The only halfway sane expat blog I've ever seen...

[atlasien]

I thought this might be interesting....

For some reason there are a gajillion expat bloggers in Korea, and all the ones I've browsed have been completely insane and/or racist and/or filled with endless bitching and whining, except for this one:

http://expatjane.blogspot.com/2007/07/ethnic-bias-seen-in-south-korea-teacher.html

And here it is, racially biased hiring in English language schools in Korea, that side of ESL teaching that I don't have much negative experience with because I teach on the college and university level. Thanks for blogging it Joe, I've been so busy that I missed it.

I know it's here and Mike and I discussed it in our podcast titled Being Black in Korea.

Good for us ("us" being blacks) NPR took the topic on in this piece: Ethnic Bias Seen in South Korea Teacher Hiring.

It's only about 5 minutes long and cuts right to what the problem is: igonorance among Korean parents who have the power to pull their kids out of these schools, hagwons, should the teacher be black. Since these schools are motivated by profit they avoid hiring blacks or other minorities. White skin regardless of anything else is what's valued (and probably why I end up avoiding most foreigners here...it's just not a diverse or very interesting crowd.)

This is the thing though. I've noticed that there are a lot more blacks coming here. Due to my blog and the podcast, I've gotten a few emails from other blacks asking questions. I know that I posted something on the most popular ESL forum in Korea and the answers I got from whites I knew just couldn't be true (as they were ALL negative and ALL completely over the top.) I took it upon myself to dig deeper. I ran net searches and found some black people and, wouldn't you know, their stories were completely different. It due to their advice of other blacks here that I should come, that sealed my decision. Which is why I stressed in the podcast that blacks really must make an effort to speak to people who've lived it first-hand. The bias against blacks isn't just with Koreans. I think a lot of white teachers encourage it here, for various reasons. I mean let a white person tell it and they've got pitchforks, tar and feathers waiting for us here. There is racism in Korea, no doubt. I've touched on it and other bloggers in Korea have too, but it's not with the hate that comes with it back home.

I do think a steady stream of blacks who show up to work, do a great job, end up liked rather than hated opens the door for more of us. The fact is the demand is so high that there is no way it can all be filled with whites. Plus, I've noticed that whites sometimes have a harder time adjusting as it's usually their first time ever having to deal with racism and stereotyping directed at them.

[...]

[lopan]

Great post. I found this thought to be particularly poignant:

I do think a steady stream of blacks who show up to work, do a great job, end up liked rather than hated opens the door for more of us. The fact is the demand is so high that there is no way it can all be filled with whites. Plus, I've noticed that whites sometimes have a harder time adjusting as it's usually their first time ever having to deal with racism and stereotyping directed at them.

[Tyger Durden]

This is the thing though. I've noticed that there are a lot more blacks coming here. Due to my blog and the podcast, I've gotten a few emails from other blacks asking questions. I know that I posted something on the most popular ESL forum in Korea and the answers I got from whites I knew just couldn't be true (as they were ALL negative and ALL completely over the top.) I took it upon myself to dig deeper. I ran net searches and found some black people and, wouldn't you know, their stories were completely different. It due to their advice of other blacks here that I should come, that sealed my decision. Which is why I stressed in the podcast that blacks really must make an effort to speak to people who've lived it first-hand.

Why are American blacks worried about teaching English in Korea and elsewhere overseas and the subsequent treatment by the locals when there is a need for black teachers to serve as role models in districts where the percentage of black students outnumbers the percentage of black teachers (http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/story/115938.html) in America?

Talk about having your priorities twisted.

[nekohead]

I did not read the Blog. But, I did read the last post and Tyger Durden you are so RIGHT!

[lopan]

Why are American blacks worried about teaching English in Korea and elsewhere overseas and the subsequent treatment by the locals when there is a need for black teachers to serve as role models in districts where the percentage of black students outnumbers the percentage of black teachers (http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/story/115938.html) in America?

Talk about having your priorities twisted.

That's not the point. Their priority is not representing positive black role models; their priority is to make a living. And it so happens that they can best make a living as English teachers abroad. It just happens that they're facing racial issues out there, and so priority 4, 5 or 6 for them happens to be tackling racial issues and doing the best they can where they are.

[Tyger Durden]

That's not the point. Their priority is not representing positive black role models; their priority is to make a living. And it so happens that they can best make a living as English teachers abroad. It just happens that they're facing racial issues out there, and so priority 4, 5 or 6 for them happens to be tackling racial issues and doing the best they can where they are.

So that means that the "Ebonics" controversy will never arise again, right?

[DONKEY]

i wonder what the attraction is to becoming an ESL teacher. how much does it pay typically? that girl's blog says she went to law school. i had no idea law school graduates would be doing this.

[Presto]

i wonder what the attraction is to becoming an ESL teacher. how much does it pay typically? that girl's blog says she went to law school. i had no idea law school graduates would be doing this.

Law is an over saturated field.

[ExpatJane]

First, atlasien, thanks for the compliment and the link.

Most foreigners here are white and haven't ever had to deal with being the "other". They get quite worked up about it. As it stands now, there is a culture of foreigners who are drunk a bit too much (easy to do in a country where smoking and drinking are firmly rooted in the culture), complain about Korea endlessly while dating their women and making money off of the drive to study English.

However, I've found some nice folks too. They're harder to locate though.

Why are American blacks worried about teaching English in Korea and elsewhere overseas and the subsequent treatment by the locals when there is a need for black teachers to serve as role models in districts where the percentage of black students outnumbers the percentage of black teachers (http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/story/115938.html) in America?

Talk about having your priorities twisted.
So you're saying that because we have issues in the States, which I don't deny, that if there are black people who would like to travel, live abroad and experience the world they shouldn't? We're burdened to stay in the States when actually maybe going to school, getting educated, going abroad, learning about cultures and languages and coming back as people with exciting stories and experiences would return us home even better role models? I think you need to think about what you say a bit more. :rolleyes:

I think that's a very narrow scope of black issues to choose from and I don't buy it. I'm black and I have just as much of a right to have broad interests as you or anyone else. I think one big problem with society is putting people in boxes and making presumptions about what does or doesn't interest them based on their race, religion or gender.

However, actually you miss the point. Had you listened to the NPR piece or read my blog on it you'd see the distinction that pretty consistently most blacks take this hiring bias in stride because we're not surprised it happens. So, it seems the persons most concerned about it aren't black anyway.

@DONKEY

Had you read further you'd also know I'm actually planning to get my PhD. It's not like you sign your name in blood and swear to practice law after you graduate ;)

Law is an over saturated field.
It is, but I left a nice job to do this. It's not about money. It's about life.

[jaehwan]

That's not the point. Their priority is not representing positive black role models; their priority is to make a living. And it so happens that they can best make a living as English teachers abroad. It just happens that they're facing racial issues out there, and so priority 4, 5 or 6 for them happens to be tackling racial issues and doing the best they can where they are.

Agreed. And echoing what ExpatJane said, it's also about choices and being allowed to make choices.

It's kind of like being a monolingual Chinese American who wants to study French or Russian. Some of these cultural purists might say, "Well, why don't you learn how to speak your ancestral language first?"

I say study and do whatever floats your boat. Be free. Race shouldn't constrain anyone.

[howstrange]

I say study and do whatever floats your boat. Be free. Race shouldn't constrain anyone.


I agree but also should add that identity awareness is just as important, especially if you're a minority. Learn about ones self and the racial dynamics in where you live first, so that the boat you set sail in is well built and will navigate you to healthy and abundant waters.

[kwak76]

ExpatJane,


Quick question do black expats want the same treatment that white expat get? I mean black people in Korea will experience more racism than a white person but nevertheless there are some black expat in Korea who are just as ignorant as white expats and also date the local girls and live life no differently than the white expats.

[kwak76]

ExpatJane,

I'm a kyopo and to be honest I thought about going to Korea and doing the whole "ESL" thing but decided against it because I didn't want to deal with the expat crowd. I was in Korea for 5 months during 2004 and witness the double standard treatment that Koreans do to white people vs. let say someone of color. I also agree that most of the expats in Korea are bunch of drunk with yellow fever.

What bothers me the most is that Korean people worship white people and let white people get away with behaviors that they wouldn't do back home.
It is also sad to see that a fair number of Korean women buy into the stereotype that Mr.White guy is more open minded or romantic when in reality most of the white guys I saw in Korea are mediocre at best.

The stereotypes for black men in Korea is what Korean people see in the media. They either are hip -hop artist, dancers or sports man. If a black guy went to a hip-hop club in Korea I think they are treated like heros just because they are black.

I seen some black guys in Korea dating Korean women and also complaining about Korea which is no different from what a white guy will do. If anything I think the whole expat community should be deported . Just my bias feelings about them.

I really think the expat community complain because they don't have full access to everything in Korea. In other words they feel (mostly whites but I also get this with black Americans in Korea) like they are entitled to everything and if they don't get thier way they think Korea is backwards or racist while fucking a Korean girl.

Sorry..just had to rant because this is what I witness in Korea. On a side note though..I also think the Kyopo community is only a step above the expat community but could be just as bad.

[theme]

First, atlasien, thanks for the compliment and the link.

Most foreigners here are white and haven't ever had to deal with being the "other". They get quite worked up about it. As it stands now, there is a culture of foreigners who are drunk a bit too much (easy to do in a country where smoking and drinking are firmly rooted in the culture), complain about Korea endlessly while dating their women and making money off of the drive to study English.



Thanks for using tactful words. I can imagine a few different ways that could be phrased that would make this forum explode.

God bless our Asian women.

[Tyger Durden]

...So you're saying that because we have issues in the States, which I don't deny, that if there are black people who would like to travel, live abroad and experience the world they shouldn't? We're burdened to stay in the States when actually maybe going to school, getting educated, going abroad, learning about cultures and languages and coming back as people with exciting stories and experiences would return us home even better role models? I think you need to think about what you say a bit more. :rolleyes:

Wow! speak of the devil...make threads about certain subjects and BAM! people out of the blue see the bat-signal and make their first posts in that very thread...

More power to you if you ever return to the States and become those role models, i.e. teachers, and get to tell your "exciting stories" and such. Too bad teaching in America doesn't pay as well and is really done by altruistic, not opportunistic, people.

I just find it LOL that Blacks wanna go overseas to teach English and then complain about "racism" by some Asians. What were you expecting, a trip to Disneyland? :rolleyes:


ExpatJane,

Quick question do black expats want the same treatment that white expat get? I mean black people in Korea will experience more racism than a white person but nevertheless there are some black expat in Korea who are just as ignorant as white expats and also date the local girls and live life no differently than the white expats.

yeah, I would like an answer to your question as well, Kwak.

Great observation in the latter paragraph. Hopefully, it can be addressed too.

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[atlasien]

Tyger, WHAT is your problem with black women? This is a rather disturbing pattern with you attacking them.

Personally, I don't want black women telling me how to be Asian, so in turn I extend the respect of not telling them how to be black.

Any expat has the right to complain about racism. Racism is almost everywhere in the world now and pretending it doesn't exist is ridiculous. I've lived in Mexico for an extended period of time and yes, I experienced some racism there. It's when people blow it up and get disappointed that they're not treated as some kind of freaking demigod that it gets pathetic.

I've thought about teaching English in Japan in the past, for the money and also to learn some Japanese. I didn't think I could handle the social isolation though, and not knowing any people my age there. I have too many obligations here now.

[jaehwan]

I agree but also should add that identity awareness is just as important, especially if you're a minority. Learn about ones self and the racial dynamics in where you live first, so that the boat you set sail in is well built and will navigate you to healthy and abundant waters.

For you and me, I'd agree, but I would not necessarily expect every Asian American or other minority to take that path. If an Asian American wants to pack up and go to France but doesn't yet have an awareness as a minority in America, I'd still say go. Obviously you and I need that identity awareness, but such may not be the case for everyone.

I just find it LOL that Blacks wanna go overseas to teach English and then complain about "racism" by some Asians. What were you expecting, a trip to Disneyland?

Many Asian Americans complain about white supremacist racism in Asia. Some ascribe it to the effects of colonialism, while some say it's just a white is right mentality, but Asian Americans complain. If Asians can complain about pro-white racism, why can't black people complain too? White supremacist racism is white supremacist racism, no matter who is doing the complaining.

[Tyger Durden]

Tyger, WHAT is your problem with black women? This is a rather disturbing pattern with you attacking them...

Oh, I had a lot to say about White People and White Privilege over the years here. I just toned it down. And I don't think it's a gender thing either. You really missed out on all the fun.

....Personally, I don't want black women telling me how to be Asian, so in turn I extend the respect of not telling them how to be black...

that's one the stupidest things I've heard here. What does teaching and the lack of quality Black teachers in America have to do with "being" Black? You as an American probably go around telling the rest of the world how to be a Southern White American belle (http://www.answers.com/topic/southern-belle-1) and don't even know it.

Let me rephrase myself for further controversy or clarification, take your pick: When Blacks try to help or mimic the White Man with his so-called Burden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_man%27s_burden) overseas, don't be surprised when they are treated as mere Porters, Valets and Baggage-handlers by the locals because Whites arrived in Asia centuries before the Blacks. And even if Whites never encountered Asians and Blacks somehow arrived to their lands first, there would still be some "xenophobia" involved against other people, some worse than others.

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[atlasien]

Tyger, you sometimes have good points but this time you really, really don't. Do you teach English to children in inner city schools? If not, then why attack someone for teaching English for money? I've taught English for money, and on a volunteer basis, and your point is totally lost on me.

I'm not surprised that blacks face racism in Korea, or Japan. In fact I'd be surprised if they didn't. If you have a problem with ExpatJane's analysis of racism in Korea, then address it. Instead, you just tell her she doesn't have a right to speak about the issue at all! If you really believe she doesn't have a right to speak about it, what gives you the right to speak about it?

Again, I dislike anyone, black or white, telling me I'm not Asian or Japanese enough because I don't speak Japanese. It's the height of arrogance and entitlement. The only people who I think have the right to do that are other Asians or Japanese, and even then it's very rude. I also don't tell black people they're not black enough because they don't teach in the inner city. Again, I totally don't understand your point about going around teaching people what Southern White Americans are like. The most common reaction I get abroad is "what are you".

What she's saying strikes me as very noncontroversial and pragmatic.

1. There is racism against black people in Korea
2. Some of this is racism learned from white people and some of it is xenophobia (which I assume to be present in most monocultural societies)
3. The racism in Korea against black people is not as bad as white people think it is
4. Racism in America against black people has a worse effect than racism in Korea against black people

Do you really have a logical disagreement with any of those points? If so, why can't you make that disagreement without a personal attack? I guarantee it would be much better understood.

[Tyger Durden]

Tyger, you sometimes have good points but this time you really, really don't. Do you teach English to children in inner city schools? If not, then why attack someone for teaching English for money? I've taught English for money, and on a volunteer basis, and your point is totally lost on me...

Yeah, I've been a substitute teacher in inner-city Oakland CA. So what's your point again?

...Instead, you just tell her she doesn't have a right to speak about the issue at all! If you really believe she doesn't have a right to speak about it, what gives you the right to speak about it?

And this is where you get absolutely STUPID.

I said I LOL when it (racism overseas) happens to them, not that they should NOT complain about racism overseas. My attitude is: so what did you expect?

So get your story straight before presenting any lessons, Teacher.

[atlasien]

My point is that you're acting like a dick and in doing so failing to get your points across. If your point was "what did she expect", the post made it quite clear that she expected SOME racism, based on prior research, but not nearly as much as the white expats described... a prediction which was then born out by later experience.

Since you insist you can't disagree with anyone without resorting to personal attacks, there's no point in continuing this anymore. Please feel free to yell "winner" :rolleyes: .

[kwak76]

Tyger Dundan,

Relax . Not everyone that goes overseas will know what they are getting into until they experience it. Racism is pretty much everywhere and Asia has it's share of it. Not everyone will know what to expect when they go to Asia.

ExpatJane is black female and she will have two reason why she will view Korea differently 1)she's black and she's female.

It has been my experience that westerns girls in Korea complain more about Korea than Western guys. Allot of it has to do with the fact that Korea is more male dominate society and western guys just take advantage of it. This also goes with kyopo males.

In other words all the white guys I saw in Korea were too busy chasing after Korean girl and pretty much ignored the expat girls. The expat girls for the most part were not interested in dating native Korean guys(allot of the white girls I saw thought native Korean guys were too sexist) and felt like "second place" and complained about that.

Being black in Korea also puts you in "second place" compared to white people. I think if expatjane was expatwhitejoe than the view points would be different.

So expatjane has 2 strikes against her in Korea. She black and female. Korea is also a very superficial society where looks are important. If she is unattractive looking than that would be strike 3.

[Tyger Durden]

Interesting observation ^ Kwak. I'm actually learning a lot from you rather than others in this thread.

Please feel free to yell "winner" :rolleyes: .

WINNER!

Yeah, it's real easy to "win" when people like you make emotional arguments in the guise of logical arguments and get your facts all mixed up in the process and then get all emotional when you're proven to have made a mistake. Now that is LOL to me as well.

You always go around saying proudly that you don't tell other "races" how to act because you're above it in some way, but your implicit approval and lauding of this Expat's experience is doing exactly that.

Once again, I never said this person should/could not complain about racism overseas, I said I found it to be amusing (it caused me to LOL) and I suggested that Blacks may be better off teaching fellow Blacks (or fellow Americans for that matter) in America because of the overt and desperate teacher's shortage here in America.

It is YOU who confused my stance for your own benefit and got all emotional about it.

[ExpatJane]

This is interesting as wow...three pages?

@howstrange
Why do you assume I don't know about my culture, identity or the racial dynamics that impact me? Plus, being abroad has actually brought some of those issues into sharper focus.

@kwak76

I guess re being black and female and complaining but, um, I wasn't complaining.

If you listen to my podcast on being black in Korea, I'm actually pretty positive. Mike was interviewed (my friend), Joe blogged it (my friend), I noticed I missed it (been busy) and decided to blog it too because it's something that people ask me about a lot.

For what it's worth, I hear you re the foreigners in ESL. These days I run in another circle, so I'm not too worried about them.

Kyopos can be worse because they have the ethnicity. I've seen some kyopos just be amazingly abusive to native born Koreans and I have no idea why that happens. I've also met some who are really nice, but I get what you're saying.

However, I think you're assuming I have it worse, when, for the most part, I have it better. There is a huge backlash against the uneducated, rude, white Westerner. They meet me. I break just about every stereotype they've been fed. They feel smart, and, they are for getting around it. I'm not saying that I wouldn't benefit more if I were a white woman, but we're used to it.

@Tyler

Interesting tone. Smug much? Like you I was a substitute teacher, east Stanford and other areas in that district (some were nice districts though.)

I just find it LOL that Blacks wanna go overseas to teach English and then complain about "racism" by some Asians. What were you expecting, a trip to Disneyland?
Go back and think it through. Who did the piece? Probably a white guy.

Plus, I know I've said the main people going on and on about Koreans being racist are the white folks who are dealing with it for the first time.

Even the interviewee said he'd been rejected based on race and kept applying until he found a position and even went on to speak to the pluses of being here. So nice argument, but if anyone is playing the race card in this scenario, it's you.

As for my future goals, I think that no matter what I do, yeah, I'm going to come back home as that woman who lived in Korea for awhile and that will inspire other blacks to be open to exploring more. We're not a monolith and just like we let Joe and Becky have a range of interests I don't see why blacks or other minorities can't.

As for coming out of the woodwork, I have a blog, I check my traffic, I saw the link and thought I'd see why I was linked. When I get linked, if I'm not already a member and I can join, I'll pop in to say thanks. Believe it or not, some of us try to have good manners online. :rolleyes:

However, I know this is a forum focused on the Asian disapora, so this will probably be the only thread I'm in unless someone links to the blog I wrote on Kenneth Eng :p

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Carry on...there seems to be a good number of rivalries and grudges already. Have fun with that.

[Dialectic]

Hi EJ, welcome to the 44s, nice to see you here! Please ignore the crazier members here, as they have emotional issues :P We welcome you to participate in any thread you like!

[kwak76]

expatjane,

Maybe complaining is too strong of a word to use but because your black you will see Korea differently because of your experience. Same with me because I am a kyopo when I was in Korea.

With Kyopos in Korea some actually think they are better than native Koreans just because a kyopo grew up in America. They act stuck up or feel entitled to some bullshit thinking. It's messed up on thier part but I also met some decent kyopos in Korea trying to make a change in Korea for the better.

You mentioned that there is a backlash agaisnt "uneducted rude white people in Korea", How so?

[kwak76]

"For what it's worth, I hear you re the foreigners in ESL."

I think with kyopos we are either looked as foreigners or if we could fake it by speaking decent Korean than a native Korean.

This is something a expat white person will never understand about a kyopo. Maybe a black person might to a degree.

Here in America as an Asian person I experience racism and sometimes don't fit in because of my race. When I go back to Korea because I am a Kyopo I also don't fit in.

As you probably know a white expat could go back to USA, Canada, or whatever the hell they are from and would be the standard but in Korea they stand out as a sore thumb because they are white but still have the benefit of white privilege even in Asia.

I think with kyopo some of us get piss off by that because of the double standard treatment.

To native Koreans they have a higher degree of standards when it comes to Kyopo. If I am a kyopo who cannot speak good Korean or know about my culture than to native Koreans I am not "Korean " enough for them and would be treated differently. From my own experience it is usually negative.

However, as you probably notice with white expat who could speak really bad Korean . They sometimes put them on TV . Double standard treatement like this is what piss me off. But that's Korea for you.

Just do your part and educate Korean people . Korean people could be the most racist people on the planet but not understand why they are racist.