Soez, Bruce Lee VS anyone

[Vetrean]

Do you think anyone, from any time period where we have an accurate judge of their abilities, could beat Bruce Lee?

At a glance, it appears no, but I wanted to get your opinions on this as well, because you all probably know about it more than I do.

[minbo]

These open ended hypothetical questions really suck.

If it was Miyamoto Musashi in full armour, he probably would have no problems dispatching Bruce Lee fighting with his bare hands and no shirt. Agrippa properly could also do the same in similar situations. Heck, stick Bruce Lee unarmed at one end of a NYC subway and Goetz on the other side with a small frame .38 probably could also. William Tell at 100 yards with a drawn bow. What if you stick Bruce Lee at what his current age would have been if he had not died in a jello wrestling match against Chad Rowan in his prime as a Yokozuna? How about if I fought Bruce Lee and he promised to not use either of his arms, nor one of his legs, the other foot was encased in a pail of cement AND he wore a full gimp mask with ball gag? I MIGHT be able to beat him.

[Pat the Great]

mike tyson would most likely fuck bruce lee up.

or any professional MMA fighter.

and sagat.

[lopan]

mike tyson would most likely fuck bruce lee up.

or any professional MMA fighter.

True -- but Bruce can be considered the father of modern-day MMA. Although he went ahead and codified his knowledge into JKD, it really was the beginning of a mixed martial arts discipline.

Obviously, any MMA fighter today would be able to kick Bruce's ass if he was still around, was in his prime, and only knows what he knew at that time. Heck, any decent MMA fighter today (not even top-tier) could take out any of hte MMA guys from 15 years ago.

I think it's very important not to discount the learning, knowledge and experience of a martial disicpline that comes with time. So, an MMA guy today can defeat a similar-level MMA guy from 15 years ago. A WingChun practitioner today (e.g. Tommy Caruthers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NWc33qQnqU) can probably defeat Ng Mui or any of the old WC masters.

Techniques become refined. Redundant moves are discarded. It's like sculpting; slowly chipping away until the true form is revealed.

[lopan]

These open ended hypothetical questions really suck.

What are you talking about? I LOVE these hypotheticals! They're a ton of fun.

[lopan]

mike tyson would most likely fuck bruce lee up.


I don't think so. I think Bruce would win so long as he didn't allow himself to get slugged by Tyson. One shot, and Bruce would be down -- and Bruce would know that. He was a smart guy.

Bruce had a bunch of tools. He loved to grapple. I'm sure Bruce would NOT go toe-to-toe with Tyson in a boxing match. He'd shoot in, take Tyson to the ground, and submit him.

Unless Tyson bit Bruce. Then it's an entirely different fight altogether.

[atlasien]

My favorite one is, if a lion and a polar bear had a fight, who would win? :confused:

Most people automatically say, the polar bear. But under certain environmental conditions I think the lion could win.

[kimtae]

Bruce weighed 135lbs. That's something to consider. I'd give him the pound per pound greatest ever title but think what a 235lb Fedor or a 280lb Mark Hunt would be like for him to fight. Quantity has a quality of its own and a good big man will always beat a good small man.

[minbo]

I don't mind hypothetical match ups, I just don't like open ended ones. Any good competitor, be it martial arts or sports, analyzes the situation to try to create a strategic or tactical advantage based upon the ground rules. With the open ended "Can X beat Y", because there are no ground rules specified or assumed, anyone can beat anyone else if you engineer the situation correctly.

Can Bruce Lee beat Mike Tyson? What are the rules, does Bruce Lee have to fight in a boxing ring? Is he constrained by ANY of the rules of Boxing (because standard boxing stance does not protect against take downs or address protection below the waist)? Is Tyson wearing boxing gloves (would impair grappling, though we all know now that Tyson knows how to use his teeth, would that be legal in this matchup)? Are we talking about Tyson of today vs Tyson of his championship days? How about a "Pre K" match, where it is Bruce Lee of 4 years old vs Tyson of 4 years old?

If the question is "Can the 2006 Yankees beat the 1976 Yankees", at least most people can assume that they are all playing the same game with the same rules. Hell, even Vanilla Ice could probably beat Bruce Lee in a rap contest, and we can easily judge Vanilla Ices "skillz".

As far as Bruce Lee vs current MMA, ar we to assume that Bruce Lee is frozen in time at the skill and MMA knowledge when he died, as opposed to him having lived and developed as the sport evolved? Are we going to assume that he is at his physical prime, or older, impared by arthritis and hobbled by successive broken backs?

How about a bare minimum of ground rules, like "In an UFC match, Bruce Lee in his prime vs anyone".

[kimtae]

My buddy at 125lbs is no Bruce Lee but he has a third degree blackbelt. I'm no Mark Hunt at 215lbs and I was only a yellowbelt at the time we sparred. He was blazing fast and would connect on me ten for one but everyone of my one would plant him squarely on his ass. After three shots he couldn't get up so we called it off. Again, consider the size advantage that today's top heavyweight MMA fighters like Crocop and El Guapo would have on Bruce. I think Bruce would have a hard time even coping with a "small" K1 fighter like Kaoklai at 6' 180lbs. Back in my day I got into it with a judoka who was about 135lbs. He was by far the superior grappler but couldn't get me off my feet for lack of simple strength. Once he put an arm bar on me that should have ended it but I powered out pretty easily. I don't think Bruce would have had the necessary strength to take on a highly skilled 250lb monster.

[Vetrean]

Muh bad for making it too open-ended. I suppose I was expecting people to know what I meant, though that's not really a realistic expectation with what I posted.

Bruce Lee in his prime VS any other martial artist, under any roughly even conditions(ie if you want Musashi VS Bruce, then Bruce isn't going to be frikkin' bare-handed. :\).

Also, I did mention 'accurate judge of abilities,' so unless you have a secret book detailing just what Miyamoto Musashi could do, he doesn't count. XD

Also, there are no rules detailing what kind of match it needs to be; if it's Tyson, just say 'if blahblahblah is the condition, blahblahblah will happen.' Or assume that everything is allowed except for 'dirty' blows. Biting too, I suppose.

EDIT: Also, if you feel like it, you can go with Bruce grown some more, arthritic Bruce, blahblahblah. It might be interesting.

Incidentally, I'm not quite sure you could just power through Bruce Lee. Then again, I don't have a particularly accurate measure of what's commonly expected nowadays.

[gregmanders]

I don't think Bruce would have had the necessary strength to take on a highly skilled 250lb monster.

I find it amusing when people try to rationalize that "the newer generation of specialized 250lbs fighters can easily beat fighters of decades past." That is just pure ignorance.

Since these are hypothetical match-ups, the answer will never be known... however, to write off a master like Bruce Lee because, in your mind, "a 135lb man cannot defeat a 250lb man," is simplistic and myopic.

In my personal opinion, if the fight were no-holds-barred and without restriction, I can't think of a known fighter, past or present, who could defeat Lee. But with the restrictions of modern sanctioned fighting, I think Lee would have a difficult time competing against some of the current crop of "beasts." And that is only because these "beasts" excel at a sport where there are very specific rules which prevent their vulnerabilities from being exploited... they wouldn't be so quick to charge in and grapple if they were standing across the ring from someone like Bruce Lee, if there were no rules against neck, eye, or groin strikes for example - with Lee's speed and power, the "beast" might end up on the ground 15 seconds into the fight, with their eyeball rolling around on the ground next to them and their larnyx smashed.

I'm not saying Lee was the best fighter ever to walk the earth - certainly there have been at least a few men as gifted as Lee throughout history - though I would guess Lee was among the best ever. But there has never really been an arena for men like Bruce Lee to test their abilities without restrictions. So to make a claim like "Lee couldn't handle a highly skilled 250lb monster" is absolutely baseless.

[theme]

I think he might have a tiny tiny chance against a low skilled heavy weight, but I don't think he would be able to handle guys like Fedor Emelianenko or Cro-Cop.

[.:hanbox3r]

I find it amusing when people try to rationalize that "the newer generation of specialized 250lbs fighters can easily beat fighters of decades past." That is just pure ignorance.

Since these are hypothetical match-ups, the answer will never be known... however, to write off a master like Bruce Lee because, in your mind, "a 135lb man cannot defeat a 250lb man," is simplistic and myopic.

In my personal opinion, if the fight were no-holds-barred and without restriction, I can't think of a known fighter, past or present, who could defeat Lee. But with the restrictions of modern sanctioned fighting, I think Lee would have a difficult time competing against some of the current crop of "beasts." And that is only because these "beasts" excel at a sport where there are very specific rules which prevent their vulnerabilities from being exploited... they wouldn't be so quick to charge in and grapple if they were standing across the ring from someone like Bruce Lee, if there were no rules against neck, eye, or groin strikes for example - with Lee's speed and power, the "beast" might end up on the ground 15 seconds into the fight, with their eyeball rolling around on the ground next to them and their larnyx smashed.

I'm not saying Lee was the best fighter ever to walk the earth - certainly there have been at least a few men as gifted as Lee throughout history - though I would guess Lee was among the best ever. But there has never really been an arena for men like Bruce Lee to test their abilities without restrictions. So to make a claim like "Lee couldn't handle a highly skilled 250lb monster" is absolutely baseless.

Time and time again this argument has been presented, and time and time again, it has been disproven.

Go online and search for street fight or "style vs style" clips. You will see numerous methods of dirty fighting employed. Eye gouges, fish hooks, ball grabs... the whole book. And yet, the people who employed them are still beaten to a pulp. Watch the early UFCs. True NHB, yet it was always the grapplers, the ones who so-called traditionalists eschewed as being vulnerable to dirty tricks, who would win.

Gerard Gordeau eye gouged Yuki Kondo, causing him to go *blind* in that eye, yet Yuki bore it out and put Gordeau in a heel hook and forced him to submit to his will. Royce Gracie had been repeatedly bitten when putting his opponents in a choke, yet he didn't let go, against an opponent twice his size.

So what makes you think Bruce Lee would be any different. Yes, he was fast. Yes, he had physical talents. But compared to today's modern athletes, he's probably only mid-level. It's not his fault, the technology and ideas at the time were not up to speed as they are today. I'm sure if he lived in his prime today, he would do exceptionally well and may prove me wrong. The fact remains however - even with dirty tricks, nobody, unless trained in the proper skillset, could defeat a trained 250 pound fighter.

To put it simply, your opinion that seems to suggest that Bruce could beat a 250 pound man, without restrictions, *is* the one that is truly simple and myopic. This is not an attack on your character, just your argument.

[kimtae]

Quantity has a quality of it's own. Someone like Fedor at the 230lb range is too big for Bruce to handle. Fedor is fast and has a substantial reach advantage. He can't kick as well as a Crocop but his murderous punches and dominating grapple would crush Bruce if he came in close enough to try to throat punch or eye gouge. I think Bruce would dominate anyone up to the 180lb range but beyond that it starts to get dicey fast.
There is an ideal size for fighters. Just as with fighting dogs the pit bull seems to be the ideal combination of strength, speed, muscularity, and endurance, there is an ideal combination for human fighters. If you look at all the fighting sports that range seems to be in the 220lb to 285lb depending on the sport and it's particular requirements. I doubt a street fight would change this much.

[DONKEY]

^^also the animal's geometry, the way their skeleton is set up with with their muscles. apes are much stronger than humans even when they weigh less or have smaller muscles. even the strongest humans wouldn't stand a chance against your average chimpanzee.

[ZhuBaJie]

Bruce Lee vs. Galactus.

discuss.

[Vetrean]

Bruce Lee wins because he's Asian and knows karate. Everyone knows that nobody can beat an Asian that knows karate.

[.:hanbox3r]

Bruce Lee wins because he's Asian and knows karate. Everyone knows that nobody can beat an Asian that knows karate.

An Asian who knows kung fu could.

[gregmanders]

Bruce Lee wins because he's Asian and knows karate. Everyone knows that nobody can beat an Asian that knows karate.

Brilliant observation, Vetrean.

[CJF]

I want to see Lee vs. Kid Yamamoto

[thirdeye]

Time and time again this argument has been presented, and time and time again, it has been disproven.

Go online and search for street fight or "style vs style" clips. You will see numerous methods of dirty fighting employed. Eye gouges, fish hooks, ball grabs... the whole book. And yet, the people who employed them are still beaten to a pulp. Watch the early UFCs. True NHB, yet it was always the grapplers, the ones who so-called traditionalists eschewed as being vulnerable to dirty tricks, who would win.

Gerard Gordeau eye gouged Yuki Kondo, causing him to go *blind* in that eye, yet Yuki bore it out and put Gordeau in a heel hook and forced him to submit to his will. Royce Gracie had been repeatedly bitten when putting his opponents in a choke, yet he didn't let go, against an opponent twice his size.

So what makes you think Bruce Lee would be any different. Yes, he was fast. Yes, he had physical talents. But compared to today's modern athletes, he's probably only mid-level. It's not his fault, the technology and ideas at the time were not up to speed as they are today. I'm sure if he lived in his prime today, he would do exceptionally well and may prove me wrong. The fact remains however - even with dirty tricks, nobody, unless trained in the proper skillset, could defeat a trained 250 pound fighter.

To put it simply, your opinion that seems to suggest that Bruce could beat a 250 pound man, without restrictions, *is* the one that is truly simple and myopic. This is not an attack on your character, just your argument.


There is something that you havent taken into account. Bruce was not just the average fighter, the term 'superman' would have probably be invented for him if nobody had thought of it before his time..
For you to compare bruce to the a few modern day mortals failures as a measure of how bruce would fail also, is questionable....
Todays fighters are simply not up to scratch, their movements and phyical dynamics are poor even amongst the best, especially in the footwork department most are lousy and most are just brawlers, their qualities are brute strength, easily contained if you have the knowledge..
I've yet to see anyone matched bruce's abilities even in our present times, bruce was simply too fast for anyone even with the best reaction times to avoid any of his strikes and his power in my assessment can even surpass heavy weights (in all seriousness), is easy to lose faith in bruce cos of his size but fighters who have never encountered speed and power so concentrated will have difficulty adjusting to it, that if they're even capable in dealing with it.....They could take a few shots, but from a person who could hit exactlty where he wanted to hit you, it could game over in seconds, but thats not to say, he will dominate, fights can often swing either way, if bruce was to fight bigger fighters it really could be anyones fight...

[wipe my tushy]

Bruce Lee took traditional martial arts and decided to use what really worked. He always wanted to "flow like water" ie) use the easiest way to dispatch of an opponent, whether it was submissions, groin strikes, take-downs, etc.

You can't compare Bruce with present-day fighters who have benefited from his contributions.

[Heyyu]

Are we talking about a match or a fight-to-the-death scenario? In a fight, Bruce Lee's size might be a disadvantage to some of these bigger, hulking, steroid dudes.

But in a fight-to-the-death scenario where there are no rules (assuming there's no weapons), you just need to hit the pressure points and the person would die. In this case, Bruce Lee might have the advantage since he would be quicker than some of the bigger guys so he could strike quicker. As long as Bruce knew where to hit them of course.

[Pat the Great]

do tell. where are these pressure points that kill people?

also: gordeau eye-gouged yuki nakai, not yuki kondo.

[jaehwan]

do tell. where are these pressure points that kill people?

That's a top secret, man, one which most of us who are privileged to be in the know have sworn to take to the grave. If Heyyu were to tell you, he'd have to kill you. He'd have to kill you by using these top secret pressure points.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/secret_049/81455.jpg