Asian commits US histories worst Mass shooting.

[AcousticDoc]

Damn all over the news right now. 32 confirmed dead and over 20+ wounded at Virginia Tech.

[atlasien]

What source says the shooter was Asian? Was that on TV?

Although it's a disgusting tragedy no matter what race or ethnicity is involved.

[WuZhao]

I saw it on a few news sites. I guess the official indentity, whether student or not, has not been reported. Not sure how he died either, suicide or got taken down by the police.

[AcousticDoc]

What source says the shooter was Asian? Was that on TV?

Although it's a disgusting tragedy no matter what race or ethnicity is involved.

It's not official yet. But news interviews on ABC with wounded student are reporting that it was an Asian male in his 20s.

[Heyyu]

Damn, I heard about this on the news but I didn't know it was an Asian person that did it. Regardless, this is very sad and I honestly feel bad for the victims and I'm curious what motivated this guy to go on a killing spree. I hope I'm wrong, but something tells me this incident might be partly racially-motivated, and the media will probably have a field day with this.

[Justin]

According to nbc, the guy was Chinese

http://www.nbc5.com/news/12203216/detail.html?rss=chi&psp=news

[lycheng]

If the guy was a Chinese foreign student, then this is the second college shooting perpetuated by a Chinese foreign student. The first (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Lu) took place in the Physics department at the University of Iowa in 1991.

Actually, there's a movie just released based on the Iowa incident called Dark Matter (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/27/science/27dark.html?ex=1332648000&en=320d3ee4b25110f6&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss). Angry Asian Man (http://www.angryasianman.com/2007/04/dark-side-of-academia.html) even wrote about it a couple of weeks ago.

lycheng

[averagejoette]

theres also speculation that there was a lot of planning for the mass shooting, and the witnesses say that it was an asian male. They also say that the motive was an incident that occurred earlier, but I didn't read about what specifically had happened. Theres also some news that someone was arrested this morning, not too sure about this.

[ellencho]

Is it wrong that the first person who comes to mind is ric?

[Dialectic]

I adjusted the title of the thread. Looks to be a visa student from Shanghai. We'll no doubt be hearing more about this in the days to come.

[jaehwan]

This is really sad and unfortunate. I feel really bad for the victims and their families.

[lycheng]

This is really sad and unfortunate. I feel really bad for the victims and their families.

Indeed. For thirty-two people, it should have been just another Monday at school, going about their normal routine of getting up and going to class.

And then some screwed up guy decided to get back at the world with extreme violence.

You know, why don't these guys ever just end their own miserable lives? Why do they have to take innocent lives with them? Yes, that's a simple-minded question, but it's something I just can't understand.

lycheng

[kwak76]

yeah the person who did commit this is indeed an asian male. Don't know if he is an international student or a American Asian. Just waiting to hear about more information about this.

Don't know if this crime will cause a backlash to the Asian community or if he indeed an international student a backlash to the international students.

I'm more concerned about why he did it?

[awong]

I'm more concerned about why he did it?

i wonder too, I was reading stuff how it may be like the gang lu in 91

[kwak76]

gang lu 91?
Can you feel me in about that? Is that the incident when an Asian kid took a rifle and started shooting people on a college campus?

I don't know if that's the one. That maybe the other major mass killing committed by an asian. The thing with that one is that from what I read or heard the motivation was never revealed.

[kwak76]

lycheng,

We are not sure what his motivation was for the shooting maybe he was a miserable person and full of hate or whatever and wanted to let it out.

This may sound fucked up but it may also be a cry for help. I know it sounds fucked up but I think if someone snaps and decides to do a killing spree it's like a release for them.
It's kind of like nobody cared about my problems or my issues so fuck you I'm going to kill you because nobody cared. I don't know ..i mean I'm just sepculating here about people motivation in doing mass murder but this is kind of like the Columbine shooting.

Nobody took the time and interest in those lost boys and they exploded . I think by killing people it shows to the world I matter.

[awong]

gang lu 91?
Can you feel me in about that? Is that the incident when an Asian kid took a rifle and started shooting people on a college campus?

I don't know if that's the one. That maybe the other major mass killing committed by an asian. The thing with that one is that from what I read or heard the motivation was never revealed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Lu

[Liang]

I saw a livejournal of a guy a lot of people believe carried this out. Everything seemed to match until he straight up posted that he was not the killer (it is obvious too as the killer is dead). It was pretty strange because everything seemed to match. He's a definite gun lover and there's even an entry about him breaking up with his girlfriend, which was possibly the cause of the shootings. But this was crazy and my condolesences go out to the families of those dead and wounded. It's fucking insane that someone would do something so cowardly.

Does anyone else have the feeling that soon we're going to be hearing a lot of shit being thrown at the Asian community? We don't seem to be catching a break these days.

[Dialectic]

Hmm, the database has saved my changes to Acoustic Doc's original title, but it hasn't been reflected in the name of the thread. Anyway it should say "Asian" and not "Asian-American." What's happened is terrible; the only positive I can see coming out of this is possibly a stronger demand for an anti-gun lobby, but given the power of the pro-gun camp, it's not that likely.

[NoName]

ABC News:
The shooter was a Chinese international student (24).

A break-up with a girlfriend could be it, for there was a comment about him and a woman shouting. He killed the dorm RA, who is black; the RA and the woman were the first two killed. Will the president of Virginia Tech. be fired? I mean they stated that there was two hour period between the first and second shootings.

[AcousticDoc]

Hmm, the database has saved my changes to Acoustic Doc's original title, but it hasn't been reflected in the name of the thread. Anyway it should say "Asian" and not "Asian-American."

I tried to change it as well but it won't change either. When the eye witnesses where describing an Asian I just assumed it was an Asian American since it was an American Univeristy.



Does anyone else have the feeling that soon we're going to be hearing a lot of shit being thrown at the Asian community? We don't seem to be catching a break these days.

They actually had to shut down the largest Facebook group (80,000+ members) dedicated to the incident several times today for racist remarks.

[nskripchun]

They actually had to shut down the largest Facebook group (80,000+ members) dedicated to the incident several times today for racist remarks.

Not surprising...

I'm already bracing myself for the waves of racist and xenophobic comments if it's indeed true that the shooter is an Asian male exchange student.

[Subwaybrum]

Gun-loving student wrongly accused

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/the-internet-thinks-its-me/2007/04/17/1176696821109.html

[pirates_of_prowse]

The British news networks keep flashing the same two images :

1. Of an asian male being apprehended by security, with a rifle pointed to the back of his head.

2. The same man, handcuffed against a wall, with the Swat team nearby.


This being an American incident, I'm relatively certain, there will still be some form of backlash in my hometown...any excuse for the narrow minded idiots who live here.

[Lum]

The British news networks keep flashing the same two images :

1. Of an asian male being apprehended by security, with a rifle pointed to the back of his head.

2. The same man, handcuffed against a wall, with the Swat team nearby.


This being an American incident, I'm relatively certain, there will still be some form of backlash in my hometown...any excuse for the narrow minded idiots who live here.

Wait, does that mean he is alive and in custody? I thought that link I just followed said he killed himself.

This is harsh. I hope his Asian-ness doesn't get blown up into some 'contributing factor' on Dateline. Then you can expect backlash for sure.

[WuZhao]

Gun control. How does a foreign exchange student who just got here in August of 2006 get a hold of guns and so much amunitiion? Saw a quote somewhere that said a number of the victims had multiple shots in them.

Also, he apparently lived on campus. How does he live on campus and accumulate so much fire arms/bullets. Someone should have known. And apparently it was fairly long in planning.

Also curious what drove him to it, but agree it will definitely reflect poorly on the chinese community in the US.

[Justin]

No it won't cause the guy's Korean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108

[No name no. 5]

Don't know if this crime will cause a backlash to the Asian community or if he indeed an international student a backlash to the international students.


As far as backlash goes it doesn't matter at all whether he was Asian or Asian American. Both communities will get it to the same degree, and the people behind it won't pretend to care about the difference.

[atlasien]

Damn, he was an English major too.

It's such a weird reaction being ashamed of a mass murderer who resembles you in certain points. ARRGH. Damn, damn, damn.

Here are two posts from a site that give some indication of how the racist spin might get going:

http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/5638.html
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/5641.html

I sincerely hope most of the media coverage takes a more productive outlook and concentrates more on supporting the victims and making sure there are better safety systems in place against stuff like this happening again.

[No name no. 5]

Here are two links:

http://killfile.newsvine.com/_news/2007/04/16/666369-shootings-on-virginia-techs-campus-at-least-33-dead
http://killfile.newsvine.com/_news/2007/04/17/668114-the-aftermath-updates-from-blacksburg

to some coverage that was updated as the event occurred. The author of both articles works in the history department of VT and was constantly providing up to date information as the tragedy unfolded. His coverage of this was (and to some extent still is) more informative and unbiased than most mass media coverage. The first article is the one from yesterday and the second he put up this morning to continue coverage of the aftermath.

[Dialectic]

Korea fears prejudice with shooting link
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4722400.html

The news cycle is just heating up. Prepare for massive media and public stupidity (more than the usual).

[aelward]

It's interesting to note how most News outlets are describing Cho as a South Korean student, when in fact, he's a 1.5 genner-- he's apparently been here since 1992, when he would have been about 8 or so.

[Dialectic]

They consider it significant that he doesn't have citizenship; it helps to dis-identify from him by implying he's an unassimilated, unintegrated "alien." It's also the reason why the SK consulate got involved and made a statement.

Just like after 9/11, note the minority reaction: everyone's afraid of getting white people angry, because when white people get angry, countries get destabilized.

[jaehwan]

There's a good Salon editorial on racial profiling for the VT massacre here:

http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2007/04/17/vtech_korea/print.html

[atlasien]

Blamed so far...

- The university
- cops
- Koreans
- Americans
- Korean-Americans
- Darwin (http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/04/darwin_shot_the_vt_students.php)
- gay people (Fred Phelps is springing into action)
- too many guns
- not enough guns because if more students had guns they could have shot him
- co-ed dorms and the spiritual emptiness of English majors (http://phibetacons.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YTU2NmNiYTM0ZjVlNjcxYWYxY2ZkOGU2NGEwNWY5OWI=)
- Asians who study too hard
- immigrants
- foreign students
- Muslims
- Pakistanis
- Chinese nationalists
- Uighurs

No one has managed to blame Mexicans so far, which is surprising.

Right now a bunch of people are just throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks. I hope it will mostly slide off.

[Tyger Durden]

does any one know about the Gun Laws in Virginia? That would clear some (but not all) issues up.

I know that the Colorado Gun Laws made it possible for the two shooters in the Colombine incident to obtain and use fully-automatic weapons (assault rifles).

Whatever the case may be, I have to blame the lax Gun Laws of individual States. Of course, anybody can obtain weapons of their choice no matter the legal obstacles if they are truly focused/obsessed in doing so, but the relative ease in obtaining guns is something to consider here.

[blockthebox]

Blamed so far...

- The university
- cops
- Koreans
- Americans
- Korean-Americans
- Darwin (http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/04/darwin_shot_the_vt_students.php)
- gay people (Fred Phelps is springing into action)
- too many guns
- not enough guns because if more students had guns they could have shot him
- co-ed dorms and the spiritual emptiness of English majors (http://phibetacons.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YTU2NmNiYTM0ZjVlNjcxYWYxY2ZkOGU2NGEwNWY5OWI=)
- Asians who study too hard
- immigrants
- foreign students
- Muslims
- Pakistanis
- Chinese nationalists
- Uighurs

No one has managed to blame Mexicans so far, which is surprising.

Right now a bunch of people are just throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks. I hope it will mostly slide off.

Ha! Yeah. My favorite as of an hour ago was the "not enough guns" argument. Incredible.

[lycheng]

Another example of prejudiced reporting:

Check out the BBC News online article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6563565.stm). The first two paragraphs read:

Police have named a student who shot dead at least 30 people at a US university as Cho Seung-hui, a 23-year-old from South Korea.

Cho was studying English and had been living on the university campus. He killed himself after the rampage.No BBC, Cho wasn't just studying English. Just studying English implies he was in an ESL program or something. The fact of the matter is Cho was an English Major. That's a huge difference. One has to be quite proficient in English to be an English major.

Ha! Yeah. My favorite as of an hour ago was the "not enough guns" argument. Incredible.

Indeed. While I can see how someone with a gun in the building could have shot Cho before he continued to kill, that hardly justifies allowing more guns in society.

In my humble opinion, the people who argue for more guns and legalization of concealed weapons miss one crucial point: Allowing for concealed weapons would probably result, in the long run, more deaths.

Deaths from accidental discharges and crimes of passion shootings would most likely skyrocket if we allowed people to carry firearms without control.

[Addendum] From the L.A. Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-main18apr18,0,6090568.story?coll=la-home-headlines):

For a university that emphasizes engineering, Virginia Tech has a robust English program, with about 500 majors. The department has three tracks -- literature, professional writing and creative writing -- and Cho was in creative writing. [my emphasis]

Thanks for getting that right, L.A. Times.

lycheng

[atlasien]

Here in Georgia they're trying to create an insane law that would forbid employers to forbid their employees from carrying guns into the employers' parking lots.

In other words, if you owned a small business you wouldn't be able to keep an employee from bringing a gun to work.

It's so crazy that the local chapter of the NRA is actually disagreeing with the national organization and came out against it.

[Vetrean]

I think it's kinda sad how people are just jumping all over the race thing. I mean, he's one guy out of a couple hundred thousand.

I guess it's cold comfort that this wasn't a Korean dude flying an airplane into a building, else we might just be packed off to camps at this point. D:

Everyone's stressing the 'race' and the 'alien' status, but nobody's really trying to prevent misconceptions arising. I suppose it's only to be expected(because when has mainstream media passed up a chance to make a better story out of this), but it still kinda hurts.

Wonder if we're going to be seeing a few Korean murders sometime soon. And if we do, will the media bother covering it?

[awong]

Everyone's stressing the 'race' and the 'alien' status, but nobody's really trying to prevent misconceptions arising. I suppose it's only to be expected(because when has mainstream media passed up a chance to make a better story out of this), but it still kinda hurts.


I noticed this also, and when I spoke with the newspaper today about it, I emphasized this and how anyone of any race can display similar traits to Cho and how by continuing to state this, it could cause more problems

[nskripchun]

Article on the "warning signs":

Suspects writing 'macabre' and 'twisted' (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18155081/)

It appears his fellow Creative Writing majors weren't overly fond of his work.

[No name no. 5]

Article on the "warning signs":

Suspects writing 'macabre' and 'twisted' (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18155081/)

It appears his fellow Creative Writing majors weren't overly fond of his work.
I've read the two plays that are leaked. One of them (the McBeef one) has slightly disturbing themes but is fairly mild compared to how the press is playing it out. The other one (I think it's called Mr. Brownstone) is much, much darker. I'm also surprised at his rudimentary writing seeing as he's a senior majoring in English.

[Justin]

don't know if this has been posted but..
kenneth eng on va tech - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDsFAqAcH7o

[kwak76]

yeah, within the Korean community there is a fear of backlash by whitey. At the office I work at there is a Korean guy that works next door to me. He has Korean friends who are international students and many of them skip class today because they were afriad of the back lash.

I know it sounds fucked up and you want to hear what's more fucked up. Today I was at a Korean restaurant to get lunch and there was a couple of "ajuma" talking about the shooting. Believe it or not the ajuma was wishing that the killer was a chinese guy not a Korean guy. I think the reason why they wish it was a chinese guy is because in thier mindset Koreans are better than that. I know it sounds fucked up and shows the intra-racism within the Asian community.

anyway from what I heard within the Korean communtiy one of the reason why he decided to kill people is because he broked up with his girl friend. His ex-girl friend cheated on him or something.

I don't know how much weight that has to it. Personally it sounds like gossip.
One person told me that he killed his girl friend first at the dorm and after taht went after the guy that cheated with his girl friend or ex-girl friend.

I think he was trying to find that guy in the classroom and decided to off everyone. (Again I don't know if this is true but within the Korean community you ARE GETTING MAJOR GOSSIP.)

[kwak76]

what the fuck is Ken Eng trying to accomplish with that? Was that suppose to be satire?

I don't find it funny. I wouldn't wish this to happen to anyone. White, black, asian or whatever.

We didn't win and no I'm not saying this because I am afriad of white people backlash but no one wins in mass murder.

Who the fuck is Ken Eng?

[theme]

^Well the NYT interviewed his roommate and he said that the perp never interacted with anyone, and was never seen with a girl so I don't know how accurate that is. Right now I'm just going to assume that he's another disenfranchised kid that took out his pain on the rest of the world.

[No name no. 5]

Today I was at a Korean restaurant to get lunch and there was a couple of "ajuma" talking about the shooting. Believe it or not the ajuma was wishing that the killer was a chinese guy not a Korean guy. I think the reason why they wish it was a chinese guy is because in thier mindset Koreans are better than that.
Do you have any reason to believe your interpretation there? After 9/11 a lot of Asians were relieved that Arabs did it because they new that a backlash was going to happen and they didn't want it to go against their own community. Still a bit fucked up, but not as elitist as your assumption.

Although any Korean that hopes the shooter being Chinese will protect them from backlash is dreaming. If a big backlash occurs the worst offenses will be committed by people that don't care where you're from as long as you're Asian.


anyway from what I heard within the Korean communtiy one of the reason why he decided to kill people is because he broked up with his girl friend. His ex-girl friend cheated on him or something.



This is actually a rumor that was circulating almost immediately after it happened, not just among the Korean community. I think some early news reports were guessing this as well. Nothing about a girlfriend has been confirmed at this point, I don't think.

[AcousticDoc]

Did NBC really put the korean national flag behind cho's picture?

[AcousticDoc]

This is disgusting. Why do some Asians (like Eng) feel the need to do shit like this: http://berkeley.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2299689426

[kikiandlala]

This is disgusting. Why do some Asians (like Eng) feel the need to do shit like this: http://berkeley.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2299689426



Ugh, Eng is still at it? Please can someone just kick him in the nuts already! Seriously the guy does nothing good for anybody and is only masturbating with his own ego.

[Blue11_96]

I need to get this off my chest... I live in a Caucasian world, and I am hoping y'all brothers can understand.

I used to frequent this board. However, work and life took over...

After reading his plays, and all the new stories. He struck me as a lonely, immature kid crying for help. Specifically, he needed his parents.

Unfortunately, being Asian American myself, I understand the absence of communication in our culture. You are taught to obey, keep your mouth shut, obey, and obey some more.

It is so typical, the father is emotionally absent, the mother spoils the kid but offers nothing substantial or valuable. He was left to fend for himself when he entered college. When things started going badly, instead of throwing him a lifesaver, the parents probably turned everything off.

I can relate to the anger, I can relate to the desperation... What I don't understand is... where is the fight in him? In both of his plays, he seemed to relish in being the victim. There is nothing honorable in death, there is nothing honorable in murder, there is nothing honorable in a statement made in blood.

If I can impart any wisdom to the "Ken Eng"'s and other wannabes, "Think different, overcome, be someone you want to be, not someone you were meant to be". There is nothing worth glorifying with Seung Cho.

[atlasien]

Here's an interesting (but depressing) prediction of the shape of media coverage.

http://brownfemipower.com/?p=1256

[nskripchun]

Do you have any reason to believe your interpretation there? After 9/11 a lot of Asians were relieved that Arabs did it because they new that a backlash was going to happen and they didn't want it to go against their own community. Still a bit fucked up, but not as elitist as your assumption.


Very true...

People of color are very aware of the backlash caused by events like these. An African American friend of mine confessed to me in a casual conversation that he was glad that the shooter wasn't black. I don't think it's a stretch of imagination to guess that there are probably Arab Americans or Muslim Americans who are also relieved that the shooter was Korean American.

Yeah, it's definitely f'ked up that whenever tragedies like this happen, us colored folks have to wary of the reaction of ignorant people who are stupid to realize that actions by certain screwed individuals usually has nothing to do with whatever racial / national / religious affiliation they belong to.

[Rabid]

Here is an article on Cho's gf:

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=45582&in_page_id=34
(click on link for photos)

'The girl who led to massacre'

Tuesday, April 17, 2007

Emily Hilscher
This is the face of the teenage student who may have sparked the biggest gun massacre in US history.

Emily Jane Hilscher, 18, was killed on the fourth floor of a dormitory at Virginia Tech University as a gunman unleashed his terror rampage.

It is thought she was the ex-girlfriend of the unnamed killer who then went onto kill Emily's neighbour 22-year-old Ryan Clark who had tried to help.


Emily and Ryan lived next door to each other in rooms 4040 and 4042, according to friends.

Friends of the teenage girl, who was a 'grade A' student, have described her as a vibrant girl with an engaging personality.



"Emily was a kind and wonderful person who always put a smile on my face," wrote pal Jessica Gould.

Clark - a prefect in the dormitory - was in his fifth year at Virginia Tech and a leader in the school's marching band.

"He was such a friendly person," said friend Sarah Davis, 21, a trombone player in the band.



"When I came in as a freshman, I was scared to death. He was always really friendly. If he didn't know you, he'd introduce himself.

"He was like, 'I want to know everybody."

Columbia County Sheriff's Office in Georgia confirmed that 22-year-old Ryan Clark from Martinez, Georgia, was one of the first shooting victims.



Hilscher, from Rappahannock County, Virginia, was confirmed dead by Rappahannock Country administrator John McCarthy, a friend of the Hilscher family.

The list of the dead is known to include at least four staff members working inside the Norris Hill building.

A message on the front page of the school's engineering department website paid tribute to two of the staff.

It read: "In Memoriam. Professor Kevin Granata and Professor Liviu Librescu who died on April 16, 2007 wwhile serving Virginia Tech."

Prof Kevin Granata was killed while holding his course in the Norris Hall building.

Professor Liviu Librescu, originally from Romania, was killed alongside Granata.

A third instructor in the engineering department, Professor GV Loganathan, was also killed in the massacre.

Loganathan - of Indian decent - wass teaching in the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering when the gunman went on rampage.

His colleague Prof Raman Kumar confirmed the news of Loganathan's death A language teacher, German instructor Jamie Bishop, 35, was also confirmed dead.

He had been leading a class when a gunman burst through the doors an shot him in the head, according to witnesses.

"I don't think he was the type of person who had an enemy," said Troy Paddock, a close friend of Bishop.

"He was a very friendly person. He did weekly gatherings for students out of class to practice German where they could talk about anything. He was a nice and helpful person." Bishop's wife, Dr. Stefanie Hofer, is another instructor in the school's German department.

[Kuroyama]

I read online that from this guys writing he appeared to need help or counseling or something. Its rough not having those resources available. Even a sounding board of a friend? Someone to listen to what he had to say.

Im not trying to jump on anybodys blame-train, but his plays got read in class, and apparently his state of mind wasnt a big secret. So when you meet someone like that...who steps up?

To those on the site of Asian heritage, please be careful over the next few weeks. I'm not suggesting hiding from anyone or thing, but just a general caution. Now that the media is putting this guys face all over the news along with; 'largest mass shooting in US history', you never know what self-styled revenge-vigilante is going to come out of the woodwork.

Please just be safe.

[aelward]

I read both of his plays, Mr. Brownstone and Richard McBeef. I actually thought the second one was pretty funny on the surface; but then I stepped back and thought about what the writer did and it changes the context quite a bit...

[pirates_of_prowse]

It's no surprise that the media continue to refer to Cho Seung-Hui as an alien resident. They throw this "Korean" thing in there just to make white people prejudiced against all Asians. Again, this just goes to prove that just because you're in this country doesn't make you an American. You might be a doctor, a lawyer, or a judge, but despite your professional standing, you'll find that you're still a victim of Americanism. We all catch the same hell, which is one of the things that's good about this racist system -- it makes us all one.

[atlasien]

Ha! Yeah. My favorite as of an hour ago was the "not enough guns" argument. Incredible.

Here's one even better. This guy is actually blaming the victims.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YzllOTU0MDUzY2NhZDE2YmViYmRiNmE5ZjM1OWQxYTU=

What a blowhard scumbag. "but it was just a .22"... One of my friends got shot in the chest once with a .22 and almost died. The bullet is so light it ricochets around inside you. I have to stop reading this stuff for a while, it's just getting too nasty.

[Ike]

The wrongfully accused Wayne Chiang also believes that more guns would have alleviated the situation:
"I am a firm believer that if Virginia Tech students were allowed to conceal carry, this situation could have ended sooner." (from the link someone posted earlier)

[pirates_of_prowse]

It saddens me whenever I read about an Asian brother taking his own life. When something like this happens, noticed how the press skilfully takes the burden off society for its failure to correct the negative conditions which affects Asian Americans living in this country.

The truth is, Asian Americans have no say so in the way this country is run. We have no say-so whatsoever, other than to live here, and to pay the highest price for the lowest form of treatment. The Asian man is a victim of this, a victim of economic exploitation, political exploitation and every other kind. He's so frustrated, so pent up, he has so much explosive energy within him, that he would like to get at the one who's castrating him. But the one who's castrating him cannot be reached. So that when the Asian man explodes, the one that he wants to get at isn't there. So he destroys whoevers nearest to him. And instead of the sociologists analyzing it as it actually is, trying to understand it as it actually is, again they cover up the real issue, and they use the press to make it appear that this gunman was mentally disturbed. No, it's not as simple as that. But they try and project the image to the public that he was. And they ignore the fact that he is a victim of this corrupt, vicious, hypocritical system that has castrated the Asian man; and the only way the Asian man can get back at it is to strike it in the only way he knows how.

I don't condone violence. But at the same time, I understand fully, why this guy went berzerk. I believe that if there was some kind of program in place, to help benefit all Asians, particularly young Asians, this latest tragedy could have been averted. Cho Seung-Hui - he had no one to turn to; no particular direction to help offload his negative energy and channel it into something positive.

It’s important for us to see that the only way that our problem is going to be solved, will be to establish some kind of program which will provide a solution that will benefit all Asians living here in the West. Because it’s not going to be changed by putting out polls, implying that Asians are satisfied with the rate of progress in this country. This is deluding yourself. And my contention is that White people do themselves a disservice by putting out these kinds of things to make it appear that Asians are satisfied, when in reality the most explosive situation, racially, that has ever existed in this country, exists right now. And all your so called responsible leaders, when they speak about the situation, they say everything is in check. Yet every day you find Asian children becoming more explosive than ever.

If this latest incident provokes a hostile backlash from the American public, I hope the Asian community will stand a firm ground. Regardless of what terrible crimes Cho Seung Hui may have committed, he’s still a blood brother, and we have to ensure that no amount of outside pressure will divide our people. I'm only too aware of how easy it is for the Asian community to distance themselves from violent individuals. Example - Chai Vang.

[atlasien]

I can see where you're coming from, p_o_p, but maybe you should think about tempering your sympathy for that guy.

Yes, the enormous stresses of racism probably contributed to his mental decline. But being a victim doesn't mean you should get a license to victimize others. The message "victimization creates explosive people, so don't victimize others" isn't very logical. The people who are the most victimized -- women working in sweatshops or sex trafficked, institutionalized people -- have very little power to hurt others.

That guy is not my brother. He gave up any claim to that through his disgusting actions. And if he was my real, biological brother I would be saying the same thing.

[minbo]

No you don't understand why he went berserk. Unless somehow magically you actually knew him and he confided his entire psyche with you. Somehow I doubt that.

And yes, he was mentally disturbed. A total wackjob, nutcase. What damaged him? I don't know, it certainly could have been oppression by "the man", or it could have been a crushing home life. Perhaps he was sexually abused when he was young by a priest. How about overdose of playing violent video games. A undiscovered stroke, tumor that impaired his frontal lob that influences the ability to distinguish between right and wrong.

It's disgusting that you are jumping all over this, when you know next to nothing about the people involved and what ACTUALLY happened, trying to use it to promote your political cause. You sir, are no better than Jack Thomas.

[Ike]

Pirates, if you're going to feel for fellow Asians, there was an Asian American student killed, as well as a South Asian professor. The NY Times website has a list of the the victims here: http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20070418_VICTIMS_GRAPHIC.html. One of the girls looks like she might be hapa.

The gunman killed people indiscriminately. He was not railing against white oppression or the system. If you're going to feel bad for someone, feel bad for the family of Henry Lee, who will be suffering both from the loss of their son and from the inevitable backlash against Asian Americans.

[aelward]

I've noticed on Google news that the media has stopped using "South Korean" or "korean" in their headlines, and are using "Cho", "VA Gunman," "VA Shooter," and the like.

[aelward]

Here's one even better. This guy is actually blaming the victims.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YzllOTU0MDUzY2NhZDE2YmViYmRiNmE5ZjM1OWQxYTU=

What a blowhard scumbag. "but it was just a .22"... One of my friends got shot in the chest once with a .22 and almost died. The bullet is so light it ricochets around inside you. I have to stop reading this stuff for a while, it's just getting too nasty.

As a supposed "chickenhawk," he is probably all talk, no substance. He's the one who'd be sh!tting in his pants while wimpering in a corner, hoping someone ELSE would "make a run" at the shooter.

[pirates_of_prowse]

It's disgusting that you are jumping all over this, when you know next to nothing about the people involved and what ACTUALLY happened, trying to use it to promote your political cause. You sir, are no better than Jack Thomas.


Hey look, I'm not trying to promote any political cause here. I'm just offering my point of view on this matter. And here's another thing...maybe I don't know anything about the people involved, but at the same time, why is it that the major news networks continue to interview Cho Seung Hui's room mates, who claim to know next to nothing about the boy... instead of focusing all the coverage on a couple of clueless freshmans, CNN should go speak to his friends and relatives...people who actually knew him, and can act as a genuine voice on this matter.

[jaehwan]

And yes, he was mentally disturbed. A total wackjob, nutcase. What damaged him? I don't know, it certainly could have been oppression by "the man", or it could have been a crushing home life. Perhaps he was sexually abused when he was young by a priest. How about overdose of playing violent video games. A undiscovered stroke, tumor that impaired his frontal lob that influences the ability to distinguish between right and wrong.

It's disgusting that you are jumping all over this, when you know next to nothing about the people involved and what ACTUALLY happened, trying to use it to promote your political cause. You sir, are no better than Jack Thomas.

You're right, Pirates doesn't know for certain. I certainly have no sympathy for Cho. Obviously the main point of our discussion should be sympathy for the victims. Cho was undoubtedly a jerk; from what I'm reading, people actually expected him to blow up one day. You're right; it could have been anything that caused him to be the way he was.

At the same time, as long as we remember that the most important thing is the families and their victims, and as long as we all agree that what Cho did was inexcusable regardless of his circumstances, I don't see any harm in speculating that possibly it could have been race related. After all, it's happened twice before with Asian men in America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Lo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Lu

So I agree with you, Minbo, but I also don't think that Pirates was out of line. Could it be just an isolated incident that has nothing to do with race? Yes, absolutely.

But it doesn't hurt to question and speculate given the fact that it has happened before with Asian American men and the fact that we might be able to use some proactive thinking to reduce the number of such incidences.

[A_BoyNamedSiu]

Hey look, I'm not trying to promote any political cause here. I'm just offering my point of view on this matter. And here's another thing...maybe I don't know anything about the people involved,

I think your projecting your own personal hang ups on someone else's sickness. We've all had feelings of powerlessness, helplessness and inadequacy at one time or another. And we've all had power trip fantasies, some even violent in nature. But there's a big difference from dreaming, and actually doing. As much as you might like to think you could act out some of your fantasies. a lot of people don't. It's those who are sick, mentally unstable and who are in need help who do act on those fantasies.

[wuwei]

Just look at the sensationalism in this thread so far, before anything was released, everyone was like omg he is Chinese, as if it matters as long as you have a yellow face.

[Vetrean]

@pirates:

Actually, according to what I've heard, some people did attempt to help him; check him into counseling, tutor him, blahblahblah. It's not as though he was totally alone or anything; maybe he was feeling lonely, but at any rate, it wasn't for lack of opportunity.

I dunno. It's an easy thing to say 'aw, poor victims' and 'aw, poor misunderstood perpetrator,' but I don't think anybody actually knows or could accurately guess with confidence what was going through his head when he planned this out. Until we know that, you can't really be so quick to condemn him...although, seeing as that's impossible, there's no point in not. Still, I'd personally reserve judging him. Who knows? Maybe in his circumstances, one of us would've done something similar.

I'm not saying that he's a figure to sympathize with; I'm saying that until you've been in that situation, judging him is really useless. Until you've seen what he's seen and been through what he's been through, you can't really understand why he did it.

Does that mean he could be good person? ...I don't know. Maybe if something different had happened to him, maybe had he done something else one day of his life and it changed him, he would've been a good person. There's tons of what-ifs.

The fact is that he killed 32 people and we don't know why. And I think that until you know that motive, you can't be so quick to judge.

[cattygurl]

The question is, is there EVER any justification whatsoever of any kind to go out and randomly shoot 32 people? I can think of shooting guards if you're a prisoner, shooting bullies that have tormented you- but he went out on a random rampage, and that's where my sympathies end.

[minbo]

It saddens me whenever I read about an Asian brother taking his own life. When something like this happens, noticed how the press skilfully takes the burden off society for its failure to correct the negative conditions which affects Asian Americans living in this country.

The press is not skillfully taking the burden off of society. A lot of people have tough crappy lives. A lot of people endure racism and abuse, I'm sure some worse then the shooter. In the end only one nutjob went out and killed 32 people and injured many more. That is not a societal ill. Its a singular anomaly. You are doing the same as "the press", grouping him with the slant eyed (ex)foreigners who might go postal any second.

The truth is, Asian Americans have no say so in the way this country is run. We have no say-so whatsoever, other than to live here, and to pay the highest price for the lowest form of treatment. The Asian man is a victim of this, a victim of economic exploitation, political exploitation and every other kind. He's so frustrated, so pent up, he has so much explosive energy within him, that he would like to get at the one who's castrating him. But the one who's castrating him cannot be reached. So that when the Asian man explodes, the one that he wants to get at isn't there. So he destroys whoevers nearest to him. And instead of the sociologists analyzing it as it actually is, trying to understand it as it actually is, again they cover up the real issue, and they use the press to make it appear that this gunman was mentally disturbed. No, it's not as simple as that. But they try and project the image to the public that he was. And they ignore the fact that he is a victim of this corrupt, vicious, hypocritical system that has castrated the Asian man; and the only way the Asian man can get back at it is to strike it in the only way he knows how.

The Asian man is not a victim of this situation. He was the agressor. He was the SOLE source of the problem. If it was an impulse mass killing, sure some singular event or person may have pushed him over, but that is not that case. This guy was planning it for months, buying guns and ammo. Getting chains and locks to barricade the exit to that building. Possibly phoning in bomb threats to gauge the emergency response of the campus. Because he was fucking crazy.

I don't condone violence. But at the same time, I understand fully, why this guy went berzerk. I believe that if there was some kind of program in place, to help benefit all Asians, particularly young Asians, this latest tragedy could have been averted. Cho Seung-Hui - he had no one to turn to; no particular direction to help offload his negative energy and channel it into something positive.

If you understand fully why he went berserk, then you have to be as bat assed crazy as he was. There is a word for the mental state of pre-meditated mass murderers. Criminally insane. Usually incurable also. He did have people to turn to, he just did not turn to them. He did not most probably as an outgrowth of whatever mental/emotional disturbance is that ate him up inside.

It’s important for us to see that the only way that our problem is going to be solved, will be to establish some kind of program which will provide a solution that will benefit all Asians living here in the West. Because it’s not going to be changed by putting out polls, implying that Asians are satisfied with the rate of progress in this country. This is deluding yourself. And my contention is that White people do themselves a disservice by putting out these kinds of things to make it appear that Asians are satisfied, when in reality the most explosive situation, racially, that has ever existed in this country, exists right now. And all your so called responsible leaders, when they speak about the situation, they say everything is in check. Yet every day you find Asian children becoming more explosive than ever.

Now how the hell does him going berserk equate to "our problem" that needs to be solved? Oh yea, racism against Asian Americans is the root of all evil, and can cause any oppressed Asian American to potentially go off their rocker and kill, kill, kill! Then also, you know what, it isn't their fault either. It's the fault of society. They are poor victims that need to be consoled.

Total crap.

I had two people joke to me asking why my cousin killed all those people. Did that casual ignorant joke make me want to pull out a chainsaw and dismember them? No. Because I'm not a homicidal maniac.

If this latest incident provokes a hostile backlash from the American public, I hope the Asian community will stand a firm ground. Regardless of what terrible crimes Cho Seung Hui may have committed, he’s still a blood brother, and we have to ensure that no amount of outside pressure will divide our people. I'm only too aware of how easy it is for the Asian community to distance themselves from violent individuals. Example - Chai Vang.

Finally something I can agree with. He is no blood brother of mine, but if it causes general increase of racism against Asians, Koreans or anyone else, yes, we should stand together against it.

Hey look, I'm not trying to promote any political cause here. I'm just offering my point of view on this matter. And here's another thing...maybe I don't know anything about the people involved, but at the same time, why is it that the major news networks continue to interview Cho Seung Hui's room mates, who claim to know next to nothing about the boy... instead of focusing all the coverage on a couple of clueless freshmans, CNN should go speak to his friends and relatives...people who actually knew him, and can act as a genuine voice on this matter.

How much you want a bet that his family IS being dogged by reporters and wants nothing more than a little bit of privacy to come to terms with what he did? Perhaps their attourneys also told them to keep their yaps shut because in a litigious society, if they say anything to the press it will be twisted and come back to haunt them in a trial? If he had real friends that could give up actual information about his mental and emotional state, then wouldn't he have had someone to turn to?

Look, if someone is being violent and you feel you need to defend yourself or others by using violence in return, I'm OK with that. If you think that you have to defend yourself by ambushing them and shanking their ass, giving them a beat down, burning and maiming them, then I'm going to have to part ways with you. If you think that premeditated killing of 32 "innocent" people is a natural outgrowth of societal ills of racism against Asians and that the killer is a victim of society, then I'm going to have to oppose you.

If you were not trying to push a political cause, then I apologize, but it looks to me that you were trying to use this event to push people to establish some kind of program which will provide a solution that will benefit all Asians living here in the West.

And I'm an idiot, I ment Jack Thompson. I don't know who the heck Jack Thomas is and I apologize for sullying his good name.

[pirates_of_prowse]

@pirates:



I dunno. It's an easy thing to say 'aw, poor victims' and 'aw, poor misunderstood perpetrator,' but I don't think anybody actually knows or could accurately guess with confidence what was going through his head when he planned this out. Until we know that, you can't really be so quick to condemn him...although, seeing as that's impossible, there's no point in not. Still, I'd personally reserve judging him. Who knows? Maybe in his circumstances, one of us would've done something similar.

I'm not saying that he's a figure to sympathize with; I'm saying that until you've been in that situation, judging him is really useless. Until you've seen what he's seen and been through what he's been through, you can't really understand why he did it.

Does that mean he could be good person? ...I don't know. Maybe if something different had happened to him, maybe had he done something else one day of his life and it changed him, he would've been a good person. There's tons of what-ifs.

The fact is that he killed 32 people and we don't know why. And I think that until you know that motive, you can't be so quick to judge.

I'm not judging or condemning this guy. I'm actually on his side. I don't support the fact he killed 33 people, but I support the fact they he was a misguided individual full of anger and hate who should have been institutionalised.

I don't want to jockey myself into a position where I'm going to be marginalised in this forum, but I know it's going to happen anyway....I've been in a similar predicament as this gunman. A situation where I felt alienated, and completely cut off from society....and this was between the ages of 14 to 22. Did I resort to mass murder? No. But I thought about it incessantly. I had enough weapons stockpiled in my room to start a low level war. The only reason I managed to avoid going down the same path which Seung-Hui chose, was a matter of conscience, my belief in an afterlife, and the fact that I don't want to leave behind a destructive legacy which would ultimately shame my family (and Asian people).

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for writing this, but I thought I should provide some clarity as to what goes on in the mind of someone who has the potential to kill a whole bunch of people indiscriminately. Well, actually, thats not true, because I had a specific list of names on the individuals, who I felt needed to be exterminated from society. And these were guys who deserved to die for the incredible amount of shit they gave me and the black kids in school. And I'm quite certain if I had been successful in executing these little shitheads, the media would have picked up on the fact, that they were "innocent" victims.

I can't speak for Cho Seung Hui, I can only speak for myself. But I know enough to say that whatever sparked off this rampage, pretty much boils down to the basic fact that this guy was extremely pissed off plus a whole bunch of other factors which you could probably figure out for yourself.

And by the way...I'm not a crazed maniac. I managed to outgrow this homicidal phase, by getting rid of my guns. Otherwise, I'll probably still be thinking about taking these little p.o.s out with a .357.

[AcousticDoc]

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flack for writing this, but I thought I should provide some clarity as to what goes on in the mind of someone who has the potential to kill a whole bunch of people indiscriminately.



I don't think you will. The fact that you can recognize your past behavior and feelings shows support that you're sane.

[lycheng]

I've been in a similar predicament as this gunman. A situation where I felt alienated, and completely cut off from society....and this was between the ages of 14 to 22. Did I resort to mass murder? No. But I thought about it incessantly. I had enough weapons stockpiled in my room to start a low level war. The only reason I managed to avoid going down the same path which Seung-Hui chose, was a matter of conscience, my belief in an afterlife, and the fact that I don't want to leave behind a destructive legacy which would ultimately shame my family (and Asian people).

Thanks for sharing that, PoP. I'm curious as to whether you shared your thoughts of destruction with anyone at the time? Did you ever seek counseling? The reason I ask is Cho was temporarily sent to an institution, but was released because they didn't think he would harm others.

You deserve a lot of credit for being self-aware enough to overcome those dangerous feelings.

lycheng

[theme]

pirates get some help.

And if you ever do decide to ramdomly shoot people, please leave a note saying that you're doing it for a noble cause like seal hunting or something.

but seriously. get some help.

[lycheng]

NBC News is reporting they received a package from Cho.

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

lycheng

[jaehwan]

I had a specific list of names on the individuals, who I felt needed to be exterminated from society. And these were guys who deserved to die for the incredible amount of shit they gave me and the black kids in school. And I'm quite certain if I had been successful in executing these little shitheads, the media would have picked up on the fact, that they were "innocent" victims.


While I agree that we're justified in looking at this in a racial context, I think you should get help too. You say that you're over it, but from your writing, it seems to be otherwise. I say this in a totally supportive way.

Please get some help if you haven't already.

[SamuraiJack]

pirates get some help.

And if you ever do decide to ramdomly shoot people, please leave a note saying that you're doing it for a noble cause like seal hunting or something.

but seriously. get some help.

that sounds more like an insult than an expression of concern.

[AcousticDoc]

Man, anyone see the videos he recorded for NBC? "I did this for my brothers and sisters..."

[kwak76]

Today at work I was speaking to this Korean guy. He has a daughter that goes to Stony Brook University. From what he told me his daughter and all of her Korean friends are staying indoors and locking themselves within the dorms.

The are doing it because they are afriad of a backlash by white america which I think is fucked up thinking on the Korean student part.

Cho the killer ..killed people not because he was korean or being asian played any part of it. He did it because he was fucked in the head.

Anyway, the Korean guy was upset about the shooting not because of the 32 deaths but more so that it was a Korean kid that did it.

We talked about it and he said that Korean people in America have a poor image here in American. Most Americans are ignorant and when they think of Koreans the image of North KOrea dictator and now this guy will come to mind. He does have a point.

Anyway, I told him that as Korean people we don't owe anyone anything.

This kid did it on his own. It has nothing to do with race. He was fucked in the head.

I think the media is toning down the Korean part now. Now they are just picturing Cho as the "lone Killer".

[santoki]

why do you think it's fucked up thinking by the Korean students? I already heard via other channels that Asian kids were being bullied by other students because of this event. I do think there will be a backlash against Asians, of course Koreans mostly but we Asians all look the same.... so...

Here in Korea the shooting was topic number one. Even when the North Koreans tested a bomb or something like that, nobody talked about it as much as yesterday about the shooting. Everybody feels ashamed of the fact that he was a Korean, everybody feels sympathy for those killed and their families. Even though it's the act of one lonely person, the fact that he was Korean just makes Koreans feel guilty, too. I guess it's a different way of thinking. If an American goes amok somewhere else in the world, no American would think that he should feel guilty for that act because it's an individual's deed. But here in Korea people think differently. If someone wins a gold medal, they are proud of him, if someone kills people, they feel guilty and sorry.

Of course this is now very generalized and I'm sure there are Koreans who do not think that way, too. But from the talks I had everybody expressed the same emotions.

[kikiandlala]

I read online that from this guys writing he appeared to need help or counseling or something. Its rough not having those resources available. Even a sounding board of a friend? Someone to listen to what he had to say.

Im not trying to jump on anybodys blame-train, but his plays got read in class, and apparently his state of mind wasnt a big secret. So when you meet someone like that...who steps up?

To those on the site of Asian heritage, please be careful over the next few weeks. I'm not suggesting hiding from anyone or thing, but just a general caution. Now that the media is putting this guys face all over the news along with; 'largest mass shooting in US history', you never know what self-styled revenge-vigilante is going to come out of the woodwork.

Please just be safe.




Thanks bro, your heart's as big as the rest of ya.

As for people stepping out to help Cho. From what I've read, there were plenty who did such as his room-mates, his professors and fellow members of his class. Unfortunately, he's so tight up in his mental script that he wouldn't allow himself to be helped. Last year he was even submitted to psychological assessment due to a stalking incident involving 2 girls.

Kuro, you should check out the book Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. Man, Cho falls under so many warning signs that it was practically an inevitability he'd pull something violent. Also check out anything from John Douglas and other members of the early FBI profiling unit, their documentation of mass murders practically fits Cho to a T. Hmm, for that matter I'd keep an eye out on Kenneth Eng. If that guy ever gets his hands on a gun...chilling thought.

More stuff written on Black Tokyo, including some comments from Zu.

[Vetrean]

I'm not judging or condemning this guy. I'm actually on his side. I don't support the fact he killed 33 people, but I support the fact they he was a misguided individual full of anger and hate who should have been institutionalised.

Er, probably should've clarified, but I wasn't referring to you when I was talking about condemning him. It was more aimed towards like atlasien, though I guess I did write it out badly.

[angi]

The more news that comes out makes it clear this guy was a random psycho. People even say he fit the profile of a shooter and attempts were made to "help" him. Also, it seems he stalked a couple of females and did weird shit like sit under their desks and take photos of their legs. I don't think has anything to do with him being the nerdy Asian guy exacting revenge on all the white people who picked on him. His diatribes are focused more on rich kids with more money than sense.

I don't you all, but uhm, this is a prime example of this bullshit university culture of anything goes. Now, this fucker was stalking women, writing shitty, violent stories and, I am sure will soon find out, engaging in all kinds of bullshit behavior. Why the hell wasn't he expelled? And how did he get from one side of the campus to the other without anyone stopping him? This whole situation is one big ass FUBAR.

My first impression upon hearing the guy was a "Korean resident alien" was that whoever bought those weapons for him, assuming they weren't hot, is in some seriously deep shit when FBI gets ahold of them. I have yet to hear anyone in my earshot say anything about his race...everything has been centered around what a nutjob he obviously was. Really, the only person who has mentioned it is a Korean friend of mine who is embarassed, which is crazy, but whatever. Of course, I'm don't live in whiteymcwhiteyville either. So hopefully people will see this as a random occurance and not make any associations between Asians and wackjobs with guns.

[Dialectic]

Yeah, ultimately, guys, this is not a racism thing. It's a he's-a-fucking-psycho thing. Race, while always "relevant" was pretty incidental here.

Also, his teacher and school counselors wanted him to get counseling, but they couldn't force him, and obviously no one can see this sort of thing coming.

[nskripchun]

Also, his teacher and school counselors wanted him to get counseling, but they couldn't force him, and obviously no one can see this sort of thing coming.

The latest news I think will keep fueling speculation about him, but it seems like he had some sort of deep resentment that he kept inside of him, until the anger and rage turned him completely psycho.

Some quotes from the video of himself that he sent to NBC News is here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

"You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," 23-year-old Cho Seung-Hui says in a harsh monotone. "But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off."

NBC said the package contained a rambling and often-incoherent, 1,800-word video manifesto, plus 43 photos, 11 of them showing him aiming handguns at the camera.

He repeatedly suggests he was picked on or otherwise hurt.

"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," he says, apparently reading from his manifesto. "You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people."

The package arrived at NBC's headquarters in New York two days after Cho killed 32 people and committed suicide in the deadliest one-man shooting rampage in modern U.S. history. It bore a Postal Service time stamp showing that it had been mailed at a Virginia post office at 9:01 a.m. Monday, about an hour and 45 minutes after Cho first opened fire.

That would help explain one of the biggest mysteries about the massacre: where the gunman was and what he did during that two-hour window between the first burst of gunfire, at a high-rise dorm, and the second fusillade, at a classroom building.

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," says Cho, a South Korean immigrant whose parents work at a dry cleaners in surburban Washington. "Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

Some of the pictures show him smiling; others show him frowning and snarling. Some depict him brandishing two weapons at a time, one in each hand. He wears a khaki-colored military-style vest, fingerless gloves, a black T-shirt, a backpack and a backwards, black baseball cap. Another photo shows him swinging a hammer two-fisted. Another shows an angry-looking Cho holding a gun to his temple.

He refers to "martyrs like Eric and Dylan" — a reference to the teenage killers in the Columbine High massacre.

The package was sent by overnight delivery but did not arrive at NBC until Wednesday morning. It had apparently been delayed because it had the wrong ZIP code, NBC said.

An alert postal employee brought the package to NBC's attention after noticing the Blacksburg return address and a name similar to the words reportedly found scrawled in red ink on Cho's arm after the bloodbath, "Ismail Ax," NBC said.

NBC News President Steve Capus said that the network received the package around noon and notified the
FBI. He said the FBI asked NBC to hold off reporting on it so that the bureau could look at it first, and NBC complied, finally breaking the story just before a police announcement of the package at 4:30 p.m.

Capus said it was clear Cho videotaped himself, because he could be seen leaning in to shut off the camera.

State Police Spokeswoman Corinne Geller cautioned that, while the package was mailed between the two shootings, police have not inspected the footage and have yet to establish exactly when the images were made.

Photocaps from the video:

http://img135.imagevenue.com/loc487/th_51635_Cho1_122_487lo.jpg (http://img135.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=51635_Cho1_122_487lo.jpg)http://img167.imagevenue.com/loc409/th_51640_Cho2_122_409lo.jpg (http://img167.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=51640_Cho2_122_409lo.jpg)http://img9.imagevenue.com/loc1113/th_51641_Cho3_122_1113lo.jpg (http://img9.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=51641_Cho3_122_1113lo.jpg)http://img126.imagevenue.com/loc370/th_51646_Cho4_122_370lo.jpg (http://img126.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=51646_Cho4_122_370lo.jpg)

[Dialectic]

As Nskripchun notes above, NBC has photos, video, and a ton of text, which he sent in the two hours he wasn't shooting. He even refers to the Columbine guys, Jesus, and he thinks he's standing up to bullies and popular party-type kids. It's weird; it's like I'm looking at photos of a dude a bit (well, a lot, actually) crazier than the talkers we had here and at mm.com who actually went through with his crazy shit. And now look, the whole county and bits of the world are looking at him. This dude got everything he wanted.

[santoki]

As Nskripchun notes above, NBC has photos, video, and a ton of text, which he sent in the two hours he wasn't shooting. He even refers to the Columbine guys, Jesus, and he thinks he's standing up to bullies and popular party-type kids. It's weird; it's like I'm looking at photos of a dude a bit (well, a lot, actually) crazier than the talkers we had here and at mm.com who actually went through with his crazy shit. And now look, the whole county and bits of the world are looking at him. This dude got everything he wanted.

I wonder if there will be copycats. Just like the Werther syndrome causes many to commit suicide after reading about a suicide, maybe it triggers others to go beyond a certain line as well...

[Ike]

Whatever happened to the good old days when crazy was just a white thing?

[nskripchun]

^haha.

On a serious note, and reflecting on the photographs, a couple of thoughts came to me.

-The black baseball cap turned backwards might be a reference to the Columbine shooters. (see this photo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Eric_harris_dylan_klebold.jpg)) He also mentioned the Columbine shooters in his ranting.

-The hammer he holds in hands might be reference to Oldboy, a Korean movie that revolves around the theme of revenge and its consequences.

[Dialectic]

Interesting observations. Overall I wouldn't look for too much meaning behind this guy's stuff; he was off his rocker, talking about Bush and the Jon Benet guy and the "number of the anti-terrorist."

[wuwei]

Oldboy[/i], a Korean movie that revolves around the theme of revenge and its consequences.

Wow, I totally missed this, but you are absolutely right.

And do you remember the underlying theme of Old Boy? Incest.

[Dialectic]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/18/librescu-bush.html?ref=rss

An article on a professor and Holocaust survivor who got killed blocking the door to his class, as well as a list of some other people who died (and Bush is mentioned too).

A Holocaust survivor who died while saving his students in Monday's shootings at a Virginia university is a true example of courage, U.S. President George W. Bush says.

Bush paid tribute to Liviu Librescu on Wednesday morning, hours before the engineering professor's afternoon funeral in Brooklyn, N.Y.

Students said Librescu, 76, leaned against the door of his Virginia Tech classroom, blocking the path of the gunman who had opened fire on campus and was carrying out a rampage that would result in the deaths of 32 people as well as himself.

Librescu's actions Monday morning gave his students enough time to climb out the window of his second-storey classroom. The gunman eventually got through the door and killed Librescu, but not before his students escaped.

"This Holocaust survivor gave his own life so others could live," Bush said, speaking at a Holocaust remembrance event at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington.

"We take strength from his example."

The gunman, identified by police as 23-year-old student Cho Seung-Hui, killed himself on campus in Blacksburg, Va., before police could apprehend him. At least 15 people were wounded in the attack; 14 remained in area hospitals Wednesday.

Private funeral

A rabbi led Librescu's private funeral Wednesday and, after the brief service, the professor's casket was carried out of the funeral home as dozens of members of the local Orthodox Jewish community gathered around to pay their respects.

Librescu's body was to be flown Wednesday night to Israel for burial.

Earlier in the day, one of Librescu's two sons described his father as a hero.

"Apparently he did something really good for many people and I'm proud of what he did," Joe Librescu told CBC News.

"He was a hero for me for what he has done throughout his life."

Librescu, who grew up in Romania, was only a boy when his native country joined forces with Nazi Germany in the Second World War. His family said Librescu was interned at a labour camp and then sent to a ghetto with his family and thousands of other Jews.

Librescu survived the war and found work at a government aerospace company. His family said his career was stonewalled when he refused to pledge allegiance to Romania's Communist regime in the 1970s.
Moved to Israel

He was then fired because he requested permission to move to Israel, his family recalled.

He and his family made the move to Israel in 1978, and remained in the country until Librescu was asked in 1985 to teach at Virginia Tech, formally known as Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University.

Librescu, who specialized in composite structures and aeroelasticity, published many research papers and books, and received numerous awards for his work.

His wife, speaking to reporters Wednesday, said her husband always thought of others before he thought of himself. This was most evident on the day he died, she said.

"He was fighting for everyone," Marlena Librescu said. "He was always helping how he could, but he was not able to help himself."
Names of other victims emerging

Also on Wednesday, the names of other Virginia Tech victims were released to the media.

On Monday, it was learned that one of those shot dead was Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, a French instructor from Canada. The former Montreal resident was teaching at Virginia Tech at the time of the shootings Monday, police said.

The names of other victims include:

* Ross Abdallah Alameddine, 20, of Saugus, Mass.
* Christopher James Bishop, 35.
* Brian Bluhm, 25, civil engineering graduate student.
* Ryan Clark, 22, of Martinez, Ga., biology and English major.
* Austin Cloyd, international studies major from Blacksburg.
* Daniel Perez Cueva, 21.
* Kevin Granata, engineering science and mechanics professor.
* Matthew G. Gwaltney, 24, of Chester, Va., graduate student in engineering.
* Caitlin Hammaren, 19, of Westtown, N.Y., a second-year French and international studies major.
* Jeremy Herbstritt, 27, of Bellefonte, Pa.
* Rachael Hill, 18, of Glen Allen, Va.
* Emily Jane Hilscher, 19, of Woodville, Va., veterinary science student.
* Jarrett L. Lane, 22, of Narrows, Va.
* Matthew J. La Porte, 20, a first-year student from Dumont, N.J.
* G.V. Loganathan, 51, civil and environmental engineering professor.
* Partahi Lombantoruan, 34, of Indonesia, civil engineering doctoral student.
* Lauren McCain, 20, of Hampton, Va., international studies major.
* Daniel O'Neil, 22, of Rhode Island.
* Juan Ramon Ortiz, 26, a graduate student in engineering from Bayamon, Puerto Rico.
* Minal Panchal, 26, first-year student of building science from Mumbai, India.
* Erin Peterson, 18, of Chantilly, Va., international studies major.
* Michael Pohle, 23, of Flemington, N.J.
* Julia Pryde, graduate student from Middletown, N.J.
* Mary Karen Read, 19, of Annandale, Va.
* Reema J. Samaha, 18, a first-year student from Centreville, Va.
* Waleed Mohammed Shaalan, of Zagazig, Egypt, doctoral student in civil engineering.
* Leslie Sherman, second-year history and international studies student from Springfield, Va.
* Maxine Turner, 22, senior majoring in chemical engineering from Vienna, Va.

Hilscher and Clark are believed to have been the first two killed, shot at one of the school dormitories two hours before the others were gunned down at the opposite end of the sprawling campus.

[santoki]

According to Joongang Ilbo (Korean Newspaper) one of the victims was a hapa. Mary Karen Read's mother is according to the newspaper Korean, her father in the US army.

Even today the news from Virginia dominate the newspapers...

[kwak76]

I don't think there is any relationship between "OldBoy" and killer Cho.

I didn't know CHo had a sister. I read it in Yahoo news that his sister works as a contractual for the state department. I just hope she doesn't get fucked up because of her brother action.

If anything I know this sounds messed up and I think it was very wrong for Cho to kill people but at the same time watching that video of Cho I came to the conclusion that he was just a messed up kid with a messed up head.


A part of me feels sorry for Cho because he was so fucked up in the head. I don't know if he had any real reason why he did it. It seemed like he was angry at the rich kids but kept going on about other shit that doesn't make sense.

[ellencho]

I think if he had been in another environment he would have found something else to fixate on. The rich kids were just convenient for where he was at the present time. He was screwed up in his head, and it looks like he wasn't self aware enough to know something was wrong and ask for help.

[Scowl]

No doubt about it, the guy had some serious mental health issues. I can relate a little bit to what he was saying - lord knows I've had my issues when I was in school.

For me, this brings to mind the feature article by Terry Woo: Responsibility (http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2006/04/17/responsibility-slug/)

I think if he had been in another environment he would have found something else to fixate on. The rich kids were just convenient for where he was at the present time. He was screwed up in his head, and it looks like he wasn't self aware enough to know something was wrong and ask for help.

I don't know about that. It sounds like he was fucked with, a lot. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think so. He was definitely fucked up in the head, but you can't say that his environment had absolutely no effect at all. Would he have flipped out that way at a different school, a different state, a different country? We'll never know.

[ellencho]

I didnt' realize he was victimized. I just got the feeling he was really disturbed and nobody ever followed up on his mental health.

[SamuraiJack]

While I agree that we're justified in looking at this in a racial context, I think you should get help too. You say that you're over it, but from your writing, it seems to be otherwise. I say this in a totally supportive way.

Please get some help if you haven't already.

Please, a lot of people have had these thoughts before, of killing and even torturing people who've wronged them considerably. I've gone through thought exercises of planning, executing, and concealing evidence of crime, but that doesn't make me closer to murder than someone like Cho.

There's something else that needs to be there. Pirate doesn't have it. The fact that he's talking about it and discussing it makes him far less likely to do anything crazy.

Personally, I think Cho had years of torment before university to make him the way he was in university. It must have been the "rich brats" that caused him a lot of grief. When he got to university, perhaps he was already messed up enough that it was difficult for him to meet friends in first year, and after that he became a loner.

Who knows, maybe there was an element of racism in his past - maybe not overt, but subtle. Perhaps if he was a dorky white guy, some Asian girl might have accepted his advances because of his whiteness and he would have been happy. Or at least he could've flown to Japan or Thailand to get laid like all the rest of them.

[SamuraiJack]

I didnt' realize he was victimized. I just got the feeling he was really disturbed and nobody ever followed up on his mental health.

No one is disturbed when they are born. There's usually, if not always, external factors that make us who we are.

[ellencho]

Not when they are born necessarily, but some people are predisposed to mental illness and I thought he just happened to be one of those people. Lots of mental illnesses don't show up until after puberty. You don't necessarily have to have trauma or victimization occur to become mentally ill.

[SamuraiJack]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

"There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down and laugh at him," Roberts said Wednesday. "He didn't speak English really well and they would really make fun of him."

Fuckers.

So there is an element of racism to this whole story.

[kwak76]

According to new article in the yahoo news it looks like th Cho was picked on allot when he was in High School.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting;_ylt=AqSzZW1tTTF6YSnRVeJc6f UDW7oF

I think even if your crazy in the head you don't just wake up one day and decide I will kill 32 people. I think Cho was messed up in head but I think out side factors must of push him to do it.

I could relate being picked on in school. It happened to me when I was in grade school. I was also very shy and my english(this is going back to grade school) was not very good. Kids would laugh at me or call me ching-chong but I still had a sense of what's right and wrong.

I think in Cho case maybe there was something missing in his brain where he couldn't tell and decided to get back at everyone.

I think as time goes by what we will discover is that cho was probably picked on allot . He probably didn't have the support network that is needed and well I also think something screwy is missing in his head.

Put that all together and also getting a gun pretty easy and you kind get this massacre.

Overall people wants to picture as this killer which he is but at that sametime I don't see him as a psychopath . If anything I really feel sorry for him to be in that state to do this.

[atlasien]

I support judicious retaliation against racist bullies with some forms of physical violence. But on the other hand, I got the "go back to China" treatment in school and I never, ever fantasized about torturing or killing people in response, much less moved on to actually doing anything like that, perhaps because I had adequate mental and physical defenses and coping mechanisms. A lot of children go through much worse suffering in their life and don't become mass murderers.

Cho had major mental illness issues and racism was only a very small piece of that. He may have been sexually abused as well, but again that is only a small puzzle piece of something that will never form a complete picture.

[kwak76]

SJ,

yes, there might be element of racism but I think we all experience racism but not all of us decides to get a gun and blow people off.

The thing that really bothers me is because Cho is Korean ..people are trying to link Cho up to Oldboy the Korean movie. As if Oldboy inspired Cho ot kill people.

I mean the only reason why they are linking Cho to Oldboy is because of the Korean part but nothing else.

People outside of this are judging this as a race thing when it should be least of the reason.

Even if Cho was not Korean but was weird or very shy he probably would of gotten picked on because of his personality.

I think the bottom line is that Cho was unstable and getting picked on and everything else pushed him to it.

[kwak76]

ellencho,

Most serial killers or mass murderers were victims at one point in thier lives.

[lycheng]

ellencho,

Most serial killers or mass murderers were victims at one point in thier lives.

Yes, but everyone... and I mean everyone... has been a victim of some kind of injustice at one point in their lives.

lycheng

[ellencho]

Yes, but everyone... and I mean everyone... has been a victim of some kind of injustice at one point in their lives.

lycheng
Thanks for clarifying lycheng. I suppose my original point was that this guy was predisposed to mental illness and didn't receive adequate help and support when he really needed it.

I just have a real problem with people blaming race solely for his going berserk and I felt like a couple people here were alluding to it.

[lycheng]

^^ No problem Ellen.

My point is that, if we're looking about root causes, I would rank "being a victim" at the bottom of the list, and mental illness at the top of the list.

Life is a bitch sometimes, and society doesn't play fair. I'm all for advocating fairness in society, but you have to do in in a reasonable and sane way.

lycheng

[atlasien]

My point is that, if we're looking about root causes, I would rank "being a victim" at the bottom of the list, and mental illness at the top of the list.


That's a great way to put it. I totally agree.

[jaehwan]

There's something else that needs to be there. Pirate doesn't have it. The fact that he's talking about it and discussing it makes him far less likely to do anything crazy.

You can't possibly know that just from his words on a message board. Klebold and Harris talked about it all the time. His use of words like "exterminate" tell me that it might be a good idea for him to talk to someone.

By the way, thanks for posting that yahoo article on the racial aspect.

I guess we'll be learning more as the day goes on.

[nskripchun]

According to Joongang Ilbo (Korean Newspaper) one of the victims was a hapa. Mary Karen Read's mother is according to the newspaper Korean, her father in the US army.

Even today the news from Virginia dominate the newspapers...

Yeah, it's this woman:

http://www.roanoke.com/vtvictims/wb/113500

[aelward]

Here is an exerpt from my local newspaper, which is very conservative:
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArti cle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173350800506&path=%21editorials&s=1045855934983
------------------------------

As more details emerged from the chaos yesterday, the nation learned the gunman was Cho Seung-Hui: a South Korean, a resident alien, and an English major. Some will, no doubt, exploit these facts to saddle up their anti-immigration hobbyhorse -- just as media bottom-feeders such as Bill O'Reilly seized on the Virginia Beach collision last month in which an illegal immigrant was charged with aggravated manslaughter in the deaths of two teenagers.

But single instances are instructive only about single instances, nothing more. No one knows what demons tormented Cho's sick and malignant soul. Charles Whitman, who shot to death 16 people from the University of Texas clock tower, was not an immigrant, legal or otherwise. Neither was Timothy McVeigh -- or Charles Manson or Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris or Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer or . . . .All of those mass killers were white males -- and yet it would be just as foolish to extrapolate from that fact a need for a crackdown on white males as it is to use the tragedy at Tech as an excuse for immigrant-bashing.
_----------------------------------

[SamuraiJack]

To say that we've all been victims at one point in our lives doesn't mean much at all. We're talking about different degrees here, and different support networks, different upbringings, etc...

If you can say you've had the same upbringing, same support network, and same shit thrown at you for the same duration, then you can possibly say that.

My belief is, that unless there's some sort of genetic predisposition to being crazy, we're all born with a blank slate, and unfortunately for Cho, he didn't have the right upbringing, support and wasn't able to deal with the years (at least from middle school to end of high school - 6 years at least) of torment.

If you wouldn't have done the same thing, well good for you - something in your past affected you so you wouldn't make the same choice Cho did. Cho was lacking that special something or someone that would have prevented him from doing what he did.

[Vetrean]

Something I'd like clarified: did Cho mention anything about race in his ranting?

Because if he didn't, I'd assume that the 'race' factor is secondary. Maybe it made him angrier at society, I dunno, but as far as I know, that doesn't seem to be his focus, and doesn't seem to be a main or even particularly significant reason for what he did.

[lycheng]

^^ I don't think Cho mentioned race at all.

Judging by two of his victims, Henry Lee (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/virginiatech.shootings/victims/profiles/henry.lee.html), an East Asian, and Mary Read (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/virginiatech.shootings/victims/profiles/mary.read.html), a Hapa, I don't think he took race into account during his rampage.

lycheng

[pirates_of_prowse]

If you were not trying to push a political cause, then I apologize, but it looks to me that you were trying to use this event to push people to establish some kind of program which will provide a solution that will benefit all Asians living here in the West.

.

Mimbo, I think the bottom line is that we misunderstood each other. I feel it would be a drag for me to come back here and allow myself to be in a whole lot of public argument, knowing that it would actually be more beneficial to our people if a constructive program was put in front of them immediately. Is it really so wrong to establish some kind of organisation which would be of mutual benefit to everyone in here? I don't consider myself British. If you were American, there'd be no problem either. But as long as you have been over here, you're not an American yet. Establishing a program which practices Asian empowerment would be the first step towards getting a little leeway for our people, in this racist society. You even said it yourself, a "program which will provide a solution that will benefit all Asians living here in the West." That's what we need to do.


Thanks for sharing that, PoP. I'm curious as to whether you shared your thoughts of destruction with anyone at the time? Did you ever seek counseling? The reason I ask is Cho was temporarily sent to an institution, but was released because they didn't think he would harm others.

You deserve a lot of credit for being self-aware enough to overcome those dangerous feelings.

lycheng


I managed to suppress these feelings by practising my own form of self therapy.When the anger became unmanageable, to the point where I was ready to go do some damage- that's when I decided upon professional help. I went to my local GP and told him everything...the GP called the Emergency unit and referred me to go see a psychologist. The psychologist, in turn, put me on an anger management course, and a life management program, both of which was supervised by the same counsellor. In fact, I'm still attending the life management program, and I believe it has helped, somewhat.

It's not that I didn't have anyone to talk to, prior to professional help, but I found that the people whom I shared this information with, would usually treat it as a joke, because they thought I was bluffing. I weren't bluffing.

Today, I consider myself a pretty well adjusted person. I try to live a life of good conduct. I have never raised my hand against any man, since I've been an adult that is, except for self defence, but there has always been an element of aggressiveness in the way that I handle these incidents. I'll have to defend my person, but I promise you that unless there is a direct threat to my existence, I hope I will have no more trouble in this life. I don't want people to think that I'm crazy or reckless. Unless you live in the real rip-and tear world of hardline racism, you do not know how hard it is to live in peace even for a short period with people who defy violence and vilify peace and harmony. I'd rather live in peace than have to worry about why that white dude over there is looking at me hostile.

To determine how a man behaves once he enters an environment fraught with racism, it is of first importance to know that environment. A man is brutalized by his environment - not the reverse.

[Anarchrist]

If the guy was a Chinese foreign student, then this is the second college shooting perpetuated by a Chinese foreign student. The first (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Lu) took place in the Physics department at the University of Iowa in 1991.

Actually, there's a movie just released based on the Iowa incident called Dark Matter (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/27/science/27dark.html?ex=1332648000&en=320d3ee4b25110f6&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss). Angry Asian Man (http://www.angryasianman.com/2007/04/dark-side-of-academia.html) even wrote about it a couple of weeks ago.

lycheng

Interesting reflection on the Chinese student at the University of Iowa. Here at Columbia University there have already been a few reports of Asian students being harassed on the basis of the Vtech shootings. Now, let's hope the media doesn't somehow slip in the same connection between Vtech and Iowa U. It's something I'm sure they've avoided on purpose, but the moment these two stories get put together in the mass media, that's when the racial paradigm in this country is going to record the consistency.

[lycheng]

There's an excellent Salon.com article (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/04/19/cho_shooting/) on the role of race in the shootings written by Jeff Yang.

The following best sums up my view:

"Most of the perpetrators of mass school killings have been white," said Paul Niwa, a journalism professor at Emerson College. "After those shootings, do you think white people felt guilty that the shooter was white? Do you think white people felt that since the shooter was white, that the shooter would give society a bad impression of whites? A shooter can be white and nobody thinks that race played a part in the crime. But when someone nonwhite commits a crime, this society makes the person's race partially at fault."

Reading these comments, I found myself caught in a dilemma. I want to think that race is not a factor in the toxic mix of rage and psychological disturbance that has occasionally discharged as this kind of violence. And, certainly, in most cases it isn't: Teenage angst is colorblind, and the triggers for crimes like these have included parental abuse, schoolyard persecution, romantic obsession -- phenomena that exist beyond culture or ethnicity.

But professor Niwa is right: When race enters the equation -- when the perpetrator of a crime of this type is black, like "Beltway Snipers" John Allen Muhammad and his ward Lee Boyd Malvo, or Asian, like Cho -- it rises to the surface and stays there, prompting inevitable discussions about whether "black rage" or "immigrant alienation" were somehow to blame; whether in some fundamental fashion, color of skin, shape of eye, or nation of origin lie at the seething, secret heart of such tragedies.

[wuwei]

Interesting reflection on the Chinese student at the University of Iowa. Here at Columbia University there have already been a few reports of Asian students being harassed on the basis of the Vtech shootings. Now, let's hope the media doesn't somehow slip in the same connection between Vtech and Iowa U. It's something I'm sure they've avoided on purpose, but the moment these two stories get put together in the mass media, that's when the racial paradigm in this country is going to record the consistency.

No. these two events will not be linked together by anyone but the Asian American community and perhaps the racist whites.

The 1991 shooting is not noteworthy in anyway other than the shooter being an ethnic Chinese. it was hardly a random shooting either, he was going after his advisor and one of his peers because of a dispute involving his dissertation, the other people that died were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. He wasn't trying to create a bodycount like Columbine, or Cho was.

Seriously, I think some of guys are overreacting. I doubt there will be any backlash, because this was the action of one person and one person alone, he didnt even have an accomplice. Unlike 9/11, which was the action of at least a portion of a population. Also, considering the backdrop of the Iraq war, and stuff going on with Iran still, this is truely not that significant, as I've already seen some pointing out "32 death in VT vs. 132 deaths in Baghdad average per day".

[kwak76]

the salon article is correct.

I can't help but the media keeps pointing at his racial background as if that might of played into it.

And I agree with SJ as asian people we owe no one an apology or feel guilty about this.

This guy went nuts and starting killing people. End of story.

What get's me mad is if whitey is starting to point at Korean or if a Asian student will get harass for the killings. That's fucked up and social injustice.

[santoki]

Her mother got divorced and is now living in New Jersey.

If he remarried then it's her stepmother.

[cattygurl]

I would think they shared custody. My friends that have divorced parents often have lived with both sets of parents at some point.

[santoki]

I watched one show where they interviewed a former roommate/housemate (?) and the journalist would insist on a connection to some violent games such as "counterstrike" even though the interviewee told him that he had never seen Cho Seung-hui play such a game.

it's ridiculous to make such a connection.

Most of the gamers who play counterstrike won't shoot a person IRL.
Most of the persons owning a gun won't shoot a person IRL. I would even go that far that the probability that someone who owns a gun will shoot someone else is higher than for those who play counterstrike.

There are only a few who will cross that line. But every time someone goes amok there was a discussion about onlinegames. The last time someone went amok in Germany (2002, 17 dead) the discussion about counterstrike was huge.

Is it just the search for a motive? Trying to find an explanation as to why he went amok?

We can all try to dehumanize and deracialize Cho Seung-hui as much as we want in order to make the events more acceptable. But the original problem won't go away by doing that. What are we, as a society, going to do? There will be future Cho Seung-huis no doubt about it.

I do think that the access to firearms should be limited. But I guess the current US Administration and the NRA won't allow that to happen. And as long as the status quo is the same we will probably have to deal with such massacres from time to time...

[Scowl]

I don't know if it's been mentioned in western media, but the South China Daily News reported that Cho's parents both attempted suicide. The father succeeded, and I believe the mother remains in critical condition.

I see that a lot of people think that Koreans shouldn't feel any guilt about this, and I don't disagree with that. However, I believe this may be a cultural thing - I'm not Korean and I don't pretend to know much about the culture, but they obviously do not see everything in exactly the same way as Americans do. Those of us commenting on this forum and others like it are for the most part heavily westernized, if not western by upbringing.

I say this because older members of my family who did not grow up here share the same mindset - that Cho brought great, irredeemable shame to his family, and by extension his "greater family (my words, not theirs)" of Korean society. I could be totally wrong about this, but at least consider the possibilty. If true, then it does clash with the AA agenda of achieving American individuality, so I can understand why people would be resistant to the idea.

[RebelAzn]

I think news are now coming out stating Cho was picked on when he was a kid in middle and high school. Cho probably went through what a ton of Asians have to go through growing up in a predominantly white neighborhood. Many of us probably got picked up by bunch of racist white people when we were young. I mean, it is easy for white kids to pick on you when they have 500 kids to 1 Asian kid.

Many of us outgrew that and went on to be better people. Most of us do know the difference between right and wrong. Cho probably had something snapped in his head and he went nuts. Sad he has to take this out on all the wrong people. He killed more than 2 Asians. He killed Mary Read, Henry Lee, an Indonesian man and an South Indian. Therefore, I don't believe race has a huge thing to do with it. If he was going to commit murder, he should at least went after the racist kids that picked on him when he was young.

I doubt he became the way he was in a couple of years. He probably gone through some tough times long before that. I don't understand why CNN keep interviewing his former roommates when they barely know him.

Finally, today, CNN on Paula Zahn show brought couple of Asian Americans on to get their take. They asked why Asian community is fearing a backlash. It is obviously most Americans have no clue what minorities have to go through in this country. People don't realize when someone from a minority group does something, all the people in the community could face backlash. I still remember the conversation I had with my Lebanese friend about him getting beat up when U.S. invaded Iraq during the Kuwait war. There are some dumb ass racist people in this country.

Already, some nut in Yukon CA this morning threaten to blow up school and make Va Tech look mild. There will be copycats. Media gave Cho what he wanted and I am sure there will be more copycats. Meanwhile, over 200 people got killed in Iraq last couple of days and no one cares.

[DONKEY]

holy shit this is the first ive read of this (dont watch the news and been on a four day bender)
how come they said he was from China at first?
if any of you folks own weapons u should keep them nearby in case any "patriotic" citizens decide to pay a visit to the only Asian on the block.

kenneth eng is a mentally ill kid with too much time on his hands. why asianweek ever gave him a spot in their paper i can never guess. dunno what Eng's story is but i think he needs some real friends ASAP.

Cho's suicide was his way of giving a last "Fuck you" to the world
after seeing those vids its clear that his sickness took total control over him
but lets not lose perspective here,
32 innocents dead cuz he went totally insane
hundreds of thousands dead cuz rich ppl get the notion that "this war will be a good one for us"

[tkguy]

I don't know if it's been mentioned in western media, but the South China Daily News reported that Cho's parents both attempted suicide. The father succeeded, and I believe the mother remains in critical condition.

This was found to be untrue. This was just a rumor, supposingly the parents are in the hospital.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21582111-5001021,00.html

[Dialectic]

I don't know if it's been mentioned in western media, but the South China Daily News reported that Cho's parents both attempted suicide. The father succeeded, and I believe the mother remains in critical condition.

I see that a lot of people think that Koreans shouldn't feel any guilt about this, and I don't disagree with that. However, I believe this may be a cultural thing - I'm not Korean and I don't pretend to know much about the culture, but they obviously do not see everything in exactly the same way as Americans do. Those of us commenting on this forum and others like it are for the most part heavily westernized, if not western by upbringing.

I say this because older members of my family who did not grow up here share the same mindset - that Cho brought great, irredeemable shame to his family, and by extension his "greater family (my words, not theirs)" of Korean society. I could be totally wrong about this, but at least consider the possibilty. If true, then it does clash with the AA agenda of achieving American individuality, so I can understand why people would be resistant to the idea.

This is a very good point. Feeling a national or ethnic responsibility is also especially pronounced, not just for old school Asians in general, but for the Koreans specifically, especially any who have spent at least a bit of time in Korea and so aren't wholly westernized. From what I've seen online and what my housemate's told me (he immigrated here when he was 8), they're all identifying quite a bit. As he said, "Korean is Korean."

[nskripchun]

I watched one show where they interviewed a former roommate/housemate (?) and the journalist would insist on a connection to some violent games such as "counterstrike" even though the interviewee told him that he had never seen Cho Seung-hui play such a game.

it's ridiculous to make such a connection.

Most of the gamers who play counterstrike won't shoot a person IRL.
Most of the persons owning a gun won't shoot a person IRL. I would even go that far that the probability that someone who owns a gun will shoot someone else is higher than for those who play counterstrike.


That's crazy Jack Thompson (http://kotaku.com/gaming/hardball/clip-jack-thompson-gets-hardballed-253501.php) logic... the nutcase lawyer who wants to sue anybody and anything related to video games because in his mind, video games = brainwash all kids into killing people.

His claims gets regularly dissected in articles like this (http://kotaku.com/gaming/feature/feature-dissecting-jacks-lies-252914.php) for the BS it all is.

[Registration]

I didnt' realize he was victimized. I just got the feeling he was really disturbed and nobody ever followed up on his mental health.
In the video, Cho describes the feeling of "being spit on [the] face and having trashed stuff down [the] throat." He may not necessarily have been bullied often, but he was definitely a tortured soul. Watching the video, it was obvious that Cho's entire life was one pathetic and helpless script. Although he ended his life only a few days ago, he was already dead. People often ask what the meaning of life is. For Cho, everything has socialized him to believe that life is meaningless and nothing but a cruel joke. Ever since he was a child, he was slowly dying from the weight of societal pressures forcing him so far to the fringes of society that he no longer existed. I feel unconditional sympathy for all 32 victims and nothing will ever diminish that. Nevertheless, Cho in himself was also a victim. In his own words, he mentions that society had countless opportunities to stop (or save) him. Yet nothing stopped his "conscience from slow being torched" and his "life from being slowly extinguished."

[Registration]

I wonder if there will be copycats. Just like the Werther syndrome causes many to commit suicide after reading about a suicide, maybe it triggers others to go beyond a certain line as well...
Your line of thought is appreciated. But couldn't the argument work both ways? By understanding Cho's world and circumstances, we can see life through his shoes. Maybe he's a psychopath, maybe he isn't, the video will tell us. By deducing the motives for the attacks, couldn't we potentially save many lives by using the information to help others in Cho's situations? There are thousands of outsiders who live similar lives. Whether they're suicidal or homicidal, this video will give us the means to understand, identify and help these individuals.

[santoki]

I have two thoughts in regards to this.

Of course we can learn from what is available. We can try to change things. But from my POV it's most likely that nothing much will happen. It's either too expensive, too much work or whatever reason there might be. After a short while not many will waste their thoughts about what happened. One life is not much worth in our world. The things that could have been done, like restricting access to firearms, could have been done already after the first killers went on a killing spree. But there is a powerful lobby that makes it virtually impossible to touch that part of the constitution. So there you go with all the weapons available. Of course that doesn't help people like Cho Seung-hui, it would probably just decrease the number of victims. But at least it would be something that could help. There are too many agendas out there that makes it probably impossible to change things...

The second thought I had... we are maybe also thinking too much about the shooter. Let's see, ten years down the road, who will remember the names of the victims? Probably nobody. But the name of the perpetrator will be remembered. Most probably... unless you're from a family of a victim.

[OctaVentiConPanna]

Being picked on in class will not make a person kill.

Having a mental illness will not make a person kill.

Being alienated will not make a person kill.

What will make a person eventually kill lots of people? All mass murderers have one thing in common is that they were sexually abused when they were young. Look up mass murderers on the internet and look at their past. Sometime in Cho's life, he was either molested or raped.

When a heterosexual man is shown pictures of men having sex with each other, there is a "threat" response that fires off in the brain. It's a response that can be measured even though the guy watching it may not outwardly show emotion. So what do you think happens when a guy gets raped or molested?

Think about that and what happens to men after they come back from prison. The guys who are raped in prison become more violent after leaving prison. The rape of a man, either when he is young or older makes him violent. You can call it rape or abuse, its the same. That guy after getting violated like that will never be the same again. He will want to kill himself, but not after taking out a few motherfuckers along with him. That's how men will react to sexual abuse. That's what pushes a man over the line to kill with a vengeance.

Read Cho's plays. They are not to be taken literally. They are metaphors for the abuse he suffered, especially with regards to Mr. Brownstone. Its not a thing that guys like to talk about. And in Cho's case, he is autistic or mentally unable for some reason and can't speak too good for whatever reason, but he is educated enough to write it down.

'Richard McBeef'
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001


'Mr. Brownstone'
http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

Richard McBeef is about a "father figure" that has somehow replaced his real dad and likes to molest his 13 yr old stepson. And when the son calls him out on his perverted ways, the stepdad kills him.

Mr. Brownstone (the Guns & Roses song) is about some man who he can't get away from. First, he thought he was in a casino which was a safe place and having fun with a girlfriend. He wins the jackpot, but Mr Brownstone shows up and not only ruins his fun, but says the jackpot is his and takes it from him. Cho can never get away from Mr. Brownstone. Cho can never get away from his molester. As is the case with people who were molested.... the hurt, anger, rage..... it stays with them for the rest of their lives.

The media, as usual, is reporting worthless crap. Lots of kids get picked on and laughed at, so fuckin what. So he doesn't want to talk.... what does that mean? The only conclusion one can come to , according to the media is..... he's crazy and killed lotsa people cuz he's crazy. Brilliant hypothesis by the media as always. Thanks man, I woulda never figured dat shit out had you not reported it over and over.

What the media is NOT talking about:

There are almost no interviews with the South Korean witness who was shot but survived and has a slightly different description of the killer.

======
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=22&art_id=nw20070418093520510C653345
"He hid his face behind a mask and had his brown-coloured cap lowered to his eyes. He wore glasses and something like a black ammo jacket," Park said, according to the website of JoongAng Ilbo newspaper.
======

This description differs from most others' description of an Asian male wearing a "boy scout" outfit. No other reports mention him wearing a mask. So which is it, the "boy scout" or a guy with a cap/mask/glasses? This suggests a second shooter and the grave implications behind that.

It takes skill to do what he did in the short amount of time he did it. The Columbine killers, between the both of them with semiautomatic weapons AND a shotgun killed 13, but Cho with just one semiauto 9mm and a .22 kills 32 people? He only bought the guns a couple months ago. Where did he train himself? Was he at the gun range to fire off a few shots to familiarize himself with the recoil? Sure, the recoil of a 9mm is not too bad, but you still have to know how to shoot it even at close range. But apparently, he did know how to use his weapons and quite well:

=====
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1611569,00.html
One federal source told TIME it appears that as many as "a couple of hundred" rounds were fired during the rampage. Cho's extraordinary killing effectiveness suggests someone who was trained, or who trained himself, in "execution-style" killing, according to the federal source.
=====

If he's a "loner", then when did he train himself? The killings suggest a person with skill did it. Firing a gun & killing effectively is a physical skill that requires him to have actually done it before. But I guess the model minority myth explains that eh? Cuz even a psycho Asian is so intelligent he can just purchase a coupla guns, do a pofessional job and put himself in da record books

Also, why were the serial numbers filed off the guns? Why would it matter if he was gonna kill himself and everyone knew it was him? Again, this suggests a second shooter who "completed the job", switched guns and made Cho out as the "lone nut". But that's just a guess on my part, but if the media can second guess the detective's work, then I can too.

Why wasn't Emily Hilscher mentioned in his "manifesto"? You'd think the chick he stalked and then killed, he woulda mentioned it.

Why aren't the parents and sister saying anything? Why are the parents in the hospital? Both are in the hospital? Why? Why haven't they said anything?

=====
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108&page=2
His older sister, Sun-Kyung, graduated from Princeton University in 2004. A source, who asked to be identified as a senior Administration official, said she works for McNeil Technologies, a firm contracted by the State Department to manage reconstruction efforts in Iraq.
=====

McNeil Technologies is basically an outsourced intelligence operation of official U.S. intelligence doing what is better known as "black ops". In foreign countries, they would also be involved in what intelligence circles know as "psy-ops" which can also be used on the domestic front. This info about his sister is very bad news with grave implications. Note the fact that there is no response from his own sister.

Why haven't the doctors who prescribed Cho his meds saying anything? He was taking prescription drugs right before the rampage. It should've been easy to locate the doctors responsible for his care.


I think its best to examine the facts closely and not make flip presumptions like the media is doing.

[little mixed girl]

the news has tracked down his old home in seoul and they keep putting it up.

i don't really think his plays have anything to do with anything that actually happened to him. he was probably writing stuff that was strange and that he though was "good" or "interesting".

msnbc has an article where his uncle says that the family was worried about him becaue he didn't speak much when he was younger and when he did speak it wasn't that well.
maybe he had some autism that was coupled with other things?

[minbo]

I agree that it is highly likely that he was sexually abused, in addition to the emotional abuse by his "peers". I don't agree that prison rape is the cause criminals leave prison more violent than when they entered.

Cho was not a Sith. There does not have to always be a master and an apprentice.

He was crazy, so he could have had a million crazy reasons to file off the serial numbers on his guns. Killing people is hard work. He could have started out with a mask and coat, but decided that it was causing him to break too much of a sweat, so he ditched them, like a runner in a marathon encountering fairer weather than expected ditching rain gear in the first mile.

Lastly, his type of crazy would have taken longer than a year or two to develop, and secretive black ops corporations breaking the law using human guinea pigs domestically are smarter than to experiment on an employee's younger and already crazy brother, who had already been committed once to an institution. If I was them, I'd skim illegal immigrants freshly apprehended while in transport, before they are processed and hit federal detention. No official knowledge that they existed, no paper trail. Honest Abe. They died in the desert or down in the hull of a ship. Then stick them in a controlled environment so you can keep track of them and scientifically measure response to whatever you are testing, instead of an uncontrolled environment with a huge number of outside influences and large amounts of time you can't monitor the subject, such as a college campus.

[minbo]

And as for shit lists, lots of people kept them when they were young. I don't think that it minimizes you or will relegate you to the fringes of the board. It's called troubled teenage years for a reason. I didn't have a written list, but if you asked me back then, I could have told you exactly who was a waste of humanity that DESERVED to be killed, actually SHOULD be killed as a service to society, and exactly how I would do it. I could have even showed you the weapons I would use that I carried on my person daily, and the locations it would have gone down at.

The difference between Cho and I is a subtle but important one. I believed that I had choices, I believed that I ultimately my choices could affect the outcome of events.

He did not feel that he had any choice that could affect the outcome of events. The feeling of helplessness which prevents you from seeking and accepting help from those around you. The feeling being adrift in on the rickety, disintegrating raft of your existence, tossed randomly by currents, waves and winds out of your control; the overwhelming feeling of loss of control over your own life felt by the suicidal.

So no, Cho, you, I and everyone else who has been picked on and/or treated unfairly in their youth and felt homicidal are not alone. Cho is alone in that unlike the masses that have flirted with suicide and homicide, everyone else made a choice and he made a different choice. Because in the end, Cho was a homicidal maniac.

[minbo]

When you are in psychotic suicidal or "suicidal and homicidal" state, as they say, all roads lead to Rome. You have seen the future. You know the future. It looms in front of you like a black hole, sucking away your life. You are within the event horizon. No matter what you do, no matter what you decide, you KNOW that you will end up to the same place. All those choices and decision are fools gold, because the true larger outcome is inevitable. Psychotic people KNOW that there are only two REAL choices, circle the drain in a long interminable suffering, or escape by dying, possibly taking out some people while you are at it if you are the homicidal type.

Cho may have been pre-disposed if he had some specialized damage to certain portions of his brain at birth, but he may well have been a normal person who was emotionally stunted and emotionally damaged in his youth by his environment. The knife edge between someone who can be "normalized" and someone who is psychoticly suicidal or "suicidal and homicidal", this psychotic break, can happen at any stage of life, young, old, middle aged. Once you have had a psychotic break to the ultimate suicidal or suicidal homicidal state, even if you are "helped" though the darkness, once, twice, three times... you know that the black hole will always be there, lurking on the fringes of your mind. Lurking and waiting to entrap you at some point of weakness in the future when you are emotionally vulnerable or wounded. You can't truly be "cured". Just given life support to get you through the current crisis. Perhaps in the right environment, right therapy or with the right drugs you can stave it off longer, perhaps indefinately, but in the end, it is always there, crawling around the dark recesses of your mind, gnawing away at the roots of your emotional stability. Your constant companion, like a heroine addiction.

If you can see a different path, no matter how unlikely, no matter hard it may be to achieve, no matter how undesirable it may be, just seeing a potential way out that you can make an actual choice that can affect your destiny, that the future is not inevitable, then you are not psychotic. Just really really depressed and possibly very angry. You can make a decision beyond living and dieing. You can still commit suicide or kill people. You can improve your situation and be "cured". Even so, the feeling of loss of control, the helplessness, it can stalk you and be your constant companion for your entire life, or perhaps it will leave after one incident never to return.

I'm not simplifying too much. It all comes down to that decision. Cho is psychotic because he built himself into a world where he had only one course of action. To kill and die. Every other choice he made did not alter his course, the thousand failed chances to save him proving to him that he had only one option.

Perhaps he could have been helped when he was 8, perhaps it was already too late even then. Perhaps he could have been saved two years ago, perhaps not. I don't know what the event was that caused him to cross the rubicon or when it happened, but it is obvious that he did have a psychotic break. That for at least the past few months he had already made his decision, he had taken steps to execute his decision, he had taken steps to document his 'manifesto". For those past few months at least, he was "unsavable", though he certainly could have been stopped from his course of action, and with the correct intervention, placed on permanent emotional life support via drugs and therapy. Forever living with the danger that he would return to walk down that path again later.

[WuZhao]

I got this email today from a listserve i'm on. Though I have heard about one of the guys who threw the table to the door.

----------------
Sent to me by a faculty member I am friendly with there....

Dear all,

I would like to share with you the oustanding act of bravery that took
place today in Norris Hall. Without this wonderful courage the list of
victims would have been longer with several Computer Science students.
This is the story I've learned from Haiyan and Theresa.

Haiyan Cheng, our CS Ph.D. student, was substitute-teaching CS 4414 in 205
Norris Hall this morning. Around 9:45 very loud noises were heard from the
corridor. Haiyan and one student went outside to see what was happening.
What they saw was a young men with a gun exiting a classroom. As soon as
he saw them he pointed the gun to them (and shot at them but missed).
Haiyan and the student ran quickly back in the classroom and closed the
door after them; Haiyan told the students to lay down; three men from the
classroom rushed to the door and held it closed. The killer tried several
times to force-enter the 205 classroom. He then shot two bullets through
the door inside the classroom. Fortunately these bullets did not hit
anybody inside. The killer gave up and went on to other classrooms ...

Haiyan and all the students in CS 4414 are safe. They are: Anandakrishnan,
Ramamoorthi; Peduzzi, Alicia; Radlick, Brian; Zhang, Ruiqi; Chambers,
Micah; Kaiser, Lisa; Lust, Jennifer; Macko, Nikolas; Motta, Christopher;
Petkewicz, Zachary; Quinlan, Brian; Simmons, Jacob; Sweezey, Brett; Walsh,
Theresa

-----------------------

[LowFrequency]

It takes skill to do what he did in the short amount of time he did it. The Columbine killers, between the both of them with semiautomatic weapons AND a shotgun killed 13, but Cho with just one semiauto 9mm and a .22 kills 32 people? He only bought the guns a couple months ago. Where did he train himself? Was he at the gun range to fire off a few shots to familiarize himself with the recoil? Sure, the recoil of a 9mm is not too bad, but you still have to know how to shoot it even at close range. But apparently, he did know how to use his weapons and quite well:

=====
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1611569,00.html
One federal source told TIME it appears that as many as "a couple of hundred" rounds were fired during the rampage. Cho's extraordinary killing effectiveness suggests someone who was trained, or who trained himself, in "execution-style" killing, according to the federal source.
=====

If he's a "loner", then when did he train himself? The killings suggest a person with skill did it. Firing a gun & killing effectively is a physical skill that requires him to have actually done it before. But I guess the model minority myth explains that eh? Cuz even a psycho Asian is so intelligent he can just purchase a coupla guns, do a pofessional job and put himself in da record books



Keep in mind he was firing into crowded classrooms full of defenseless people. He could have been blind and still killed that many people. The police reports say over 200 shots were fired. Given the firing rate of the guns (with the glock a whole clip can be emptied in a matter of seconds) it's not hard to believe that so many shots were fired by one person. It's just a matter of pulling the trigger into a crowd of people, and reloading your gun when its empty.

He probably could have killed more people, but for some reason he stopped. Perhaps he had a number in mind.

Definitely agree that sexual abuse may have been part of his history. His stories definitely have an thematic undercurrent of sexual abuse.

Although, sexual abuse is not a necessary precursor to murder, as you imply. Many murderers were not sexually abused as children.

[atlasien]

Minbo, your description of the "spiral into the void" is chilling. I have seen it myself a couple times. In grad school, one of my roommates (also my friend) had a psychotic break triggered by academic stress. We took him to the clinic where they diagnosed "psychotic depression". What this meant was that he was having delusions in a frighteningly passive state. He would not have raised a hand to anyone else, or to himself, but it seemed like he could have died through sheer neglect if he was alone. In the week leading up to the break, he was forgetting to do more and more things... like forgetting to drink water. When the break happened, he even forgot his name. After a period of intense therapy and medication he recovered.

Just last year, my upstairs neighbor had a psychotic break. It was schizophrenia aggravated by alcoholism. This guy was the much, much crazier roommate of the crazy Chinese-American guy I wrote about earlier... we avoided contact with him for months but sometimes he would knock on our door asking about noises that we couldn't hear. Then one day he threatened to rape me... I called the police but he got really lucid all of a sudden and persuaded them everything was fine, so they went away. A few hours later he stabbed himself and ran off into the night. He was eventually apprehended, and I assume he's better now, although we didn't stick around to find out (we moved).

Although I've never studied psychology I can see the signs of something like that now. On the other hand, even if someone is exhibiting signs, that doesn't mean we can just lock them up pre-emptively. If someone refuses help, how can you make them accept it, in such a way that it doesn't destroy the civil rights of another person who is merely eccentric?

[kwak76]

Just to change the subject a little but there has been some backlash already. I have a Korean friend who has a niece that goes to Jr . High school and kids are already picking on him because he is Korean and calling him a "mass murderer".

His niece asked his uncle if he should tell people that he is Chinese. The uncle said ",No your an American since you were born here with Korean background and you have nothing to be ashamed of. Anyone that bothers you hit them back and tell the teacher."

I saluted my friend for giving the right answer. I still hear that young Korean students are afriad of getting jumped or feel guilty about the whole thing. I just get mad. I keep telling every Korean I meet we did nothing wrong. Fuck the old fashion thinking about Koreans are the same or whatever but yeah....that old school of thought of Cho representing all Koreans are still in some Korean people mind set.

Which sucks but you have Korean people making it more of a racial thing than white people.

[OctaVentiConPanna]

Minbo, I'm not saying he was taught to kill so many by a master. I'm saying he could not have done what the media is saying he did and there is evidence pointing to another shooter.

And I'm not refering to his sister's company as some "experiement". What I'm alluding to has to do with technology that's way past the R&D stage and is fully operational and for quite a number of decades. The company she works for has a bunch of euphemisms on their website which simply means that they're there to overthrow governments. The "support of Iraq" is a euphemism. Also, it is notable that Cho is S. Korean as they have long standing ties with the U.S. intelligence establishment. The Unification Church is an intelligence front which figures heavily in mind control. Its not an accident that his sister is not talking to the media and its not simply because Cho "went crazy".

And yes, they profile and select relatives to do tasks. John Hinkley, who shot President Reagan was the son of a prominent Hinkley family who were family friends of George H. Bush and regularly had dinner with them.

Read "Blood Oath" by Carl Jaspers and Steven Worth for how intelligence operatives experienced in counter-insurgency operations operate here in the U.S. working a psy-op.... op meaning operation to achieve a goal, not experimentation.

Something like this requires a long explanation which the media is not capable of doing as they are there to do quick sound bites designed to sell products instead of report real news. Intelligence operatives know this and use to play the public and sway public opinion a certain way.

[Scowl]

Octa, what would the goal of such an operation be?

[ellencho]

Octa, what would the goal of such an operation be?
Scowl, I think we've gone over this enough times:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a120/foxandpoo/everythingelse/pinky_brain.jpg

[atlasien]

But the Mongolians are pulling the puppet strings.

[angi]

I was listening to a psychologist/phychiatrist I can't remember which talking about how schizophrenia usually appears in young people and it is not unusual for it to appear when peeps head off for college and that he would certainly fit that description at least on the surface. I kind of wonder if he was a little off and then went full on once he was in school? He clearly was bonkers.

His rage seemed more focused on the things he didn't have or could not have that perceived the other students as having (ie the "rich kids" with their material possessions.) I am sure the race angle will pop up eventually but really, he seemed to be living in a world where everyone got what they wanted and their having those things were intentionally depriving him of having those things. Like he took it personally.

[silkie]

Hey Guys,
I somehow came up on this on Youtube:
( http://youtube.com/watch?v=9n4seliXgSY )
Massacre at Virginia Tech shooter video uncut

No, it is not Cho's tape, but instead some fucking idiot that thinks making fun of the tape is funny. I don't care how long it has been from this event, I don't think there is any way you can milk something funny from 30 people dying senselessly.

Here is something that ought to make you angry--below is his description of his piece:

the uncut video tape of the Virginia Tech shooter

ranting about this and that


I couldn't keep myself from doing this
he sounds like napoleon dynamite
some people say it's too soon

but I would argue that napoleon dynamite has been out almost three years I think more then enough time has passed for me to make fun of it

quick joke: imagine how many people the virginia tech guy could have killed if he could look up and down

to the idiots saying making fun is what made him do this,I'm not afraid of this gook comming back from his grave and killing me with his empty skull, the problem isn't making fun of this idiot, it comes from showing him as a hero and cool action star. he should be publicly trashed because if he is called out as the loser he was people will less want to copycat.

quick note: this is only a joke, I don't want any calls from the fbi or anything of that nature (more) (less)


You know, I hate to say this, but back in my mine I wish the good people that died during the incident can be replaced by this piece of shit excuse of human existance.

[atlasien]

Hey Guys,
I somehow came up on this on Youtube:
( http://youtube.com/watch?v=9n4seliXgSY )
Here is something that ought to make you angry--below is his description of his piece:


I flagged it... goddamn racist dickhead. What is it with troglodytes on Youtube.

[atlasien]

I was listening to a psychologist/phychiatrist I can't remember which talking about how schizophrenia usually appears in young people and it is not unusual for it to appear when peeps head off for college and that he would certainly fit that description at least on the surface.

That's immediately what I thought too. Men with schizophrenia often manifest it for the first time in their early 20s. It's something involving genetics and neurochemistry.

On the other hand, schizophrenics are not necessarily violent at all. Often they'll just absolutely fall to pieces, have very disorganized thinking and could not do anything near as planned and methodical as Cho did. Another hallmark is hearing voices (auditory hallucinations) and so far no one has reported that Cho heard voices.

Wikipsychologizing as to something less defined but more solidly applicable:

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder"]A pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others such that their motives are interpreted as malevolent, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

* suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him or her
* is preoccupied with unjustified doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates
* is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him or her
* reads hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks or events
* persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries, or slights
* perceives attacks on his or her character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counterattack
* has recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding fidelity of spouse or sexual partner.
* Does not occur exclusively during the course of schizophrenia, a mood disorder with psychotic features, or another psychotic disorder and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a general medical condition.
* unforgiving
* bears grudges
* suspicious (of others)
* perceives attacks (and reacts quickly)
* sees enemy in everyone
* suspects associates, friends
* confiding in others feared
* threats seen in benign events

[peta9]

Words, words, words... Citing sources is hard work!

[peta9]

Waa waa waa waa waa - the immortal words of Charlie Brown's teacher.

[peta9]

Maybe one day I'll learn how to participate in message board discussions like a sane human being. But for now I'm satisfied with admins deleting my posts because I don't know how to heed their warnings. Good times!

[peta9]

I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes. I must remember to cite the source of my quotes.

[ellencho]

Peta9 if you're interested in participating in this conversation you're going to need to cite the sources of your quotes. It looks like you grabbed a bunch of quotes from here and there and there is no real context for what you have posted. I'll give you until tomorrow morning, if it's not done by then I'll delete all your posts from this thread.

[jaehwan]

It looks like Cho's sister just released a family statement:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/20/shooting.family.statement/index.html

I feel bad for the family. And yes, there is an apology, but I thought it was done in a very good way (or as good as it can be in a situation like this).

Incidentally, does anyone remember if Klebold's and Harris's families released a public statement after Columbine?

[Dialectic]

These are the two most telling articles I've read on what was going on inside Cho. When read in combination, you very easily see the biological/genetic as well as social factors which made him what he is.

1. He was born autistic
2. He received no treatment.
3. His family was poor.
4. His family was culturally separated.
4. He was a visible minority immigrant.
5. He was a bullied social outcast.

He was born with a biological/ psychological pathology which was made worse by his economic and social circumstances. We're talking about a kid with untreated autism and a poor immigrant family, which made him a magnet for abuse.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=we-are-glad-he-is-dead-by-cho-s-family--&method=full&objectid=18931479&siteid=89520-name_page.html

[Dialectic]

I've briefly fleshed out my thoughts above here:
http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2007/04/21/virginia-tech-killer-a-bullied-autistic/

[wuwei]

A lot of the older Asians dont even know what Autism is.

Traditional Chinese medicine has a much better grasp of physical illnesses than mental illnesses.

[kwak76]

Good point. I think in traditional Asian family when it comes to mental health it is still taboo topic. For example when I told my family I that I was seeing a shrink they pretty much black sheep me for awhile and I got no support what so ever.

I think in Cho case his general IQ was good.(shit he got in VT for petesake) So I guess his folks thought he was kind of normal as long as he was doing well in school.

Sometimes with korean family all they care about is academics . I think if they asked him if had any friends or maybe a girl friend there might of been tell tale signs of problems. I'm just speculating here but sometimes the old fashion Korean adage is just work work work and nothing else has it's problems.

I could kind of relate with my family. Just go to school do well and get a job and work hard. Notice nothing else matters. I'm not saying all Korean families are like this but plenty are. It's like having fun or a social life is unheard of for Korean people.

I hate to say this but if your a mental disturb kid having a traditional Korean family is not good to have. Not saying I'm hating on the Korean families is just that they don't know how to deal with it and if they are presented with it they like to play ignorance.

[aelward]

Traditional Chinese medicine has a much better grasp of physical illnesses than mental illnesses.

That's not true. In Chinese Medicine, mental and physical illnesses go hand-in-hand, as manifestations of imbalances.

[OctaVentiConPanna]

Octa, what would the goal of such an operation be?

:-) Did you not read my post?

I'll give you a riddle that once you solve, you will find it most amusing.....

Go to Amazon.com and look up "Blood Oath by Carl Jaspers Steven Worth" and read the excerpt from the beginning of the book.... Then:

Look at the pic of Express Mail package sent to NBC:

Look at the address and spell it backwards

Look at one of pics from Cho's package and notice on one of the pics the curious formation that looks like 2 numbers intertwined.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18186080/

Note the timing of the event is close to whose birthday?

Soooo..... package was from _________ ?

Complete the sentence and goddammit if ya don't git yoself a kneeslapper.

[Hater Depot]

I hate to say this but if your a mental disturb kid having a traditional Korean family is not good to have. Not saying I'm hating on the Korean families is just that they don't know how to deal with it and if they are presented with it they like to play ignorance.

"Susan" here seems to have similar perspective.


http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2007/04/the_politics_of.html#comment-67087492

As to Seung Cho, I don't want mainstream media commentators like Anderson Cooper, Wolf Blitzer, Brian Williams, or Greta Whats-Her-Face, to discuss the race factor, because as understanding as they might want to be, they will NEVER understand. And in their well-meaning, hard-hitting, white-journalism way, they'll oversimplify what's going on and fuck the whole analysis up, because it's a ratings game. And then the ignorant white masses who watch these shows will take these simple analyses as gospel truth and do stupid things like vandalize Korean owned stores and assault Korean Americans.

I want US, Korean-Americans to talk about it, because something is indeed rotten in Denmark, or Korea, or Korean-America, whatever. The funny thing is, a friend and I, another Korean-American (a male, by the way, who despite his parents best efforts managed to turn out okay), were discussing the shooting, and the first thing both us said was it was totally his parents.

Here's the profile they don't talk about: 23 year-old UNDERGRADUATE SENIOR at VIRGINIA TECH with a history of MENTAL ILLNESS.

...

Fine, I don't really know what went on in his house, I can only make assumptions and educated guesses, but I'm thinking his parents weren't all that supportive, loving, and actively seeking their son help. More likely than not they probably called him a dumbshit on various occasions asking him why he couldn't be more like his sister. So he withdrew into the voices in his head. He became delusional, and progressively more violent until he decided to shoot up thirty-two innocent students and himself.

[kwak76]

to be fair I don't know Cho parents. Maybe his family tried to be supportive . I don't know. I'm just speculating here but I do agree that traditional Korean family don't like to talk about these things.

My parents are like that. Sometimes when I visit my parents house I could have the most saddest or darkest expression. You name it. If you read my body language I probably being like "yellowperil" and my parents could careless.

On occasion my dad may ask me how is everything and if I answer how I really feel he wouldn't understand. If I tell him I have a problem believe it or not my dad would get angry at me. Instead of actually sitting down with me and helping me with my problems he end up lecturing me as if I was still a 10 years old. Believe it or not at the age of 30 this still happens.

That's why I rarely visit my folks . I do love my family but sometimes I have crazy dreams that I beat up my dad. No , don't worry I'm not going to do anything like that but it's more like a fit of rage that comes and goes because they don't take the time to actually care about my problems.

I'm not saying all Korean parents are like this nor do I want to generalize but I seen enough cases where as long as you are doing well in school and have a job and doing well. The Korean parents thinks your doing OK .

I think in Cho case his family was working too hard to take care of them so they didn't really have time to really sit down with him. To allot of Korean families by working hard for the family is showing that you care about the family.

Cho never committed a crime in the past and he did go to college. So I think his family probably thought he was strange kid but kind of normal. Believe it or not I gone to other family function and met other Korean families and met there sons. I remeber this one time I met this other Korean kid. I tried talking to him. Wouldn't say a word. He was like there but not there.

I don't know. Sounds fucked up. If anything I'm hoping the Cho case helps open eyes to Korean families that we have to face mental problems and it is not taboo but something important that has to be done.

To Korean people when it comes to mental illness or people with physcial problems they don't give the right support. Go to South Korea they are behind maybe 30 years to the USA in this department.

[RebelAzn]

to be fair I don't know Cho parents. Maybe his family tried to be supportive . I don't know. I'm just speculating here but I do agree that traditional Korean family don't like to talk about these things.

My parents are like that. Sometimes when I visit my parents house I could have the most saddest or darkest expression. You name it. If you read my body language I probably being like "yellowperil" and my parents could careless.

On occasion my dad may ask me how is everything and if I answer how I really feel he wouldn't understand. If I tell him I have a problem believe it or not my dad would get angry at me. Instead of actually sitting down with me and helping me with my problems he end up lecturing me as if I was still a 10 years old. Believe it or not at the age of 30 this still happens.

That's why I rarely visit my folks . I do love my family but sometimes I have crazy dreams that I beat up my dad. No , don't worry I'm not going to do anything like that but it's more like a fit of rage that comes and goes because they don't take the time to actually care about my problems.

I'm not saying all Korean parents are like this nor do I want to generalize but I seen enough cases where as long as you are doing well in school and have a job and doing well. The Korean parents thinks your doing OK .

I think in Cho case his family was working too hard to take care of them so they didn't really have time to really sit down with him. To allot of Korean families by working hard for the family is showing that you care about the family.

Cho never committed a crime in the past and he did go to college. So I think his family probably thought he was strange kid but kind of normal. Believe it or not I gone to other family function and met other Korean families and met there sons. I remeber this one time I met this other Korean kid. I tried talking to him. Wouldn't say a word. He was like there but not there.

I don't know. Sounds fucked up. If anything I'm hoping the Cho case helps open eyes to Korean families that we have to face mental problems and it is not taboo but something important that has to be done.

To Korean people when it comes to mental illness or people with physcial problems they don't give the right support. Go to South Korea they are behind maybe 30 years to the USA in this department.

I agree. I think Asian Americans need to wake up and realize there are people with mental health issues in our community like everyone else. If we try to hide these problems, they won't go away on its own. This is also a wake up call to the Asian American community as well.

[little mixed girl]

A lot of the older Asians dont even know what Autism is.

Traditional Chinese medicine has a much better grasp of physical illnesses than mental illnesses.
when i was going around with my friend in korea 2 yrs ago, she was telling me that her relatives were saying that a young cousin of her's was "autistic".
but what they meant by "autistic" was that "he's quite", not the "autistic" that you would associate with a mental disorder...that was interesting.

[Hater Depot]

To Korean people when it comes to mental illness or people with physcial problems they don't give the right support. Go to South Korea they are behind maybe 30 years to the USA in this department.

http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=390145

Dr. Daniel Fisher, an American psychiatrist, recently visited South Korea at the invitation of the National Human Rights Commission. His observations gleaned from the trip, which he included on his Web site, are telling: "South Korea is still operating the type of institution-based system seen in the U.S. 40 years ago," he wrote. According to Fisher, people labeled with mental illness in South Korea are treated as an extreme underclass.

He visited Yongin Hospital on the outskirts of Seoul and was shocked by what he saw. The model of psychiatry practiced in South Korea reflects the hierarchy of Confucianism, essentially meaning that the father has the power to admit members of his family as he sees fit -- one wife was admitted for two months for changing her religion; one young man was in for a year for yelling at his father. In addition to fifteen people sharing a room, the hospital carries out ECT without anesthesia which leads to broken bones.

Scary. Though, I've heard quite terrible things about American institutions as well.

[nskripchun]

The conspiracy theories have started.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april...dcontrolled.htm (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/190407mindcontrolled.htm)

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/april2007/190407killer.jpg

http://cho-seung-hui-news.newslib.com/story/10080-10/
One Response to “Cho Seung-Hui - The Conspiracy”

1. PROBE Says:
May 2nd, 2007 at 1:28 pm

Did Cho have an accomplice or was he set up?

FACTS

1. In order to shoot 2 to 3 shots with both guns in the hand, accurately, the person must be a professional shooter.
(Colombine incident included 2 people, 3guns, 900 shots=13 deaths)

CSH(Cho Seung Hee) was never trained in the army
If you have shot a gun before, you would know
it is hard to fire a pistol so accurately, in such quick time

CSH had only bought the guns a month before the shooting. How is it possible for him to shoot so well?

2. Emily, reported to be his former girlfriend, is actually not his girlfriend

3. Emily was not related with CSH in any way, but he went to her dormitory and killed her.

4. Cho’s body had 2 shots in the chest, 1 in the head
There are 3 common ways of suicidal with gun
1)shooting from the side of the head
2)shooting through your mouth
3)Shooting from under your head

The usual suicide would have shots in the side of the head or the face, usually. CSH, however,

had a bullet stuck in the back of the head

Most people who were fired at got 3 shots
CSH, was found with 3 shots in his body just like any other victims

It is extremely hard to shoot yourself multiple times after being shot in the chest or the head. Again, CSH had 1 shot in the head, 2 shots in the chest

Why was he shot 3 times, just like the others?
does it make sense that he was shot in such a way?

5. There was no witness to the suicide scene
the survivors in the scene had run out of the classroom (he said the killer’s eyes were not Asian)

-this kind of explanation were ignored

What’s the truth?

6. Nobody saw CSH’s face

7. The witness’s say CSH was an Asian with a mask on, and was about 6 ft tall and big

8. The gun vender described CSH as an Asian. Period.
There were no films of CCTV, and no other evidences

9. The vender said he had sold 50 bullets to CSH
There were 62 deaths and injuries
There was no one who died was shot less than 3 times
(32 deaths x 3 shots/death….30 injuries x 2 shots/injury…60 extra bullets)

Calculated, CSH must have had more than 200 shots to make this incident true

10. The killer had erased the code on the gun. The receipt for the purchase of the gun was found in the killer’s bag. What are the possibilities of the killer keeping the receipt for the gun after a month?
If anyone would take effort and time to erase the code on the gun, wouldn’t they be careful enough to get rid of the receipt? (It’s not easy to erase the code. It takes few seconds to get rid of the receipt)

11. The witnesses said the killer did not wear, nor carry any bags. CSH, did have a bag

12. Obviously, the video he had sent, was not made by himself. Even New York Times pointed this out.

13. According to the Police, the gun at the incident was automatic. Watch the videos and hear the sounds. It’s all fired with single shots.

Think about it. There are about 10~15 rounds in a pistol, and there were 32 deaths, with 3 shots in each. With both pistols in both hands, it is impossible to reload. Watch the video, it is constantly fired.

14. CSH had no friends at all, according to a student. Before a few days of the incident, he was with 3 other Americans. Who were they?

15. In the news, CSH had done this for the hate of the rich people. If this is true, he could have simply shot the classrooms. There was no reason for him to go to the dormitories and kill 2 people, who were not in any relations with CSH.

And why did CSH, after the first shooting, make the video and walk around the school to send it, and then go to the 2nd shooting?

16. When CSH’s body was found, his ID was PRESENT, it was there. Why was his identity reported later on?

17. The Witness’ sayings do not match correctly. Some say that they did not hear the gunfire in their building, but other say they heard it from that building.

18. The photos which were sent to NBC do not match CSH’s face.
Observing the eyebrows, eyes, and the face shape, it is different. Some say it’s because he has his glasses off. Look again, it does not match CSH.

19. CSH’s body was found with the 28 dead bodies in the classroom. The only survivor said, the killer had run away after killing the 28 people, while CSH was found dead with the other dead bodies

20. The classroom, dormitory, hallways, school gate, the gunshop.
The films of the CCTV were NOT exposed to the public. WHY?

So What’s wrong with the reports/news?

-CCTV
-2 guns/amature, yet many students died and many were injured as a professional shooter would have done it
-According to the witness, CSH had apparently left the classroom
-CSH was found dead in the classroom
-The gun code was erased
-The receipt for the gun was found in the bag

These are the theories I’ve made about this

-CSH had bought the guns for someone else?
-The killer knew CSH did not have a positive social life
-The killer decided to use CSH
-The killer had planned this out to keep himself covered