In regards to kwak76's yokojohn post...

[Vahz]

I was reading Jenn Fang's Reappropriate blog and she issued a challange to people that don't believe the statistics that CN Le has put out regarding Asian American interracial dating. The biggest gripe is with his statistics are the they are simply incorrect.

It was claimed that the interracial dating patterns are far higher than Le claims. So, Jenn said we can run our own observations.

Simply put, the idea is to take 3 months of your time and write down how many of the following couples you see: AF/WM, AM/WF, and AF/AM. Obviously, the last pairing is going to be the largest.

So, if you're bored and want to add your findings, simply just track the numbers and report what you find on your daily travels.

[kwak76]

there is a quicker way to notice the difference and I think we all know about the stats .

I think this was posted in the now defunct Asianguy.com and i remeber posting this game on the 44's awhile ago.

Some people think the inter-racial disparity does not exist. You play a game by punching their arms(real hard). Every time you see AF/WM you punch the other person arm and if they see AM/WF they get to punch your arm.

I actually play this with my cousin from Korea. After 3 solid punches he said" no mas"..hehe he wanted to change it with me just by slapping his wrist with 2 of my fingers instead . He wanted to get back at me and we ended up walking almost to dawn to try to find a AM/WF. Let say on that night I did not get hit at all.

It's a stupid game but they get your point real quick. Only thing is don't play this game with girls.

[kalbi]

I have days where I see a steady trickle of AM/WF, and then a few AF/WM, and then a FLOOD of AM/AF. To be honest most of the AF/WM I see are couples who are 25+ years of age - they're getting less and less popular amongst the younger crowd (I think the "subversive, cool" factor of AF/WM is completely gone - its way too common and boring now), and the AF/WM who got together 3-5 years (and were thus so ubiquitous) are getting older now.

[Ike]

It's a stupid game but they get your point real quick. Only thing is don't play this game with girls.

Makes the game kind of worthless, doesn't it? The demographic that needs the most convincing seems to be AFs.

[Scowl]

Where's Seraph when you need him? Didn't he have all the numbers taken directly from the census? What's his site, again?

[theme]

I have days where I see a steady trickle of AM/WF, and then a few AF/WM, and then a FLOOD of AM/AF. To be honest most of the AF/WM I see are couples who are 25+ years of age - they're getting less and less popular amongst the younger crowd (I think the "subversive, cool" factor of AF/WM is completely gone - its way too common and boring now), and the AF/WM who got together 3-5 years (and were thus so ubiquitous) are getting older now.

That probably has something to do with population changes no? Less white males to go around for Asian women. From what I can see, the demand is as high as ever but the supply just isn't there.

[theme]

I was reading Jenn Fang's Reappropriate blog and she issued a challange to people that don't believe the statistics that CN Le has put out regarding Asian American interracial dating. The biggest gripe is with his statistics are the they are simply incorrect.

It was claimed that the interracial dating patterns are far higher than Le claims. So, Jenn said we can run our own observations.

Simply put, the idea is to take 3 months of your time and write down how many of the following couples you see: AF/WM, AM/WF, and AF/AM. Obviously, the last pairing is going to be the largest.

So, if you're bored and want to add your findings, simply just track the numbers and report what you find on your daily travels.

That stats were taken for married couples. So WM/AF couples who aren't married weren't accounted for and since I believe that they make up a large bulk of IRs out there it stands to reason that physical observations are not congruent with the statistics.

It's the only explanation I can think of. I don't believe that AF/WM hover 'only' around 40%. It's gotta much much higher than that.

[nightshade]

It's a stupid game but they get your point real quick. Only thing is don't play this game with girls.

I'd so play this game...heh, I didn't spend seven years working on my punch for nothing. Wouldn't it be better if it was more like, "Yellow punch buggy, no returns!" But I guess the punching isn't the point of the game. Oh well.

[howstrange]

It's the only explanation I can think of. I don't believe that AF/WM hover 'only' around 40%. It's gotta much much higher than that.


or that more AF get married than AM, by a large margin, hence while the IR percentages are the same, you will see more AF/WM couples than AM/WF due to sheer numbers.

[tkguy]

I was reading Jenn Fang's Reappropriate blog

I will not visit her sites or read her posts. She made a post about how the foot binding of colonial day china is the fault of aa men today and promoted this notion across all the feminist blogs. She refuse to see am as human beings. Maybe she changed and learn from her ways since then, but still her stuff is probably chock full of indoctrination. I can't believe how many times jenn and her site have been mentioned here.

[nightshade]

I will not visit her sites or read her posts. She made a post about how the foot binding of colonial day china is the fault of aa men today and promoted this notion across all the feminist blogs. She refuse to see am as human beings. Maybe she changed and learn from her ways since then, but still her stuff is probably chock full of indoctrination. I can't believe how many times jenn and her site have been mentioned here.

I think we're all indoctrinated in some sort of political thought.

I was curious about this blog, so I found her post about footbinding and current relations between AF and AM (http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=411).

She doesn't say anything is the fault of AM. She's calling out a specific type of guy who is down on all AF/WM pairings, but promotes AM/WF pairings. (She's really into Maxine Hong Kingston...but that is another topic for another day.) And she's right. It is troubling that for some guys, AF that date out are CCBs, but AM who date out are playas and pimps.

I think she's examining a specific thing that she finds troubling, but by no means is she trying to dehumanize all AM. In fact, I think she's trying to point out that in our current situation, this problem has arisen because of the issues that we're all facing. We're in this together, etc.

She writes:


Though it would be easy to point the fingers at the small group of marginalized DACs in our community as the root of our Bound Feet and Namelessness, it is imperative to remember that, in the practice of foot-binding, it was mothers and grandmothers who bound the feet of their daughters, not fathers or brothers.

And at the end of her post she writes:

Perhaps we, Asian American Woman, can finally take heart and, once more, find our Names; it seems most of the Asian American Men are, indeed, listening.

I may not agree with everything that she's written, but I don't see her post as an attack on all AM, but rather an examination a certain way of thinking that fucks us all up.

[theme]

^^There's actually more to it than that. Anyone interested in the discussion should form their own POVs and follow the link and read the comments afterwards as well. I think it shows the rift between genders in the Asian American community and I don't trust when an AA woman tries to defend another AA woman that she has objectivity in mind when doing so.

If you follow the comments you can see that once again, proven for all of time, that Asian women and non-Asian men support whatever rhetoric Asian women women put out there, irrespective of how it affects Asian men, and Asian men are again forced to fend for themselves. The gender divide is clearly present.

[theme]

And at the end of her post she writes:

Though it would be easy to point the fingers at the small group of marginalized DACs in our community as the root of our Bound Feet and Namelessness, it is imperative to remember that, in the practice of foot-binding, it was mothers and grandmothers who bound the feet of their daughters, not fathers or brothers.

I may not agree with everything that she's written, but I don't see her post as an attack on all AM, but rather an examination a certain way of thinking that fucks us all up.

Ah yes, the obligatory disclaimer that is suppose to equalize the disparaging remarks made through 3/4s of a rant. It's funny how many times people can get away with that stuff. That's akin to disseminating negative imagery of Asian men for several decades and try to play catch up in a couple of films in the 21st century. It all balances it out doesn't it.

[nightshade]

^^There's actually more to it than that. Anyone interested in the discussion should form their own POVs and follow the link and read the comments afterwards as well. I think it shows the rift between genders in the Asian American community and I don't trust when an AA woman tries to defend another AA woman that she has objectivity in mind when doing so.

If you follow the comments you can see that once again, proven for all of time, that Asian women and non-Asian men support whatever rhetoric Asian women women put out there, irrespective of how it affects Asian men, and Asian men are again forced to fend for themselves. The gender divide is clearly present.

Yes, for sure read the whole thing. (I didn't read the comments...so that might prove to be a rather interesting bit.)

I'm not for bashing AM--this is the sort of fucked up bullshit that we've been left to deal with and we should really be focusing our anger elsewhere. That's one of the bullshit elements of second-wave feminism--the bashing.

But I do have a problem with referring to any AF seen with a WM as a CCB. It's messed up. Yes, it's a problem--I see sad AFs throwing themselves at WMs and putting down AMs and it pisses me off. What is the solution? I have no idea, but I know the best thing is not to degrade my fellow AFs and AMs.

[theme]

Yes. But you can see where tk's accusations of 'indoctrination' comes from. She claims that footbinding existed in Asia 'well into the 20th century'. First of all, the practice was outlawed in 1911-not exactly what I would consider 'well into' the century. Not only this, but anti-foot binding sentiments had surfaced before the turn of the century so the practice itself was already on the decline.

The exaggeration would be forgivable had she not also misrepresented footbinding as an 'Asian' thing. I'm Vietnamese and I had never heard of footbinding in Vietnam before. I would assume it's the same for other parts of Asia as well. The fact that she put all of Asia under this oversimplified, over exhaggerated claim, and wrap it up neatly as a testament to Asian male oppression over Asian women is one of the supreme reasons that I don't take Asian women like her-And there are PLENTY of them-too seriously. She needs to be careful in how she interprets facts because there are many non-Asians, particularly NON-Asian men, who would like to use her interpretations against Asian males-As evidenced by the kind of people who read her posts.

[DONKEY]

ive never once met any person who was in favor of footbinding. i mean it's 2007. even the oldest and most old-fashioned Chinese people ive met were not into footbinding. this is silly. somebody who writes about this as if its a current problem should be exposed as a fake.

[kwak76]

theme makes a solid point.

nightshade,

I agree calling an asian women who date out a CCB is consider a low blow. I admit sometimes I use it but I'm trying to break the habit and use yokojohn instead. I think that with some Asian women that date out do it for innocent reasons where as some do it for malice reason.

In any case I think we have to hold the same standard. If an Asian men date out but we consider him a champion but look down when an asian women date than it is messed up. However, because there is a inter-racial disparity seeing an Asian men with non-Asian women is weclome change.

[nightshade]

Yes. But you can see where tk's accusations of 'indoctrination' comes from. She claims that footbinding existed in Asia 'well into the 20th century'. First of all, the practice was outlawed in 1911-not exactly what I would consider 'well into' the century. Not only this, but anti-foot binding sentiments had surfaced before the turn of the century so the practice itself was already on the decline.

The exaggeration would be forgivable had she not also misrepresented footbinding as an 'Asian' thing. I'm Vietnamese and I had never heard of footbinding in Vietnam before. I would assume it's the same for other parts of Asia as well. The fact that she put all of Asia under this oversimplified, over exhaggerated claim, and wrap it up neatly as a testament to Asian male oppression over Asian women is one of the supreme reasons that I don't take Asian women like her-And there are PLENTY of them-too seriously. She needs to be careful in how she interprets facts because there are many non-Asians, particularly NON-Asian men, who would like to use her interpretations against Asian males-As evidenced by the kind of people who read her posts.

I believe this is where the Maxine Hong Kingston influence comes in (http://www.dartmouth.edu/~hist32/History/S08%20-%20Maxine%20Hong%20Kingston%20-%20Frank%20Chin%20Debate.htm)...heh.


I agree calling an asian women who date out a CCB is consider a low blow. I admit sometimes I use it but I'm trying to break the habit and use yokojohn instead. I think that with some Asian women that date out do it for innocent reasons where as some do it for malice reason.


Not using CCB is the main thing I think because what I think most of us are against when it comes to certain AF attitudes is internalized racism and unjustified AM bashing, rather than some kind of sleazy tabloid examination of who an AF choses to sleep with or love. The term CCB adds an unneccessary misogynist slant to a legitimate concern.

[Dialectic]

Ah ... echoes of General Tojo. He used to count ALL THE TIME. Every evening I was with him he'd be counting. I think he may have made up the punch game, too. Ah, Tojo.

[Vahz]

See, I'm not sure why Jenn doesn't understand two points:

1.) While it is possible for an Asian woman to date/marry a white man and still stick up for Asian men, I don't understand why she can't see why these women would be viewed as hypocrites.

It reminds me of the whole Al Gore issue when people are saying he's a hypocrite and how his whole "save earth" agenda has less bite because he was snacking on an endangered species. Also, there was an educator in California who lost a lot of credibility when he we teaches anti-gang education but showed up at a Halloween party wearing gangsta garb and started flashing gang signs. On a personal level, I found an Audi dealer to be less sincere about his praise for the car when he drives a Lexus.

2.) While basing one's idea of masculinity on whether or not women find a particular man attractive is incorrect, she fails to see how this would affect a man's self esteem.

What exactly is feminism and what does it stand for? I'm just wondering because there were many men I've talked to who said they completely supported gender equality and opportunity but will not support feminism at all.

[kwak76]

I think feminist does not even understand what feminism is. feminism was started to get gender equality but now became something else.

There are very few Asian women who will look at inter-racial disparity in a critical light. Usually the argument is that an Asian women should have any right to date who every she wants. Which is fine but
can't see how there is a layer of racist love in who you choose your partner and also how the disparity has a negative effect on Asian man.

Allot of just plain selfishness but I can't blame Asian women to think that way because they benefit from this racist love. If the shoes were the other way around with Asian men picking and choosing I think Asian men would more or less have the same view point that Jenn has

Just today I was watching Korean TV show and they were showing a Korean woman who is married to a white guy and her family. My reaction to it is that Korea came pretty far because in the past they wouldn't really show this type of relationship but at the same time kind of sad because once the cat is out of the box you can't go back. (I personally think there is a fair number of Korean women in Korea who wishes to have Mr. White guy)

I remeber I had a conversation with a young Korean guy about inter-racial dating and how it hurts Asian men. He said it just competition and nothing wrong with that. Which I said it is fine but I can't help think that's this competiton is rigged and we are not playing fair.

[atlasien]

Jenn Fang is a genius. She also has the patience of a saint. She will actually hold discussions with anti-feminists on her blog, which is something I'm not interested in doing.

I believe there are two attitudes a person can hold in regards to this issue, man or woman.

1. "I don't care whatever benefit accrues to myself, OR what harm and insults I receive, I'm still going to support Asian-American issues for men AND women. I care about Asian-American men being made invisible, I care about the high suicide rates of AA women, I care about raising our self-esteem. I'm in it for the long haul."

2. "Because group __ doesn't act in a way I like, screw that, I'm taking my toys and going home."

I have no respect for people who hold a group 2 attitude. They are a bunch of whiny babies.

[Dialectic]

Just read her thoughts. Don't entirely agree, especially since she seems to be setting up one or two strawmen, particularly by bringing out the whole Asian male ownership argument, which I actually find offensive.

*sigh*

I may actually have to write a response, which I know will be useless and end in tears ....

[Ike]

I may actually have to write a response, which I know will be useless and end in tears ....

Yours or hers?

[jaehwan]

I'm actually posting on that board right now. I remember Seoulbrotherno1 going there and schooling Jen on her Unbound Feet post. I almost felt bad for her because she had to rely on "But Maxine Hong Kingston said...but Maxine Hong Kingston said..."

I like Jen for what she does, and I think she sometimes has interesting posts. The problem is that she's somewhat caught in a Maxine Hong Kingston 70's mindset where Asian men are the big, bad enemies of all humanity. (Thankfully, Jen has avoided the Kingstonian converse where white men are the rescuers.) To Jen's credit, she also actively engages in conversation, rather than the normal dirty Kingstonian hissy-tactic of just calling everyone a sexist and then storming out of the room.

I do think that her views are changing somewhat through the dialogue, so D, I do think posting on her blog can be worthwhile.

[Dialectic]

I'd been meaning to do this for a bit, but was hesitant, but now with all the crazy stuff out there, I decided to use that Reappropriate blog as a springboard for my own thoughts.

Presenting the newest FEATURE (once every five months ain't bad!), D's thoughts on IR.

http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2007/07/18/inter-racial-dating-by-asian-americans/

I have RUINED my morning's productivity for all of you.

If you read it and like it, maybe let the Reappropriate person know about it. (I assume her name is Jenn Fang 'cause someone mentioned it above, but I didn't bother confirming it, which I suppose I should have.) There is a 95% probability I won't engage any more on the subject, mind you, but who knows, if there's a good response from anyone out there, or some grossly annoying misinterpretation of what I'm saying, maybe I will.

[nightshade]

Jenn Fang is a genius. She also has the patience of a saint. She will actually hold discussions with anti-feminists on her blog, which is something I'm not interested in doing.

I believe there are two attitudes a person can hold in regards to this issue, man or woman.

1. "I don't care whatever benefit accrues to myself, OR what harm and insults I receive, I'm still going to support Asian-American issues for men AND women. I care about Asian-American men being made invisible, I care about the high suicide rates of AA women, I care about raising our self-esteem. I'm in it for the long haul."

2. "Because group __ doesn't act in a way I like, screw that, I'm taking my toys and going home."

I have no respect for people who hold a group 2 attitude. They are a bunch of whiny babies.

Being in it for the long haul is exactly it. That's what we're all here for.

As for questions as to what feminism is...well, the most simple explanation I can come up with is women are people. And we'd like to be treated like people, rather than as objects.

I'm not for the whole gender equality argument, because, for me, feminism is not about equality. I suppose I'm kind of third wave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism), which is in many ways in opposition to second-wave feminism (which is the legacy we've been left to deal with, and which is so outdated and 1970s, just like the Maxine Hong Kingston model of being Asian American).

Then again, many second-wave feminists hate third wavers...and it mostly has to do with differing attitudes towards prostitution and pornography. The third wave is considered by some to be anti-feminist. But really, it's anti-essentialist.

Anyhow, didn't mean to derail the thread.

[Dialectic]

Yours or hers?

Clearly mine! The world disappoints me again and again :P

[JadeDragon]

As for questions as to what feminism is...well, the most simple explanation I can come up with is women are people. And we'd like to be treated like people, rather than as objects.

I'm not for the whole gender equality argument, because, for me, feminism is not about equality. I suppose I'm kind of third wave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism), which is in many ways in opposition to second-wave feminism (which is the legacy we've been left to deal with, and which is so outdated and 1970s, just like the Maxine Hong Kingston model of being Asian American).

Then again, many second-wave feminists hate third wavers...and it mostly has to do with differing attitudes towards prostitution and pornography. The third wave is considered by some to be anti-feminist. But really, it's anti-essentialist.

Anyhow, didn't mean to derail the thread.

Derailing the thread a little further, BECAUSE I CAN. Nyah.

I identify as a third-wave feminist myself, but with strong links to the second wave. They did pave the way for the third wave after all, especially with the production of seminal works by Betty Friedan, Naomi Wolf and Germaine Greer. Of course, their philosophies aren't supposed to be taken wholesale; they wrote exclusively for white middle- to upper-class women.

Anyway, in my opinion, third-wave is an extension of the second wave, except that it takes into account factors that second-wave feminists didn't focus on during their heyday in the 70s, such as race, cultural traditions and diverse sexualities. I actually don't see third-wave notions as opposites to second-wave ones; they're just built upon a platform of knowledge that's constantly evolving, and it's difficult to reconcile them with each other most of the time because the theory is seldom discussed outside classroom environments. So we'll get people like the late Andrea Dworkin being paraded around as a symbol of second-wave, which makes third-wavers uneasy, when a number of second-wavers are actually a little more sympathetic to third-wave issues. They're just not as visible. (I had great Gender Studies lecturers/tutors who were decidedly second-wave, but they totally encouraged me to write and discuss what I wanted, and they were willing to listen. But then again, classroom environment and all that...)

It's also really difficult to define third-wave beyond "feminism after the second wave" because of the complexity of ideas and issues it espouses. As such, I must respectfully disagree that third-wave is anti-essentialist. While it's true that third-wave seeks to break free of the "our bodies=our gender" discourse of the 1970s, it still requires a part of the essentialist structure. For example, in medicine, it is a given that women's biological/medical issues will not be the same as men's, by virtue of our physical differences. We have dissimilar rates of cancers, strokes, heart attacks and so on because of these material differences, and science has to take that into account when formulating treatments and medications. Just as there are pills and therapies that can respond differently to other genetic make-ups, there will be certain treatments that are considered to be more effective for women than men and vice versa.

And in sports, we have the WNBA and Women's Olympics games. These weren't designated because women aren't as good at sports (which isn't true by any means), but because they give athletic women a chance to excel in what they love without the sexism and discrimination that often takes place in conventional sports. They are tailored specifically for women, and without things like Title IX, then women wouldn't have as many opportunities to engage in these activities because they would be shut out of male-dominated arenas otherwise.

So, point being that while third-wave is very real and is something important for women everywhere, whether they agree with it or not, it's not a zero-sum game between third-wavers and second-wavers about who's right or wrong or not a "real" feminist. Each can learn from the other, and that's really what matters when fighting for a common cause.

(I have a bad cold, and I need to sleep so I hope this post wasn't incoherent. I apologise for rambling like a celebutard on coke.)

[Dialectic]

(Just to pipe in again, and now that atlasien hates me - reminiscent of the xian/ catty debates I had back in my hey day, I figure I have nothing to lose.)

With regard to the nightshade's anti-essentialist comment and JadeD's response, I think you're both on the same page. Certainly, third wavers break down essentialist notions such that gender is no longer auto-associated with (and limited by) body, and I also think most would agree that gender can't be completely dissociated from biological considerations. If anyone has this stance, it would be an "extreme" third waver, and we all know that extreme stances are crazy.

Thank you. Please, everyone, don't hate me.

[tkguy]

I am impressed with theme’s response.


Jenn is using asian feminism as a facade to hide behind. It helps her to direct others to deal with her how she want to be dealt with.

If I tried to confront a jenn type of person I will probably tell that person that it's apparent that every aspect of their life revolves around some issue they can't seem to get over.

[jaehwan]

D,

Atlasien hates me too, so you're in good company.

Great post on the main page.

Good comments on reappropriate too. It's funny because I used to read Oliver Wang's articles in AsianWeek. He seems like a nice guy, but he is taking a beating on Jenn's blog. He just seems to be out of touch with reality and history. Good thing I didn't go into academics...

By the way, the most commonsense post I've ever read with regards to this topic was something posted by Maogirl a while back where she was offering advice to someone looking to date white (I think it was Ike.). She said something along the lines of, "Yes, you're supporting the power structure, so just accept it, and then do it." If I weren't so lazy, I'd find it and repost it...

[jaehwan]

Okay, here it is:

http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4524&highlight=maogirl

[Ike]

For the record, he was (and still is, but I'm using "was" because we dated and then broke up) black.

[Vahz]

Just thought I'd share a story with you guys.

I caught up with some old high school buddies last week and we had an amusing discussion. My best friend in high school has a sister that every guy wanted to date and every girl wanted to be.

In high school, she was #1 in academics, was the cheerleading captain, was in all honors classes, was involved with community service, and was in almost every single school club. She eventually went to Harvard and then Columbia for her masters.

She was also absolutely gorgeous. I shit you not, she was model material. Suffice to say, she was the most popular girl in our high school.

When I was a freshman, upperclassmen would try to hang out with me because they hoped I could get them chatting privileges with her. They kept saying how I was so lucky to be the best friend of her brother. It was so bad I would get nasty questions like:

"Dude, did you ever try to sneak a look when she was taking a shower?"

"No way. She's fucked up. It's like looking at my sister naked if I had a sister."

While she was only 1 year older than us, she was like an older sister or even a mother to me.

Unfortunately for them, she would constantly reject their advances, not because she was mean, but because they weren't Asian though she preferred Korean. My high school was 55% Asian and it harbored some of the most hardcore and militant Asian girls and guys. Looking back, it makes me smile that you were either Asian or you weren't. If I recall, there were only 2 Asian girls going out with white guys in the entire school and they didn't last long. Other Asians never gave them any grief about it but it simply wasn't an option due to the massive amount of pride and feeling of Asian, dare I say it, supremacy. These Asian women and men weren't recent immigrants either but rather American born. Since they felt that they were the dominant ones and regarded themselves as the epitome of beauty, it was natural for them to gravitate towards someone that resembled them.

Now, I'm not stating that Asian women with non-Asian men aren't proud but rather when one has a feeling of cultural supremacy, the natural byproduct would be love for their own racial group first.

Fast forward to today, we were talking about random topics and the subject of women came up. My best friend reported that his sister got married a year ago which suddenly left the table in silence. Under the guise of innocent questions such as wedding costs, locations, and honeymoons, he asked my friend if the guy she married is an American born Korean or some fobby Korean.

He replied with "She's not married to a Korean." I was thinking to myself "Oh, god. There's going to be some hate brewing tonight."

Everyone was silent and wasn't brave enough to ask what was lingering on their minds. Hell, I didn't care. I saved them "face" by asking for them.

"Hahaha. Odd that J would marry a white guy since she was so uber-Korean when we were younger."

"No, dude, she married a Chinese guy. ABC. Same last name as you, in fact."

You almost felt like a hurricane force gale coming from the huge sigh of relief. One of them said:

"Least he's an Asian guy. I see more and more Korean girls dating Chinese guys."

Me: "Oh, god. What are you Korean guys going to do now? Be angry that Korean girls are starting to be privy to us Chinese guys? (Coincidentally, almost all the Asian girls that have given me attention and love have been Korean. Anyway, I digress.)

If CN Le's statistics are correct and it's true that pan-Asian marriages have experienced a huge jump at 9% and interracial dating for Asian women has dropped by a small 3%, I think the correlation between Asian American pride and self esteem is directly related to interracial marriage.

I also wanted to point out that when all the white guys in high school found out she was one of "those" girls, they acted all indigent as if they should have free and unfettered access to Asian women. Funny how you don't hear any complaints from them when anyone else is on the other side of the coin.

[Scowl]

^^ Got a pic of her? I know you got a high school yearbook lying around, somewhere.

[Vahz]

I never bought a yearbook until my senior year but by that time, she already left the high school and was in college. I'm in her Friendster circle but I'm not sharing that with all due respect. She's currently living in Cali and my friend is in Fort Bragg about to be deployed for a "short" tour. It's also funny as hell that she speaks English, Korean, and Chinese and so does her husband. It's like the uber-Asian American couple.

There is also an older brother. See, the thing is, she has two brothers, one older and another younger. She always felt protected by the older one and felt like a defacto protector of the younger one. I can't help but believe that the strong Asian male figures in her life also factored into her thinking.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that most of the Asian guys at the table were married or had steady girlfriends and they too were concerned about the interracial dating issue. So, you see, it has nothing to do with only "bitter Asian" men but rather the image of Asian women with white men that concerns the male community.

Many detractors state that it's only coming from a very small vocal section of Asian men but I believe that just because they're not talking about it doesn't mean that it doesn't concern them. I think they're just trying to save face and are afraid of looking like the whiny Asian guy.

[kwak76]

this thread has been derailed and never will get back on track.
Well, let's keep it that way.

In regards to Vhz last post and D's feature this reminded me of story I had with a friend of mine. He was working for a non-profit Asian activist organization and in the past he dated white girls but also wants to date an Asian woman. However, to him looks are important. In other words looks are more important than race. So I gave him a challenge.

Let say he walks into a club and there is a hot looking white girl and a plain looking Asian girl. Both girls wants him but you have to pick only one. Which will he pick? He told me that's a bullshit challenge and he wouldn't give me an answer. In reality the chances of this is not likely(a hot white girl wanting him) but the reason why I gave him this challenge is because I wanted to test where his heart is.

He works full time as an Asian activist(most Korean organziation) and knows about issues. He said he is down with Korean pride and wants to inspire the next generation to do more.

However, in his personal life when it came girls he cared more about looks than his politics. But with him he thinks more as a man and will settle for a attractive white woman if he can't find a hot looking Asian girl. If anything I told him if he gets attractive white woman his going to inspire a generation of Asian men in landing a white girl than about Asian solidarity and advancement.

How many times have I seen Asian men hoot and slap fives when they see a Asian guy land a hot white woman as if that suppose mean some huge advancement for the Asian cause. It doesn't .

[kwak76]

vhaz,

People in the past painted me as the "poster boy for the bitter Asian guy". Right now I have a girlfriend and I dated probably more girls this past year alone than previous years. All I did was raise my work rate and talk to as much girls as possible.

Regardless of that it still bothers me when I see yokojohn's. Not in a personal level but more for the community level. I try to share this with the girls i date but most of them don't get it. The girls i date see it as a personal choice but can't see how it could have a social impact.

[Vahz]

I was chatting with a friend who knows a British born Asian woman (East Asian, not Indian) and they state that there are many Asian women over there that date white men -but- the reason why is because the ratio over there is 5:1.

The first choice for Asian women over there is an Asian male and they'll fight each other for them which turns Asian guys over there into jerks because they know they can be picky.

[KHANartist]

I was reading Jenn Fang's Reappropriate blog and she issued a challange to people that don't believe the statistics that CN Le has put out regarding Asian American interracial dating. The biggest gripe is with his statistics are the they are simply incorrect.

It was claimed that the interracial dating patterns are far higher than Le claims. So, Jenn said we can run our own observations.

Simply put, the idea is to take 3 months of your time and write down how many of the following couples you see: AF/WM, AM/WF, and AF/AM. Obviously, the last pairing is going to be the largest.

So, if you're bored and want to add your findings, simply just track the numbers and report what you find on your daily travels.

I actually did that one time for one day only though. I saw quite a few East Asian females in IR relationships and by no means was it exclusively with white men. I saw several with black, Middle Eastern and Asian(South) men.

[Vahz]

I ran through it for about a week and 100% of them were with white men.

[KHANartist]

I ran through it for about a week and 100% of them were with white men.

You should come to Edmonton then. We had our Cari-West Festival about 2 months ago and the most common IR pairing was BM with East Asian women. Even more BM/EAF couples than BM/WF couples. Some of the East Asian women there were beautiful too.

[Vahz]

Why would I want to see EAF with non-Asian men? I managed to give your posts a benefit of the doubt of not being a troll unlike many of the other posters here but the more I read your entries, the more it seems like you're trying to get east Asian men riled up.

[t-tocs]

KHANartist is a troll. He bashes AM every chance he get.

Why would I want to see EAF with non-Asian men? I managed to give your posts a benefit of the doubt of not being a troll unlike many of the other posters here but the more I read your entries, the more it seems like you're trying to get east Asian men riled up.

[KHANartist]

Why would I want to see EAF with non-Asian men? I managed to give your posts a benefit of the doubt of not being a troll unlike many of the other posters here but the more I read your entries, the more it seems like you're trying to get east Asian men riled up.

I only mentioned it because you say that 100% of the EAF`s you saw in IR were with white men. This is not worth getting "riled up".

BTW, I`m from Britain too and the info your friend gave you is totally false. The ratio of East Asian(Oriental in Britain) women to EAM is about the same.

[Vahz]

Well, considering it came from a EA girl from England, I'm more willing to believe her account on her and her friend's experiences. All your posts seem to be leaning towards on information that would get Asian men riled up or at least make things look gloomy for Asian men.

[KHANartist]

Well, considering it came from a EA girl from England, I'm more willing to believe her account on her and her friend's experiences. All your posts seem to be leaning towards on information that would get Asian men riled up or at least make things look gloomy for Asian men.

Fair enough, I`d trust the word of someone I know over someone I didn`t know too. However, take a trip there sometime and draw your own conclusions.

I don`t think things look gloomy at all for Asian or East Asian men. My life is pretty good actually. How is yours?

[Vahz]

Fair enough, I`d trust the word of someone I know over someone I didn`t know too. However, take a trip there sometime and draw your own conclusions.

I don`t think things look gloomy at all for Asian or East Asian men. My life is pretty good actually. How is yours?

My life is fine and honestly, I don't really compare the issues of East Asian men with Asian men. Indians suffer from different problems than East Asians.

[dszykulski]

You should come to Edmonton then. We had our Cari-West Festival about 2 months ago and the most common IR pairing was BM with East Asian women. Even more BM/EAF couples than BM/WF couples. Some of the East Asian women there were beautiful too.

I`m mixed race(black/white), from Winnipeg and I`ve dated several Chinese-Canadian women.

[SamuraiJack]

I was chatting with a friend who knows a British born Asian woman (East Asian, not Indian) and they state that there are many Asian women over there that date white men -but- the reason why is because the ratio over there is 5:1.

The first choice for Asian women over there is an Asian male and they'll fight each other for them which turns Asian guys over there into jerks because they know they can be picky.

Are you saying the ratio of Asian women to Asian men in Britain is 5:1? I find that hard to believe. Do you have any other insight into this, such as the proportion that are born there vs those that immigrated?

[SamuraiJack]

Well, considering it came from a EA girl from England, I'm more willing to believe her account on her and her friend's experiences. All your posts seem to be leaning towards on information that would get Asian men riled up or at least make things look gloomy for Asian men.

I don't think it's his intention. I think dszykulski and khan are just your typical Asiaphiles, except they happen to be brown/black. It's obvious that most of what they write will be flame bait based on ignorance and stupidity, not on intent.

[kwak76]

vahz,

I'm curious about your friends view of merry England. This is the first time I heard of that.

dszykulski and KHANartist I think they prove their point. They hook up with East Asian girls and enjoy seeing black /brown men hooking up with East Asian girls. ....so what?!
Guys should get a medal or something . I mean I still don't know what the point is.

[VeryAngry]

Black, pakistani and indian chicks are hot!!

They crave men who will treat them well, and the good hard dicking that will follow. Butter on chocolate makes for a very pleasant aesthetic, the colors are contrasting and yet complementary at the same time, and they know that. ;)

There is of course, the issue of racial loyalty. The solution is simply to separate them from the men, and they're putty in your hands! :D

[VeryAngry]

Yeah, by the way, if anybody wants me to reduce my rhetoric, just drop me a note. Otherwise I would like to run riot and stomp all over this thing here.

[Vahz]

It's not that the ratio is 5:1 but rather the general idea that there are not enough "Oriental" men to go around. This causes many of the men to grow an inflated ego and treat the women like trash since they're in such high demand. Does that ring a bell anyone? Say, Asian American women and expats in Asian countries?

Even if they're dumped, they can find someone to pick them up at a moment's notice. Simple economics.

Not sure if they're British born or immigrants but my friend was born in Asia but moved to England with her family when she was 2.