On ducks and Asiaphiles

[Ike]

You know that saying: "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck." I'm interested in knowing just how ducklike something can be without actually being a duck.

Of course, I'm talking about Asiaphiles instead of ducks, and I'm talking about one guy in particular. His duck credentials include: not being Asian (he's black), playing computer games, liking anime, liking sushi, having taken martial arts as a kid, and having previously been interested in Asian women. That raises an alarm in my mind, but I'm not sure how much of it is because of my own paranoia and my own extremely-race-conscious worldview.

A little more about him: I know him because he's the best friend of my boyfriend (this guy was white) who died in a car accident two and a half years ago. Since then he's looked out for me as a "knight" would protect his "queen" - in his words. A little while ago, I realized that he's been the only person who has consistently been there for me over the past couple of years and has treated me much better than any of my recent boyfriends.

He doesn't live anywhere near me, so we play World of Warcraft together and talk online and on the phone. I knew he liked anime, because sometimes he would mention it and quote parts he thought were profound. Today we were talking on the phone about cannibalism (and whether dumb people tasted any different from smart people), when I mentioned eating fish brains. Then he said he liked sushi.

I ended up questioning him on whether he's taken martial arts (he took it as a kid), whether he could use chopsticks (he can), whether he wants to learn Japanese (he does, but maintains that he wants to learn a lot of languages - he's currently fluent in French), and whether he's ever been attracted to Asian women (he has). And then I was so distraught that I hung up on him.

He text messaged me back and told me not to worry so much, to ask questions and not make assumptions, and reassured me that he loves me. I don't think the guy even knows what this is all about.

So my question to the forum is this: Is this guy an Asiaphile, or am I freaking out over nothing? What do I do now?

And please, no responses that say "This wouldn't happen if you weren't a CCB who doesn't date Asian guys". I'm interested in guys who are genuinely nice to me, which doesn't happen that often, regardless of race.

[maogirl]

well, i'm probably going to be misinterpreted and argued with for this, but whatever.

but to be honest, while i recognize the racism and general nastiness inherent in asiaphilia and yellow fever, i don't understand why people put such criteria on interracial relationships.

i mean, for the people who are all like, "interracial relationships are only cool if there isn't any fetishes involved, etc." -- why? what gives people who are in intra-racial relationships the right to place conditions like this? it's like straight people saying that only gays who REALLY love each other and are COMMITTED to each other and will never divorce can get married, while straight people can go ahead and just marry for all sorts of idiotic reasons.

people in intra racial relationships get together for the most fucked up reaasons, and really, how are you going to quantify the presence of asiaphilia or respect in most interracial relationships? is there a questionnaire?

it just seems ridiculous to me. if you do love and are attracted to someone, their race is inevitably a part of that love and attraction. it's bullshit to say it isn't so.

at the same time, people who ARE in interracial relationships should just accept that they are propagating colonial mentality. regardless of how loving you all are, and how much you respect each other, you will represent that being with a gwei is superior to being with an asian to other people. sorry, kids, but that's how the world sees you. just accept it and move on with your lives.

[silkie]

So my question to the forum is this: Is this guy an Asiaphile, or am I freaking out over nothing? What do I do now?


I assume your guy falls in the gray category, and that is why you are posing this question to us. Given the more innocent signs you've listed, it is pretty hard for us to give you a straight answer. You pretty much have to look to your gut feeling to answer your question.

But just a warning: your gut feeling will be affected by your racialized world view. Once you crossed that line, your choice in your who you date will to some degree become a politicized decision.

I know I am repeating some of your points, but really, I think you already know the answer. Do what makes you happy and don't worry so much about who got what fetishes. I think MG has hit a good point in that people will have a set view about your relationship no matter how you rationalize it for yourself, so learn to live with whatever decision you make.

[little mixed girl]

if you're into this guy, or if he's a good friend, why try and make him out to be someone with a fetish?

i don't think you can tie martial arts or learning japanese to having a fetish.

and i'd assume that you'd know if he did have one because he would probably be saying things like "asian girls are so much better than other girls because they cook and clean for their man and don't talk back with all that fem-nazi bull."

warcraft sounds more geek than anything. but then again, i've never played it.

(when you wrote "ducks" all i could think of was aflac)

[atlasien]

I'm developing a theory that there are two kinds of asiaphiles/ducks: "dick" asiaphiles and "dork" asiaphiles. That guy definitely doesn't sound like the dick version, which is the worst kind.

I don't think having sexual fetishes or preferences that involve race is necessarily wrong. More than anything else, it's how the person displays it in social situations. If they believe their preference gives them special entitlement. For example, I like tall, thin, guys, but that doesn't mean they have a special obligation to have sex with me. Yet that is the attitude of "dick" Asiaphiles when it comes to Asian women.

Maybe you could have an honest talk with him about some of the racial issues you've been thinking about. Maybe he has some of his own stuff he wants to get off his chest.

[aelward]

quack quack...

[angi]

I think the better question is, has he been a good friend to you?

If he has, then just lay your cards on the table and ask him. Maybe he just likes anime and is a dork. Just because someone likes anime or Asian stuff and would date interracially doesn't automatically mean they are fetishizing Asians. If it really has been a good friend to you, then you kind of owe it to him to give him the benefit of the doubt and talk to him about it.

JMO

[Ike]

i mean, for the people who are all like, "interracial relationships are only cool if there isn't any fetishes involved, etc." -- why? what gives people who are in intra-racial relationships the right to place conditions like this?
Wow... that's a really good response. I guess it's just that I personally don't want to be fetishized in a relationship.

regardless of how loving you all are, and how much you respect each other, you will represent that being with a gwei is superior to being with an asian to other people. sorry, kids, but that's how the world sees you.
I'm actually kind of scared just thinking about people's reactions to seeing us together. We live kind of far apart, so we're not going to be walking down a street together anytime soon -- but a black guy and an Asian girl? EVERYONE is gonna hate.

But just a warning: your gut feeling will be affected by your racialized world view. Once you crossed that line, your choice in your who you date will to some degree become a politicized decision.
My gut feeling tells me I'm blowing this out of proportion. It wasn't like we met and he said "Oh, you're Asian. I like anime and sushi, and it would be cool to learn Japanese. I love Asian girls!!" I've only gradually found out through conversations that were mostly about something else. It's kind of annoying to constantly see things through a racialized world view though. Sometimes I wish I had taken the blue pill.

and i'd assume that you'd know if he did have one because he would probably be saying things like "asian girls are so much better than other girls because they cook and clean for their man and don't talk back with all that fem-nazi bull."
He's certainly never said that. He's one of those guys that absolutely does NOT bring up race and changes the subject when I bring it up. Like yesterday I was ranting about something having to do with Sean Bell... and this guy (who used to live in NY) doesn't even know who Sean Bell is!!! I don't even know how to start telling him that seeing things racially is an important part of my worldview.

Okay, I'm like halfway through this post and he just signed on AIM... I guess I'll talk to him. I'll tell you guys how it goes.

[Ike]

He surprised me by knowing what an Asian fetish is, because most guys from South Carolina probably wouldn't. He says he doesn't have one. I trust him, because if I didn't, I wouldn't even be bothering with him.

Thanks for all the advice, sorry about taking silly personal problems onto the forum, and I'm really REALLY sorry that we'll probably be seeing more mail-order bride ads for a while.

[Tyger Durden]

The sequence of events in the timeline of your relationship with this person is troubling to me. You say you've known him for two-and-a-half years, then you ask him a lot of culture/ethnic-related questions only recently, and then he reassures you that "he loves you"? Seems a little fast and confusing, maybe too much like dropping a bombshell on someone, for both of you.

maybe it's like a job interview and he's saying "yes" to any of your questions to appeal to you?

since you've waited two-and-a-half years to discuss culture/ethnicity with him, i say just stay friends and see what happens next. If all his female friends suddenly end up being Asian, then that might be a sign.

So just be friends until the dust settles. If race/culture/ethnicity keeps popping up between you, then maybe it wasn't meant to be.

[silkie]

I'm actually kind of scared just thinking about people's reactions to seeing us together. We live kind of far apart, so we're not going to be walking down a street together anytime soon -- but a black guy and an Asian girl? EVERYONE is gonna hate.


As much as it is admirable for you to acknowledge how the message you send might affect the community around you, I wouldn't suggest caring too much about what other people think of you, whether it involves race or something else. I am speaking from a selfish perspective, but it will drive you nuts to live your life according to how people MIGHT perceive your relationship.

I have stated this in previous instances, but by re-elaborating this it might help you come to terms with your situation: IR's might indirectly affect the Asian community, but ultimately it is YOUR business, and it is not anyone's place to dictate who you should or should not date. Of course, on a gut level it is annoying when I see people compromising themsleves in a blatantly fetishized relationship (which I am NOT accusing you of), but if it makes the people involved happy, who am I to nudge into their life?

However, I also believe that it is one thing to be in an interracial relationship, it is completely something else if that person verbally attributes their choice based on biases against someone else (ie: making excuses about the inadequacy of people in their own race). In that case, I feel it is justified to swat that damn fly by pointing out how moronic they sound.

[Ike]

The sequence of events in the timeline of your relationship with this person is troubling to me. You say you've known him for two-and-a-half years, then you ask him a lot of culture/ethnic-related questions only recently, and then he reassures you that "he loves you"? Seems a little fast and confusing, maybe too much like dropping a bombshell on someone, for both of you.

I should probably have clarified that he tells me that every time I'm going through problems -- this is just the first time the problem has been about him.

I don't think he necessarily has anything to gain from answering questions "correctly" because it's not like I'm going to sleep with him. We don't even live in the same state.

I think waiting is a good option though. I should rush into things less.

[minbo]

I don't know if the guy is a 'phile, but I do know that the entire deal stinks. If any of my close friends told me this about a friend of theirs, irregardless of the "race" of either party, I'd tell them to run screaming from the guy. Everyone has issues and baggage. Not all issues and baggage are bad, and different people can deal with different amounts and types of baggage. I think that 'philes, are very obvious displays that a person has issues, and baggage of a bad kind which they are unable to deal with.

Irregardless of if this guy is a 'phile, other things you presented indicate to me that he likely has issues and baggage of a bad nature that he is unable to deal with.

'phile and race neutral:
1) Don't date your ex's friends or your friends ex's. Being that your ex is dead, that does make things not quite as bad but...
2) If you discover love someone, you tell them right away. You do not stalk somenoe for 2.5 years pretending they are your "queen" and you are their "knight'.
3) When you do finally tell someone you love them, you don't do it by txt message, and not in frantic reaction that they are disturbed by something about you.

And not baggage related, but long distance romances suck ass. Not to badmouth them, but as I said, they suck major ass, and not in a headonistic and to some pleasurable scatplay fashion.

[Tyger Durden]

...We don't even live in the same state.

I think waiting is a good option though. I should rush into things less.

you two leave in different States? Well, that makes things easier to remain on the 'let's be friends' level.

yeah, waiting won't hurt at all, till you find out more about him and vice-versa.

about IR: over the years, I've overheard the conversations of a few IR couples where the racial/cultural differences of the two partners was actually the subject of playful jokes and friendly banter between the two partners. I'm guessing race/culture/ethnicity had become or been reduced to an 'inside joke' to these partners and laughter was the best medicine to immunize themselves and deal with a world that was looking at them funny.

[minbo]

Just saw your reply to Tyger, but unless he is saying that he loves you in what you both understand is a platonic "fraternal' fashion, I think that it's weird to be telling someone you love them every time they are mentally distressed and dealing with problems.

[atlasien]

If he's totally aversive to the subject of race, as a black person that's kind of odd.

It would be one thing if he just flat out said, "I don't think a lot about race because of XYZ..." or "I don't like to talk about it because of XYZ..."

But if he acts nervous and changes the subject every time, he probably has some insecurities about it; maybe he is ready to address them and maybe he isn't.

[Tyger Durden]

If he's totally aversive to the subject of race, as a black person that's kind of odd...

In South Carolina USA, isn't that a good thing? Don't they still fly the Confederate Flag down there?

I think we have to take in account his Environment and it's affect on his stance and reaction to race/ethnicity/culture.

His potential 'aversion to race' could be an attempt to avoid a trauma and/or negative experiences as a Black male living in the South.

[Ike]

Hey um...

Regardless of any sort of issues he might have (or issues that I probably do have)... we're talking about the only person outside of my family who has consistently been there for me for the past two and a half years.

He's not a stalker, he's a good guy and a good friend, and apparently I somehow didn't manage to convey that.

[atlasien]

Here's me going out on a limb with ever more tenuous armchair psychology... I don't know South Carolina but I do know Georgia.

I think it totally depends on rural vs. urban and also economic class.

The few rural black Southerners I know have a pretty straightforward, matter-of-fact view of race. Some white people are OK, especially if they go to the same church, otherwise white people (and non-blacks and even other blacks from big cities) probably shouldn't be trusted.

In cities there are lots of varying views about race, but it's not a taboo subject like it is with most white people.

But I could see a black person growing up surrounded by white people (e.g. in a private school or very white neighborhood) being very nervous talking about race, and in general just as traumatized as an Asian in a similar environment.

[minbo]

I understand that he may have been there for you the past few years when nobody else has been. I understand that he is your good friend.

He was not a good enough friend such that you got heebies that he might be a 'phile.
He was not so good a friend such that you did not know about his past romantic interests, types of food he likes to eat etc.

I still think it is very odd for a platonic friend to refer to a relationship with someone as a knight to a queen and tell that person that he loves them whenever they are dealing with a problem.

It may be all well and good, after all we have not heard the entire story. Apparently you have thought about being more than friends with him. From what I hear, I would be willing to put money that he has thought about being more than friends with you.

If you really know him, you should not need to ask us our opinions if he is a potential 'phile.
If you really like him, as friends or more, then you should be able to accept him for who he is, flaws and all.

You need to work out for yourself what you think of him. Do you know enough about him. Is he a friend or is he something more. Can you accept him flaws and all. Then you need to clear the air with him and find out what he feels and wants from you. If what you feel and want and what he feels and wants are not in alignment, if you both are honest with each other and truly care for each other (and based upon a 2.5 year history I would think that would be the case), it usually is not that hard to work things out. If what you want and feel are in alignment with what he wants and feels, then I don't see a problem.

[vsoy]

He was not a good enough friend such that you got heebies that he might be a 'phile.
In Ike's defense, she only recently last summer became more racially aware. She might have seen someone with asiaphilic vibes as a nice person rather than some weird creep. When I think back to some of the people I met before being more educated about racial issues, I realize they were closet asiaphiles and I shudder because I had mis-interpreted their interest as friendliness.

It sounds like this guy has been holding the torch for you a long time. Any guy has plenty to gain by "answering correctly" even if you're in different states. Hell, if salmon are willing to swim upstream for hundreds of miles to spawn, surely a knight is willing to drive a couple of hours for m'lady on a road trip booty call?

I would proceed with great caution. You've mentioned that you're not happy with your appearance and you don't get much attention from guys. We all want to feel loved and cared for and it's a lonely world out there. Asiaphiles use this to their advantage.

Seeing how you see everything hyper-racialized now, you'll be talking about race a lot, so if he's uncomfortable, it might be a problem. But seeing how he said to ask questions and not make assumptions, you should take him up on the offer. He does sound like a real friend but whether or not you take it to the next level is up to you and your comfort level.

[Dirac]

When all is said and done, however, you know him and we don't. Take in all the opinions then go with your gut instinct. Good luck :-)

[Ike]

I would proceed with great caution. You've mentioned that you're not happy with your appearance and you don't get much attention from guys. We all want to feel loved and cared for and it's a lonely world out there. Asiaphiles use this to their advantage.
That is a scary paragraph. Mostly because it makes me wonder whether Asiaphilia is so bad. Asiaphiles and CCBs just want love too... I would be pretty damn hypocritical to fault them for that.

Good luck :-)
Thanks. I'll need it. =)

[cattygurl]

When it comes down to it, it's often unhealthy to be obsessive about purity. If you care about the environment, social issues, whatever- just existing, using the internet, etc is built on the back of some pretty terrible shit.

You have to cut your losses and where you cut them is your business- but cut them after careful consideration of a position you can live with and not regret. That's something nobody else can know, much less decide.

As a generalization or not- generally, I'm slightly wary of people that have a "knight" syndrome, because in its worst form, it can be a dominance/controlling factor. Also, it's one thing to know a friend from afar, and a whole different ballgame to be involved with a guy. I have many great male friends that, in a relationship, we would downright kill each other. Human dynamics that work in a certain aspect may not work well with change (i.e. friendship to relationship, for example). A real friend will- bottom line- respect your boundaries. It seems thing guy is a good friend from what you wrote- but a good friend that is acting predominantly for their interest, even when it benefits you, is no friend. Just keep your mind clear and open. Either way, good luck.

Also, consider if you're even interested in a relationship. The mre baggage you have, the harder it's going to be. You just may want to focus on your own growth at the moment- you're in your early 20's, if i remember correctly. If I have one regret, I wish I would have focused on my own growth a lot more in my 20's. Relationships can and often do take time away from yourself.

[little mixed girl]

well in the end, regardless of what anyone on this site says the decision is up to you.

i've turned away guys because i knew what types of comments i might possibly hear from others, and it can make for a very narrow dating pool.

also, you could probably find asiaphile signs in every person you interact with. that doesn't mean they are though.

you can view him as a friend, you can talk with him about how you feel about racial dynamics, etc.

[blockthebox]

You just may want to focus on your own growth at the moment- you're in your early 20's, if i remember correctly. If I have one regret, I wish I would have focused on my own growth a lot more in my 20's.

Really? Shit, I wish I'd had more raunchy and meaningless sex in my 20s. Then maybe I'd have some wonderful memories now to carry me into my ajuma years.

[cattygurl]

'tis easier to have raunchier, meaningless sex when you're single, most of the time.

[jaehwan]

I agree wholeheartedly with Maogirl on this one.

Why bother even asking this question? If you're attracted to him, his race is definitely a part of the attraction. Likewise, he is attracted to you because you are Asian. This is the way it is with all people. No one has the right to put a value judgement on attraction. Nor does anyone have the right to say that you can love someone for this or that reason, but not another reason; love and attraction simply are what they are, and race plays a big role. Regardless of how you slice and dice it, race is a major factor in both love and attraction.

Now are you concerned because your interracial relationship will send a certain message to society that non-Asian is better than Asian? I agree with MG again--it will send that message to society. But what are you going to do? Date someone that you aren't attracted to, just so that you can send society a different message?

In the end, it makes little sense to worry about this or stress over it because it's just the way things are. I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but the best thing to do is to just accept it and move on.

[LowFrequency]

I don't really see what you are so worried about. As long as he isn't some weird stalker or rapist, you're fine.

As for the his knight to your queen comment, I think we have to keep in mind that this guy is a warcraft freak. I think we can cut him some slack for that. :)

[Candide]

The easiest way to figure this out is to forget about yourself for a moment and observe how he treats other Asians you know, especially his attitude towards your AM friends or brothers (if you have brothers). Asiaphiles always blow their own cover when dealing with AMs.

[minbo]

If both people go into a relationship with their eyes open, get what they consider fair value for what they put into the relationship and are happy with what they put into and get out of the relationship (the two statements are not redundant), then any relationship can work out for the people directly involved. 'phile or not. The issue for the people involved is that often they don't realize what they are putting into the relationship and improperly value what they are getting out of the relationship. For people not involved in a 'phile relationship, it usually does not work out, beacuse the 'phile often uses the relationship as license to make assumptions or take liberties when interacting with other people of similar ethnic or cultural background. In essence taking more from those interactions than the other people may be willing to grant.

Don't get me wrong about *knowing* him.

My statement about really knowing him was not really derision or dismissing that you do not *really* know him. I had intended it more to push you to re-think the assumption that you do know him based upon the fact that you have had some potentially surprising insight into him. Hopefully you will realize that these are simply details about an aspect of him that you knew about all along, perhaps not consciously. If you realize that it is a total surprise, then the reality is that you don't really know him as well as you may have thought.

Don't get me wrong about being friends with him or going out with him.

My statement about him being a good friend was not that he is not and you should ditch him. Actually I think I was pretty clear on that in the end. If he really is your good friend, then if is is a 'phile or not is immaterial. It does not change who he is, or how he has been to you the past few years. You should be able to accept him for what he is, good and bad. If it does bother you enough to ditch him, then he wasn't that good a friend.

[Ike]

Really? Shit, I wish I'd had more raunchy and meaningless sex in my 20s. Then maybe I'd have some wonderful memories now to carry me into my ajuma years.
I'm the kind of person who just doesn't do that (I'm much more of an emotional connection-type person), much as I sometimes wish I could. Relationships for me are generally a lot of talking about nothing and a lot of cuddling. Being single is a lot of getting drunk with my single friends because it's sometimes awkward to be around a bunch of "couples".

Why bother even asking this question? If you're attracted to him, his race is definitely a part of the attraction. Likewise, he is attracted to you because you are Asian.
In our case, race has been de-emphasized because we don't see each other in person. I've only seen him once and would never be able to pick him out of a crowd. As far as being attracted to his race goes, that's pretty much at the bottom of the list, near where physical attraction is. A list where World of Warcraft is probably in the top 5. :)

Now are you concerned because your interracial relationship will send a certain message to society that non-Asian is better than Asian? I agree with MG again--it will send that message to society. But what are you going to do? Date someone that you aren't attracted to, just so that you can send society a different message?
I'm not too concerned about that yet at this point because this would be strictly long-distance. And I don't usually have a problem being attracted to people... it's more that very few people are attracted to me.

As for the his knight to your queen comment, I think we have to keep in mind that this guy is a warcraft freak. I think we can cut him some slack for that. :)
I didn't read as much into the knight/queen thing as mostly everyone else on the forum has. He says he set it up as a barrier between us to allow friendship without romantic attachments. I think it's a pretty normal boundary to set - he just has a weirder way of describing it.

The easiest way to figure this out is to forget about yourself for a moment and observe how he treats other Asians you know, especially his attitude towards your AM friends or brothers (if you have brothers). Asiaphiles always blow their own cover when dealing with AMs.
While I wholly agree with you, that's not really possible because we can't see each other in person.

Hopefully you will realize that these are simply details about an aspect of him that you knew about all along, perhaps not consciously.
Taking a step back, I think it is possible for someone to like things of Asian origin and not stereotype people of Asian descent, which is really the important part anyway. After all, I knew he liked anime, it just didn't bother me because he wasn't one of those types who constantly tell me that I should watch some. As for sushi... I'm just glad he actually eats because he doesn't care for steak or ice cream, which are my two main food groups. I realized that those two things alone aren't really that incriminating.

Thanks for all the responses again, it's really helped pin down some things I needed to talk about with him. I've had some pretty nice conversations with him. Nothing earth-shattering has come out of them - I think I've heard it all before and just forgot. I guess I'll see where things go from here.

[sab]

Could someone direct me to a thread explaining why being an asiaphile is considered a negative thing. Not someone with an asian fetish, I get that. thanks in advance.

[atlasien]

I don't mean to take over this thread but I have to respond to that.

Asiaphilia is not just a negative thing. It's pure evil. I have always hated it from when I was very young, and recently I'm thinking that it contributes to the high suicide rate for young Asian-American women.

This article has a good explanation.
http://www.ocweekly.com/news/news/yellow-fever/26126/

The writer is honest about how asiaphilia has affected her own self-esteem.

Some Asiaphiles are worse than others. The ones who are the worst believe that they are entitled to have sex with Asian women because of their special appreciation for Asian culture. "Why can't you take a compliment" is their catchphrase. The next worse type make Asian-Americans feel like crap through their arrogant appropriation of Asian culture. "Why don't you speak your own language better/appreciate your own culture better" is their catchphrase.

And keep in mind, I'm saying all of this as someone who is married to a white man. But I refuse to put up with asiaphilia for even one second and have never dated an asiaphile of any race.

Sab, if you are serious about being here to learn for your daughters, then take Asiaphilia very, very seriously.

[kwak76]

Asiaphiles and potato chasers deserve each other.


let them be happy in thier own sick way.

[sab]

In my mind I had always separated Asian Fetish and Asiaphiles into two separate groups where Asiaphiles were people that were interested in Asian culture/history/language while an Asian Fetish was on the extreme negative side. I appreciate the clarification on this subject.

What do you call someone that is just interested in the culture of a country such as Kuroyama in Japan? For myself I find the history of the Philippines extremley interesting along with Russian history, wasn't extremely intrigued with Korean or Japanese history/culture.

Apoligize for side-tracking the thread.

Cheers

[atlasien]

Having an interest in another culture is just having an interest in another culture. In some contexts it turns into Asiaphilia or appropriation, in other contexts it doesn't.

The main thing is not the purity of the heart, or the first motivation. It's how the learner uses their knowledge to affect other people.

Do they believe their knowledge makes them really special?
Do they believe their knowledge makes them better, higher, nobler than other people?
More attractive to women?
More deserving?
Do they believe they now have a special right to that culture that people born into that culture don't have?
Do they believe they can lay claim to all the good things about the culture without having suffered through any of the bad?

Most learners are motivated by competition... I'm sure there are theoretical physicists that get into stupid penis-measuring contests with other theoretical physicists. But the Asiaphile takes that a step beyond and screws with Asian-Americans by claiming to know their culture better than they do. They reinforce that Asian-Americans are different from white people, then say that they're not even good at being different. Psycho-cultural annihilation.

I am very interested in Mexican culture and have spent time there, studied the language and culture and literature extensively. But I'm also hyper-aware I need to respect Mexicans and Mexican-Americans and not be a cultural appropriater. I'm also aware that a lot of Mexican-Americans speak terrible Spanish, and if they go back to Mexico other Mexicans often treat them with a lot of disdain for that. It's the way of the world... sometimes they just have to take it. Just the way I'm only slightly bitter about other Japanese looking down on me for not speaking Japanese. But, despite my best efforts I've been indirectly affected by Asiaphilia... I am so nervous about being seen as a cultural appropriater that I don't speak Spanish in America with people who would 99.99% welcome being spoken to in Spanish, and as a consequence I am losing the spoken language.

I have encountered some white academics specializing in Asian studies that I've learned a lot from. I don't resent them for knowing a gazillion times more than I do. But I've met other ones I could see were Asiaphiles. Asiaphiles can range from sub-moron to super-genius, but they're always distinguished by their overwhelming arrogance and disrespectfulness.

[Le Sheng Liu]

Ike, from the information you provided in the original post, it sounds like you're paranoid. give him a chance.

[Vetrean]

Juvenile as it may sound, it's a pity there's no save button to reload your life if something goes wrong.

Then again, who the hell has the foresight to save at all the opportune moments and remember not to overwrite?

I don't know much about this kinda stuff, but I'd say just wait for a while, see if he's a 'phile or not. Maybe he'll slip up or something, and if you're still comfortable with him, well, why not give him a chance? Any relationship you enter with him you enter knowing full well that he may or may not be a 'phile. Maybe that'll help. Maybe it won't.

Best thing I can really say is, like Le Sheng Liu said, give him a chance.

[Ike]

Well, for some perspective on the issue, I think I met my first real Asiaphile yesterday!

In one of my classes we're designing for "users", and our our usergroup is tattoo artists, so I gave my friend (different friend) a ride to his tattoo appointment and hung out a bit to watch him get inked and take some notes. Well, the artist was a white guy in maybe his late 30's, and his ex-wife was Asian (he still had pictures of her up all over the place - I think they were in the process of getting divorced).

Pretty early on into the conversation, he asked me if I was Taiwanese, and I was thinking "Oh hell no, you are NOT starting this..." but he did. He talked about pressure from Asian American parents, Taiwanese politics, even called me a "Taiwanese chick" at one point and tried to speak to me in Taiwanese, all the while comparing me to his ex-wife.

I would have left earlier, but my group really needed the notes on the tattooing process, since no other artists had let us watch them work (since we also needed the permission of the customer). It was just so exasperating that EVERYTHING the guy said to me had to do with Asia or Taiwan or being Asian or his ex-wife.

I think I was probably over-reacting with my friend's possible Asiaphile situation. Liking anime and sushi is fairly harmless in comparison.

Oh, and apparently after I left the tattoo shop, the guy said to my friend who was getting the tattoo, "She's cute, are you hitting that?" and went on to say I had a nice personality. A nice personality!! All I did was change the topic every time he mentioned Asia and glare at him!

[Tyger Durden]

Having an interest in another culture is just having an interest in another culture. In some contexts it turns into Asiaphilia or appropriation, in other contexts it doesn't.

The main thing is not the purity of the heart, or the first motivation. It's how the learner uses their knowledge to affect other people...


Atlasien: pretty insightful stuff on Asianphilia above (edited for brevity), but what are your thoughts/views on Asian Fetish/fetishism/fetishists?

do you think it's Asianphilia taken to an extreme? Can it be Asianphilia on a physical or sexual level?

your definition of Asianphilia (which is very enlightening) implies an "attitude" or character flaw or something mental. Do you think Asian Fetish is the physical expression of Asianphilia...or Asianphilia when applied to the material world (i.e. clothes, cars, women, anything physical)?

sorry if that sounds confusing. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Maybe you can make sense out of what i'm trying to ask. :) Thanks.

[Vetrean]

A nice personality!! All I did was change the topic every time he mentioned Asia and glare at him!

I'm sure he could tell that you were nice underneath all the 'ARGHASIAPHILEARGH.'

EDIT: Muargh, lack of strikethrough makes this forum not as fun. :\

Also, liking anime and sushi IS absolutely harmless. On a related note, didn't 4Kids issue a statement sometime that said something along the lines of, 'by the time we're through with it, they don't even know it's from Japan anymore?'

EDIT2: @anime/sushi thing: It's harmless if the d00d doesn't bring it up as soon as he sees you're Asian.

[Ike]

What is 4Kids?

[Vetrean]

Meh, mighta gotten the name mixed up, but it's that entertainment group that localized One Piece.

[atlasien]

what are your thoughts/views on Asian Fetish/fetishism/fetishists?

do you think it's Asianphilia taken to an extreme? Can it be Asianphilia on a physical or sexual level?


Thinking about your question, in my opinion I don't think it's useful to distinguish between Asiaphilia and Asian Fetish. The problem with fetishization is that it brings in these huge, complicated, and highly conflicting theories about human sexual development.

So let's say someone has a fetish about handcuffs. Someone else has a fetish about big breasts. Another person has a fetish about tall guys. Some of these are socially acceptable, and some of them aren't. And which ones are socially acceptable depend a lot on upbringing, which culture the person is from, that culture's relationship with other cultures, and so on.

Ethically, I don't think it's any of my business to judge negatively if a person has an Asian fetish. I mean, lots of Asians have Asian fetishes. Where it crosses the line is when the Asiaphile/fetishizer thinks they're special because of their fetish and therefore they're entitled to 1) special access to Asian culture 2) special access to Asian booty. So I believe the sense of entitlement and the lack of respect is the mental failing, not the sexual desire.

However, there's also a high correlation between having an Asian fetish and acting like an asshole, especially among certain sectors of American society, so that kind of "taints the pool".

[Tyger Durden]

...So I believe the sense of entitlement and the lack of respect is the mental failing, not the sexual desire.

However, there's also a high correlation between having an Asian fetish and acting like an asshole, especially among certain sectors of American society, so that kind of "taints the pool".

thanks for giving your perspective. Good points and after looking at the subject matter that way, I have to agree. Your point about having a "sense of entitlement and the lack of respect is the mental failing, not the sexual desire" really is enlightening and insightful.

BTW: Your answers are mostly along the lines of "hmmm, never thought about it that way before, it makes sense when you think about it" and that's a compliment. Thanks for deciphering and replying to my somewhat esoteric questions above. Appreciate it...;)

[Kuroyama]

OK... a Black guy... likes sushi, martial arts, anime, and speaks Japanese. Acknowledges that Asian women can be beautiful... so that makes him a person to avoid?

So then, a Japanese guy... likes bread, guns, Michael Bay films, and speaks English. Acknowledges that Black women can be beautiful... that makes HIM a person to avoid??? It perfectly describes one of the Japanese "heart throbs" in my office (I live and work in Japan) I KNOW at least 10 Japanese girls would cheerfully fight it out just to sleep with.

So its a double standard. Which applied anywhere else would be universally assailed as being morally wrong...yes?

For those who aren't familiar with me:
I'm Black. I speak fluent Japanese. (I suck at Spanish, French, German, and Russian). I have a Japanese wife. I live in Japan. I work for a Japanese company. Yet, I study Chinese martial arts (Chen style taijiquan and xingyiquan... from which Ive learned things about Japanese culture and history, not all of which is pleasant).

If you should want to know why I made those choices, Ill be happy to share it with you. Just remember that they dont define me. I'm also a surfer (long and shortboard), a golfer, Ive acted in commercials in the US and on TV here in Japan. I enjoy guns, motorcycles, and I fiend for electronic gadgets. Long before I became a systems engineer I was hired by Dark Horse comics as an illustrator.

If you're attracted to someone for how they look, enjoy it. EMBRACE it. Picking a partner is hard enough in this life. IMO to restrict yourself solely to members of a given racial group is silly. Having said that, once you cross racial lines that will bring baggage. The important question is, are you and s/he willing to carry that responsibility? There is still "the outside world" which must be dealt with. You need to decide if you want to deal with that, and if yes, HOW you will deal with it.

You pick who's right for you. Not anyone else. Just be responsible about it, and it all works out.

[Ike]

OK... a Black guy... likes sushi, martial arts, anime, and speaks Japanese. Acknowledges that Asian women can be beautiful... so that makes him a person to avoid?

I avoid you like the plague, Kuroyama. =P

In all seriousness, I was just blowing stuff out of proportion, like I usually do. *mutters something about molehills* (I've never actually seen a molehill... maybe it's because I think they're all mountains.)

But we're really young and go to college in different states so the opinion of "the outside world" won't matter for at least 2 more years. 3, if I fail this semester. o.O

[poisenedrice]

I'm actually kind of scared just thinking about people's reactions to seeing us together. We live kind of far apart, so we're not going to be walking down a street together anytime soon -- but a black guy and an Asian girl? EVERYONE is gonna hate.

Why are you so worried about what other people think? If you want to date the brutha then date the brutha kid. You won't be the first Asian girl to date out, and you certainly won't be the last. It's your right and it's that simple. Don't forget though, assholes like me also have the right to laugh and hate as well, but them's the breaks.

Go ahead, we know you want the dahkness... NOW!