Asians in South America

[ampha]

Is it true that the interracial dating/marriage dynamic is reversed in South America? Do Asian men intermarry more than Asian women in Latin America?

I wrote up a short post about this here (http://ampha.org/2007/05/ampha-south-america-shutting-down/). Unfortunately, it's based off of a single anecdotal UCLA newspaper article and one research paper that examines the Japanese in Brazil. The research paper says that a marriage to a Japanese man is viewed as "guaranteed" and that the Brazilian media paints a positive image of the Japanese overall. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any intermarriage statistics for South America to include, which would have been the clincher.

A differential comparison between the US and South America is an interesting way to identify the underlying causes of the disparities.

Has anyone who has been to South America seen this? Or have a second-hand story to tell?

[RebelAzn]

Is it true that the interracial dating/marriage dynamic is reversed in South America? Do Asian men intermarry more than Asian women in Latin America?

I wrote up a short post about this here (http://ampha.org/2007/05/ampha-south-america-shutting-down/). Unfortunately, it's based off of a single anecdotal UCLA newspaper article and one research paper that examines the Japanese in Brazil. The research paper says that a marriage to a Japanese man is viewed as "guaranteed" and that the Brazilian media paints a positive image of the Japanese overall. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any intermarriage statistics for South America to include, which would have been the clincher.

A differential comparison between the US and South America is an interesting way to identify the underlying causes of the disparities.

Has anyone who has been to South America seen this? Or have a second-hand story to tell?

I have been to Brazil a number of times. I can tell you first hand there is no doubt in my mind interracial dating for AMs there is way better than in the USA. When I walk around the malls, it is common to see AMs with Brazilian girls like CCBs here with white guys. I would say I probably saw even more of AMs there with Brazilian girls than the other way around. I believe Asians in Brazil do have a pretty good reputation so it helps. Also, girls in general in Brazil are pretty nice. If you even speak a little Portuguese, I don't think it is that hard to strike up conversation with anyone. You certainly don't get some of that hostile stares one might get if you are in middle of Oklahoma or something. On top of that, there is no comparison wise if you are talking about beauty with Brazilian girls. To me, they would blow regular American girls away in the looks department and they don't wear a ton of makeup. I was there with my GF at the time. Even when I was there with a girl, some women would still tried to talk to me. Some tried to talk to me in Japanese but they almost tried Portuguese first. I guess they get a lot of Japanese tourists there. Overall, it is one of the best places to visit if you just like friendly people. If I can speak fluent Portuguese, it won't be a bad place to retire. One thing though you do have to stay clear of areas that have crime issues. Brazil has ghettos they called Fevilas which is pretty scary but that's another story.

For people that think media has no effect on racism or interracial dating, they must be nuts. It would be an interest experience for Asian American men to be judged as a man vs. as a stereotypical Asian man in Brazil. America got a long way to go in this department.

[theme]

I have been to Brazil a number of times. I can tell you first hand there is no doubt in my mind interracial dating for AMs there is way better than in the USA. When I walk around the malls, it is common to see AMs with Brazilian girls like CCBs here with white guys. I would say I probably saw even more of AMs there with Brazilian girls than the other way around. I believe Asians in Brazil do have a pretty good reputation so it helps. Also, girls in general in Brazil are pretty nice. If you even speak a little Portuguese, I don't think it is that hard to strike up conversation with anyone. You certainly don't get some of that hostile stares one might get if you are in middle of Oklahoma or something. On top of that, there is no comparison wise if you are talking about beauty with Brazilian girls. To me, they would blow regular American girls away in the looks department and they don't wear a ton of makeup. I was there with my GF at the time. Even when I was there with a girl, some women would still tried to talk to me. Some tried to talk to me in Japanese but they almost tried Portuguese first. I guess they get a lot of Japanese tourists there. Overall, it is one of the best places to visit if you just like friendly people. If I can speak fluent Portuguese, it won't be a bad place to retire. One thing though you do have to stay clear of areas that have crime issues. Brazil has ghettos they called Fevilas which is pretty scary but that's another story.

For people that think media has no effect on racism or interracial dating, they must be nuts. It would be an interest experience for Asian American men to be judged as a man vs. as a stereotypical Asian man in Brazil. America got a long way to go in this department.

You can't really compare the U.S. and Brazil. The media is not the difference that makes Brazil better than the U.S. for Asian men. AFAIK, the Japanese brought a lot of culture with them when they arrived in Brazil looking for jobs. For example, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a very popular Martial Art in Brazil(obviously) and it's become huge all over the world because of Royce Gracie and the UFC. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is also an offshoot of Jiu-Jitsu, if I'm not mistaken, which originated in Japan. Along with MA I think Japanese food and cultural customs have also made an impact.

So, to me, the difference is economic class. Yeah, here in the U.S. Asians have great buying power and top earning salaries per household and so on, but so do a lot of Indians and certainly whites as well. In Brazil, you don't really have that. Most of South America is still very much a undeveloped or developing country. Essentially, there isn't that much competition.

If you really wanted to make an experiment and put your assumptions about Brazilian women to test, try transplanting some to the U.S., give them a generation or two to settle in, and then see if their attitudes about Asian men remain the same.

[ampha]

You can't really compare the U.S. and Brazil. The media is not the difference that makes Brazil better than the U.S. for Asian men. AFAIK, the Japanese brought a lot of culture with them when they arrived in Brazil looking for jobs. For example, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a very popular Martial Art in Brazil(obviously) and it's become huge all over the world because of Royce Gracie and the UFC. Jiu-Jitsu is also an offshoot of Judo, if I'm not mistaken, which originated in Japan. Along with MA I think Japanese food and cultural customs have also made an impact.

So, to me, the difference is economic class. Yeah, here in the U.S. Asians have great buying power and top earning salaries per household and so on, but so do a lot of Indians and certainly whites as well. In Brazil, you don't really have that. Most of South America is still very much a undeveloped or developing country. Essentially, there isn't that much competition.

If you really wanted to make an experiment and put your assumptions about Brazilian women to test, try transplanting some to the U.S., give them a generation or two to settle in, and then see if their attitudes about Asian men remain the same.

If you assume that the Japanese bring their culture wherever they emigrate, then why haven't jiu-jitsu, food and cultural customs had the same impact in the U.S.? Put another way, how do these customs spread? How did it blossom into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu there, but into Daniel-san and Mr. Miyagi here? That has to be somewhat related to the media.

Class certainly is a factor, but the research paper says that the Japanese are predominantly middle class- not necessarily the top socioeconomic bracket. Brazilians are the majority, so due to numbers alone there should be enough comparably well-off Brazilian men and women. Japanese men may benefit more from the positive image, but that doesn't explain the Japanese women/Brazilian men reverse dynamic and why this particular majority/minority assimilation gradient is so different from the U.S. It's hard to quantify the class contribution, given the other factors.

In the end, I think you can compare the U.S. and Brazil. Certainly, U.S./Brazil doesn't control for all variables of interest because there are too many, but you're not going to get a better example that you can actually examine in real life.

[theme]

If you assume that the Japanese bring their culture wherever they emigrate, then why haven't jiu-jitsu, food and cultural customs had the same impact in the U.S.? Put another way, how do these customs spread? How did it blossom into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu there, but into Daniel-san and Mr. Miyagi here? That has to be somewhat related to the media.

Well, from the article I got that the stereotypes of Asian men in the U.S. and Brazil are actually similar. They are considered to be intelligent, highly educated, and hardworking. But Brazil has never been an economic powerhouse, they're culture has never spread outside the borders of South America to the same extent that American culture has. And because Whites have been the driving force behind it, anything that is put in comparison would recede into ambiguity. Contrast that with Brazilian men in Brazil and the image of Asian men look pretty darn good. And while I agree that the media is always a factor everywhere, I don't know that it is what makes the big difference at the end of the day.


Class certainly is a factor, but the research paper says that the Japanese are predominantly middle class- not necessarily the top socioeconomic bracket. Brazilians are the majority, so due to numbers alone there should be enough comparably well-off Brazilian men and women. Japanese men may benefit more from the positive image, but that doesn't explain the Japanese women/Brazilian men reverse dynamic and why this particular majority/minority assimilation gradient is so different from the U.S. It's hard to quantify the class contribution, given the other factors.

I thought the article made a HUGE emphasis on economics. If you notice, alot of the AM/SouthAmericanWomen observed in the article suggests that the women came from a much lower class economically. At least that is the point that I got because Peruvian women, Mexican women, or Peruvians and Mexicans in general are known to come from much poorer backgrounds. Peru and Mexico are underdeveloped. Therefore, the lower interracial marriages of Japanese women in Brazil and the higher IR marriages for Japanese men is a result of economics.

Also, you might observe that the article makes no mention of any disparity where Whites were included as a significant part of the IR marriages rates. So whereas Asian males marry a lot of non-European Brazilians(apparently) in Brazil, Asian women marry a lot of Whites in the U.S. as opposed to any other ethnic group.


In the end, I think you can compare the U.S. and Brazil. Certainly, U.S./Brazil doesn't control for all variables of interest because there are too many, but you're not going to get a better example that you can actually examine in real life.

For the reasons that I've mentioned I just don't think you can compare Brazil and the U.S.

[kimtae]

Brazil and Japan have had a very special relationship for many decades. Even now Brazilians, in an odd reverse, get special favors for immigrating to Japan. There has been a huge influx of Brazilians to Japan in the last ten-fifteen years. What would be more telling is to see how other Asians are treated in Brazil.
I think there's a mixed bag of attitudes towards Asians. The Korean wave has certainly helped a lot in terms of garnering favorable attitudes in countries like Mexico where Korean dramas and movies have been big hits but just how much is hard to say. Anectodally I've heard from various people that overall the perception in S. America and Latin America is good because unlike the US people there see "traditional Asian values" ie scholarship, hard work, family values as being very positive traits. There are some negatives.
Uruguay is a center of shipping for Korean fishing vessels that ply the waters of the coast of Argentina. When the ships come in for repairs or for supplies the fishermen are often there for days or weeks at a time. This has created small communities that are full of illegitimate half-Korean children. Needless to say the image there of Koreans is one of half-drunk, free-wheeling, promiscuous men who "take" the local women and then abandon them.

[ampha]

Well, from the article I got that the stereotypes of Asian men in the U.S. and Brazil are actually similar. They are considered to be intelligent, highly educated, and hardworking. But Brazil has never been an economic powerhouse, they're culture has never spread outside the borders of South America to the same extent that American culture has. And because Whites have been the driving force behind it, anything that is put in comparison would recede into ambiguity. Contrast that with Brazilian men in Brazil and the image of Asian men look pretty darn good. And while I agree that the media is always a factor everywhere, I don't know that it is what makes the big difference at the end of the day.

I thought the article made a HUGE emphasis on economics. If you notice, alot of the AM/SouthAmericanWomen observed in the article suggests that the women came from a much lower class economically. At least that is the point that I got because Peruvian women, Mexican women, or Peruvians and Mexicans in general are known to come from much poorer backgrounds. Peru and Mexico are underdeveloped. Therefore, the lower interracial marriages of Japanese women in Japan and the higher IR marriages for Japanese men
is a result of economics. Also, you might observe that the article makes no mention of any disparity where Whites were included as a significant part of the IR marriages rates. So, whereas Asian males marry a lot of non-European whites in Brazil, Asian women marry a lot of Whites in the U.S. as opposed to any other ethnic group.



I'm going to limit my comments to Brazil because economics is only specifically addressed in that research paper. The UCLA article that mentions Mexico and Peru does not specifically claim economics as the cause, merely implying it through a hard-working, business-owning stereotype; in fact the quote from the Peruvian woman says that Japanese women want to maintain their culture.

Economics is important, but it is a relative measure. Asians in Brazil are not going to live up to an absolute first-world standard, but they are comparatively well-off by Brazil's standards, just as Asians in the USA are comparatively well-off by American standards, due to shared academic achievement. Economically, Asian should look comparatively good in both countries.

The economic argument is that Brazilian women want to marry into a higher percentile. Then why don't American women intermarry Asians at the same rate? As everything is a rank percentile, competition is not the answer: given the similar percentiles and majority status, there are proportionally as many Brazilian men who occupy the same economic space as Japanese-Brazilian men as there are there are White/Black/Hispanic men who occupy the same economic space as Asian-American men. Yet Brazilian-Japanese men face an entirely different situation.

Economics is important, but something else is happening as well. I think kimtae's post helps to explain why US/Brazil may be a bad comparison, since Brazil is a special case. I'm going to concede and avoid generalizing further.

Brazil and Japan have had a very special relationship for many decades. Even now Brazilians, in an odd reverse, get special favors for immigrating to Japan. There has been a huge influx of Brazilians to Japan in the last ten-fifteen years. What would be more telling is to see how other Asians are treated in Brazil.
I think there's a mixed bag of attitudes towards Asians. The Korean wave has certainly helped a lot in terms of garnering favorable attitudes in countries like Mexico where Korean dramas and movies have been big hits but just how much is hard to say. Anectodally I've heard from various people that overall the perception in S. America and Latin America is good because unlike the US people there see "traditional Asian values" ie scholarship, hard work, family values as being very positive traits. There are some negatives.
Uruguay is a center of shipping for Korean fishing vessels that ply the waters of the coast of Argentina. When the ships come in for repairs or for supplies the fishermen are often there for days or weeks at a time. This has created small communities that are full of illegitimate half-Korean children. Needless to say the image there of Koreans is one of half-drunk, free-wheeling, promiscuous men who "take" the local women and then abandon them.

[awong]

a japanese friend from brazil hates it there b/c of the economic situation and the high crime comparing it to worse than living in high crime areas in the US.

[theme]

I'm going to limit my comments to Brazil because economics is only specifically addressed in that research paper. The UCLA article that mentions Mexico and Peru does not specifically claim economics as the cause, merely implying it through a hard-working, business-owning stereotype; in fact the quote from the Peruvian woman says that Japanese women want to maintain their culture.


Well, I'm trying to take into consideration that the 'Japanese women want to maintain their culture' line was not an observation made by the author of the article-Jon Chang-, not by a Japanese man or a Japanese woman, nor was it made by anyone with, or what appears to be, credentials in the matter. The observation was simply made by a Peruvian woman. Notice that neither the IR rates nor the reasons for the reversed IR disparity was ever put under scientific scrutiny. We're expected to take the words of a bystander at face value. It's exactly in the same vein as 'I heard from a friend of a friend...'.


The economic argument is that Brazilian women want to marry into a higher percentile. Then why don't American women intermarry Asians at the same rate? As everything is a rank percentile, competition is not the answer: given the similar percentiles and majority status, there are proportionally as many Brazilian men who occupy the same economic space as Japanese-Brazilian men as there are there are White/Black/Hispanic men who occupy the same economic space as Asian-American men. Yet Brazilian-Japanese men face an entirely different situation.


Well, it's very hard to see what situation Brazilian-Japanese men are facing when we are deprived of the actual numbers for IR as well as first hand accounts(not the word of a bystander) of the conditions in which they live. With what information we have been given though, it sure does sound a lot like the IR disparity in Brazil, if there really is any, is heavily dependant on economics.

[RebelAzn]

to All I got to Theme is you are wrong. Why do I know this? First of all , have you even seen Brazilian TV (TV Globo)? I watched a lot of Brazilian TV. Although I don't understand the language, but I do have someone who translates it for me. You just have to trust me I know a lot about Brazil than your average American.

#1 Asians are not the richest people in Brazil. They are definitely better off than the average Brazilian, but they are not the top class either.

#2 While there are stereotypes, but for the most part they are fairly decent and Asians definitely are not portrayed the same way as here. One of the biggest entertainment in Brazil is Brazilian Soap Operas. Although they don't have a ton of Asian characters on T, there are some. When they are on TV, they usually speak perfect Portuguese vs. having a huge accent. In other words, they are being shown as a regular person vs. some stereotypes. You don't think that has an effect on people?

#3 Brazilian TV has a regular series on countries around the world. I have seen the ones where they did for Japan and China. For Japan, they do show Japan as a very rich and wealth country. BTW, Brazil has the largest Japanese population outside Japan. Many Brazilians do want to go to Japan as well as the USA. For the China one, the reporter actually went to very remote and poor Chinese villages and interviewed people there. They really did it in a way to show people there are real nice even though they are poor. They even did a story on how now there are too many men in China vs. women and some men are having a hard time finding wives.

#4 I have no idea bout any of the studies or whatever, but I do see things with my own eyes. I met quite a few Asians there and their attitude is no doubt different than Asian Americans about Brazil. Most of them love Brazil and quite a few of the guys have Brazilian girlfriends. I also saw quite a few inter-ethnic dating/marriage between Chinese and Japanese Brazilians.

Bottom line is they show Asians more as regular people vs. stereotypes. If you don't think that has an effect, then I guess you can continue to be that glass half empty type of guy.

[theme]

to All I got to Theme is you are wrong. Why do I know this? First of all , have you even seen Brazilian TV (TV Globo)? I watched a lot of Brazilian TV. Although I don't understand the language, but I do have someone who translates it for me. You just have to trust me I know a lot about Brazil than your average American.

The only brazilian television I watch is of bootyful brazilian girls wrestling in jelly.


#1 Asians are not the richest people in Brazil. They are definitely better off than the average Brazilian, but they are not the top class either.

Actually I was speaking about Asians in the U.S. not having the economic advantage like they do in Brazil because American Whites/others also have great buying power in addition to major cultural influences.


#2 While there are stereotypes, but for the most part they are fairly decent and Asians definitely are not portrayed the same way as here. One of the biggest entertainment in Brazil is Brazilian Soap Operas. Although they don't have a ton of Asian characters on T, there are some. When they are on TV, they usually speak perfect Portuguese vs. having a huge accent. In other words, they are being shown as a regular person vs. some stereotypes. You don't think that has an effect on people?

Brazil doesn't turn out as many Television series as Americans. Not even close. But how much are you willing to bet that I can come up with WAY more instances of positive portrayals of Asian males in a SIGNIFICANT role on American telelvision? My point though is not that the media doesn't have an effect on people, but I don't think that it's to the extent that makes the difference between Japanese-Brazilian men and AsianAmerican men.


#3 Brazilian TV has a regular series on countries around the world. I have seen the ones where they did for Japan and China. For Japan, they do show Japan as a very rich and wealth country. BTW, Brazil has the largest Japanese population outside Japan. Many Brazilians do want to go to Japan as well as the USA. For the China one, the reporter actually went to very remote and poor Chinese villages and interviewed people there. They really did it in a way to show people there are real nice even though they are poor. They even did a story on how now there are too many men in China vs. women and some men are having a hard time finding wives.

Americans have done that for years. It's called National Geographic and The Discovery Channel. And that's just TWO of the many outlets that explores worldwide destinations in a respectable way.


#4 I have no idea bout any of the studies or whatever, but I do see things with my own eyes. I met quite a few Asians there and their attitude is no doubt different than Asian Americans about Brazil. Most of them love Brazil and quite a few of the guys have Brazilian girlfriends. I also saw quite a few inter-ethnic dating/marriage between Chinese and Japanese Brazilians.

That's good to hear.

[RebelAzn]

[QUOTE]Brazil doesn't turn out as many Television series as Americans. Not even close. But how much are you willing to bet that I can come up with WAY more instances of positive portrayals of Asian males in a SIGNIFICANT role on American telelvision? My point though is not that the media doesn't have an effect on people, but I don't think that it's to the extent that makes the difference between Japanese-Brazilian men and Asian American men.

Ok whatever. Lets just agree to disagree. You can continue to use whatever reason to justify whatever negative thoughts you have. If media has no effect, why do they broadcast things to demoralize the troops during wars? Brazil as a society is full of mixed people and they are far more tolerant of racial differences than the USA.



Americans have done that for years. It's called National Geographic and The Discovery Channel. And that's just TWO of the many outlets that explores worldwide destinations in a respectable way.


Again you miss the point. National Geography and the Discovery Channel are shown on cable/satellite channel with minimal viewers while the TV show I was talking about was shown on the most popular TV channel in Brazil. While USA has like over 500+ channels to distract people, Brazil has far less. I am sure you know the difference.

[theme]

Ok whatever. Lets just agree to disagree. You can continue to use whatever reason to justify whatever negative thoughts you have. If media has no effect, why do they broadcast things to demoralize the troops during wars? Brazil as a society is full of mixed people and they are far more tolerant of racial differences than the USA.


You really like misquoting me. I'm starting to see that now. But I never said the media has no effect. I don't care to go back and repeat myself but I was specifically talking about Japanese-Brazilians and NOT about the Iraqi war. OKAY?

It's not even about 'agreeing to disagree'-you just do not understand a damn thing. Your whole argument is based around the media whereas I can plainly see that it's much more complex than that which I have brought up time and time again.

And it's not like you even go that deeply into your argument either. Have you done any research in the Brazilian shows that you're talking about? You can't even seem to name any of the characters off the top of your head. All you're saying is 'it's the media, it's the media' and then runaway and come back.



Again you miss the point. National Geography and the Discovery Channel are shown on cable/satellite channel with minimal viewers while the TV show I was talking about was shown on the most popular TV channel in Brazil. While USA has like over 500+ channels to distract people, Brazil has far less. I am sure you know the difference.

I rarely miss the point. And if you think that National Geographic and Discovery Channel are inaccessible simply because they are on cable or satellite well I'm just going to have to say that you are flat out wrong. Besides, they are not the only outlets for these types of shows. There are a few channels that offer them on basic cable as well.

And you're saying that having more channels is a distraction is just ridiculous. Anything to suit your point eh?

[RebelAzn]

http://www.aznlover.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6242

Above is a link to a real Asian man's experience in South America.