Supreme Court upholds abortion ban

[cattygurl]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/04/19/MNGL2PB6GJ1.DTL

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=1380
^^ How it affects all women and men

http://lifestyle.msn.com/mindbodyandsoul/womenintheworld/articlemc.aspx?cp-documentid=4595719
^^ And a great article on one woman's experience

[wuwei]

How long before they overturn Roe?

[cattygurl]

I'm hoping that this craziness will retract and that will never happen.

[nskripchun]

http://lifestyle.msn.com/mindbodyandsoul/womenintheworld/articlemc.aspx?cp-documentid=4595719
^^ And a great article on one woman's experience

I don't normally get teary when I read stuff online, but this was very moving. I salute the author's courage in writing her personal story... it must have been incredibly difficult. It certainly gave me a lot to think about.

Speaking from a personal perspective, I don't necessarily oppose some government regulation of abortion, but I do question the wisdom of an outright ban that leaves no flexibility or choice to doctors and families stuck in heart-wrenching situations like the Voss family - it's the same sort of stupidity as mandatory sentencing laws, where the discretion of judges in sentencing is taken away. I mean, do we really want some of the most important decisions of our lives to be decided by an arbitrary standard that may or may not apply to our particular situation?

The issue of abortion in America is so polarized that I wonder if Americans will ever come to any sort of sensible middle ground. I think most pro-choice activists would admit that the so-called "partial birth abortion" procedure is one of solumn magnitude, even grostesque, since it can (and has been applied) to babies who progressed fairly far in their development. The procedure should be regulated to a limited extent to a narrow range of cases such as the Voss family's, and be closely monitored by specialized doctors who can help families make wise, informed choices.

The problem is that pro-choice activists fear the "slippery slope" of the legal system, which might conclude that ANY federal regulation of ANY kind of abortion might eventually lead to an outright ban - it's the same principle the pro-gun lobby applies to federal regulation of assault rifles, 10+ cartridge mags, etc... they fear ANY federal regulation of ANY aspect of firearms might lead to an outright ban. Even if pro-choice activists can agree that it's sensible to have some sort of regulation in this specific issue pertaining to abortion, they would never yield any legal ground in court for fear of laying the roadwork to a total ban.

...

On the flipside, my criticism of many pro-life activists (most of whom belong to the grossly misguided fundamentalist/evangelical Christian set) is that I believe all their energy is completely misdirected. While they claim to labor night and day for the "pro-life cause", they put a pathetic amount of effort into solving the root problems that fuel many abortions - all the effort spent picketing clinics, writing hatemail to doctors, and praying for dead Supreme Court justices would be MUCH better invested elsewhere.

Where are the vast masses of pro-lifers helping to eradicate poverty and homelessness through monetary donations, volunteering in community NPOs, and providing economic equity in jobs, housing, and health care? Where are the vast masses of pro-lifers in providing proper public education to our youth in schools and building positive relationships with teenage men and women that will assure them that their worth is far greater than the number of repetitions of sex they have? Where are the vast masses of pro-lifers in adopting the already thousands of unwanted children stuck in the overloaded American foster and adoption systems? If all these root problems were dealt with, there'd be no reason to be concerned with the legality of abortion - it wouldn't be necessary or even desired.

Of course, many pro-lifers hesitate to address those issues - perhaps it's an issue of laziness, as it takes a lot less effort to write a piece of hatemail compared to the time it would take to develop a meaningful, supportive relationship with a bunch of teenagers. Or maybe it's perhaps that many pro-lifers loathe to admit that they themselves are culpable in the problems that fuel abortions; they'd must rather make the issue the one that pregnant mothers who contemplate abortion are evil people rather than human beings who may ended up in unfortunate circumstances, for one reason or another.

[cattygurl]

I suppose I come from a very, very secular point regarding abortion.

I have debated this topic endless for years (17 years now, to be exact) with people from (later on with the advent of the internet) all over the US, and all over the world. I do not see a problem with having abortions safe, legal and accesible. Making it less accesible do not hamper the wealthy women- they generally tend to hurt the women that are young/poor/scared and fundamentally, most vulnerable.

As for the PBX (short-term for partial birth), it is an unplesant (to put it mildly) operation. That said, if the woman is to have an abortion for whatever reason, it should be a decision made between a doctor and a patient, with the woman's health as paramount and primary. The PBX denies that of many women- including some collegues- who have had PBX, who have all had PBX as a result of major problems in a wanted pregnancy- because it was the best choice. PBX is known to often be the preferable choice over cesarian or other 2nd trimester abortions due to compromised immune system, caridac problems, etc. I'm taking myself out of the pregnancy option myself, BUT if I was to become pregnant and IF i was to ever need a late 2nd / 3rd trimester abortion to save my life or because of a severe fetal defect, I would be one of the women where a PBX will be a very likely possibility and far safer to my life than the alternatives, so this does hit close to home for me, even though I have no plans of biological motherhood. I will add that I am enraged- ENRAGED- that politicans are politicizing a medical decision- one that is often painful and devastating- that should be left to doctors and patients.

Is abortion and its entailing procedures unpleasant? I would say so, and I would say so as someone that has had one. I absolutely don't regret my choice whatsoever, I am grateful that I had the access I did- and for myself, it was something that I had considered far before I got myself in the situation where I needed it. Was it ever an easy one? No. However, I never expect any life-changing and serious decisions to be easy or without consequence. I can honestly say that if abortion was illegal- I would, hell or high water- find a way to procure one and risk becoming a statistic of thousands of women that did every year from unsanitary, illegal abortions. Especially in my case- where a pregnancy to term could permanently debilitate me. I would also make sure that my parents would never, ever find out. To this day, you will have to KILL me first to get me to talk or admit this to my parents, especially my mother, knowing her superstition and attitude regarding sexuality in general. So, I sympathize with many women that feel that they cannot go to their family for support. I could not, I would not, and I will not- not for this decision.

The older I get, I've been more open about sharing my personal experience with this issue, because it is something that almost 50% of women will experience- an abortion, whether the pregnancy is wanted or otherwise. Yet, it's still considered an extremely alienating experience. Many women feel as they have nobody to talk to. The stats for the AA community echos the national (@ 45 percent, I believe), and I have not seen many Asian-American women that is sharing their experience (I've met 1 other, she's in NYC). I do this not for attention, but because I was greatly helped by other women during my difficult time that shared their experience with me and was supportive. I've also received e-mails from several AA women saying that reading my experience for them was helpful and cathartic. As I get older, I find that it's MORE important for me to open up and share.

Very few men think of abortion as something that doesn't happen to them- as a somewhat foreign concept, which is understandable. Just remember that you may never know, but it's something that may have affected your mother/aunt, affect your sister, and affect your daughter. Why would you not want them to have safe, legal and accessible care in their time of need? I can tell you one thing- if one thing that crosses class, religious and racial lines are the looks on women's face when they are facing an unwanted pregnancy.

I, for one, know that fear. I've lived it, I've seen it, and I will do everything I can to fucking make sure that women have ALL their options and their bodily integrity respected.

[cattygurl]

As for the forced gestation crowd (i hate the label pro-life) , for many of them, it has nothing to do with women, it has nothing to do with babies- it has everything to do with THEM- and wanting to impose THEIR will on others without having to take responsibility for the end result of the imposition. I absolutely will not even debate with those that are opposed to birth control or sex education anymore.

Especially working at a clinic where we did receive threatening calls, threatening mail, threatening messages left on hoods of employees' cars, etc- that was the main reason I quit working in a clinic setting. I needed a break from feeling threatened- mostly by men that would never have to go through this experience.

[atlasien]

One of the creepiest things about the pro-life crowd is their worship of adoption. I hang out in a lot of adoption places, but I avoid those pro-life pro-adoption people like the plague. Many believe it is the duty of lower-income white women to provide healthy white infants for their betters.

[cattygurl]

^^ Ugh, that really disgusts me, that kind of thought.

I think adoption is a valid option that should be explored, and I have always encouraged it for people. BUT- being a birth mother isn't easy. It's also not an answer for everyone, and I just don't like how it's pushed as a simple and easy option. I don't know if you know of any pro-choice adoption boards or groups or resources, but if you do, let me know. I would like a resource where it can give a balanced idea about being a birth mother and what it entails- the realistic pros and cons- rather than the simplified, rosy and religious agendas that many seem to present.

[atlasien]

You can go to soulofadoption.com and check out the families of origin support boards. The forum focus is pro-choice, pro-GLBT and pro-adoption reform. There are quite a few birth mothers that post there although I learned they mainly prefer to be called "first mothers" or "natural mothers". They run the gamut from women who had the babies flat out stolen to women who felt they were pretty informed about their choice. People there are generally friendly and communicate well despite deep disagreements but sometimes the place just goes nuts, given the deep emotions around the subject. If you think this forum has flame wars... The China adoptive parents board is interesting but often kind of disturbing for me to read. There used to be an ABC pre-adoptive couple that posted there. There is another forum I go to called www.taoforumnetwork.com. It also has a families of origin section, but is less active.

One issue often not discussed is that the experience varies hugely by race. Young white women are often under intense pressure to place their babies for adoption. For African-Americans the focus is on keeping the baby in the family. Sometimes young African-American women who feel strongly they don't want to raise their baby or let their family raise the baby, sometimes they will just leave the baby in the hospital because they don't think anyone would take their baby in a private adoption, and the baby goes into the foster care system. Sometimes they place with special agencies that send their babies to Canada or Europe where they think there will be less racial prejudice against them (yes, America does international adoption!) Asian-American women rarely if ever relinquish, probably because there is not nearly as much religious stigma against birth control and abortion.

The most radical anti-adoption people don't think it should ever be done. I even heard a saying from them "first choice, keep your baby, second choice, have an abortion, third choice, kill yourself". I don't agree with that saying :( but it goes to show relinquishing a child has an enormous emotional impact that lasts a lifetime. I think adoption is a valid choice for a woman who has had a baby and is determined not to parent for whatever reasons, but there are a lot of really complicated factors involved.

Even in foster care system adoptions where I am, it's mostly recognized that it's not like you're choosing between which family is better. From the point of view of a child, staying in a kind-of-crappy "D" biological family is much better than the trauma of being removed and placed in an "A" adoptive family. It's only when you have an absent family or an "F" family where the child is being massively traumatized through abuse and neglect that removal becomes the best choice.

Kind of hijacking the thread but it's obviously a magnetic subject for me :)

[cattygurl]

http://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-views-on-abortion.html

This is a riveting post from a man's experience. highly recommended.

Abortion and adoption is a very complicated choice, and I often am dismayed at how people simplify the complexity that all choices- adoption, abortion, parenting, etc- can have on a person's life. Adoption is a complex decision as well as abortion, and parenting can be challenging in a very different way than both. I'm for having realistic discussions and unbiased choices for all three.

I've noticed that there are more pressure for caucasian or caucasian-looking women to adopt. It was something I didn't realize as much, but I remember talking to an volunteer escort @ the clinic. He was a retired cop whose daughter is a nurse and got him involved with us. Good man. Anyhoo, I was having a smoke with him outside the clinic when he mentioned something. He pointed out that the protesters (mostly white) outside the clinic would beeline and focus on white-looking women with much more fervor than minority women. I've also noticed some of the derogatory name calling was more focused on minorty women sometimes, while some protesters used a more light touch (catching more flies with honey tactic) to the white women. They wanted to shame the colored women, and dissuade the white women.

[cattygurl]

Obviously, this is an issue near and dear to me.

Anyhoo, nskripchun- I'm not trying to pick on you at all, and in fact, I'm really glad that you've taken the time to reply to this post in a thoughtful manner.

Speaking from a personal perspective, I don't necessarily oppose some government regulation of abortion

This is a phrase, that I've found, to be tossed around very frequently and lightly in conversation with a lot of people on this subject (again, I want to clarify that I'm not saying that nskripchun meant it lightly or that his intention was flippant). I'm mentioning this because people- and a lot of men- (again, I'm not trying to pick on anyone)- don't see the abortion issue as seriously as it can be to some women. I just want to note that before you talk about government restriction- also think about whether your bodily integrity is sacred to you, and whether you want govenment intrusion in medical decisionmaking, your fitness to be a parent or not, etc, your fertility, etc. Also, think about the hundreds of thousands of women who risk their lives and die around the world to obtain illegal abortions.

According to the World Health Organization, about 13% of the 500,000 deaths worldwide from pregnancy-related causes each year are associated with unsafe abortion; in Latin America, the proportion is as high as 21%. In Egypt, abortion-related problems are responsible for about one-fifth of all obstetric and gynecologic admissions. Indeed, in some developing countries, women suffering from complications of illegal abortion account for two of every three maternity hospital beds in large urban hospitals, consuming as much as one-half of obstetrics and gynecology budgets. From the Guttmacher Institute

For many women, it is very much a matter of life and death, and that's never something to be taken lightly.

[nskripchun]

No offense taken, catty. My apologies if I sounded too casual about the idea of "regulation."

I totally agree that men (including myself) can sometimes tend to talk about matters of abortion only on a certain level, and we have to accept that ultimately, it's the voices of women that carry the most weight on the issue since they are the most personally and deeply vested in issues of pregnancy, abortion, and childbirth by virtue of human biology.