Two of a Kind

[SamuraiJack]

http://dating.personals.yahoo.com/singles/relationships/682/two-of-a-kind

Saw this on the front page of Yahoo! Shows you that women of all races are being influenced by the media to go for the cracker ideal.

Good article overall.

[Vahz]

Old news, guy.

I find it ironic that the Asian women who refuse to date Asian men because it reminds them of their family because it's precisely the reason why I'm attracted to Asian women above all else. I'm extremely proud of my Asian background and how strong the women are in my family after I recovered from the mindfucking of being a twinkie. Dating another Asian girl just reminds me of them.

The argument that being of the same race or background is indeed a big bonus. I couldn't agree more.

[tkguy]

Thanks for posting the article samuraijack. Last time I've read something like this was Julie Oh's article from 5 years back. These articles from asian female are very rare.

I don't like how the author talks about ethnic identity like it's some kind of "magic gene". Probably spent all of 2 seconds to think about this. I bet if DJ didn't come into her life she would have just started dating another race of men who is not Indian. So she would just be replacing one fetish with another and all the while thinking that she's making real progress.

Anyway it's sad that the sister of the author refuses to date even one man from her own race. This is something I've seen time and time again. These people are determined to prove that their indoctrinated thoughts are true.

[Heyyu]

Actually that article is not necessarily talking about the "white ideal" as it is another message. In short: Girls go for the "bad boy." They want excitement, they want thrills, they don't want boring and safe. And unfortunately Asian men are considered too dull and the same.

A note: This extends to all races. Plenty of white geeks and nerds complain about their own white girls going after bad boys. And it's true. The more mysterious a guy seems, the more exotic, the more rebellious... girls are attracted to that for whatever reason.

[theme]

He was deeply interested in my culture-and I was deeply interested in the fact that he was about as far away from being Indian as I could get.

meh. Too early for the crap I was writing earlier. But I dunno, the cynic in me says it's much simpler than that.

Just keep in mind that she didn't really mention why she preferred non-Indians(and presumably Caucasians)in the first place. Indians have their issues with beauty standards as well.

[nskripchun]

While not revolutionary, it's always nice see something like this in print:

Eventually, and to my surprise, the missing gene kicked in when I met a gainfully employed Indian-American guy. He was also a DJ of underground music, which satisfied my taste for subculture. And as a bonus, he had a tuft of chest hair (a common Indian trait) poking out from the top of his T-shirt-that so help me, I actually thought was hot. We shared a strong, immediate attraction and a common identity. This made him novel, precious, and overwhelmingly intriguing despite my inner protest: But he's not my type-he's just like me!

The DJ was one of "my people," which classified him instantly as safe. But this time, instead of my usual aversion to familiarity, I found something sexy about our sameness. Right away we had an unspoken trust and respect-he didn't feel like a stranger for very long. Our common ground extended to our family values, our views on education and money, and our professional goals. And so many of my family's habits no longer required explanation-like my mom's practice of carrying Taco Bell sauce in her purse to spice up soups on the go, or my dad's lack of interest in football.

Of course, we still had arguments-sometimes over qualities that were quintessentially Indian, like his tendency to be macho or his hyperactive work ethic. But as others with bicultural identities can attest, the benefits of being with someone like you can trump all other concerns.

[SamuraiJack]

Actually that article is not necessarily talking about the "white ideal" as it is another message. In short: Girls go for the "bad boy." They want excitement, they want thrills, they don't want boring and safe. And unfortunately Asian men are considered too dull and the same.

A note: This extends to all races. Plenty of white geeks and nerds complain about their own white girls going after bad boys. And it's true. The more mysterious a guy seems, the more exotic, the more rebellious... girls are attracted to that for whatever reason.


Your theory falls apart when you realize that a lot of Asian girls are, in fact, going after white geeks.... the bottom of the barrel so to speak.

Some would even prefer a white geek to an Asian "bad boy".

In this case, the author doesn't realize that non-Indian, means "white". Indian men don't have as many negative stereotypes as Oriental men in the media, for them it's mainly lack of representation. We have to deal with negative and misleading representation.

[atlasien]

You know, sometimes the grass ISN'T greener on the other side. Thinking of representations of South Asian men in mainstream American media, I come up with Apu from the Simpsons and then a gazillion evil terrorists.

There are a few positive depictions out there, but South Asian and Arab-American men are portrayed just as negatively, if not more so, than East Asian men.

[RebelAzn]

You know, sometimes the grass ISN'T greener on the other side. Thinking of representations of South Asian men in mainstream American media, I come up with Apu from the Simpsons and then a gazillion evil terrorists.

There are a few positive depictions out there, but South Asian and Arab-American men are portrayed just as negatively, if not more so, than East Asian men.

Ok we all know the issue well here. What are we doing about it? I am glad an Indian American girl finally spoke up for their counterpart, what are our East Asian women doing for their men? There are far more East Asian women perpetuating the same stereotype against Asian men than ones out here trying to dispel them. Samurai Jack is right, some of these women are settling for the worst bottom of the barrel type white men on top of that.

That is one of the major issues within the community.

[Vahz]

I agree with AtlAsian. To be honest, you really don't want to hear the gossip about the Indian men in my work area when it comes to the women exchanging conversation.

1.) They don't shower.
2.) They smell.
3.) They're oppressive.
4.) They have names that are horrible to pronounce.
5.) Terrorists and perpetual foreigner.
6.) Every sexist stereotype you can think of.
7.) Eat nasty food.
8.) Always eat curry. See above.
9.) Horribly thick accent.
10.) The list goes on and on and it usually involves their lack of cleanliness and hygiene.

This spills over to the Indian women as well.

[atlasien]

Ok we all know the issue well here. What are we doing about it? I am glad an Indian American girl finally spoke up for their counterpart, what are our East Asian women doing for their men? There are far more East Asian women perpetuating the same stereotype against Asian men than ones out here trying to dispel them.

I'm just not interested in getting involved in that question right now because it's already been argued ad infinitum on this forum. Any approach that just relies on "what have you done for me lately" is NOT going to work, either directed towards men or towards women. The problem is a lot more complicated. The only point I wanted to make is that negative depictions of South Asian men in America shouldn't be minimized. In fact, it could be argued that their media stereotypes already include pretty much all the stereotypes of East Asian men, with some "evil fanatical terrorist" thrown on top.

[Vahz]

I dunno about that.

You have to have pretty big stones to suicide yourself into a building whereas East Asian men are eunuchs.

[lycheng]

^^ What about a fanatical religious zelot seeking 2,000 virgins in the afterlife and screaming "Death to America" while blowing himself up. Is that "big stones" enough for you to call a positive portrayal?

We all agree East Asian men are usually portrayed as sexually unattractive, emasculated, and nerdy. But you gotta admit it's hardly in the same league as your ubiquitous Arab terrorist.

[nekohead]

You all know that White MEN want just about every RACE of MEN to look NASTY to everyone even their OWN women.

I have seen NEG - Black Men in the Movies and T.V.
Pimps, Drug dealers and women beaters.

But, also TONS of NEG Black women.
Drugged out and on state aid and loose women that strip. Loud and I can go on and on. From what I seen. That is just MEAN :(

All other races of people are always PUT out their in the movies also.

JEWS are WHITE.

Italian are WHITE. Even though they have a little Black blood in them. But, most are WHITE, more than BLACK.

They are also PUT out their.

White men are hyping Asian women right now eventhough they been dating them for YEARS. They ran out of RACES to hype. They can't hvae MIDDLE EASTERN women. Because, the women WON'T marry out. Though some do slide through the cracks and marry White men. But, if they do that, they lose their WHOLE family. What man is worth that?

[atlasien]

South Asian Man: you can simultaneously be typecast as an emasculated nerdy convenience store clerk and a bloodthirsty terrorist.

East Asian Man: You can simultaneously be typecast as an emasculated nerdy deliveryman and a bloodthirsty mass murderer on the verge of a psychopathic explosion (this last one being recent in strength).

East Asian Woman: You can be simultaneously be typecast as a nerdy, submissive, sexless violin-playing math prodigy, and a whore.

Negative stereotypes don't need to have any consistency whatsoever.

[theme]

You know, sometimes the grass ISN'T greener on the other side. Thinking of representations of South Asian men in mainstream American media, I come up with Apu from the Simpsons and then a gazillion evil terrorists.

There are a few positive depictions out there, but South Asian and Arab-American men are portrayed just as negatively, if not more so, than East Asian men.

Apu and a gazillion evil terrorists? Apu is an affable character. While we're talking about cartoon characters, let's talk about Kahn from King of the Hill. He is portrayed as the foreigner with a thick accent who has an Asian daughter...and well, his neighbour has a caucasian son (with the predictable outcomes of the daughter becoming the son's girlfriend etc etc)

The professor from Heroes is South Asian and he's in a role that has A LOT of depth and humanity. The guy from Lost has a similar role. And both speak perfect English. The East Asian guys OTOH, Masi Oka and Daniel Dae Kim, BOTH struggle with English and portray foreigners while on Lost DDK's wife actually speaks English(LOL?). You're telling me that South Asian men have more negative protrayals? I'm not arguing about East Asian men versus South Asian men here but I find that extremely hard to believe. You can't get any more 'mainstream' than Lost and Heroes at this point in time.

Also, in Canada there is not a single East Asian male news anchor on a nationally broadcasted channel. Well, that is a lie. There is one-if you stay up late enough, you can catch him at around 3am in the morning on Newsworld.

Are there South Asian male news anchors? Yes. One had his own show, not sure if it's still on. There is one anchor on Citypulse News, the biggest municipal news program in the biggest city in Canada, in addition to other freelance reporters. There are a couple on CTV news(the biggest mostly widely broadcasted news program in Canada) and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more on other news programs. Remember, 1 East Asian male vs. at least half a dozen or more S. Asian male news anchors/reporters.

And Indian women are not ALWAYS protrayed with white men. WM/AF are represented everwhere, in commercials, in paper advertisements, in television and movies, and even on F44.

And with the negative protrayals of South Asian men as terrorists, there are TONS of endorsements to the contrary. How many times do you see celebrities and well known media personas reiterating the fact that muslims and extremists are only a VERY VERY small minority. There isn't anything close to that type of counterpoint for Asian men. Also, negative portryals of South Asian men are largely about political and religious differences.

While I agree South Asian men have their own trials and tribulations, I DOUBT that they are in any way as bad or worse off than East Asian men. So no, I don't want to 'minimize' the effects of negative portrayals of S. Asian men, but let's not get carried away with exaggerations here because I can go on and on and on to prove you wrong.

[tkguy]

Think of the author of the article like a broken car. A car that only goes in reverse. To fight stereotypes imo is like forcing the earth to spin backwards to make the car seem like it's going forward.

Instead of trying to do the impossible why don't you people just learn about the mechanics of a car and fix the car.

In other words fix our people, don't worry about what others thinks of us.

[theme]

What ever you do, make sure the only people fixing the car are mechanics who you truly trust. There are so many so-called mechanics who are 'on your side' but who are in fact trying to rip you off of your hard earned dollars. I'll leave it up to you to think who these people are.

[DONKEY]

whats the prize for winning the oppression olympics

[DijabutiA]

I dunno about that.

You have to have pretty big stones to suicide yourself into a building whereas East Asian men are eunuchs.

A bunch of those "eunuchs" embarassed the hell out of this country 30 years ago... rewind another 20 years again if you want to keep the theme going.

[Scowl]

Apu is an affable character.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that Apu from "The Simpsons" is a positive media portrayal for South Asians?

[Ike]

whats the prize for winning the oppression olympics

A salad from whitey, because they already ate all the cookies.

[nskripchun]

whats the prize for winning the oppression olympics

enslavement by the white man... yeeeeeeeehaw!

[theme]

whats the prize for winning the oppression olympics

more oppression?

[Vahz]

From what I gather, Theme is trying to say that with the history of East Asians in media, Indian Americans have caught up or even surpassed East Asians in just a fraction of the time.

[theme]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that Apu from "The Simpsons" is a positive media portrayal for South Asians?

Nah, not at all. I remember when the Simpsons at it's peak people were imitating Apu's speech, but I never did it to any south Asians and I didn't see a lot of people doing it as a whole.

But he was an affable character. In fact, all the characters on the Simpsons were likable, even Mr. Burns at times. A character like Kahn, however, is not. He was a snarky, overachieving, thick accent english speaking, yellow tinged foreigner. I just thought it was really strange to bring Apu up.

[minbo]

Apu and a gazillion evil terrorists? Apu is an affable character.

"Daddy Jim Crow" and Golliwogg were affable characters also.

If you want to look at the "positive" sides of stereotype images, then you could say that Fu Manchu was a deadly assassin, rich, powerful, and a genius, and the first super villain. EVER.

I don't see anyone clamoring to have their ethnicity associated with any of these characters.

Anyway, arguing over who has a less desirable media portrayal for no reason other than boasting rights of being the underdog is akin to playing king of the hill on a manure pile with an imaginary friend. You probably can win if you really want to, but you will get covered in crap doing so, and in the end all you get is to be able to say that you are king of a pile of shit. You go girl!

[Heyyu]

From what I gather, Theme is trying to say that with the history of East Asians in media, Indian Americans have caught up or even surpassed East Asians in just a fraction of the time.

I have to strongly disagree with that. If anything, I thought that Indian women were actually less attractive to white men then Asian girls (by that I mean Far East). I mean, I've met people with Asian fetishes but 99% of the time it's towards East Asians and sometimes Southeast Asians (like Filipina girls).

But very rarely do I meet people with Indian fetishes. You do get some of the yoga freaks and even some of the Buddhists (although ironically most people equate Buddhism with Chinese culture).

Hell, even the East Asians in the UK want to be disassociated with the term "Asian" because it usually refers to the Pakistani/Indian/Bangladesh/Sri Lankans who have a negative image over there.

HOWEVER ironically I do think that in terms of looking "white" it's not uncommon for Indian females to naturally have white features like big eyes and a large nose bridge and all that (see: Miss Universe contests and usually the Indian women have classical Anglo-features). And unlike East Asian girls, most of them don't need surgery to achieve it. In other words, the prettiest Indian women can look like Halle Berry.

[Vahz]

I'm talking about social representations.

I agree with the idea that the asian fetish doesn't include Asian Indians. This is why there is almost no disparity between the genders whereas the one between East Asian men and women is massive.

[theme]

"Daddy Jim Crow" and Golliwogg were affable characters also.

If you want to look at the "positive" sides of stereotype images, then you could say that Fu Manchu was a deadly assassin, rich, powerful, and a genius, and the first super villain. EVER.

So you're saying Apu is on the same level as Fu Manchu? Have you seen the Simpsons? Everyone on the Simpsons was a stereotype. Apu was maybe a stereotype. So was Homer, so was Marge, so was Flanders, Burns, Reverend Lovejoy, Principal Seymore, and the list just goes on and on. But in the broader context, was Apu really really bad? It's been about 20 years since the Simpsons debuted and I don't see Indians trying to live down the stereotype. Do you? More and more portrayals of convenient store owners are immigrant Koreans. But atlasien said that S. Asian men only have Apu and a gazillion terrorists to portray them, REALLY?? Come on.



Anyway, arguing over who has a less desirable media portrayal for no reason other than boasting rights of being the underdog is akin to playing king of the hill on a manure pile with an imaginary friend. You probably can win if you really want to, but you will get covered in crap doing so, and in the end all you get is to be able to say that you are king of a pile of shit. You go girl!

No boasting rights needed, just something that is closer to the facts.

[theme]

I have to strongly disagree with that. If anything, I thought that Indian women were actually less attractive to white men then Asian girls (by that I mean Far East). I mean, I've met people with Asian fetishes but 99% of the time it's towards East Asians and sometimes Southeast Asians (like Filipina girls).

But very rarely do I meet people with Indian fetishes. You do get some of the yoga freaks and even some of the Buddhists (although ironically most people equate Buddhism with Chinese culture).

Hell, even the East Asians in the UK want to be disassociated with the term "Asian" because it usually refers to the Pakistani/Indian/Bangladesh/Sri Lankans who have a negative image over there.

HOWEVER ironically I do think that in terms of looking "white" it's not uncommon for Indian females to naturally have white features like big eyes and a large nose bridge and all that (see: Miss Universe contests and usually the Indian women have classical Anglo-features). And unlike East Asian girls, most of them don't need surgery to achieve it. In other words, the prettiest Indian women can look like Halle Berry.


Vahz had it wrong. I was specifically talking about Indian men and E. Asian men. I don't know what it is exactly, maybe it's the large eyes and the high bridged noses and etc etc, but there are a lot of Indian male media personas particularly in news. There's even this short Tamil looking guy who co-hosts an Entertainment Tonight-like show with a tall Caucasian woman. He's just an example, but there are A LOT.

But again, to put it into context. It was said that S. Asian men are portrayed far far worse than E. Asian men but I brought up different examples to counter it.

[minbo]

So you're saying Apu is on the same level as Fu Manchu? Have you seen the Simpsons?

I'm not saying that he is on the same level as Fu Manchu, better or worse. Just that arguing that he is not a bad stereotype because he is affable and likable is a display of ethnic and cultural insensitivity.

I'm also saying that arguing that East Asians have it better worse than South Asians in terms of media portrayal and masculinity is fucking moronic. It is not like either groups has it good, they both are in a world of shit. It's not getting closer to any facts, it's just pissing and moaning.

Arguing for the right to feel sorry for yourself that you are the most oppressed in the media.

[theme]

I'm not saying that he is on the same level as Fu Manchu, better or worse. Just that arguing that he is not a bad stereotype because he is affable and likable is a display of ethnic and cultural insensitivity.

I'm also saying that arguing that East Asians have it better worse than South Asians in terms of media portrayal and masculinity is fucking moronic. It is not like either groups has it good, they both are in a world of shit. It's not getting closer to any facts, it's just pissing and moaning.

Arguing for the right to feel sorry for yourself that you are the most oppressed in the media.

If that is the case then why are you singling me out? I wasn't the one who was trying first to say that S. Asians have it worse than E. Asian men. I didn't make this a contest. Someone else did.But if someone wants to do that then I feel obligated to correct them if I think they're speaking out of their ass as usual.

I said from the very beginning of this thread that S. Asians have their own adversity to deal with. Listen, it's become apparent to me that people aren't disagreeing with me at all. I have a problem with tact and letting things go, I know, but I don't think I'm usually wrong. On that note, I'm going to drop everything. I'm not going to argue in this thread or with this person again. I've done it way too many times with this type of person and yeah, I need to learn my lesson and realize that it's just a waste of time.

[atlasien]

whats the prize for winning the oppression olympics

:) Seriously, if it doesn't degenerate into Oppression Olympics (and that's a big "if"), I think discussing negative representations of other groups can sometimes be really productive. For example, the terrorism connection. It existed before 9/11, then was increased exponentially. East Asians are less vulnerable, but still somewhat vulnerable, to being cast as terrorists if some major terrorist event happens and an East Asian face is linked to it.

In parallel, a lot of South Asians and Arab-Americans look at Japanese-American internment and think "hmm... they did it once, they could do it again."

[minbo]

If that is the case then why are you singling me out?

Don't mean to single you out for the piss fight on who's represented worse, I just could not let the who Apu is an affable character comment slide. I wouldn't take it if someone implied that a Chinaman laundry guy character was OK simply because he seems affable, or that it's OP for a Chinaman laundry guy character to be a bad stereotype on a show because everyone is in that show is stereotyped, so it would be hypocritical for me to take it when applied to Apu.

[theme]

Don't mean to single you out for the piss fight on who's represented worse, I just could not let the who Apu is an affable character comment slide. I wouldn't take it if someone implied that a Chinaman laundry guy character was OK simply because he seems affable, or that it's OP for a Chinaman laundry guy character to be a bad stereotype on a show because everyone is in that show is stereotyped, so it would be hypocritical for me to take it when applied to Apu.

To be totally honest, Asian guys are always stereotyped in t.v./movies/whatever. If I see these guys in these roles I don't even flinch. Whether it's a chinaman laundry guy or a convenient store guy or a chinese cook guy, it doesn't really effect me.

But if you feel bad about the Apu statement, I totally understand. There are differences between the Apu imagery and the Fu Manchu imagery, but if you feel bad about the Apu character then that is entirely up to you. It's not my place to say that you shouldn't feel bad. I personally like the character, and the whole show, but I can see why you would think it's a bad portrayal.

[Dimeron]

I would say E.Asian men get treated worse in the media compared to S.E Asian men. Granted, there is Apu, and few instances of Indian shop keeper that talk funny.

Compared to rich and colorful history of Fu Manchu to Long Duk Dong to Kahn Souphanousinphone.

[Heyyu]

OK, how the hell are E.Asian men treated worse in the media than Indian men? Indian men got the Apu Quik-E-Mart stereotype compounded with the terrorist stereotype (I know that's more Middle Eastern but to use an analogy Indian & Middle Eastern share the same stereotypes just as the East Asian & Southeast Asians do whether they like it or not).

At least E.Asian men, if you wanna play it that ways, got the Bruce Lee/Ninja/Samurai stereotype. I mean, at least ninja's and samurai's are fundamentally cool and Bruce Lee could kick anyone's ass. What the hell do Indians have? Gandhi?

[theme]

Compared to rich and colorful history of Fu Manchu to Long Duk Dong to Kahn Souphanousinphone.

HAHAHAHA. YES! Someone else besides me who watches KotH.

[Tyger Durden]

http://dating.personals.yahoo.com/singles/relationships/682/two-of-a-kind

Saw this on the front page of Yahoo! Shows you that women of all races are being influenced by the media to go for the cracker ideal.

Good article overall.

Interesting. I'm not blaming her, but I think with some/most countries it has to be Media and Colonialism working hand in hand to create a Colonial Mentality that adopts/worships the values of the Colonizer. In this case, India (and a lot of other places) was a Colony of Britain, so it doesn't surprise me that the author of that article was in some ways "taught" to pursue other ideals of masculinity/manhood as in "bend it over for Beckham" while growing up:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/EyeOfTheTyger/BendItOver.jpg?t=1181153641 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)


EDIT: of course I speak as a person living a former British colony myself.

[nskripchun]

At least E.Asian men, if you wanna play it that ways, got the Bruce Lee/Ninja/Samurai stereotype. I mean, at least ninja's and samurai's are fundamentally cool and Bruce Lee could kick anyone's ass. What the hell do Indians have? Gandhi?

Kumar and Dr. Mohinder Suresh FTW!

[theme]

At least E.Asian men, if you wanna play it that ways, got the Bruce Lee/Ninja/Samurai stereotype. I mean, at least ninja's and samurai's are fundamentally cool and Bruce Lee could kick anyone's ass. What the hell do Indians have? Gandhi?

You know what I really hate is that Asian guys use to get offended if someone thought they took a martial arts. I just don't get that. Martial arts are an honorable tradition in East Asia, but over here, Asian guys avoid the correlation like the black plague. I realize that the majority of roles that we got were based in this genre but it's like Asian guys LET non-Asians make them feel ashamed for something that has no shame it in at all.

I still don't understand the complaint about the kung fu stereotype. If someone asked me if I took Kung Fu and I really did take Kung Fu I would say HELL YEAH.

Meh, even these days you go to an Asian forum where there are 15-19 year olds and they complain about the stereotyping of Asian men they always put the martial arts one at the top but they don't know why. It's such a knee jerk complaint that it renders all legitimate complaints comical.

[theme]

Kumar and Dr. Mohinder Suresh FTW!

And that guy from Lost.

Damnit someone get me his name.

[maogirl]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/EyeOfTheTyger/BendItOver.jpg?t=1181153641




damn, jonathan rhys-myers is gorgeous.

[ZhuBaJie]

Apu is not the same as Fu Manchu. Apu is the same as Charlie Chan. the "raghead" terrorist stereotype would be the same as Fu Manchu.

for those of you who have not read Frank Chin's "Racist Love", please do read it: http://www.modelminority.com/article1026.html

this is also another good essay - The Chinaman and the Chink (http://www.racingmix.com/word/chink.htm)

[nskripchun]

And that guy from Lost.

Damnit someone get me his name.

Naveen Andrews... British Indian d00d playing an Iraqi!

http://imdb.com/name/nm0004710/bio