is going around trying to dismantle every Blue and Orange thing in sight which doesn't conform to their worldcentric sensitive compassionate views and basically wrecking the spiral.

[JadeDragon]

Aw, you're really just a softie at heart, D. You feel for the "social losers". ;)

[maogirl]

put in that way, i agree that APB does serve his function in society. i mean, cockroaches are important to the ecological balance, too, right?

wait, are they?

personally speaking, though, while i recognize that the conquest mentality may be an innate part of the male psyche, it still makes me feel like shit to think that a guy would look at me and just see a pussy on legs that they can brag about hitting. it's dehumanizing.

this probably explains why i'll die a virgin, i know.

[Dialectic]

I understand; PUA stuff is certainly not what we'd call "morally ideal."

About the dehumanizing/objectifying point, I see it like this:

1. The PUA worldview objectifies women and men alike, in terms of seeing other men as competitors and taking advantage of their psycho-social "weaknesses" or vulnerability to manipulation, albeit on a lesser scale because men are not the object. In this sense, there is at least some "equality" in treatment there.

2. The PUA accepts being objectified himself. He doesn't mind being objectified by women and other men, because he accepts the existence of "the game," the rules of that game, and the way people are treated in that game. So there is also "equality" in treatment here.

Overall, this mass objectification and dehumanization of, well, everybody is not morally ideal, but that doesn't make it totally wrong, and as mg so eloquently agreed above, there is something of a social function here. (And again, in integral terms, this is an example of a mind inhabiting the Orange moral/cognitive space.)

On a related note, I want to make a couple quick points about Xian's latest piece. I didn't want to say this in the comments section as it wouldn't have all the forum discussion context, and it was such a pretty and open piece I didn't want to come across as slamming it right underneath.

I think there are some inadequacies in his approach, despite his best intentions.

First, he acknowledges that he had a pretty "normal" high school adolescent experience, and then bases his advice on his experiences and subsequent maturation. This, in my opinion, precludes him from being able to give effective advice on the topic because he had a normal adolescent development where he asked people out, partied, danced, puked, and spent time with women in notable platonic relationships.

The social outcasts I'm thinking of, of which there are many of the Asian male variety (and anyone who thinks that the model minority is just a myth or stereotype without basis in reality is a brainwashed postmodern idiot), did not have that at all. They didn't ask people out, they didn't party and dance and puke, and they didn't spend time with women at all in any sort of relationship. This already puts Xian ahead of this particular curve, and already gives him a foundation from which to mature and develop normally and healthily. Xian may have been a geek, but he wasn't nearly at the geek level of the guys I'm thinking of, and some of the guys who would need APB.

(Incidentally, I'm only partially writing this from experience, as I wasn't quite as bad as the theoretical guys I describe above, but I knew and know of plenty of guys who were, and I could have been, had it not been, quite frankly, for some happy accidents: ripping up my shoulder and working out, being more physically attractive than average, and somehow meeting girls who liked comics. Right now, for example, I have an AM buddy who is a super-nice guy, hard worker, sweet and considerate, slightly overweight, and is around 24, and I don't think he's spent 10 minutes in personal conversation with a woman who wasn't his sister, much less touched one. There's a lot of guys like him around.)

Xian's cosmetic advice seems all right, but then he gives advice on being nice and caring. As I say above, this will definitely definitely NOT work for everyone. This may work if you're already fairly normal, if you are already capable of interacting normally with men and women, if you're willing to play the long game, and if you're willing to end up permanently friends with legions of girls while they tell you about all their romantic shenanigans. Ask ZG about these last two points if you want to know how badly that can go.

Xian then describes his sexual, moral, and social maturation. As far as I can tell, he developed like a normal human being in this liberal Western environment, with all its ups and downs and adventures and realizations. There are many, many people who don't, and who won't ever be able to, because of adverse interior and exterior conditions set down over the first couple decades of their lives. Something has gone wrong with their development, they are "stunted" in one or two lines, like the sexual and the social, which has distorted their development in other lines, and they have, in all likelihood, created repression barriers in their psyches to deal with feelings of fear, rejection, lack of fulfillment, inadequacy, and lust. They are, in the classic sense of the word, losers. And they are fucked-up. They may not be fucked-up in clinical terms (though some undoubtedly are), but they are fucked-up.

Fucked-up people need treatment.

I view what APB offers as a form of psychosocial intervention, an informal type of therapy which addresses sexual and social repression and needs. It may not do this in an ideal moral fashion, but if the ideal moral fashion is the advice Xian offers, it wouldn't work anyway. (His advice may have worked for the 40 year-old virgin, but he was a movie character, he was 40, and his whole life was filled with hilariously improbable situations. For more on where being nice and empathetic and super-friendly without skill generally gets you, Google "Ladder theory.")

(I also, incidentally, view the formation of Asian community groups as informal psychosocial intervention, but that's a discussion for another day.)

Overall, and this may be a simplification but I think it's accurate, Xian advocates for making yourself a better, more confident person, which requires years of moral, sexual, and social development from a stable and healthy childhood base. He basically says to mature and be better, and everything will work out. This is true, but it's unhelpful when you're desperate, lonely, horny, socially maladjusted, and afraid.

[Dialectic]

Hm, might modify this and put this on the frontpage. Haven't decided yet.

[howstrange]

is it moral orange? or is it really moral red. The idea of sexual conquest. Heavy focus on the ego and serving it's base desires, lower chakra. Like Napoleon out to conquer the world of women. The equality in treatment you see, may just be the Red "truth" that everyone is out for themselves, so Red will equally be out for itself. He may be on a cognitive orange level though, understanding the game, the science involved.. the Darwinian and physiological understanding of male to female interaction on a base level.
.

[maogirl]

D, out of curiosity, what would you consider an alternative to this whole PUA shit for guys that would be (for lack of a better term) morally "correct" and developmentally more balanced/beneficial?

and this is a total redirection, but lately i was just thinking how important it is for both sexes to be properly socialized with girls while growing up, not just boys.

i notice that the chicks i know who have a hard time relating to other chicks are usually more insecure and have lower self-esteem. some were too pretty too soon and became more comfortable with boys who paid them attention and it seemed to have stunted their social skills in the sense that they cannot develop friendships with other chicks, and to a certain degree, they're also unable to relate to guys in terms of true platonic friendships. it just seems so fucking sad, 'cause a chick without female friends must be so lonely.

[Ike]

it just seems so fucking sad, 'cause a chick without female friends must be so lonely.

Why do you say that?

[nightshade]

Why do you say that?

It's like being Asian American and not having any Asian American friends.

[evil_FUX]

is it moral orange? or is it really moral red. The idea of sexual conquest. Heavy focus on the ego and serving it's base desires, lower chakra. Like Napoleon out to conquer the world of women. The equality in treatment you see, may just be the Red "truth" that everyone is out for themselves, so Red will equally be out for itself. He may be on a cognitive orange level though, understanding the game, the science involved.. the Darwinian and physiological understanding of male to female interaction on a base level.
.
Nicely put howstrange, I was musing over something like this last night as well, except on a much broader scope.

[AsianPlayboy]

Some points or ground rules in order to clarify certain things about what I do.
Being a PICK UP ARTIST versus being a MAN WHO'S CONFIDENT WITH WOMEN are two SEPARATE things. Although one may- like tributaries to a river- lead to the same thing.
I do NOT encourage my clients and students to follow the same road I'm on.
The VAST majority of my students simply want the ABILITY to CHOOSE who they date and eventually marry.
I encourage, after two years, that they DROP the Game. Mission accomplished. Time to move on.
I RARELY lie (unless the job demands it, ie covering my client's ass) and neither do I encourage nor discourage my students to do so. Embellish, sure, but out and out lie (how much you make, your job, etc)? Not as a policy.
Caveat to the above, I DO NOT TEACH ETHICS.
I teach a skillset and it's up to each individual man to decide what he wants. I do NOT decide FOR him.
Racially, I do not care either way what the students prefer be she Asian or whatever.
It is, however, a matter of convenience to go to social venues that are populated with an abundance of females- which invariably includes a target rich environment of white women.
I do NOT insult women (unless she's being racist) although I do tease.
I do NOT buy women drinks in order for her to talk to me (though I may buy a round once the interaction is solid).
I DO bitchslap my students if they cannot MAN UP and conquer their fears.
I practice SAFE SEX and encourage my students to do so.
I do NOT consider sexualized women to be SLUTS.
I believe we are ALL sluts at heart and place no moral imperative on it.
I make it CLEAR that I won't be EXCLUSIVE nor do I even HINT at marriage. There are no delusions or false promises on that front.
WOMEN play the GAME every day of their lives. They've simply internalized it as socially acceptable in it's various forms.

[Dialectic]

is it moral orange? or is it really moral red. The idea of sexual conquest. Heavy focus on the ego and serving it's base desires, lower chakra. Like Napoleon out to conquer the world of women. The equality in treatment you see, may just be the Red "truth" that everyone is out for themselves, so Red will equally be out for itself. He may be on a cognitive orange level though, understanding the game, the science involved.. the Darwinian and physiological understanding of male to female interaction on a base level.
.

I considered this, and you might be right, but I don't think it's a Red thing because Red morality is very brute and very tribal. It has a strong, very localized, anarchistic power drive. Comparing the PUA's morality to that of a tribesman or gang member doesn't mesh to me.

Also, recall that all levels have strong power drives: the empires and peoples who have done the most blatant historical damage to the world were Blue, Orange capitalists and amoral rationalists love attaining power through analysis and efficient execution, and even Green, sensitive and caring Green, shouts down and even mocks those it deems to be less sensitive than it.

Remember that Orange hyper-capitalists used to (and some still do) subscribe to the notion of enlightened self-interest making everyone better. Recall also that both Red and Orange are very individualistic (vs. Blue and Green, hence the warm and cool alternating color scheme). I don't see APB, or the PUA practitioners in general, really not giving a shit about anyone other than themselves in a tribal way, because they care enough to build a community and help out fellow males in need, usually regardless of ethnic, class, or national origin.

Also, they are moral enough to know that what they are espousing is general amoral: they give you the tools, you make the ethical choices. This would not even be relevant to Red, which doesn't yet really understand anything beyond the ethics of take what you can when you can and fuck the rest, which is not really what the PUAs are espousing, though they may sound that way sometimes in a way to make people "man up."

Perhaps you're right, though, in saying that the actual sexual drive itself springs up from beige/purple/red, or the lower chakras (1st? 2nd? You may be more familiar with that stuff than me); I think, though, that just because someone is driven by an instinct from the lower chakras, it doesn't automatically put their moral centre there. In the same way that I can really want sex or food or social validation, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm Purple or Red or Blue.

Finally, in APB's post above, I think you see a strong orange outlook there. There is that sense of social responsibility, the deliberate non-judgment of the ethics of sexual promiscuity, and the position that one can give tools for an objective without judging or advocating for the way those tools are used.

[Dialectic]

D, out of curiosity, what would you consider an alternative to this whole PUA shit for guys that would be (for lack of a better term) morally "correct" and developmentally more balanced/beneficial?

and this is a total redirection, but lately i was just thinking how important it is for both sexes to be properly socialized with girls while growing up, not just boys.

i notice that the chicks i know who have a hard time relating to other chicks are usually more insecure and have lower self-esteem. some were too pretty too soon and became more comfortable with boys who paid them attention and it seemed to have stunted their social skills in the sense that they cannot develop friendships with other chicks, and to a certain degree, they're also unable to relate to guys in terms of true platonic friendships. it just seems so fucking sad, 'cause a chick without female friends must be so lonely.

I haven't given this a lot of thought, but I would say, briefly, that an "alternative" would be to do the PUA shit and follow the guidelines set out by APB above, but WITH an ethical component, or at least, a more ethical and caring attitude from the teacher.

A certain level of objectification is necessary for the whole thing to work, not just for PUA, but for mating rituals in general, and I agree with APB that females have internalized the "game" such that their forms of objectification are socially-acceptable, when they objectify just as much (remember, the body's not the only thing that can be objectified: we can objectify not only social and financial status, but also the mind, something most people don't realize). Given that objectification occurs, with a shift in attitude which, in addition to wanting to date/ sleep with a woman, to also care somewhat for her growth and well-being (it's possible to care for someone and still want to maximize your chances of banging him/her, as we all know, and most people would want to leave even a one-night stand with fond memories rather than the opposite, if given the choice), we get over the amorality and cold manipulative nature people are so concerned about.

We all "manipulate" in one form or other; many of our reactions and social behaviors have some "manipulative" component, some gesture or action intended to induce hopefully favorable reactions; it's the attitude or "goodness" with which we approach these interactions which define how good or bad they are.

So really, you can still do all the PUA shit, like mirroring or negative hits or focusing on interests or questions or compliments or jokes or whatever, which natural non-formal PUA guys do all the time, but if you approach it in good faith, with lightheartedness, and with care (and most of the good PUAs have the first two in abundance anyway), then the whole thing really is a fun game that doesn't have to have that cynical manipulative element, which is what dating and picking up is supposed to be about in the first place.

[kwak76]

I don't see anything wrong with the PUA for AM. Approaching women is a skill in it's own that allot of men regardless of race don't have. I do agree that sometimes the PUA community focuses too much on scoring or just laying the girl instead of developing real relationship. However, everything has a start.
In order to have a relationship somebody has to approach someone to start the process.

Just like Dialectic mentioned it PUA 101 is just teaching the basic to guys in how to say or approach a women. It's kind of like learning how to go on a job interview. What to wear ? What to say ? and even how to say it? There are some guys that don't have this skill set regardless of race or back ground.

I think what makes Asian men unique is the cultural and racial elements. PUA is a western construct. I don't think the male female dynamics are the same in Asia as it is in the west when it comes to meeting girls. I think in the West an Asian guy is handicapp if he thinks too Eastern in his approach in getting girls. What may work in Asia may not work in the west.

And of course there is something called "inner game". If anything this is probably one of the biggest problems with Asian men. Inner game is just self-confidence or social confidence . A belief that your the prize and I know this is my weakness.

The PUA community stresses that you shouldn't feel sorry for yourself. Too be honest I read some of the articles in www.fastseduction.com. It made me believe in myself. I actually practice some of the stuff they preach and it does work. I'm no PUA or DJ but I try to apply the 3 sec rule and approach a girl and say anything. I get allot of rejection but I don't take it personally because at least I'm trying. PUA stresses that rejection is normal and it's growing pain.

If anything what I learned from PUA is that failure is OK as long as you get up and keep going the next day. Maybe some people think that the PUA promises too much. That an ugly guy could get a hot girl. Well, this is what I think.

If an ugly guy really believes he can get a hot girl and reads PUA bible and approaches girls everyday and keeps trying. He may land a hot girl. Let say he doesn't but at least his trying. To me that 's some success.

[VeryAngry]

It was amusing to read Xian's article "Thoughts from a non-playa".

It provided a lot of high-faluting ideals, but was typically very sparse on the details of implementation.

The "PUA" movement has improved much from where it was a mere two years ago. We have had thousands of Asian men challenge themselves, improve themselves, and get to where they want to be... Each of these successful Asian brothers succeeding through the grace of willpower, determination, and self-rediscovery... Each of these successful Asian brothers finally achieving their goals and dreams and putting old demons to rest, free to finally stay where they are in utter comfort and satisfaction, or move on to climb higher peaks.

When talking about the "PUA" movement outsiders tend to want to lump us all into a single category, as if there are or ever traits to describe us all by. This is a fallacy. Men who want better in their love and sexual lives come from all walks of life. Is it possible to categorise the breadth of humanity with a single label?

The weaknesses described in part by Dialectic and Xian will not be overcome by writing articles and seeking common agreement. Those weaknesses in the methods will only be overcome by men on the ground reaching out to their Asian brothers, showing them a better way by example, and more importantly, teaching them how to harness and nurture their ability and self-worth.

By being on the ground and you - not - APB fulfils his role in this better than you do.

[VeryAngry]

Kwak!!!! Nice to see that you've put more effort into this. I always felt that you deserved a lot better, and I'm glad that you've taken steps to get what you truly deserve. :)

Just a couple of notes:

I don't see anything wrong with the PUA for AM. Approaching women is a skill in it's own that allot of men regardless of race don't have. I do agree that sometimes the PUA community focuses too much on scoring or just laying the girl instead of developing real relationship. However, everything has a start.
In order to have a relationship somebody has to approach someone to start the process.

The irony is that "approaching" a woman is simply just a social ability.
The PUA community focuses on "scoring" or "laying" the girl simply because many men do not know how to portray themselves in a sexually attractive and desirable manner.
Being one of those sexually compliant and submissive men happy to take whatever is given to them is not an option for us.
When we see an attractive woman it's only natural to want to be as desirable to her as she is to us.

I've some funny observations I've made in the four years I've been involved in this, and will share them with y'all next time.

Just like Dialectic mentioned it PUA 101 is just teaching the basic to guys in how to say or approach a women. It's kind of like learning how to go on a job interview. What to wear ? What to say ? and even how to say it? There are some guys that don't have this skill set regardless of race or back ground.

And just like a job interview, success starts even before you talk to your employer for your first time. It isn't just about the skills. It's also who you are as a person. Understanding this is VITAL.

I think what makes Asian men unique is the cultural and racial elements. PUA is a western construct. I don't think the male female dynamics are the same in Asia as it is in the west when it comes to meeting girls. I think in the West an Asian guy is handicapp if he thinks too Eastern in his approach in getting girls. What may work in Asia may not work in the west.

You have to understand that "Eastern" mores regarding sexuality are often no better. In many parts of Asia, prostitute-fucking and being pussy-whipped is endemic. I can get into the cultural factors also, but that will also have to wait for another time.

And of course there is something called "inner game". If anything this is probably one of the biggest problems with Asian men. Inner game is just self-confidence or social confidence . A belief that your the prize and I know this is my weakness.

How about inner game also being about removing poison from your soul? What a lot of "ordinary" people haven't realised is that a lack of social ability or self-confidence may not just be a "lack" in the first place, or god forbid - the inherent nature of the said individual - but could very possibly be a condition caused by severe and negative lifelong experiences. The poison can be of a very insidious nature.

The PUA community stresses that you shouldn't feel sorry for yourself. Too be honest I read some of the articles in www.fastseduction.com. It made me believe in myself. I actually practice some of the stuff they preach and it does work. I'm no PUA or DJ but I try to apply the 3 sec rule and approach a girl and say anything. I get allot of rejection but I don't take it personally because at least I'm trying. PUA stresses that rejection is normal and it's growing pain.

This is great!! When you stop feeling sorry for yourself and put yourself out there, you expose yourself to a whole new world of pain. You acknowledge to yourself that your desire to do better is stronger than that part of you that is happy to surrender to fate. You say that you have strength in you left to fight. The world awaits you, but for those too timid to step up to the challenge, they have only dreams, fantasies and the doom of the grave to meet them.

The thing about going out there and making all those approaches is that if FORCES you to confront yourself, and it FORCES you to learn and change. I can guarantee that you will learn a lot about human nature - and your own - from all those interactions you do. In time you will look back on your experiences as an important and integral part of becoming a better man - however you wish to define that.

If anything what I learned from PUA is that failure is OK as long as you get up and keep going the next day. Maybe some people think that the PUA promises too much. That an ugly guy could get a hot girl. Well, this is what I think.

If an ugly guy really believes he can get a hot girl and reads PUA bible and approaches girls everyday and keeps trying. He may land a hot girl. Let say he doesn't but at least his trying. To me that's some success.

Not "may" land a hot girl, but WILL. In men, behavior has more significance than looks. Moreover, people always respect men and women alike who have the determination to acknowledge and reach their dreams, regardless of hardship.

[kwak76]

VeryAngry,

Not to say i disagree with you but at the same time I think I have a more realist view of the PUA. The only real criticism I have with the PUA is the over promise that they make. I blame it on the heavy marketing that some of these dating gurus do.

I see learning PUA as no different from let say studying Martial arts. Let me explain.

Let say you got into a street fight and lost. You hate getting beat up and want to learn how to defend yourself. So you enroll in a Mixed Martial Gym. You train hard for 6 months. The more you practice the better you get.

Next time you get into a fight your in a better position than before. You know how to defend yourself better but does it mean you will win every fight ? No, not at all.

In reality just because you training in mixed martial arts doen't mean you will be the next UFC champion or win every fight that you encounter but you will be in a better position because at least you know how to defend this time around.

It's the same with PUA. Just because you read the DJ Bible or took a bootcamp dose not guarantee that you will get every girl but you will be in a better position because you will know what to do.

To me PUA is just a skill. It's not moral it's not meant to be. It has no right or wrong in it. Just like Martial arts.(I know someone will disagree with me on this one.) I mean I could take a BJJ class and learn how to choke someone properly but it's up to me if I want to use it for good or bad purposes.

There are some Martial Art instructor who promises to teach you the secret way to kill someone and there probably are some dating gurus who promises to teach you some secret to get any girl you want. In reality it doesn't work like that.

Getting good at anything really is a combination of hard work ,natural talent and luck. PUA is just a social skill and nothing more.

[xian]

Viewed that way, I love the idea. When I was a teenager, my best friend and I used to play "game tapes" where we would go over every moment from parties we went to and try to figure out what we should have done or said. It was fun and built our skills. Build your skills!

My problem isn't with the idea that if you suck at something you should quit whining and trying to improve.

It's the way that "strategy" is framed in way-misogynist ideology that doesn't actually provide any long-term benefit that is what I don't think is good.

[VeryAngry]

Kwak, that's a very good, and important point you have there.

Xian, I get your point. This thing of ours is still evolving.

[kwak76]

It's the way that "strategy" is framed in way-misogynist ideology that doesn't actually provide any long-term benefit that is what I don't think is good.

Fair point. I'm no master in PUA nor do I know all the players in the PUA community. I imagine some of the PUA instructors do have a misogynist viewpoint and it is possible that the student that learn from the instructor may pick up on that.

However, from what I read from the PUA community for the most part it seems fair. A PUA looks at things at face value. They care more about results than the underlying meaning. In other words if I approach a girl and do step 1 and step 2 and don't get anywhere than I won't do those steps again. PUA is a result driven community. They don't discuss about morality or what is right or wrong.

There goal is to get a girl to like you . Once a girl likes you it's up to the guy to do what he wants. That's when you could say morality may play a part.

I think people get confuse by picking up a girl vs. having a long term relationship . In order to get a long term relationship you have to get the girl first. PUA for the most part key in picking up girls.

I really believe if a guy is good at approaching women and dates allot of women he would be a better guy because he feels he has OPTIONS. A happy person tends to make a better partner in a relationship. So, I really think in a back handed way PUA do encourage a better long term relationship.

In all honesty the PUA is a community of guys that come together and trade tactics in getting girls. It may seem sexist but I don't find it to be. I see it as a community trying to improve their chances.

For the guys that tried to approach girls know what I'm talking about. I been rejected so many times it's not even funny. At least in the beginning woman have the power to accept you or not.

In essence how a could a women reject me when she doesn't even really know me. She is rejecting me because I approach her badly or it could be any number of reason.

Approaching is a tactic to improve your odds in getting the girl interested in you enough so she could discover who you are. PUA is all about that and I see nothing wrong with that.

[VeryAngry]

Ever heard of this guy named "Juggler"? Unlike other instructors from a year or two ago who told you to say this and do that, and to approach twenty sets a night and to spit out scripts and stories and do things like a robot, this guy says that you have to start with the correct vibe. He emphasises warmth and real human empathy, genuine interest in what makes another person unique, and how to relate to them, and them to you. Not only that, but he strongly emphasises the ability to read the other person, be it her current focus and pre-occupations, as well as her feelings and values, and he also teaches methods and ways of leading her to where you want the interaction to go. He says not to make sex the goal like a lot of other PUAs do, because that's missing the point that if you're attractive to each other, you WILL have sex.

If I may, here is a link: http://www.charismaarts.com/

The "PUA" movement has moved VERY far within that short timespan of two years. At the very minimum we have become a lot more holistic.

[Candide]

Women discuss and trade (their own version of) PU tactics all the time in their peer group and in every communication medium. Nobody says anything about it and it's considered socially acceptable. As soon as men do the same, they get accused of all sorts of things. What's with the double standard?

[VeryAngry]

My 2 cents but it seems that a lot of the double standards that arise from everywhere come from a couple of things. First there's this great fear or sense of threat regarding a man's actual ability to sleep with many women, as if there will automatically be some act of abuse on his part. Secondly this idea that men who haven't yet achieved the level of success they have with women yet are at some level deficient or lacking and should know their place.

Does not sound very moral to me.

[Ike]

There are far fewer women charging others for courses on how to attract men.

[Candide]

There are far fewer women charging others for courses on how to attract men.

Are you sure about that? You reckon those books, magazines, TV shows and fashion industry don't cost much?

[VeryAngry]

There are far fewer women charging others for courses on how to attract men.

Well, considering how what little I know in this matter has been taught to me out of goodwill, if I ever have anything of substance to teach the price I demand will not be monetary. That's my personal stance.

I have a question though. How does charging money automatically make things bad? I have thought about this, but I would like to hear your opinions on this.

[nottyboy]

There are far fewer women charging others for courses on how to attract men.

Off the top of my h ead, I know that the writers of "The Rules", Ellen and Sherry, had their own seminars. I'm sure there are others.

[little mixed girl]

i learn pua from this guy:
http://www.becomingapua.com/2007/09/06/having-sex-with-a-16-year-old/

i don't know if i could say that women trade "pua techniques", but whatever.

[VeryAngry]

Oh my god....what a champion (sarcasm). Sixteen years old!

You can't expect every PUA in the world to be morally upstanding you know. A lot of them are douches.

[kwak76]

I don't think women trade PUA skills or anything but I think women are just better at this than men are. I don't care what people say but from what I seen and experience it still expected for the guy to start the conversation or approach the girl first. I mean it still expected for a man to do this.

So let say a girl been hit on since the age of 18 years( let's keep it legal). She get's hit on by all types of guys. After awhile she learns to filter the guys out by playing games like giving out fake number or making up stories.

Probably most of these guys that were approaching her found her attractive and wanted to go out with her. The girl was not interested and had to learn to play games. Some girls are more blunt and tell guys off. In any case this girl has more experience in dealing with the opposite sex in varying degree.

You get a 18 year guy. He approaches a girl and gets shot down. He feels like a loser and doesn't ask a girl out for long long time.
I met allot of guys who gaved up becasue they got rejected too much .

I also met allot of girls who have OPTIONS. Since the girls I know get approach allot they pick and choose what guy they want to go out with. I mean nothing wrong with that but sometimes the girls end playing with the guys.

I knew this one Korean girl who had 3 boyfriends. Playing with them trying to get the best catch. How moral is that?

I 'm not saying guys should do the same but I think APB mentioned it before. Women play the game without even knowing they are playing the game.

In an ideal world it shouldn't be this complicated but it is.

What people have to understand is that the PUA is not the be all and end all for everything.

Just because I study the PUA I still will have to go through loops , shit test and rejection. What the PUA does give a guy is some hope that if he better this skill he MAY just may meet someone. NO promises because I am realist.

I could use myself for example. I'm a realist. I know that Asian men in Ameirca DO have a DATING disadvantage. We could argue about the degree of it but it does exist. I'm not tall nor do I think I'm all that good looking. I do have a job and work hard but I'm not rich so in other words I'm no Mr.Asian America either.

I been trying to improve myself in every area in life. Work, health, family ect..same goes for social circles. I been reading the PUA not to take advantage of woman but to get LESS rejection from women.

In the past I just did the direact approach. I see a girl I maybe in interested in go up to her and say "I think your cute or whatever"..I get rejected .

One time I approach close to 20 women within a 2-3 week period and only got 3 fake numbers out of it. I'm like shit I really suck at this. It makes a man feel insecure about himself. I like to see a woman go through what I went through and she how she feels.

Some of you saying why am I trying so hard because I learned early in life that nothing is given to you. I can't wait for something to happen like a girl to fall on my lap. You have to pick yourself up and go out and get it. This applies to everything in life.

Anyway, I moved on. Reading some of the PUA allowed me to accpet my rejection because I realize I'm not the only one. It's hard to explain because I'm still trying to figure all this out. Some of you may assume maybe something is wrong with Kwak for getting allot of rejection. Well, unless you met me you can't say much.

I know it may sound pathetic but for some guys reading PUA material is just a blue print to social interaction that some guys don't NATURAL have. For some of these guys this blue print is a glimmer of hope.

The thing that sucks is that women may look down at you if your not natural good at approaching or talking to women. Like what's wrong with you and if you do read the PUA material women will look down at you further for being a social loser who has to use that.

It's kind like Social Darwinism in effect here. Even the female posters here look down at guys who use PUA material and assume he must be a sexist and a social loser when in reality he may just be a nice guy who lacks the natural talent to attract girls.

[VeryAngry]

Careful Kwak, if you get emotional about this Jaehwan may send you to some kind of Boy Scouts Survivor-island type camp, rofl!

You know what, if you're ever headed down to Asia sometime, send me an email.

I can guarantee you that you won't be treated like a freak or sub-human.

[DONKEY]

maybe the reason guys are getting shot down when they approach is because some women just don't like being approached by strangers, period.
maybe the idea of a random approach itself is creepy and any woman with half a brain already knows what the guy is up to before a word even comes out of his mouth.
maybe approaching strangers is not actually a normal way for heterosexuals to meet mates except in meat markets, on TV, and in pornos.

male friends who complain the most about not having any luck with girls are the same ones who never come to parties when i invite them, never want to tear away from their video games for just one night a week, never let me introduce them to anybody. it's not a coincidence. they also make a huge mistake of just throwing people away. if they meet a girl that they're not interested in, they just ignore her and forget about her. what they don't know is that the most reliable way to meet new women is through other women. you would think that with all the online social networking sites these days they would figure it out. instead they just forget about her and the next time they see her can't remember her name, don't talk to her etc.. then she puts in a bad word for him to other women. these guys are the same ones who i notice consume porno. not a coincidence.

there are some women who enjoy random male attention and it's easy to figure out where to find them. but approaching women at their places of work is a shitty move. a girl stuck behind a counter in a shop can't walk away from your awkward advances if her boss requires her to stand there and serve customers. if you do this then you're no better than the shitheads who come in to take out their frustrations by being rude to random store clerks.

social networking.. it's the same for getting jobs, getting good deals on stuff, getting information first, connections and social networking are key. people have understood this for thousands of years. the only difference is that now in the west, family connections are not so important for meeting mates. the friend network has taken up that role. if your friend network sucks then yeah, you are going to have to count on pick-ups and sheer luck with meeting women.

[kwak76]

Given a choice I would prefer to use a social network since it is easier and safer. As you get older people around you either get married and the girls they know are already married and also as you get older your network changes.

Granted you have to make new networks but to do that you have to do cold approaches to meet new people. Plus being an Asian male who prefers Asian female the network is not that great to develop with or much of a choices out there.

I could always go back to Korean church to network which allot of Koreans do but I prefer not to.

I sometimes still go to Asian parties and approach group of people. It's more hit than misses really. The New York Asian crowd is pretty cliques.

Allot of the other Asian guys I know are single but the difference is that I'm the only one that actually goes out and do approaches. They gaved up.

People may think cold approaches suck but one thing is for sure . If you do them you learn a skill that allot of people don't have. Most people think going up to random people is something you don't do. Why should you limit how you inter-act with people?


Sure there are some girls that don't like cold approaches just like there are some girls that don't like to go to social functions.

As a man you try not to think about these things and just do what you have to do. End of the day it's the end result that matters not how you get there.

[Ike]

Pickup for men is focused on personality and charisma.
For women, it is a lot more about physical appearance.
Because men are the ones who "hunt" for women, and women sit back and "choose" which suitor they prefer.

As a society enamored with ourselves for achieving (gender) equality, we should start looking at the dating scene and having second thoughts.

[VeryAngry]

maybe the reason guys are getting shot down when they approach is because some women just don't like being approached by strangers, period.
maybe the idea of a random approach itself is creepy and any woman with half a brain already knows what the guy is up to before a word even comes out of his mouth.
maybe approaching strangers is not actually a normal way for heterosexuals to meet mates except in meat markets, on TV, and in pornos.

Hey bro, if we ever meet up, it'd be my pleasure to prove you wrong and show you how it is done. :)

[RebelAzn]

maybe the reason guys are getting shot down when they approach is because some women just don't like being approached by strangers, period.

Dude no offense but just about all the women I dated I approached them as a stranger. Not sure about set ups cause no one really knows your taste except for you. Most men will know if they are attract to a girl within the first 10 secs of meeting a woman. Approaching women is just a habit you develop and you just do it. PUA teaches you the basic skill but you need to practice it. How you use the skill is entirely up to each individual. Anything is better than sitting around bitching.

Kwak might have good success rate, but at least he is trying. I personally had pretty good success rate when I was dating. Women in general are much better at social interactions than most men. The reason is women get hit on so good looking ones have plenty of experience accepting/rejecting various suitors. Most men need help. Asian men especially grow up with no real role models and they don't have big brothers or fathers that teach them how to date in America. Therefore, most Asian men don't develop those skills. Guys like APB can teach those skills. Like anything else, it takes a lot of practice.

Also, people that tell you women don't care about looks are lying. Women do. If you are not tall, good looking and success, then you just have to try harder. Instead asking 5 girls out, ask 50. I am sure some will say yes.

[little mixed girl]

maybe the reason guys are getting shot down when they approach is because some women just don't like being approached by strangers, period.
maybe the idea of a random approach itself is creepy and any woman with half a brain already knows what the guy is up to before a word even comes out of his mouth.
maybe approaching strangers is not actually a normal way for heterosexuals to meet mates except in meat markets, on TV, and in pornos.


i agree with what you said. just made the quote smaller to save space.

a guy with a dorky smile walking towards me...it usually means that he's got some line that he wants to try.

and at my former job at the library, there wasn't anywhere i could "run away" to. i was at work, and those guys knew it.

following girls around isn't the best way to get her attention either...if anyone was into that...

[kwak76]

Getting back to D's thread is PUA good for Asian guys? Given a choice I prefer Asian men doing something and it could be cold approaches than doing nothing.

Some people may not like the PUA . That's fine. Some don't like cold approaches . That's fine too. However, what can a Asian guy who lacks the connection or know how do to get a girl?

What's more important is how to make a Asian guy who lacks the social skill improve his social inter-action with women. The first step is just approaching women in random settings. If a guy get's good at cold approaches the skills he learn he could do this anywhere.

Given a choice I prefer to see Asian men do something than nothing.

[Candide]

Do people assume that those taking dance lessons are the ones who can't dance and have absolutely no rhythm?

[blockthebox]

No, I think people just assume that they're GAY.

[AsianPlayboy]

From the main page, but I think I need to state this up front in order for the hypocritical, so called, "paper" tiger, political activists to understand me...

/ "jaehwan

I think you need to become more empathetic. Read your own words. You’ve got little respect for the people you’re trying to be empathetic with, and it’s clear you look down on them. And xian’s right–you don’t teach empathy with women."/

You are absolute 100% RIGHT.

I DO NOT teach EMPATHY.

I do not hand hold.

I do not hug them.

I do not cry with them.

I do not tell them it'll be 'ALL RIGHT' if they bitch out.

I DO NOT TEACH FUCKING FAIRY TALES OR DELUDE THEM WITH FALSE ILLUSIONS THAT BOWING BEFORE THE WHITE MAN IS ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE DEEP DOWN INSIDE THEY'RE SPECIAL LITTLE FUCKING SNOWFLAKES AND SANTA CLAUS IS FOR REAL.

I am reality based. And results oriented.

Period.

Occasionally, an Asian Man has an EPIPHANY THAT IN ORDER TO BE CONFIDENT WITH WOMEN, HE NEEDS TO TRANSFORM HIMSELF INTO A BETTER MAN.

But that's a bonus. A side effect of improving his skills and expanding his awareness and acceptance of both his strengths and weaknesses.

Quote a few Asian boys trapped in a man's body have gone through a through Rite of Passage of Manhood during and as a RESULT of an APB Bootcamp...

But I don't sell that. I don't guarantee it. And I don't market it.

You either have to impress me enough that you got big enough balls to step up or you're nothing but a little bitch who still lives with mommy and daddy and the ONLY WAY TO FORCE HIM INTO MANHOOD...

Is to bitch slap the pussy out of him.

But that's a bonus.

Rest assured, I excel at disabusing pathetic self-lies out of themselves and forcing them to critically examine the reality they find themselves.

Again, you are ABSOLUTELY 100% FUCKING RIGHT.

I do NOT empathize with cowardly Asian boys trapped in a man's body.

I do NOT teach RELATIONSHIPS.

I do NOT teach ETHICS.

THE ASIAN PLAYBOY IS NOT YOUR MOMMY, YOUR FRIEND, OR YOUR MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR.

I am a coach, an instructor, and an unforgiving, unsympathetic drill sergeant.

If you guys want to teach "homoerotic mythopoetic manhood" ala touchy feely Dr. Phil, feel free to move into the forests for spiritual understanding with the universe.

I won't stand in your way.

I claim one thing and one thing only... I teach a skill.

And ONE skill only.

Which is HAMMERING- into Asian boys and men- the ability, confidence, and skill of Approaching and Picking Up women no matter their race, culture, or level of beauty....

And I'm damn fucking good at it.

Everything else...

Is a bonus.

But yes, Xian and Jaewan, you both are absolutely right about me.

[Dialectic]

It's interesting how people can be right about something but still not get it.

[VeryAngry]

Has anybody here actually even personally TRIED to help out or teach a guy in this matter? After the desire to do better, empathy and sincerity are not the most important things to have.

RESILIENCE is.

[VeryAngry]

So APB catches a lot of flak for his ways. What about other teachers of Pickup? Are they to be tarred with the same feathers as well?

http://www.captivatetoconnect.com/daytimepickup.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxelrLRXdK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKMxQlZGlBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY3DIO9-XSE (This third clip is great)

He makes sense, yes? He could help out a lot of our Asian bros here, yes?