European Racism ...in soccer

[kwak76]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jwpO-nnFY9g

I know in Asia you have foreign players that play in Japan, South Korea and China but I don't think I every heard of Asian fans heckling or making fun of foreign players.

i never visited Europe but watching this reminds me that Europe compared to America is worst when it comes to race relationship.

[Logain]

It's especially irritating when you hear so many Europeans talk about how "racism isn't a problem" in Europe like it is in America. And a few thousand fans making monkey noises at black players in multiple European nations is just "a few knuckleheads". I don't know if that's more annoying than the Americans who deny racism is a problem here at all though.

[theme]

Thanks for reminding us kwak. We almost forgot that.

[kwak76]

No problem theme..just doing my part here.

[theme]

And doing a fantastic job at that might I add.

a gold star for you sir! bravo.

[kwak76]

thanks again..no need for the ego boost.

[jaehwan]

Thanks for the link. I've been to Europe, and it's definitely worse there than here.

[Harangue]

I don't know if I'm generalizing too much, but many Asians seem to have this notion where they expect Europe and North America to welcome them with open arms (regardless of culture or language conflicts), but think nothing of the blatant racism in Asia towards foreigners. How many Asians would be open to China or Japan or Korea becoming multicultural societies like the United States, Britain, or Canada? If certain regions of Korea became more fluent in Tagalog than Korean, how would the Koreans take it? If China was overrun by zealous and violent Christian fundamentalists, how would they take it?

I am not promoting an anti-immigrant agenda here, and I utterly abhor the likes of Jean-Marie Le Pen or Tom Tancredo. But I do wish to try and create and understanding of why certain prejudicial attitudes exist in an empathetic manner. When I go around in Asian forums, I'll often find posts by angry immigrants from China accusing Americans of being racist towards them, yet in another thread, they completely dismiss the idea of China becoming a multicultural society. Are they not hypocrities then? Of course they are. To expect a neighbour to embrace you when you would not do the same for him is just wrong.

Back to the topic though, much of these blatantly racist incidents seem to happen in the less open societies of Spain and Italy. These countries are not as cosmopolitan or wealthy as the likes of Britain, France, or the western portion of Germany (yes, they've reunited, but the west is still more "presentable" than the east). Spain is barely 25 years removed from a dictatorship, and Italy is practically run by the media mafia. What I'm trying to condescendingly say is, "Don't expect too much from these people". And I'm sure that the more urbane populations in Milan or Barcelona are much better.

On the flip side, what about the horrible racism that Blacks face in Asia? Have you ever brought up the possibility of marrying, or merely dating, a Black person? Have you ever talked about the possibility of a half-Black baby? You'd probably get a 10-hour lecture even in Shanghai or Seoul, and in the countryside, you'd probably get burned at the stake. Again, I'm not trying to condone European racism or put down Asian societies, but I am trying to prevent one-sided judgmental behavior from Asians who believe that discrimination should only be fixed in Western societies. The racist implication of that notion is that only Western countries have the moral obligation to be accepting, while the backwards countries in the rest of the world can do whatever they want because nobody cares about them anyway.

[SamuraiJack]

Harangue, are you white? You sure sound like it, with your beliefs that Asian society is just as racist as white society -- basically ignoring the white privilege.

Yes, all races are on equal footing in the world. Good for you.

[Harangue]

No, SamuraiJack, I am Asian.

What I'm trying to point out is why people expect backwaters Spaniards or Italians to be fair-minded, but don't expect the same from even urbane Asians.

[Scowl]

As far as this thread goes, I think it's something that kwak wasn't aware of, and he decided to share that here for anyone else who might not know.

What I'm trying to point out is why people expect backwaters Spaniards or Italians to be fair-minded, but don't expect the same from even urbane Asians.

I'm not really seeing that here. Yeah, it does happen, but this thread is more like, "Wow, European soccer players can be really racist. You don't see Asians treating the players on their own teams this way." That, and a bit of, "In regards to racism, Europe isn't any better than the US." I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that I don't see how it applies within the context of this thread.

[Harangue]

I'm not really seeing that here. Yeah, it does happen, but this thread is more like, "Wow, European soccer players can be really racist. You don't see Asians treating the players on their own teams this way." That, and a bit of, "In regards to racism, Europe isn't any better than the US." I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that I don't see how it applies within the context of this thread.

Okay, I understand. But I don't see how complaining about racist European soccer fans is going to be that productive. Is this just going to turn into a Euro-bashing session?

[minbo]

You will get all types of people with different responses. We have members who are not Asian who live in Asia and experience racism by Asians directly. If you take the time to review some of the older posts, we do have threads discussing racism in Asia against non-Asians and ethnic discrimination in Asia against other Asians. We also have a recent thread entirely about discussing the family ramifications and personal viewpoints of dating/marrying someone who is black. I don't expect that newer members will do searches on old threads or topics, but some of the questions you ask if we have considered and the positions you seem to believe many members of this forum hold would be fairly easily answered or dismissed by going back a few pages of threads. Of course, you will also find that there are members on this forum that do hold the positions that you seem to be railing against.

Next up, just because Asia is racist, doesn't mean that I can't condemn racism in Europe or racism in America.

About the whole immigrant thing, I don't see how that applies. I'm not an immigrant. I was born in the USA, and I know several people who have been in the US for several generations. They (and I) are not asking to be welcomed as foreigners to a new land. They are asking to not be shat upon because they look different by their peers, their fellow citizens, their fellow Americans who sometimes have had much shorter roots in America than they do.

[Harangue]

Next up, just because Asia is racist, doesn't mean that I can't condemn racism in Europe or racism in America.

Yes, but it's important not to get hypocritical.

About the whole immigrant thing, I don't see how that applies. I'm not an immigrant. I was born in the USA, and I know several people who have been in the US for several generations. They (and I) are not asking to be welcomed as foreigners to a new land. They are asking to not be shat upon because they look different by their peers, their fellow citizens, their fellow Americans who sometimes have had much shorter roots in America than they do.

I was mostly thinking of those types of Asians who do very little to integrate themselves into the rest of American society and still wonder why people "don't get them" or are distrusting of them. If a bunch of White Americans came to China and carved out little "White-towns", how would the Chinese feel?

[nightshade]

Yes, but it's important not to get hypocritical.



I was mostly thinking of those types of Asians who do very little to integrate themselves into the rest of American society and still wonder why people "don't get them" or are distrusting of them. If a bunch of White Americans came to China and carved out little "White-towns", how would the Chinese feel?

Chinatowns in North America exist because many of the first Chinese immigrants to North America were only allowed to live in a designated part of the city, i.e. the shittiest and poorest part.

These "White Americans" you speak of who go to China have much more privilege. Oh, incidentally, the hypothetical "white towns" you speak of in China are called "expat communities."

[minbo]

I was mostly thinking of those types of Asians who do very little to integrate themselves into the rest of American society and still wonder why people "don't get them" or are distrusting of them. If a bunch of White Americans came to China and carved out little "White-towns", how would the Chinese feel?

You mean like (to name a few) Hong Kong, Macau, Qingdao, Lushun, Fort Bayard, Port Arthur, Amur territories, Okinawa military bases...

vs

San Francisco Chinatown ghetto and New York Chinatown ghetto, railroad construction worker camps, Manzanar, Tule Lake, Poston, to name some things on the other side?

I do agree with what you are saying, if you don't make an effort to bridge cultural gaps, then you do lose some standing to complain about being treated as an outsider, but those are generally not the issues that are normally discussed or aired as grievances on this forum.

I actually don't have any issue with what I believe is your core points, but the generalities you use to express your points lead me to disagree with with the broad swaths you are painting as bad, because what you catch is is not all bad...

[Scowl]

I was mostly thinking of those types of Asians who do very little to integrate themselves into the rest of American society and still wonder why people "don't get them" or are distrusting of them. If a bunch of White Americans came to China and carved out little "White-towns", how would the Chinese feel?

Wow, dude. I was kind of with you up until this part. Where did that come from? How did we get here from that first post in this thread?

[Heyyu]

I was mostly thinking of those types of Asians who do very little to integrate themselves into the rest of American society and still wonder why people "don't get them" or are distrusting of them. If a bunch of White Americans came to China and carved out little "White-towns", how would the Chinese feel?

Ok, Harangue sounds either like a white boy in disguise or a thorougly white-washed twinkie... seriously, what type of Asian would type this?

[blockthebox]

Ok, Harangue sounds either like a white boy in disguise or a thorougly white-washed twinkie... seriously, what type of Asian would type this?

An apologist? A troll? Anyway, I'm really quite disappointed. He's not living up to his UN. Come on! Give us some more haranguing, goddammit!!!

[Dialectic]

Harangue, your posts indicate that you are not aware of the total context in which race politics occur.

Americans and Europeans didn't start "white towns," no, because they tried to colonize the whole damn place wherever they went, and they made exclusive white areas on top of that. Now, you might say stuff that happened a century or so ago is not relevant today, but it is, because the results of all that stuff have made the massively unbalanced world we see today.

Secondly, it's OKAY to have communities and organizations with special interests. It's not a bad thing. People with similar backgrounds and similar interests get together. That's what they do. It's the only way, in fact, to maximize the probability that they grow up mentally healthy and minimize the risks of racial identity crises.

Third, as nightshade pointed out above, a lot of these communities started because people weren't welcome into regular white society. That hasn't entirely changed today.

Fourth, yes, Asians can be racist, just like anyone can be racist. Entirely beside the point of the thread.

Finally, I take your point that there are Asians who don't try to integrate at all, and yes, that's quite obnoxious. There are also whites who do nothing to understand or help newcomers integrate despite being willing to use their labour or take their money. Again, beside the point.

[Harangue]

The reason why I keep bringing up racism in Asian countries is because what's the point of feeling indignant and self-righteous in the face of some racist fans in rural Europe when we all know that such attitudes exist everywhere else in the world as well? True, Korean fans generally don't throw bananas at the dark-skinned players in their K-League teams, but that's not a good analogy because who goes to K-League games anyway? In an Italian beauty pageant a few years ago, a Black woman was crowned as the winner (though not without some complaints). Can you imagine the same thing happening in Korea? Or Japan? That certain parts of Europe are racist is an obvious fact. However, this is not a unique trait endemic to evil Whitey. I just want people to stop thinking of only White people as people who need to get rid of their prejudices, especially in this world where the balance of power is shifting from West to East.

[awong]

you just dont get it

[DONKEY]

of all the things discussed here i thought Asians not assimilating into American society was the least of our worries.
maybe im wrong but isnt the opposite more worrisome?

[Vetrean]

White racism inherently has more effect because of the colonialistic mindset. Nobody can claim 'hey, guess what, only colored folks can be objective and non-prejudiced! And only white folks can be prejudiced!' Because that's a ridiculous claim. But the racism of white folks inherently has more power because of the colonial mindset. Asian values and Asian standards have never been as thoroughly stamped into the world as white values and standards have via colonization.

Of course, that doesn't mean prejudice from any side isn't deplorable, but not everyone's perfect, and rather than step back and say 'let's avoid being hypocrites and make sure we're all saints before we say anything,' we should just keep pushing forward. White privilege is still there, and that's what we're going after. In case you hadn't noticed, we haven't won yet.

I don't think 'equality' means 'hey, nobody should be prejudiced.' Although that'd be nice. I think it's more 'hey, you can be prejudiced, but, heh, it doesn't matter anymore, 'cuz you can't do anything with that prejudice.' Once you get to that point, you're free to attack prejudice at your leisure.

[Harangue]

White racism inherently has more effect because of the colonialistic mindset. Nobody can claim 'hey, guess what, only colored folks can be objective and non-prejudiced! And only white folks can be prejudiced!' Because that's a ridiculous claim. But the racism of white folks inherently has more power because of the colonial mindset. Asian values and Asian standards have never been as thoroughly stamped into the world as white values and standards have via colonization.

Of course, that doesn't mean prejudice from any side isn't deplorable, but not everyone's perfect, and rather than step back and say 'let's avoid being hypocrites and make sure we're all saints before we say anything,' we should just keep pushing forward. White privilege is still there, and that's what we're going after. In case you hadn't noticed, we haven't won yet.

I don't think 'equality' means 'hey, nobody should be prejudiced.' Although that'd be nice. I think it's more 'hey, you can be prejudiced, but, heh, it doesn't matter anymore, 'cuz you can't do anything with that prejudice.' Once you get to that point, you're free to attack prejudice at your leisure.

I agree with much of what you say.

My main issue is why we uphold some Italian mechanic, who lives with his mama in Bumvilla, who is generations removed from the last aggressive act of colonialism (as if Italians were noteworthy colonialists in the first place), as some kind of nefarious example of White Privilege, while we choose to view an Ivy League-educated Asian doctor who is an appreciated member of his community as a perpetual victim.

[evil_FUX]

^Ok now you're just exaggerating the viewpoints

[Heyyu]

I do agree that Asians can be racist (especially against blacks, Latinos, and everyone on the "lower end" of the racial hierarchy). Just as blacks, Latinos, etc. can be racist too. No one is arguing that (and it is indeed sad to see minorities racist against each other).

HOWEVER, to equate Asian racism against whites with the social and historical privilege and status accorded to whites... here, how about this. If you're this adamant about it (cause it sounds like you are), how about travel to your nearest white suburbia and start apologizing "Oh, I'm so sorry Mr.Smith for us Asians being racist against you and keeping you down. Yeah, Pearl Harbor. Shame on us. And that Mao Zedong person and the North Korean dictator. I also apologize for Genghis Khan raping and pillaging your great great ancestors in Europe. And so sorry our men like Bruce Lee were taking your women too. Hey, they just can't resist Jackie Chan and Jet Li..."

[john cracker]

who cares about soccor anyway lol

[Vahz]

Every country except for the US.

[Vetrean]

Who cares about American football...?

That's pretty much a rhetorical question, there.

@Harangue: I should point out that it doesn't matter what kind of white you are, or how far removed you are from colonization; if you're white, you naturally benefit from colonialism. The mindset ingrained in the minds of the colonized isn't 'The British are at the top,' but 'The whites are at the top.' And that's what happens.

Of course, I'd be willing to bet that in terms of pandering, minorities will care less about you if you're, like, a Russian white compared to an American white, but that's moving beyond just the 'white' stigma into something else.

We can't really tell them crackers apart, anywho. :P

[Kuroyama]

Harangue

...Im interested in hearing more about this racism against Blacks in Asia! What is that about?

[Kuroyama]

OK...that was foul. Harangue. I am Black and live in Japan. I dont teach English, Im not a DJ, a rapper, and am pretty far removed from just about whatever stereotype youre can come up with.

Still, what racism I do experience here I see largely as a result of the mindset brought over by early Euros and followed by post-war occupants.

So I have to deal with the result of white colonialism at home in the US and on the other side of the planet as well. I dont think you can find Asian racism quite that far-reaching and damaging. But thats just me.

[taciturnscientist]

One of my best friends is a huge European football fan (being European himself) and I had confronted him once about the issue of certain fans making "monkey sounds" at black footballers. His response was that they do it simply to get into the heads of those players, but may not necessarily believe in the racism one would think was behind their behavior. While classless and tactless, and while it perpetuates archaic stereotypes, do you guys still think it's racist? And of course, this is not to say that all monkey-sound making fans are of one flavor.

[Kuroyama]

So... their defense of their indefensible actions is: "getting in the heads of the other players?"

Typical thought process of The Cultural Majority.
It excuses nothing. Id tell you to tell your euro-trash friend this, but hed likely not understand. So why bother? Better he should come to harm at the hands of those hes insulted. Im certain their arguments will be far more convincing... or at the very least leave a more lasting impression yes? ;)

[Dirac]

That sounds like the worst excuse I have ever heard. There are a million, fantastic non-racist football chants to get in the heads of football players ("you're so shit it's unbelievable" comes to mind).

Racism is a big problem in football and there have been many campaigns to try and tackle this. However the fans making the monkey noises may feel about what they are doing, make no mistake - the players understand perfectly. Eric Cantona (French football player) once kicked a fan in the head who was shouting racist remarks at him.

[takedown]

That sounds like the worst excuse I have ever heard. There are a million, fantastic non-racist football chants to get in the heads of football players ("you're so shit it's unbelievable" comes to mind).

Racism is a big problem in football and there have been many campaigns to try and tackle this. However the fans making the monkey noises may feel about what they are doing, make no mistake - the players understand perfectly. Eric Cantona (French football player) once kicked a fan in the head who was shouting racist remarks at him.

how does Eric Cantona get racist remarks thrown at him? Did the fan call him a French Monkey, or bigfoot or som'n liedat? Anyway, I always thought that Europe can be pretty racist - and this is validated by all the soccer racism. Even the Japanese player Nakamura said there's racism (apparently against him) when he played in the Serie A. After all, let's not forget that there's pretty much no civil rights laws like we do in the U.S., moreover, it's EUROPE - the absolute stronghold of white ppl. If you are there they pretty much can do sh*t to you and they don't give a f.

[Dirac]

Well....they made fun of his race. This happened in England. I am interested, however, to hear about the lack of civil rights in Europe.

[takedown]

Well....they made fun of his race. This happened in England. I am interested, however, to hear about the lack of civil rights in Europe.

Apparently a lot of KKK and skinhead mofos go to Europe to attend their gatherings and so forth cuz it's more allowed over there. I don't think there's an equivalent "hate crime" bill in most of Europe. Imagine if you are in Europe and you are European. Somebody screams "white power"! What you gon' do? You'd be like: hell ya! Cuz you and everyone around you are white.

In Europe, you can prolly also say sh*t like the following out loud:

1) " This country was founded by white ppl !" (ok...that's very true)

2) " I don't like those darkie foreigners !" (what the hell they gon' do to you?)

3) " I think white, European culture is superior to all other ! " (somebody standing next to you will prolly high-five you, or whatever it is that they do there.)

4) " Those immigrants really f*ck up our society !" (European countries are NOT countries of immigrants - not like in the U.S. tradition at least.)

5) " White ppl rule !" (again, you'll prolly get a high-five.)

6) " This country belongs to white ppl..." (Prolly very true...indeed)

you get the picture. Of course, not saying that everybody in Europe says these things on a daily basis, but the point is...even if you say them ppl don't really give a F.

[Dirac]

Thanks for clarifying. Where in Europe are you from?

[Shadow_Reaper]

Having to travelled to Europe in terms of racism it is highly blurred topic.

Reason? Having to travelled to Norway and Switzerland, the people there were VERY OPEN AND FRIENDLY. But this is obviously coming from an Asian's perspective.

for blacks im not too sure but when i was there and saw some blacks, i dont think they minded too much.

But i guess it really boils down to location. Some trashy area, the people there are generally a bit more hostile to other races. Its like travelling through the deep south. :P

[Heyyu]

The USA is probably the most diverse society on earth, so naturally there's going to be a lot of racial problems when you get so many different groups living together (i.e. Black/Hispanic/Asian/Arab/Native American/Eskimo).

In Europe, as that video said, black Europeans are RARE. With the only exception being a few of the big diverse cosmopolitan cities like London/Paris/Amsterdam (which is also where there's a lot of racial problems with blacks & Muslims as well). But in general, White Europeans are not used to dealing with blacks. Not to mention that unlike North America or Australia... Europe was not founded as an immigrant society.

I think many Europeans are strongly anti-immigrant... not just against blacks & Muslims, but even against other white Europeans immigrating to their country (which the European Union has only exacerbated). For example, there's a strong bias against Eastern Europeans moving to Western European countries (like UK/France/Germany). Not to mention the historical bad blood between different groups (like Irish & British, French & British, Germans & Gypsies, etc.). There's also always been a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe: Europe is far more anti-semitic than the US.