It's truly amazing.

[Anansasem]

The way anti-interracial attitudes on this site mirror those of others like stormfront.

While those of you complain about interracial relationships, you should take comfort knowing that WM share AM fears of losing their women. As I said, it's amazing to see the exact same thoughts expressed the exact same way from both. Why are these women who date other 'race' men so stupid? Why do they hate their own 'race' and culture? It's the 'white' media that emasculates us! It's the Jew-washed media that teaches this integrated trash to destroy us! Those damn mongrel niggers! Those damn yellow-fetish whites! They are all race-traitors!

It's the way it sounds, at least you're integrated in the way you shout out against it, hah. Oh, while those here are worried about being white-washed away, the 'whites' are fretting over being 'multicultured' to death. "Preserve our own race seems to be a shared theme," no?

[.:hanbox3r]

Really? I, in all seriousness, never noticed that there were anti-interracial sentiments on this site, I thought this site was meant to promote Asian identity, and what better way to do that then teach other cultures?

[theme]

What chu talkin' bout Willis??!

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/faithless517/dundundunnnnn-9eb.gif

[Vahz]

Heh. If the people on Stormfront were smarter, they'd actually want to promote interracial dating and breed minorities out.

[nightshade]

The way anti-interracial attitudes on this site mirror those of others like stormfront.

While those of you complain about interracial relationships, you should take comfort knowing that WM share AM fears of losing their women. As I said, it's amazing to see the exact same thoughts expressed the exact same way from both. Why are these women who date other 'race' men so stupid? Why do they hate their own 'race' and culture? It's the 'white' media that emasculates us! It's the Jew-washed media that teaches this integrated trash to destroy us! Those damn mongrel niggers! Those damn yellow-fetish whites! They are all race-traitors!

It's the way it sounds, at least you're integrated in the way you shout out against it, hah. Oh, while those here are worried about being white-washed away, the 'whites' are fretting over being 'multicultured' to death. "Preserve our own race seems to be a shared theme," no?

This site is not about being against interracial relationships. It's about being against interracial relationships that have racist beliefs at their core.

[Anansasem]

Hah, theme.

Vahz, maybe though they seem to follow a modified doctrine of the one-drop rule. To them, it probably counts as another check for the 'mongrels' while yet another 'white' line dies out. They seem to have this odd paranoia that the Jew controlled government is using minorities as a weapon to destroy them. It's some of the most bizarre and twisted logic I've ever seen, which is why it unnerved me to see mirror themes on The Fighting 44.

nightshade, I can understand that, though could it be a lesser racism replacing a greater? Doubtless it's not in anyway ideal, though wouldn't it be more progressive for AM to seek interracial relationships as well instead of trying to 'pull' AF out and back to them in a sense? The constant tones I hear on this site amount too "I want to see more Asian only couples, we're being absorbed and destroyed!" It truly sounds segregationist. Really, why not just hold an outlook for dating who ever attracts you regardless of 'race,' instead of holding some racial image for the girl you want? If you think that blond girl Trina over there is out of your reach just because you're Asian, she's going to be.

[nightshade]

nightshade, I can understand that, though could it be a lesser racism replacing a greater? Doubtless it's not in anyway ideal, though wouldn't it be more progressive for AM to seek interracial relationships as well instead of trying to 'pull' AF out and back to them in a sense? The constant tones I hear on this site amount too "I want to see more Asian only couples, we're being absorbed and destroyed!" It truly sounds segregationist. Really, why not just hold an outlook for dating who ever attracts you regardless of 'race,' instead of holding some racial image for the girl you want? If you think that blond girl Trina over there is out of your reach just because you're Asian, she's going to be.

Heh, I'm a girl. I have no desire to date blond girls named Trina. But if I wanted to, a could go on a zillion dates with girls because half my friends are lesbians.

For myself personally, if I have to "spend my life" with someone, I'd like them to be from the same cultural background.

Also I don't think people who are in interracial relationships are any more progressive...in fact, some people in interracial relationships are of the "but some of my best friends are black" school of racism.

[cattygurl]

This has been hashed out like a million times.

You can't compare Stormfront to minority activism. They may share some very general concerns (like wanting to "maintain" their culture) on the surface level, but they're a completely different animal.

[Anansasem]

nightshade, I see segregation as even less progressive. A person born in a homogeneous society is going to see people represented, in a further enhanced way, based on that persons 'racial' image. Does this apply to only those of your ethnic group (Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc.) or does it extent to "Those with your cultural heritage" who are from Cambodia while your from China? In other words, are they 'your group' simply because they're Asian? If you prefer to have a relationship with someone of your own 'racial' (do not attempt to downplay it) group, there's nothing unethical about that in itself. Though, if you try to impress this same principle on all the people of your group, or believe this principle should be the doctrine of your group, then you are racist. I'm not going to be roundabout here. To counter the prevailing theme here of the 'women-stealing-interracial-phenomenon' I see just as many Asians who attempt, and are barred, from interracial relationships on account of other Asians own xenophobic and segregationist attitudes. I'll ask you directly, would you prefer to see AF reverted back into relationships with AM or would you rather see AM emerge in their own right with the dissolution of racial tensions?

Cattygurl, it is not as simple as 'white' and minorities, I never even implied it was in this thread. Asians obviously have just as much aversion to 'blacks' as 'whites' do, in many cases. In turn, 'blacks' have just as much resentment and disrespect for Asians as they do for 'whites.' If an Asian has a problem with IR involving 'whites,' I doubt this view will change much when it involves 'blacks.' I'm speaking about the latent feelings of racial exclusive IR viewpoints, when cynicism builds towards one IR variant how does it change, if at all, when it involves other racial pairs?

[nekohead]

WHAT???
Why would you say that Anansasem??
Asians were not building the USA with Black labor. Whites were.

[Anansasem]

I feel the same aversion and suspicion from Asians, as I do from 'whites.' The fear and obvious awkwardness they have around me is fairly familiar and similar.

Likely, the only reason I didn't build the same resentment to all of them is the influence I had being raised and living with the Hmong. In other words, integration.

[awong]

you are boring me, just leave please

[nightshade]

I'll ask you directly, would you prefer to see AF reverted back into relationships with AM or would you rather see AM emerge in their own right with the dissolution of racial tensions?

I don't understand your question.

My point is, I don't really care who people date. It's their business. But the idea that someone who chooses a significant other who is not of the same ethnicity is more progressive than someone who doesn't is ridiculous. Just because some WM fucks an AF, does not make him more enlightened or not racist.

And why is it that an AM will somehow "emerge in their own right" if he dates a blond girl? I don't get the logic behind this.

[Anansasem]

I don't understand your question.

My point is, I don't really care who people date. It's their business. But the idea that someone who chooses a significant other who is not of the same ethnicity is more progressive than someone who doesn't is ridiculous. Just because some WM fucks an AF, does not make him more enlightened or not racist.
Then we can agree on your first point. Though, what is that ethnicity? Is it simply being Asian regardless of different origins? Let me rephrase, as the term progressive would be relative; it would work towards the dissolution of racism. Interracial relationships dissolve the concept of 'otherness' in peoples perceptions, that the 'races' are pure and intact entities individual of each other. Multiracial children are not a bridge, they are a gate that shows a resonance of commonality among all of us. To cultural or racial essentialist, conservative, and traditional viewpoints, the very idea is seen with fear and enmity. If nothing else it affects a change in racial attitudes and perceptions, it is an 'anomaly' that people cannot avoid or suppress while it forces them to acknowledge issues they would not otherwise.

In response to this, how will you assert that it's not progressive in the sense of affecting change?

And why is it that an AM will somehow "emerge in their own right" if he dates a blond girl? I don't get the logic behind this.
Look at the way I talked about it. I'm saying that if they hold expectations for dating an AF for no other reason then her 'race,' and all that entails, they will limit their own potential and relegate themselves to the underdog nipping at scraps. Whoever or whatever the girl, just go for it. If the girl has to be Asian, then that AM will likely find nothing but bitterness and disappointment, with all the issues to get around. I'm suggesting it as an alternative resolution, if AF are 'selling-out' to 'white' fetishism then why not just look for a girl, any girl, who they can appreciate and feel appreciated for nothing else than their own characteristics?

AM can get any girl if they let themselves work around their own stigma and stubborn expectations. Do you think they approach the dating scene thinking they can attract a girl other than Asian? Really, if they believe they can get a girl, any girl, they will eventually. Do you want to tell me it's harder for them to get a 'white' girl then it is for a seemingly 'black' like me? I've worked through different oppositions and stereotypes, though if I see a girl I want to get to know, I'll try to. Mostly I'll go nowhere, though it's never too long before I find a girl I can interest. I've seen AM do the same, some with more or less success. Though, always with success.

What I meant by 'emerging,' is that the media gives us all stereotypes to work through. So, work through them. Instead of trying to change the entire system with political activism and debate, why not just work to make yourself happy with any girl you can love? Really, it's just an individual approach to their issues and likely to affect change overall.

[DONKEY]

I feel the same aversion and suspicion from Asians, as I do from 'whites.' The fear and obvious awkwardness they have around me is fairly familiar and similar.
why are you bringing this garbage to the forum? how many of us have you personally met? lay your dirty laundry out somewhere else.
should i take this opportunity to talk about every negative experience ive had with blacks? who fuckin cares. get a grip dude. people are probably awkward around you because they feel like theyre being watched. stop gazing.

[Anansasem]

should i take this opportunity to talk about every negative experience ive had with blacks?
YES! Why should we pretend their isn't discrimination between minority groups?

Is it so easy to slam any racial action initiated by 'whites,' yet taboo to mention the racial issues effecting minorities to other minorities? Minority infighting would be awful, though why blanket the tensions instead of exposing them to better understand the situations?

[theme]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/faithless517/dundundunnnnn-9eb.gif

[Scowl]

The constant tones I hear on this site amount too "I want to see more Asian only couples, we're being absorbed and destroyed!" It truly sounds segregationist.

We want to see more Asian-only couples in the media because our representation is completely imbalanced. And really, there have only been a couple of people here who haven't been banned who have expressed concern about being "bred out." A lot of AMs do want to see AMs with white girls to balance it out, but the thing is that, as Asian Americans, we first need to have a healthy self-image before anything else. The rest will follow. It's just like how you need a solid foundation first before you can construct a building.

I honestly don't see where you're getting the stormfront comparison from, especially since all the hardcore crazies got banned a long time ago.

wouldn't it be more progressive for AM to seek interracial relationships as well instead of trying to 'pull' AF out and back to them in a sense?

Its not as simple as interracial good, intraracial bad. The problem isn't the "purity of our blood" getting destroyed, it's the low racial self-esteem of the AA community as a whole. It's one thing to not limit your dating choices by race, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that is progressive. But that is not what's happening. Those of us who want to date out want to date white, and nothing else. We've completely bought into white standards of attractiveness. Not only that, but we grow up learning to be ashamed of being Asian.

Interracial relationships dissolve the concept of 'otherness' in peoples perceptions, that the 'races' are pure and intact entities individual of each other. Multiracial children are not a bridge, they are a gate that shows a resonance of commonality among all of us.

As a kid, I used to think that the increase in IR meant a proportional decrease in racism, but it doesn't work that way. IRs are not intrinsically progressive. They certainly can represent integration, but they can just as easily represent subjugation. In fact, if you look at the history of IR within colonialism, I doubt you will find anything progressive.

The fact is that people in IR are as racist as anyone else, particularly men. As a man, you don't have to respect a woman's culture and heritage in order for you to want to stick your dick in her.

But, let me ask you this: Do you see an Asiancentric forum such as this one as inherently racist?

[kimtae]

Here's to the Anasem is not a dumbass thread. Go ahead, prove yourself right and silence your dissenters by posting some quotes made by the regulars here that could in any way be construed as being like those on Stormfront. Otherwise, shut up and stop being such a tool.

[Anansasem]

Scowl, allow me to thank you for being one to respond constructively.

We want to see more Asian-only couples in the media because our representation is completely imbalanced. And really, there have only been a couple of people here who haven't been banned who have expressed concern about being "bred out." A lot of AMs do want to see AMs with white girls to balance it out, but the thing is that, as Asian Americans, we first need to have a healthy self-image before anything else. The rest will follow. It's just like how you need a solid foundation first before you can construct a building.

I agree with the the media aspect, though the preceding issue I see as more representation for minorities period. Personally, I'm irked by the constant foreigner image attached to Asian Americans.

What I disagree with is the assertion that AM can't date interracially until they first 'change' their image in the media. It almost seems as though they expect no other girls than AF to consider accepting them making the WM/AF IR all the more contentious. I've brought out my point a few posts up. While it may be that they're sapped of esteem, is it really alright to give-in saying "I can't date or enter IR until the media image has changed?"

The media reflects social perceptions, if AM become intrepid enough to start IRs then people talking/blogging/journaling/messaging will affect a change of the representation in the media. Stereotypes aren't completely off in the media, I don't think WM first saw themselves with AF all over the stream before they started IRs with them. If you want to address the issue that AM/AF are the majority of marriages, you'll first have to address the Asian American tendency to avoid placing themselves in the spotlight of controversy. So, first wouldn't you need an Asian American social image? Again, Asian American trends would have to come out to make an impression of this in the media. Basically what I'm saying is that the media reflects them to an extent, if they change so will their image. Through it all, I think the goal should be to encourage AM as individuals to break the bar in approaching IR.

Its not as simple as interracial good, intraracial bad. The problem isn't the "purity of our blood" getting destroyed, it's the low racial self-esteem of the AA community as a whole. It's one thing to not limit your dating choices by race, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that is progressive. But that is not what's happening. Those of us who want to date out want to date white, and nothing else. We've completely bought into white standards of attractiveness. Not only that, but we grow up learning to be ashamed of being Asian.
It is difficult to think of anything in response to that. You've highlighted issues for me that I wasn't able to fully acknowledge before. I think this is one aspect that 'blacks' are leagues ahead of other minorities. They've constantly been blasted the way Malcolm X decried in his speech "Who Taught You To Hate Yourself?" Everything 'good' in America (i.e. Education, Careers, Money, etc.) is attached to the 'white' social image, while everything 'bad' (i.e. Lack of Education, unemployment and poverty, violence, crime and social decay, etc.) is synonymous with 'black.' Even so, they've had decades to fight and assert their own social images, they've accepted the term 'black' that itself is the symbolic antithesis of 'white.' Asian Americans are almost like the third wheel. Even Hispanics, as the largest minority group, still don't oppose 'white' the way 'black' does. Tell me, would you say that Asian Americans, lacking a unifying social image as a 'pillar,' have so much trouble because they experience being left-out in a way?

As a kid, I used to think that the increase in IR meant a proportional decrease in racism, but it doesn't work that way. IRs are not intrinsically progressive. They certainly can represent integration, but they can just as easily represent subjugation. In fact, if you look at the history of IR within colonialism, I doubt you will find anything progressive. Let me rephrase, as the term progressive would be relative; it would work towards the dissolution of racism. Interracial relationships dissolve the concept of 'otherness' in peoples perceptions, that the 'races' are pure and intact entities individual of each other. Multiracial children are not a bridge, they are a gate that shows a resonance of commonality among all of us. To cultural or racial essentialist, conservative, and traditional viewpoints, the very idea is seen with fear and enmity. If nothing else it affects a change in racial attitudes and perceptions, it is an 'anomaly' that people cannot avoid or suppress while it forces them to acknowledge issues they would not otherwise.

But, let me ask you this: Do you see an Asiancentric forum such as this one as inherently racist? I'll admit I'm skeptical of its ability, as of any institution, to avoid becoming exclusively ethnocentric. Even so, I see this site as a positive representation for progress. As for being Asiancentric, I do see it as 'racist' in the sense it focuses more on their own group than any other, though how could they do otherwise? As I'm multiracial, I see it the same way with any site for ethnic discussion. I can't belong to any of them except those with an all prevailing humanitarian outlook, or with issues independent of 'race.'

[nightshade]

Scowl, allow me to thank you for being the first to respond constructively.


Well, I see no point in engaging with you any further.

[Anansasem]

nightshade, sorry I wasn't thinking entirely when I posted that. *changed*

[theme]

I'll admit I'm skeptical of its ability, as of any institution, to avoid becoming exclusively ethnocentric. Even so, I see this site as a positive representation for progress. As for being Asiancentric, I do see it as 'racist' in the sense it focuses more on their own group than any other, though how could they do otherwise? As I'm multiracial, I see it the same way with any site for ethnic discussion. I can't belong to any of them except those with an all prevailing humanitarian outlook, or with issues independent of 'race.'

You heard it from the horse's mouth folks, we're racist because we like to talk about our history and culture. We're not racist per se, just in 'that sense' we are.

LOL.

[Anansasem]

Theme, we both know you're not that ignorant. If you are and I was mistaken, allow me to explain the reasoning there so you may understand.

First of all, reference the definition of quotation marks. Now that you should have basic comprehension of quotations in the context of misnomers, I'll explain. 'Racist' in the sense that The United Negro College Fund, The Asian American Journalists Association, The National Hispanic American Association, or even the NAACP focus more on the issues of one 'race' over others. (Please note the usage of quotations to represent a misnomer) Their titles directly define this, though they could be considered racially exclusive in their focus of one particular ethnic group. A further reference I would suggest, is the meaning of 'the technical sense' in the application of words. I hope I've presented this in enough of an elementary fashion for you to understand.

Theme, the way your most insulting is in your assumption I wouldn't see it as the low aimed petty attempt it was.

[nskripchun]

Originally Posted by Scowl
But, let me ask you this: Do you see an Asiancentric forum such as this one as inherently racist?

I'll admit I'm skeptical of its ability, as of any institution, to avoid becoming exclusively ethnocentric. Even so, I see this site as a positive representation for progress. As for being Asiancentric, I do see it as 'racist' in the sense it focuses more on their own group than any other, though how could they do otherwise? As I'm multiracial, I see it the same way with any site for ethnic discussion. I can't belong to any of them except those with an all prevailing humanitarian outlook, or with issues independent of 'race.'

So is that a "yes" or a "no"?

If you can't understand the difference between this kind of forum and StormFront, or even the necessity of a forum where people of Asian ancestry focus on discussing issues related to being Asian, you're gonna continue rubbing people the wrong way. The assumption that every person here is "racist" simply because they're Asian people discussing Asian issues in an Asian forum is a pretty poor way to begin any sort of conversation.

[theme]

Theme, we both know you're not that ignorant. If you are and I was mistaken, allow me to explain the reasoning there so you may understand.

First of all, reference the definition of quotation marks. Now that you should have basic comprehension of quotations in the context of misnomers, I'll explain. 'Racist' in the sense that the Midwest African American Association, United Negro College Fund, African Americans For Higher Education, or even the NAACP focus more on the issues of 'blacks' than other 'races.' Their titles directly define this, though they could be considered racially exclusive in their focus of one particular ethnic group. A further reference I would suggest, is the meaning of 'the technical sense' in the application of words. I hope I've presented this in enough of an elementary fashion for you to understand.

Theme, the way your most insulting is in your assumption I wouldn't see it as the low aimed petty attempt it was.

Scowl asked you if you knew of any Asiancentric sites like this one that was inherently racist (without quotations marks). You said that F44 was 'racist' in the sense that it focused on one race. The point is you're using 'racist' in a redundant way when 'Asiancentric' would have done the job. But by calling us 'racist' you're detaching Asiancentric from it's neutral standpoint and attaching it to a negative one. But NVM, I don't really think you know what you're talking about for the most part anyway.

EDIT: And after looking at the story behind the NAACP I think you've got that wrong as well. NAACP stands for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. The organization was started by several blacks and jews with the idea of fighting for equal rights not just for blacks but for anyone who wasn't white. If it seems like they only focused on black issues that is because ever since it's inception blacks were the ones who had the least going for them.

[Anansasem]

nskripchun, I appreciate your lack of 'ad hominem.'

Do I consider this site racist; no. I apologize for the tone in which I began the thread, though I had no intent to imply a deeper similarity. I was using ironic representation to make a statement against what I initially perceived as anti-interracial attitudes. The discussion, the one on topic, has moved beyond that where I'm beginning to acquire a deeper understanding of the IR issues here. The last vein of the topic was between Scowl and myself, I'd appreciate it if you responded to the points there, as well.

Theme, outstanding. By all means, put me on ignore and leave.

[theme]

Done and done.

[JadeDragon]

If you can't understand the difference between this kind of forum and StormFront, or even the necessity of a forum where people of Asian ancestry focus on discussing issues related to being Asian, you're gonna continue rubbing people the wrong way. The assumption that every person here is "racist" simply because they're Asian people discussing Asian issues in an Asian forum is a pretty poor way to begin any sort of conversation.

Seconded.

Really, Anansasem, we understand that you have issues about self-identity and being multi-racial, but from reading your posts, there is this aura of "I'm so special, why won't you acknowledge this?" We do welcome folks who bring up non-Asian-related discussions too, but when the general vibe of your every post is "Asians are just as oppressive, look how you're marginalising ME when I'm so UNIQUE", well, no one's going to respond constructively anyway.

Do you talk like this to people in real life?

Edited to add: Can you lose the "I was just being ironic" excuse when you want to back-pedal after being called out? That's not real irony; it's like Alanis Morrisette saying "rain on your wedding day" is ironic. It's just inane.

[nightshade]

Anansasem, I think you're sincere in trying to understand the issues, so I'm trying to be patient with you. But I think the fact that you use a combatative tone at times isn't making it appealing for many people to want to debate, especially when it feels like you're in attack mode.

To be multiracial doesn't mean that you're excluded from claiming Asian as part of your identity. I'm not trying to tell you that you have to claim it, but I'm trying to say that by claiming it you're in no way privileging it over other ethnicities.

We're not here to say that Asians are better than non-Asians. Think of what we're about as being multicultural rather than melting pot. Everyone is entitled to their own sense of identity.

We're Asiancentric because this is the viewpoint that we're been dealt. We work with it. We question it. We celebrate it. We try to avoid the self-hate that North American culture has tried to instill in us. Having self-respect and a little pride doesn't have to be at someone else's expense.

[howstrange]

Anansasem, I think you're sincere in trying to understand the issues. But I think the fact that you use a combatative tone at times isn't making it appealing for many people to want to debate, especially when it feels like you're in attack mode.



Agree. I am actually pleased that, unlike 99% people who start threads like this, Anansasem is actually willing to have his POV changed or broadened. Unfortunately his boorish personality isn't winning him any friends.

..and as usual, Scowl is right on the money.

[Anansasem]

I don't know what I could say in response to all of this. Maybe I should just cool-it here for a while, lurk, and learn by observing more.

[atlasien]

I skipped over half this thread but I can guess what this is about :rolleyes:

This forum has a fair amount of sexist B.S. and double standards, but it's no worse than 90% of other internet communities in that regards.

My perspective is of course being half-white and married to a white guy. I also have a lot of very strong ideas on the construction of race and whiteness. The way that interracial sex is viewed in America is deeply racist. It is also deeply damaging to Asians as a whole, men and women. Asian women are treated as fetishized sex accessories for white men, and this is something that has affected me negatively and pissed me off for all my adult life.

I don't believe my husband deserves a cookie for marrying me, or vice versa. Some people might think our relationship is "progressive", other people might think I'm a sell-out, but I am really not concerned with their opinions on the matter. Similarly, it is not fair for multiracial people to be "bridges" or "gates". I had enough pressure growing up without having to take on a full-time unpaid job as a cultural ambassador. What on earth is wrong with being a normal human being. Anyone, multiracial or not, should have the same moral obligation to work for social justice.

Here are some good links on these subjects:


It’s About Interracial Sex Folks (http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=599)

To Be a Lost Child (http://www.antiracistparent.com/2007/03/02/to-be-a-lost-child/)

Bridges (http://ethnicallyincorrect.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/bridges/)

[Scowl]

I agree with the the media aspect, though the preceding issue I see as more representation for minorities period. Personally, I'm irked by the constant foreigner image attached to Asian Americans.

More representation, yes, but also better representation. If the increased media representation is all negative portrayals, then it doesn't help. As for the perpetual foreigner stereotype, that one actually holds the most truth out of all of them; the fact is that at least half of the AA population has always been 1st generation immigrants. While the fact that the other half tends to be ignored is an issue, I think the bigger problem lies in the perception of immigrants as lesser and inferior, which leads to much of the self-hate that exists among AAs.

Basically what I'm saying is that the negative connotations associated with immigrants is much worse than the perpetual foreigner stereotype itself.

What I disagree with is the assertion that AM can't date interracially until they first 'change' their image in the media.... While it may be that they're sapped of esteem, is it really alright to give-in saying "I can't date or enter IR until the media image has changed?"

No, of course not. What I'm saying is that IR dating is a low priority for AAMs. Raising racial self-esteem is much more important for Asian Americans as a whole. When AAMs are more confident in who they are, success in dating and IR will naturally follow. Sure, making us look good for the ladies is nice, but the IR disparity and emasculation of AMs are symptoms, not the disease.

The media reflects social perceptions, if AM become intrepid enough to start IRs then people talking/blogging/journaling/messaging will affect a change of the representation in the media.... Basically what I'm saying is that the media reflects them to an extent, if they change so will their image. Through it all, I think the goal should be to encourage AM as individuals to break the bar in approaching IR.

There's no reason why AAMs can't be in IRs now. However, I think increased IR for AAMs would have a minimal effect at best on media representation, because American media seldom reflects reality. It will have slightly more effect on society's perceptions, but only slightly more because we are such a small percentage of the population. Again, I think it goes back to racial self-esteem. It's not that AAMs need to be encouraged to go for IR, it's that we need to stop believing what American society says about us.

Although there is also a cultural component in extending the family bloodline, I've personally seen far less of that than the guys thinking that we're fucked because we're Asian.

If you want to address the issue that AM/AF are the majority of marriages, you'll first have to address the Asian American tendency to avoid placing themselves in the spotlight of controversy. So, first wouldn't you need an Asian American social image? Again, Asian American trends would have to come out to make an impression of this in the media.

This is a whole different can of worms that could take a lifetime to discuss. In short, you may already know this, but the idea of "Asians" as a single, monolithic entity is one that only non-Asians have. Honestly, right now we need a whole lot of things. You have to consider that those of us who are racially aware, or fuck, even trying to be, comprise such a tiny percentage of the AA population.

Tell me, would you say that Asian Americans, lacking a unifying social image as a 'pillar,' have so much trouble because they experience being left-out in a way?

It's not that we're left out, and it's not even that we don't want to join in. It's that there is no "us" except in the broadest, most general sense. We still divide ourselves by ethnicity, by nationality, by FOB vs. Banana. The older generation doesn't want to rock the boat, because they've been through famine, war, and all sorts of upheaval and they know exactly how good we have it here. They don't understand institutionalized racism because they come from societies where they were either the ethnic majority, or they've dealt with being the minority the same way and prospered for it for hundreds of years. The younger generation take what we have for granted, and so we have the luxury of wanting more. But we don't know what the fuck we're doing because we're trying to do things the white way, the black way, the native Asian way, and any which way except one that was created by us to suit our particular needs.

Anyway, I've got to get to work, but hopefully I'll be able to get to your last point and elaborate on a few others later on.

[tkguy]

It occurred to me that hapa people have an incentive to encourage interracial relationships because if they don't there will be fewer hapas for them to relate to. They could careless about fetishes and identity issues that could be the foundation of an inevitable train wreck of a relationship. They just want more hapa people to grow their numbers. It's probably a survival tactic.

What concerns me is that some do this conciously in a very subtle underhanded way with no concern as to how this might affect the asian community or any other communities.

No, I don't think Anansasem is doing anything conciously. But his attitude is objectifying the asian race.

[DONKEY]

It occurred to me that hapa people have an incentive to encourage interracial relationships because if they don't there will be fewer hapas for them to relate to. They could careless about fetishes and identity issues that could be the foundation of an inevitable train wreck of a relationship. They just want more hapa people to grow their numbers. It's probably a survival tactic.

What concerns me is that some do this conciously in a very subtle underhanded way with no concern as to how this might affect the asian community or any other communities.

i think youre wrong. theres several forum members who are mixed and have done no such thing, myself included.
actually the main reason mixed people dont condemn interracial relationships is because almost any relationship a mixed person has is going to be an interracial relationship by default. there is a VERY slim chance that they hook up with another mixed person unless they live in Hawai'i. there is no avoiding it unless they want to avoid relationships altogether.

[cattygurl]

It occurred to me that hapa people have an incentive to encourage interracial relationships because if they don't there will be fewer hapas for them to relate to. They could careless about fetishes and identity issues that could be the foundation of an inevitable train wreck of a relationship.

This isn't some "hapa" trademark, and if you think it is, it's not, and i'm miffed that you put things in that light. I'd venture to say most people, regardless of race, could care less about of a lot of objectification/gender/racial/identity/etc issues that are the foundation of a train wreck of a relationship.

It's not like interracial marriages have the market on failed relationships and marriages.

[DONKEY]

YES! Why should we pretend their isn't discrimination between minority groups?

Is it so easy to slam any racial action initiated by 'whites,' yet taboo to mention the racial issues effecting minorities to other minorities? Minority infighting would be awful, though why blanket the tensions instead of exposing them to better understand the situations?
uhh actually it's not taboo and FoxNews has already been there and done that. not only FoxNews though...
where were you in 92? in the news stories of the LA riots it was all about black vs. yellow vs. brown and the only part whites had in it was the cops who stood by and watched.
i see these stories all the time. white people love to bring them up because its proof to them that minorities "cant get along" and racial problems really have nothing to do with white supremacy.
there is no such thing as minority "infighting" because that implies that minorities are a single cohesive group which has never been true.

most of my negative experiences with people i attribute to a personality conflict or conflict of beliefs. once in a while there is a situation where i think somebody is a fucked up racist but ive already learned how to minimize their effect on my life. sometimes there are other minorities who have bad attitudes towards Asians which come from racist beliefs; (example: a dude who comes on to an Asian forum and assumes that every guy on the forum is in need of his shitty dating advice). however these people rarely have any power to cause real problems for us and i mainly consider them an annoyance of little or not consequence.

[atlasien]

You must have us confused with vampires. I went ahead and made the correction.

It occurred to me that vampires have an incentive to encourage vampire relationships because if they don't there will be fewer vampires for them to relate to. They could careless about gruesome deaths and blood loss issues that could be the foundation of an inevitable train wreck of a relationship. They just want more vampire people to grow their numbers. It's probably a survival tactic.

What concerns me is that some do this conciously in a very subtle underhanded way with no concern as to how this might affect the asian community or any other communities.

[tkguy]

i think youre wrong. theres several forum members who are mixed and have done no such thing, myself included.
actually the main reason mixed people dont condemn interracial relationships is because almost any relationship a mixed person has is going to be an interracial relationship by default. there is a VERY slim chance that they hook up with another mixed person unless they live in Hawai'i. there is no avoiding it unless they want to avoid relationships altogether.

First off I am responding to Anansasem's rant against non-interacial asians focusing on other non-interracial asians pursuing mates who are not asians. I assume that these non-asians are NOT HAPAS but non-interracial non-asians. If he meant hapas too, then he needs to make that clear. he needs to stop grouping hapas with non-asians cause they are not non-asians. The difference may seem subtle but it changes the meaning of everything. Then again I have the notion that hapas are asians which may not be the widely accepted notion amongst aa.

as for what I wrote, well I don't think anybody on this board is promoting it. I've never met a hapa person who promoted such ideals but I have run accross this ideal on the internet and it obviously concerns me. Just like there are non-interracial asians who will take advantage of my race, there are hapas who will do the same.

[theme]

as for what I wrote, well I don't think anybody on this board is promoting it. I've never met a hapa person who promoted such ideals but I have run accross this ideal on the internet and it obviously concerns me. Just like there are non-interracial asians who will take advantage of my race, there are hapas who will do the same.

I might be adding fuel to the fire but I can agree with that. I was on 2 hapa forums for more than a year and participated just as I have participated on F44 and from my experiences I hold Hapas in a less than favorable light. I know lines will be drawn when it comes to judging a whole group of people but in general, I find hapas to have an agenda that goes against the social ideals of AAs.

The funny thing is just like the AA community, there's also very distinct gender personalities devoloping in the hapa community. Hapa women are hell bent on dating whites as much as possible-going so far as to make themselves believe that Asian guys have a fetish for Hapa girls-while the guys will date anyone.

Just to add on to what Anansasem said about Hapa children being some kind of bridge or symbol of integration-I would love for that to be true but if it weren't for my long and many experiences dealing with hapas I just don't see that happening. I'm very sorry to say that isn't the case because before I became a member of their forums I was mostly expecting a group that was not only socially aware but more actively productive as socially aware beings but that just isn't the case.

As a caveat I don't mean that all Hapas are like that. I've met a few Hapas who aren't like that, all being male for some reason, but the general direction of the hapa community is going in the opposite direction of ours.

[DONKEY]

i do not totally disagree with that but i think its a mistake to say there is a hapa community or that they have any agenda one way or another. its such a scattered and non-cohesive bunch of people.
ive never found it very rewarding to visit forums for mixed race Asians. too much of the conversation focuses on appearance. plus so few of them have an Asian father so i think that makes it hard for me to relate.
hapas i meet in real life are usually the product of a military father and his Asian wife and ive had the reverse experience with them. i think the females are more sympathetic towards AA issues maybe because their identity is built as an Asian woman from the example of their mother. i have found the males to be usually lacking any awareness or concern for AA issues at all and were dismissive towards me if i brought it up because "that's all whiny fag talk", their ideal of masculinity comes from their non-Asian father (if they have a father) and they equate "Asian" with "female" because of their mother's subordinate relationship with either the father or the society which generally considers Asian women subordinate

[theme]

You know it could be that certain types of hapa girls were flocking to the site and that has skewered my perceptions. I won't dismiss that possibility. But when you come in contact with so many hapas(probably close to 100) over the course of one year, all sharing the same monolithic bullshit ideology you can't help but draw conclusions.

The main point is that I don't think hapas are in any way shape or form a support for racial integration. I don't want to say what I think they are, but I'm in total disagreement with Anansasem's assessment of them in an earlier post.

Edit: I'm sorry if you or Anansasem are offended by what I wrote, seeing as how you're both multiracial, but I have very strong feelings about the hapa community brought on by the experiences that I've had. I don't think either you or Anansasem are like the hapas I've mentioned but that doesn't mean that there isn't a prevailing ideology that is not unlike the ones which AAs are fighting against.

[cattygurl]

prevailing ideology that is not unlike the ones which AAs are fighting against.

I'm just curious- because the AA community can be pretty fragmented. What are we fighting against that is so, so different from hapas in your perception?

God forbid you judge an entire group of ppl by your interactions with them on the... internet. That sounds kooky to me. I mean really Theme- would you go to Stormfront? Even bother posting there? If you've answered no- that's because you're like most people in that people don't post in places when they can't relate to the posters. Boards have dynamics. People generally don't stick around in boards that have very different values. Most go to another board that's more along what they're thinking and feeling. Take the f44s, MM and Yelloworld. They're completely different boards, and you'll get a completely different impression based on each board. Chances are, you're going to find that board members tend to often echo each other. So, if you're basing your ideas of hapas on being on an internet board... especially just one or two... Oooph. I feel bad for you.

[atlasien]

Skipping neatly over any predictable theme-based idiocy...

I've had no consistent experience at all with other hapas. We really have nothing in common other than a few superficial things and one very deep thing (racial/cultural identity). "Military dad" hapas probably have some things in common, but I have never been involved in military base environments so I wouldn't know.

People who think "interracial sex and multiracial kids will destroy racial categories and fix the world" are simply naive. They people who hold this naive belief are spread across all demographics. There are white people who believe that as well. The solution is to either do some research into the history of race or else just visit Latin America. Racial caste systems can coexist quite happily with interracial sex.

I think interracial relationships often, but not always, correlate with greater communication and integration between races. Different kinds of people feel free to talk to each other and enter into relationships with each other. Earlier in the 20th century America, you could be tortured then killed for even appearing to have an interracial relationship. We have obviously made progress since then. However, correlation does not equal causation. Real integration is not just about sex and reproduction, it also involves respect for diversity.

[theme]

I'm just curious- because the AA community can be pretty fragmented. What are we fighting against that is so, so different from hapas in your perception?

We're fighting against the idea that being Asian is a negative thing. When you stick around a hapa forum long enough you realize that hapas don't necessarily see it that way. They won't come right out and say it of course but it usually manifests in the form of polls such as "What race have you dated more", "Which race do you look like most?", "Do you have double eye lids?", "Which race do you prefer to date", etc etc. Some of the things I've heard are:

"I don't date Asian guys because they have a fetish for hapa girls and treat us as objects. They're physically and mentally disgusting(That's an actual quote)so that is why I only date whites."

"I really love Vietnamese culture, I love Vietnamese people, I'm not discriminatory but I really dislike Asian men. Vietnamese especially"-This is coming from a girl who is now dating a disabled guy. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but because it is this person it makes it seem like being Asian/Vietnamese is even worse than being disabled. There is no redemption for Asian guys it seems but disabled? Sure, as long as you have a nice personality and white.

"I don't date Asian guys because I don't want my friends to ask "Why am I dating an Asian guy?"

"I'm half Korean but I don't think my parents would believe me if I told them I was dating a Korean guy."

That's just a tiny tiny example of the type of mentality that is prevalent on hapa forums. Anyone who disagrees with me is welcome to check out hapa forums and find out for themselves what it's like.


God forbid you judge an entire group of ppl by your interactions with them on the... internet. That sounds kooky to me. I mean really Theme- would you go to Stormfront? Even bother posting there? If you've answered no- that's because you're like most people in that people don't post in places when they can't relate to the posters.


So...anyone forming an opinion about the people on Stormfront are likely to be wrong because it is the internet?


Boards have dynamics. People generally don't stick around in boards that have very different values. Most go to another board that's more along what they're thinking and feeling. Take the f44s, MM and Yelloworld. They're completely different boards, and you'll get a completely different impression based on each board. Chances are, you're going to find that board members tend to often echo each other. So, if you're basing your ideas of hapas on being on an internet board... especially just one or two... Oooph. I feel bad for you.

I don't think F44 is completely different from Yellowworld. They are more similar to each other than they are to the other Asian boards out there. Much more similar.

But listen to what you're saying. If you can get an impression of a forum based on the members, how is that different from me and my opinion about the hapa forum? And it wasn't one forum, but two forums. Both of which have way way more activitity in a day than F44 on the weekend including a much larger roster and more expansive geographic location of members. And because of this, one can probably get a more accurate opinion on the hapa forum than F44.

I don't want to hijack this thread any further and turn it into a hapa bashing thread. If that is what you think it is that is fine. I'm not anti-hapa or anything like that but my experiences have taught me a great deal about people. I couldn't believe what hapas were like until I joined their forums and learned the sort of opinions they had of Asians. Needless to say that has really soured some of my interactions with Hapas in real life as well. I'll end this discussion right here now because off-topic. I only wanted to explain that Anansasem's perceptions of hapas are not as he thinks they are.

[jook]

I think it is important to remember that we must always endeavor to love those who may not love you back. It is a deep seated spiritual problem perhaps caused by a void of proper values by a neglect caused by our famous, ongoing obssession for materialistic success, to the detriment of most everything else. That void, instead, is being filled by popular culture. It a point of concern for new generations of aware and concerned parents, teachers, counsellors, leaders within the community.

The fact that many Asian-American girls prefer not to date Asian-American guys for whatever reasons has caused a great deal of personal hurt to me, but I remain thankful. It has compelled me over the years to examine myself closely, to heed the complaints, and to scrutinize my attitudes toward Asian-American women, or women in general, and to learn to respect them as I ought. I am by no means perfect, deeply flawed, and its an ongoing process. But I have no control over how other may view or treat me, but I do have complete control over my own inner attitudes and how I treat people in return. The scriptures make it perfectly clear that we ought to spend more time and effort fixing ourselves first rather than worry about what the world does to us.

When someone slaps you, you turn the other cheek. I am utterly convinced that is the only way we may overcome the divide.

[cattygurl]

This is the last time I'm going to drag out this topic.

So...anyone forming an opinion about the people on Stormfront are likely to be wrong because it is the internet?

You can form an opinion on people on the board there, but it shouldn't be used to form an opinion of white people as a group.

Two forums! Two! Egads.

It also sounds like the forum members of the forums you frequented were... young. At least they sound it. First, god forbid people judge the entire group on what ppl in their teens and early 20's say. Not to say that you get smarter with age, but most people to learn something as they mature.

Again, the fact that those polls are frequent and people feel comfortable saying what they did shows you more about the dynamics of the board- rather than the comments being representative of an entire group of people. Again, let me reiterate- an internet board will attract like-minded people. A bulletin board is mostly for like minded people to get together and discuss things. A bulletin board, by the sheer dynamics of its function, can only represent their members. Of course you can develop an opinion on the specific members of both hapa boards, but it's assinine for you to bring that opinion and apply it to hapas in general.

Geeze, a sociology student would get laughed out of class if she wanted to draw a macro-level conclusion (which is what you're doing) on a group of people based on bulletin boards, much less just 2 of them, both with a similar dynamic.

Take this board. We have people from ALL OVER the US and the world. That said, it *would* be unfair for anyone to make a judgement call about Asian-Americans as a group after visiting this board.

Seriously, what would be your reaction to some non-asian telling you, "oh I frequented 2 Asian boards and now, I can judge your entire group based on what I read there!" I would hope you would call them out on their dumbassery, just like you would recognize your own.

[theme]

This is the last time I'm going to drag out this topic.

You can form an opinion on people on the board there, but it shouldn't be used to form an opinion of white people as a group.

Two forums! Two! Egads.

It also sounds like the forum members of the forums you frequented were... young. At least they sound it. First, god forbid people judge the entire group on what ppl in their teens and early 20's say. Not to say that you get smarter with age, but most people to learn something as they mature.



When can we start to judge people by what they say? If not in their early twenties, middle twenties? Late twenties? Early thirties? You are making an assumption that because they're not as old as you are that they are stupid or that they'll change with time. I'm not making such assumptions. All I'm saying is that these people, who aren't even that young in the first place, have these types of views and probably are not likely to change. God forbid we hold people responsible for what they say.


Again, the fact that those polls are frequent and people feel comfortable saying what they did shows you more about the dynamics of the board- rather than the comments being representative of an entire group of people. Again, let me reiterate- an internet board will attract like-minded people. A bulletin board is mostly for like minded people to get together and discuss things. A bulletin board, by the sheer dynamics of its function, can only represent their members. Of course you can develop an opinion on the specific members of both hapa boards, but it's assinine for you to bring that opinion and apply it to hapas in general.


The hapa forum(s) that I visited had a vibe I felt that was derogatory to Asians and Asian men specifically. In fact, it seems like any hapa member who looked predominantly Asian(and male)felt the exact same way. The ones who didn't feel that way were either more mixed OR they were female. The Asian looking hapa females didn't feel the same way as their male counterparts-And that is the point I'm trying to make. I can't make it any more clear than that.

I will give you one thing and that is that the forum doesn't represent hapas everywhere. Of course it doesn't. How can it? That isn't arguable. If that is the backbone of your whole thesis then fine. I'll say it:

Not all Hapas have negative perceptions of Asian men.

But what I can say is this:

The majority of hapas, whom I met on a very popular Hapa site, with a very extensive membership, seem to express very negative opinions about Asian men. In fact, I cannot say that they are any better or worse than the subtlest racists out there with the only difference being that they know how to use chopsticks. That's their gimmick.



Geeze, a sociology student would get laughed out of class if she wanted to draw a macro-level conclusion (which is what you're doing) on a group of people based on bulletin boards, much less just 2 of them, both with a similar dynamic.

I'm not a sociology student but I'm not an idiot either. I know what certain forums are like based on what the content is. If you think I'm unfairly judging a group of people, that is your opinion. But I'm willing to bet that sociology/psychology surveys have been published with similar evidence or even less.

And keep in mind one more thing. I went into those forums with a completely clean slate. I didn't have any preconcieved notions about who they are except that maybe because they are mixed that they have a balanced perception of racial politics in America. When I left those forums all that I took with me was an imprint of what Hapas are like. I went from a clean slate to one with a completely negative opinion of Hapas.


Take this board. We have people from ALL OVER the US and the world. That said, it *would* be unfair for anyone to make a judgement call about Asian-Americans as a group after visiting this board.

Seriously, what would be your reaction to some non-asian telling you, "oh I frequented 2 Asian boards and now, I can judge your entire group based on what I read there!" I would hope you would call them out on their dumbassery, just like you would recognize your own.

It depends on whether I agree with what they're saying or not. I've been on Asian forums where white and blacks guys made sweeping statements about Asian men and women and I just had to agree because I felt that it was true. Or rather in general it was true. My reception to other's opinions are not based on who they are but what they are saying.

[Heyyu]

My 2 cents: This is not really about Asians dating others. It's more of a problem that Asians date and worship whites FAR greater than they do blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, Aboriginals, Maori, Polynesians, Arabs or South Asians.

I mean, I'm all for inter-racial love but for Asians it is SO one-sided towards whites it's not even funny. Granted, there's a small minority of Asian women that date only blacks or Latinos and you got Asians complaining about that too. But I don't think Asian females should ONLY date Asians. A person is free to love whomever they want.

But I do have a problem when many of them REFUSE to date Asians and ONLY date whites (for the stereotypes and reasons listed before on this forum). Many Asians with Whites claim they are "color blind." That's bullshit. Many of them would refuse to date anyone other than whites. It's whites ONLY, which is a big big problem since that simply perpetuates the ongoing racism in a very perverse way.

[Vahz]

Theme, what hapa boards are you talking about?

[Seraph]

Eurasiannation.com for one has many EA posters and mods who seem obsessed with race. Just look at the subject of the most popular threads.

I remember one discussion revolved around discussing what traits you got from each parent. Your body: typically Asian or European? (http://eurasiannation.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=family&action=display&thread=1141424375&page=1) You can guess how many racial stereotypes came out. It got so bad, that I later posted that if the Asian mother was 6ft and the white father was 5 ft, these EAs would still blame their shortness on their Asian side.

And this was the mod's response:
"We have understood that certain members think this whole thread is racist but that is not the point of this thread and I don't see anything really harmful about it, so please end the discussion."


P.S. There were a few very self aware EAs on the board. But they left in disgust. It's ironic because the founder of the site is Carmen Van Kerckhove. A poster told me she have basically felt she couldn't control the forums anymore which is a shame because so many of the posters there would benefit from listening to Carmen.

[lopan]

I remember one discussion revolved around discussing what traits you got from each parent. Your body: typically Asian or European? (http://eurasiannation.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=family&action=display&thread=1141424375&page=1) You can guess how many racial stereotypes came out. It got so bad, that I later posted that if the Asian mother was 6ft and the white father was 5 ft, these EAs would still blame their shortness on their Asian side.
I just read a few of those posts and now my head hurts. Glad that idiocy is there and not here... :rolleyes:

[Vahz]

haha, yea.

I went to those forums and it's just as bad if not worse than the MM boards. I've never realized how so many EurAsians had such a large superiority complex. That discussion reminds me of the Nazi regime's eugenics program.

[Dialectic]

Wow I only just noticed this thread now.

I have no idea how the discussion went and the way things worked out but I feel like making a few statements anyway.

Anansasem, threads like this are the reason why no one takes you seriously. You sound like you're one step away from equating Bush with Hitler or making anti-meat ads about chicken holocausts.

Stormfront is a white supremacist racist site.

We are a site that explores Asian-American identity, culture, and politics, as well as race-based pathologies in wider society.

Your inability to detect both subtle AND gross statements and themes, in COMBINATION with your incessant attempts to act and sound mature are indicative of a distinct lack of maturity and intellectual sophistication. You can get there, but you have to do so with an open and discerning heart/mind, not one that swallows cultural cliches about total equality that don't appreciate subtle context.

Interracial true-love relationships are fine. They are a happy and beautiful thing. No one who ever spoke for 44, and no respected long-time member, says otherwise. We are talking about a social illness which causes one particular type and combination of interracial relationship which is based on colonialism and privilege, which manifests at an unusually high rate in our population, and which is a very different thing.

I don't want to have to keep hammering obvious points home to you over and over. Learn to use your head.

[Anansasem]

Dialectic, my opening post was nothing more than impulsive venting after making a low-minded supposition. I'm young, my mindset fluctuates, I don't have the acquired maturity of you or the majority of other forum members here. I'm erratic, going from angry and pessimistic to self-righteously optimistic. What 18 year old doesn't in a way? I know Ike, Vetrean, and a few others are the same age without becoming a nuisance, though they also have a more defined sense of themselves than I do. I'm not making excuses, it's just the fragmented mindset I'm in. I'm sure you can appreciate different stages of development. I am immature, I can't deny it. Even so, I can see and understand the significance of most concepts when I'm focused.

The message I truly believe, and should have stated here a while ago, is represented in these passages from others caught in a 'racial' rift:
Biracial: Thinking, feeling, whole human-beings
By Ronald E. Hall, Ph.D.

In America, my appearance manages to wedge itself between who I am and who I am perceived to be. My investments in identity -- I assumed -- would eventually bring about a change whereby the walls of prejudice, like the walls of Jericho would come all but tumbling down around me. In the aftermath my soul would be rescued much like the stillness that follows a violent quake. All that had once confused and erroneously categorized me would regain perspective. The demons rushed from my soul would lay bare the insignificance of race and color freeing me to be what God had intended -- a thinking, feeling, whole human being. But that did not happen. Freedom of any sort does not come without a price. Carried with it -- in my experience -- is the revelation of why racial characteristics devour so much of the American soul. It shields the graver questions that cut to the heart of the American conscience. It is precisely a question of more value in who I am and less in who I appear to be. And in my journey from childhood to adulthood I have concluded that the connection between Americans of whatever hue, is the destiny invested in the possibility of an unadulterated all encompassing existence.

To escape adulteration, on the shores of this majestic terrain was founded the most ethnically and racially diverse nation the world has yet known. I can think of no other sovereignty, past or present, that can boast our numbers of so-called Negroid, Caucasoid, or Mongoloid groups in one geographic space. The fact that we have managed not only to survive but also to excel technologically in spite of our differences is a credit to the spirit of human endeavor. Unfortunately, that distinction has failed to enhance our quality of life. It has made us no less intolerant of the sufferings borne by those otherwise blessed with duality of heritage. In a curious twist of fate, more than anything else, it has enabled the relentless beast we call prejudice. It remains a tenacious threat because we can face in others only that which we can face in ourselves. Our unwillingness to confront the perils has unfurled about this entire nation a veil of uncertainty. Blinded by its obstruction, an identity suspended between black and white is cast in profanity. The resulting myopia extends from a very arcane concept of identity that threatens the myth of race some of us cling to so desperately.

From the womb of race mythology is born our cultural rhetoric. Rhetoric is the salve that soothes the sting of forced labels. Jaded by the inevitable conflict between who we are and who society forces us to be helps sustain the burden. After all, few are ignorant of the unspoken but profound assumptions that live in unfamiliar stares. They fashion the fishhooks and barbed wire that define the identities of some at the expense of others. It bestows validity upon the 'melting pot' sustaining the illusion that no matter what your creed or color, you may come here, work hard, and go as far as your talents will take you. It is what we romantically refer to as the American dream. For some that dream has become a reality. For those tainted by the nothingness cast upon biracial identity, the experience has been no less short of a nightmare. Thus, we who are born by mergence, in realizing the American dream have encountered an affront to our humanity. We struggle daily with the antagonisms of conventional identity from all corners of society risking caricature and ridicule for the future of our loved ones. In the end it all seems for naught. That racist monster we thought we had slain in the sixties has proven itself more virile than ever in the consequences. Hence, nearing the turn of the century we find America still wrestling with the ability of race to divide or taint.

I believe that the problem for any biracial American who allow themselves to be categorized by external influences will always be that he/she may ultimately make errors of judgment, which racial monoids would not. When that interpretation reaches widespread acceptance we run the risk of doing psychological damage to ourselves. In the grist of self worth I have determined dignity and respect take precedent. The solution for me lies in maintaining openness and a willingness to confront new ideas. Furthermore, those of us stained by the assumptions of black vs. white indulge in an extremely dangerous luxury. We seem to feel that because we are most often the victims of ridicule we have earned the right to be accepted by whomever willing. Some of us take no responsibility for the designation of self-identity.

Such notions beget the wine of ignorance. It is not possible for anyone who has not tasted resentment to know its bitterness. I am privy to those of an indefinite hue who prefer the company of same to escape the painful guessing games. Those games have sent many of us to our graves. Thus, it is much better to claim biracial than not simply because it may be threatening or misinterpreted. In the final analysis, men of whatever race cannot deny the dignity and humanity in another without diminishing some measure of their own. For in the image of one's victim is the reflection of one's self. Peer into the various faces of race to see what we've become. Believing that, it is my sincerest hope that those who define themselves as biracial can circumvent stereotypes or misinterpretations. They should be accepted instead as thinking, feeling, whole human-beings!Declaration of Racial Independence
By Nathan Douglas

People are not black, white, yellow, or red. With the exception of albinos, whom any so-called race can procreate, we are all some shade of brown due to the skin pigment, melanin.

The popular racial terms "black" and "white" are blatant misnomers which are divisive. They have evolved to symbolize the erroneous belief that these two arbitrary groups are natural adversaries or polar opposites. Using the terms "black" and "white" oversimplifies race and is detrimental.

Further, the world cannot be divided truthfully into "whites" and "people of color" because every so-called race has color in varying degrees. This dark-to-light or light-to-dark variance can be explained by natural selection and/or racial interbreeding.

It is important that people of goodwill and clear conscience declare themselves independent of all false-but-prevailing racial thought. Therefore, we offer the following as additional truths worthy of consideration and support.

1. Race is a subjective biological construct which is an inaccurate predictor of capabilities or attitudes.

2. People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, regardless of their alleged race.

3. Original intent notwithstanding, any government classifying its citizenry by race perpetuates racism.

4. The "One Drop Rule," which declares everyone with any "black" blood to be a member of the "black" race, is a myth which could be equally misapplied in other racial directions. "One Drop" is false and devoid of merit.

5. Racial pride bestows worth based upon race. Real worth stems from individual achievement, as well as the love of family and friends.

6. Racial loyalties are a threat to human rights. Socially responsible allegiances must transcend racial categories.

7. Based upon existing evidence, it is reasonable to believe each of us is a distant descendant of primitive human beings originally inhabiting Africa. In this sense, we are all Africans.

8. Every "centrism" -- be it Afrocentrism, Eurocentrism, or otherwise -- is counterproductive. We are what we are, due to the interaction of multiple peoples and cultures throughout history.

9. The sins of our ancestors or contemporaries are not our fault, including slavery and other acts of racial bigotry. The only guilt we need feel is for the wrongs we have personally done.

10. It is natural and normal for members of different racial groups to love each other, marry each other and have children. People have done so from the beginning. And the offspring from these unions are neither one race nor the other -- they are multiracial.

11. Parents bear the primary responsibility for breaking the cycle of racism. We should teach our children to judge others by character, not race.

12. Racism exists among all populations. We must challenge racism wherever we find it.

"Declaration of Racial Independence," copyright 1997, written by Nathan Douglas. Permission to copy is granted for educational and non-commercial purposes. All other rights reserved. Direct inquiries to P.O. Box 2500, Kensington, MD 20895.

[Anansasem]

In some ways, she expresses exactly what I've felt. Though, she accepts all of her heritage where I am attempting to reject all of mine.
"On Being Blackanese"
By Mitzi Uehara-Carter

Mitzi

"Umm. . .excuse me. Where are you from?"

"I'm from Houston, Texas."

"Oh...but your parents, where are they from?"

(Hmm. Should I continue to play stupid or just tell them.)
"My dad is from Houston, and my mom is from Okinawa, Japan"

"And your dad is black then?"

"Yup"

"So do you speak Japanese?"

"Some."

"Wow. Say something."

This is not a rare conversation. I cannot count the number of time I've pulled this script out to rehearse with random people who have accosted me in the past. "That's so exotic, so cool that you're mixed." It's not that these questions or comments bother me or that I am offended by their bluntness. I think it's more of the attitudes of bewilderment and the exoticism of my being and even the slight bossiness to do something "exotic" that annoy me. I think I am also annoyed because I am still exploring what it means to be both Japanese and Black and still have difficulty trying to express what that means to others.

In many ways and for many years I have grappled with the idea of being a product of two cultures brought together by an unwanted colonization of American military bases on my mother's homeland of Okinawa. Author of "In the Realm of a Dying Emperor," Norma Field expressed these sentiments more clearly than I ever could. "Many years into my growing up, I thought I had understood the awkward piquancy of biracial children with the formulation, they are nothing if not the embodiment of sex itself; now, I modify it to, the biracial offspring of war are at once more offensive and intriguing because they bear the imprint of sex as domination." Of course this is not how I feel about myself all the time, but rather it is the invisible bug that itches under my skin every now and then. It itches when I read about Okinawan girls being raped by U.S. Servicemen, when I see mail order bride ads, when I notice the high divorce or separation rate among Asian women and GI's who were married a few years after WWII, when I see the half-way hidden looks of disgust at my mother by other Japanese women when I walk by her side as a daughter. Our bodies, our presence, our reality is a nuisance to some because we defy a definite and demarcated set of boundaries. We confuse those who are trying to organize ethnic groups by highlighting these boundaries because they don't know how to include us or exclude us. We are blackanese, hapas, eurasians, multiracial..

My mother has been the center of jokes and derogatory comments since my older sister was born. She was the one who took my sister by the hand and led her through the streets of Bangkok and Okinawa as eyes stared and people gathered to talk about the sambo baby. She was the one who took all my siblings to the grocery stores, the malls, the park, school, Burger King, hospitals, church. In each of these public arenas we were stared at either in fascination because we were a new "sight" or stared at with a look of disgust or both. Nigga-chink, Black-Jap, Black-Japanese mutt. The neighborhood kids, friends, and adults labeled my siblings and me with these terms especially after they recognized that my mother was completely intent on making us learn about Okinawan culture. On New Year's Day, we had black eyed peas and mochi. We cleaned the house to start the year fresh and clean. "Don't laugh with your mouth too wide and show yo teeth too much," my mom would always tell us. "Be like a woman." I had not realized that I covered my mouth each time I laughed until someone pointed it out in my freshman year in college. When we disobeyed my mother's rule or screamed, we were being too "American." If I ever left the house with rollers in my hair, my mom would say I shouldn't do American things. "Agijibiyo. . .Where you learn this from? You are Okinawan too. Dame desuyo. Don't talk so much like Americans; listen first." There were several other cultural traits and values that I had inevitably inherited (and cherish) being raised by a Japanese mother.

Growing up in an all black neighborhood and attending predominately Black and Latino schools until college influenced my identity also. I was definitely not accepted in the Japanese circles as Japanese for several reasons, but that introduces another subject on acceptance into Japanese communities. Now this is not to say that the Black community I associated with embraced me as Blackanese, even though I think it is more accepting of multiracial people than probably any other group (because of the one-drop rule, etc.). There is still an exclusion for those who wish to encompass all parts of their heritage with equal weight, and there is also a subtle push to identify more with one's black heritage than the other part because "society won't see you as mixed or Japanese but BLACK." I can't count the number of times I have heard this argument. What I do know is that no society can tell me that I am more of one culture than another because of the way someone else defines me. I am Blackanese -- a mixture of the two in ways that cannot be divided. My body and mentality is not split down the middle where half is black and the other half is Japanese. I have taken the aspects of both worlds to create my own worldview and identity. Like Anna Vale said in Itabari Njeri's article "Sushi and Grits," my mother raised me the best way she knew how, "to be a good Japanese daughter."

My father on the otherhand never constantly sat down to "teach" us about being Black. We were surrounded by Blackness and lived it. He was always tired when he came home from work. He'd sit back in his sofa and blast his jazz. My mom would be in the kitchen with her little tape player listening to her Japanese and Okinawan tapes my aunt sent every other month from California. My siblings and I would stay at my grandmother's house once in a while (she cooked the best collard greens), and when my mom came to pick us up she'd teach her how to cook a southern meal for my father. Our meals were somewhat of an indicator of how much my mom held onto her traditions. My father would make his requests for chicken, steak or okra and my mom had learned to cook these things, but we always had Japanese rice on the side with nori and tofu and fishcake with these really noisome beans that are supposed to be good for you (according to my mom. I swear she knows what every Japanese magazine has to say about food and health). It was my mother who told us that we would be discriminated against because of our color, and it was my Japanese mother to whom we ran when we were called niggers at the public swimming pool in Houston. To say to this woman, "Mom, we are just black" would be a disrespectful slap in the face. The woman who raised us and cried for years from her family's coldness and rejection because of her decision to marry interracialy, cried when my father's sister wouldn't let her be a part of the family picture because she was a "Jap." This woman who happens to be my mother will never hear "Mom, I'm just Black" from my mouth because I'm not and no person -- society or government -- will force me to do that and deny my reality and my being, no matter how offensive I am to their country or how much of a nuisance I am to their cause. I am Blackanese.

At the time she wrote this, Mitzi was a senior at Duke University.
What I want, all I truly want, is to be able to identify myself and understand my human heritage in a way these people do. To be able to know and express a belief in something I can follow surely, to know myself and others in this way, that is the form of catharsis I will always look for until found.

[jook]

What I want, all I truly want, is to be able to identify myself and understand my human heritage in a way these people do. To be able to know and express a belief in something I can follow surely, to know myself and others in this way, that is the form of catharsis I will always look for until found.

For what its worth, let me tell you what I'm grappling towards.

When you and I are dead, returning to dust, what ethnicity or identity are we then? The world's understanding of identity and ethnicity is temporal. But there are things which are eternal and unchanging. I want to know what those eternal things are.

In order to find yourself, you just first lose yourself. To have life, one must first die. You become an empty vessel, into which God pours love, meaning and your true identity as a son of God. Only then can we relate fully and be in unity with our fellow beings.

This is the same God who gave a dream to Peter and said "do not say what I have made unclean" and to go into the home of a Roman. The one who gave a new identity to a man named Saul, changed his name to Paul, and empowered him, a highly zealous Jew and Pharisee, to go all over the Empire, to bring a message to the gentiles. Paul had a close relationship with Timothy, a young man of mixed Jewish and Greek heritage.

You may not believe in God but without a God who is sovereign in the universe, identity politics becomes a zero-sum Darwinian game of survival of the fittest, where might makes right. Hence, you and I are in competition. A cacophony of self-centered egos, where everyone has a grievance, where there is much weeping and gnashing of teeth, rather than souls aligned in beautiful, perfect, harmony to a divine order.

I don't have all the answers yet but I know which direction I'm heading in.

Which do you choose?

[atlasien]

Identity politics + Darwinism (which by the way does not equal "survival of the fittest") vs. God strikes me as quite an odd dichotomy. I don't believe that the purpose of human life is to find our true authentic selves according to some unitary belief system. No matter what race or culture, by some standard we're all incomplete, flawed and fake. So what? We were perfect and complete before we were born, and we'll all be perfect and complete after we die. In between, just try to enjoy yourself and help other people enjoy themselves. Why make yourself suffer? Construct your own identity according to ethical standards and respect for others, but don't wait for someone to come along and give it to you.

[Tyger Durden]

...hapas i meet in real life are usually the product of a military father and his Asian wife and ive had the reverse experience with them. i think the females are more sympathetic towards AA issues maybe because their identity is built as an Asian woman from the example of their mother. i have found the males to be usually lacking any awareness or concern for AA issues at all and were dismissive towards me if i brought it up because "that's all whiny fag talk", their ideal of masculinity comes from their non-Asian father (if they have a father) and they equate "Asian" with "female" because of their mother's subordinate relationship with either the father or the society which generally considers Asian women subordinate

Good points. You're right about some, but not all of those who identify with the term "hapa". From my experience with/observations of them I've found that, in a pseudo-Freudian way, some hapa females identify with their non-Asian father and some males identify with their (usually) Asian mother and may accept/respect the ethnicity/cultures of the respective parents more than the ethnicity/culture of the same-sex parent. This pseudo-Freudian "opposite-sex parent" identification by the child can also influence the dating/marriage preferences of the mixed children and I've have observed this to be true in many cases. But yes, you're right about the usual "daughters + mothers" and "sons + fathers" scenarios playing a role in childhood development in some/most families.

The mixed males that equate "Asian = emasculation" stand out like a sore thumbs, to the point where their exaggeration of Manhood can't be taken serious at all. I would ignore those types...or laugh at them because they are mere caricatures. I agree that this may stem from their Father Figure (whether Civilian or Military) who played a role to some degree in the child's view of Masculinity, some views being positive while some negative, but don't discount outside "peer pressure" from other Males who help shape the male child's views of the world.

Also keep in mind that a bad Father Figure can also cause a "backlash" in the child causing him/her to refuse to identify with their Father Figure, whether rejecting his bad behavior or even his ethnicity/culture, and maybe even equating the Father Figure's bad behavior with his ethnicity/culture and reject both at the same time. EDIT: on second thought, out of fairness, please apply to Mother Figures as well.

You're also right where you implied that there may not even be a father around. No doubt for such a child, he would learn about Manhood from themselves, an extended family (from unorganized gangs to organized sports), foster parents or maybe even through television/movie acting roles and books, comics, manga.

About more females having a "awareness/concern for AA issues" than males, you make another good point. But I think that's more a intellectual pursuit than a gender one and I can see both smarter males and females getting more involved than the "Do you think I'm attractive?" airheads of both genders on those sites. But, of course, every group has different personality types within it.
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[elliott20]

sigh... just wouldn't be fighting44 without some guy talking complaining about reverse racism on the board. And I can't believe some people can comparing F44 to stormfront.

[jook]

In between, just try to enjoy yourself and help other people enjoy themselves. Why make yourself suffer? Construct your own identity according to ethical standards and respect for others, but don't wait for someone to come along and give it to you.


but don't wait for someone to come along and give it to you...

if you truly believe in that then why are you coming along and giving me Existentialism and saying that I am the Master of my own absurd fate? You contradict yourself. ;)

[Ike]

I know Ike, Vetrean, and a few others are the same age without becoming a nuisance, though they also have a more defined sense of themselves than I do.

Oh, you joined after I was done with my nuisance-ness. My first thread was essentially "QQ! I'm dating a white guy but I'm not a CCB! Is that possible?" And from that point on, I've tried to keep an open mind and tried to learn more about race relations, and at least I've gotten to the point where new-ish members like yourself don't think I'm a nuisance. =)