Andre Boisclair And "Slanting Eyes"

[KHANartist]

Quebec is in the middle of an election campaign and Andre Boisclair, the openly gay leader of the PQ(Parti Quebecois) used the descriptive words "slanting eyes" about students from the Far East. Is this description offensive to you and why? How would you like your eyes to be described? I`m of Pakistani origin and I`m not offended if someone referred to my eyes as "round".

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/quebecvotes2007/03/15/qc-yeuxbrides20070315.html

[Scowl]

I'm not offended, although the guy sounds like an asshole to me.

[theme]

The link doesn't work but it seems like a breach of etiquette to refer to someone's physical features, especially something that has been used as a racial taunt, when describing us Asians.

Perhaps a more comparative situation to Pakistanis is if he used 'dark skin' or 'smelly odour' to describe pakistanis. Either way I don't see how it's ever appropriate outside of an science class, to talk about that stuff.

[Vetrean]

I'd be offended, because it's just the perpetuation of a stereotype in a society that's supposedly 'equal.'

Incidentally, the eyes of Asians aren't even really slanted.

[KHANartist]

Perhaps a more comparative situation to Pakistanis is if he used 'dark skin' or 'smelly odour' to describe pakistanis. Either way I don't see how it's ever appropriate outside of an science class, to talk about that stuff.

I wouldn`t be offended by "dark skin", but I would be by "smelly odour" as there`s little question that is offensive.

I agree with scowl though, Boisclair is a wanker and he`ll probably lose the election.

[Scowl]

See if this one works any better.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/quebecvotes2007/story/2007/03/15/qc-yeuxbrides20070315.html

Boisclair made the comments in French while speaking to a crowd of students in Trois-Rivières on Wednesday, a speech in which he drew on his experience at Harvard University to talk about global competition from Asian countries such as India and China.

The PQ leader made the faux pas when talking about the mass migration of young people from the two rising industrial giants to North American universities.

"The reality is these countries are not just working to create jobs in sweatshops," he said. "When I was in Boston, where I spent a year, I was surprised to see that on campus, about one-third of the students doing their bachelor degrees had les yeux bridés (slanting eyes)."

Boisclair stood his ground Thursday, and said he will not withdraw the comment, which he said is an acceptable expression in French.


I think this is a pretty racist/xenophobic comment, but it has nothing to do with the "slanting eyes" remark and everything to do with being a shithead.

[ChÈ]

Yes, it's racist, regardless of what the French choose to say to justify or dismiss it.

Also, the way in which it was used in this context was racist too because it was being used to isolate Asians as the Other by emphasising a distinguishing physical trait by exaggeration and resort to stereotypes (not all East Asians have 'slanty' or slitty eyes).

If the Quebecois cannot recognise the racism/xenophobia inherent in those words then it means that they are backward in terms of racial sensitivity.

On that point, I'm sure that most French people would not take too kindly to being stereotyped as having garlicky breath or having habitually poor physical hygiene (both of which are common Anglophone stereotypes of the French).

[KHANartist]

If the Quebecois cannot recognise the racism/xenophobia inherent in those words then it means that they are backward in terms of racial sensitivity.

On that point, I'm sure that most French people would not take too kindly to being stereotyped as having garlicky breath or having habitually poor physical hygiene (both of which are common Anglophone stereotypes of the French).

Well just about the entire world is backwards in terms of "racial sensitivity" compared to the US. I doubt under the context it was used the people of the Far East would`ve been offended. No, as usual it`s North Americans who took offense. Could he have chosen a better way to word it under those circumstances? Probably, but is he a racist under those circumstances? NO!!

[ChÈ]

Well just about the entire world is backwards in terms of "racial sensitivity" compared to the US.

That's debatable. When I think of 'racial sensitivity', the US is not the first place that springs to mind.


No, as usual it`s North Americans who took offense.

Well, it just so happens that the offending remarks were uttered in a North American context so it's hardly a coincidence that "as usual it`s North Americans who took offense"... hmmm, the more I dwell 'pon it, the more discernible a connection becomes.


Could he have chosen a better way to word it under those circumstances? Probably, but is he a racist under those circumstances? NO!!

He was singling out Asians in order to tap into a vein of populist xenophobia among the native Quebecois -- his references to stereotypical Asian facial features were designed to demonise Asians in general as Outsiders. He was definitely racist under those circumstances, whether you or he choose to acknowledge it or not.

...

[ChÈ]

but I would be by "smelly odour" as there`s little question that is offensive.

^ And precisely why should that be considered offensive?

[KHANartist]

That's debatable. When I think of 'racial sensitivity', the US is not the first place that springs to mind.
...


Well it is for me at least in the hyper-pc form. This wouldn`t even have made the news in the vast majority of the world.

[silkie]

I am not seriously offended by the comment itself, but by the lack of respect after the comment is made.

I don't get it: whenever a media figure tread into sensitive territory and is called out on his/her mistakes, at least apologize. In cases where there is an explanation (even the lame one that Boisclair provided), I think it is perfectly acceptable if the offender SINCERELY admits their fuck-up, and give their explanation. I cannot stand it when they, either with or without an explanation, steadfastly refused to acknowledge their wrong doing, or worse, try to dictate the terms of what we should or should not be offended by.
If a good amount of people are collectively offended by it, chances are there is a good reason.

[KHANartist]

I am not seriously offended by the comment itself, but by the lack of respect after the comment is made.

I don't get it: whenever a media figure tread into sensitive territory and is called out on his/her mistakes, at least apologize. In cases where there is an explanation (even the lame one that Boisclair provided), I think it is perfectly acceptable if the offender SINCERELY admits their fuck-up, and give their explanation. I cannot stand it when they, either with or without an explanation, steadfastly refused to acknowledge their wrong doing, or worse, try to dictate the terms of what we should or should not be offended by.
If a good amount of people are collectively offended by it, chances are there is a good reason.

Yes, I would agree. I didn`t find the context on which he said it offensive. However, if people were offended by it and he he had simply said no offense was ever intended than that would`ve been the end of it.

[ChÈ]

This wouldn`t even have made the news in the vast majority of the world.

You keep returning to this point for no apparent reason.

i.) It's irrelevant;

ii.) The incident occurred in Quebec Province, Dominion of Canada, not in the United States of America.

[ChÈ]

Yes, I would agree. I didn`t find the context on which he said it offensive.

Ok then, starting from the basics...

It is racist and offensive when a non-Asian, particularly a Westerner, categorizes and denigrates Asians by drawing derogatory reference to physical features that do not conform to Western norms.

I will even furnish you with an appropriate analogy: it is generally impolite and lacking in courtesy to make wisecracks about the "smelly" body odour given off by some South Asian people. This is unkind and offensive to South Asian people because they are being judged (and condemned) according to Other People's norms or standards. South Asian people don't 'smell' to other South Asians, do they?

So to summarise, South Asian body odour is normal, just as Asian eyes are normal. However, when Asians and South Asians live as minorities in countries where the majority population possesses different physical attributes then it is offensive when the minorities are demonised and isolated and generally kept down on account of their differences, which is what that chap Boisclair in Quebec was doing.

Any other questions?


...

[KHANartist]

Ok then, starting from the basics...

It is racist and offensive when a non-Asian, particularly a Westerner, categorizes and denigrates Asians by drawing derogatory reference to physical features that do not conform to Western norms.

I will even furnish you with an appropriate analogy: it is generally impolite and lacking in courtesy to make wisecracks about the "smelly" body odour given off by some South Asian people. This is unkind and offensive to South Asian people because they are being judged (and condemned) according to Other People's norms or standards. South Asian people don't 'smell' to other South Asians, do they?

So to summarise, South Asian body odour is normal, just as Asian eyes are normal. However, when Asians and South Asians live as minorities in countries where the majority population possesses different physical attributes then it is offensive when the minorities are demonised and isolated and generally kept down on account of their differences, which is what that chap Boisclair in Quebec was doing.

Any other questions?


...

Yes, how do you "look around" and see smelly body odour? In all fairness, Mr. Boisclair didn`t say the room was drenched in the pungent aroma of MSG now did he. He described what he saw which was was not pc enough for you and therefore he should categorically state this intention for the East Asians like yourself who did take offense. I know I`m different than the majority and I wouldn`t take offense if someone described my dark skin as dark skin....I`m proud of it.

[theme]

Yes, how do you "look around" and see smelly body odour? In all fairness, Mr. Boisclair didn`t say the room was drenched in the pungent aroma of MSG now did he.

In all fairness, smelling like MSG, which, if it had a smell at all, is not a stereotype that is associated with Asians. So that point is moot. Smelling like curry, or something otherwise as pungent, however, is a stereotype very closely associated with Indians.

Now, you're arguing that because he was 'describing' what he saw with his eyes that it can't be offensive because he's just being honest with what he saw. But is 'slanting eyes' all that accurate when describing Asian eyes? I'd have to say no. Firstly, Asian eyes don't all look the same. Vietnamese and Filipinos tend to look different from Chinese and Korean and Japanese and though the latter three tend to have smaller eyes than Caucasians, they still aren't what people can accurately judge as 'slanted'.

And secondly, what does slanted actually mean?

From Dictionary.com:

slant
v. slant·ed, slant·ing, slants

1. To give a direction other than perpendicular or horizontal to; make diagonal; cause to slope: She slants her letters from upper right to lower left.
2. To present so as to conform to a particular bias or appeal to a certain audience: The story was slanted in favor of the strikers.

Now tell me in what way are 'slanting eyes' ever good to use to describe Asians? How are Asian eyes slanted? We can argue that Asians tend to have smaller eyes than Caucasians, but 'slanted'? No. It isn't. 'Slanted eyes' has and forever will be a derogatory term used to describe Asians.

All this aside, it's not Andres Boisclair I find offensive. It's you. Somehow you feel you have the right to tell me what I should and shouldn't find offensive when it's blatently obviously, even to those who aren't Asian such as Jean Charest and the president of the anti-racist group (don't recall the name), that 'slanting eyes' is not just offensive but it's borderline racist in the context that he used it.

Now would you fault me if I went around and said Indians smell like curry? I'm just describing what I smell.

[KHANartist]

In all fairness, smelling like MSG, which, if it had a smell at all, is not a stereotype that is associated with Asians. So that point is moot. Smelling like curry, or something otherwise as pungent, however, is a stereotype very closely associated with Indians.

Maybe it is about the MSG, maybe it isn`t depends on who you talk to I guess. If he looked around a room and said he saw a room full of "dark-skinned people" I would not take offense. If he looked around and said he saw a bunch of terrorists then obviously I would. It`s like if he said he described the people he saw as having small dicks/tits instead of the awkward way he did. Personally I think he could have chosen his words better and he should have explained himself for the East Asians like yourself who did take offense. Anyway, it doesn`t seem to have impacted the election and if it ever was an issue it is now dead.

[theme]

Maybe it is about the MSG, maybe it isn`t depends on who you talk to I guess.

I've never heard of Asians stereotyped as smelling like MSG. EVER. And you're using a lot of maybes, while I've heard definitely that a lot of Indians smell like curry. I've never used that against them, but I've heard A LOT of Indians smell. I've seen people at the post office covering their noses and leave the line because the person in front is an Indian. And since like you say, I shouldn't be offended by the 'slanting eyes' thing then maybe you shouldn't be offended by the smelling thing either. So if Boisclair said "well I was in Boston and there are a lot of Indians, and boy do they smell." How is that any different from what he said about the slanting eyes? They're both descriptions of what he experienced. I guarantee you that Indian people would be offended if he had said that.


If he looked around a room and said he saw a room full of "dark-skinned people" I would not take offense. If he looked around and said he saw a bunch of terrorists then obviously I would.

If he had said he saw a room full of dark skinned people, there actually isn't anything wrong with that. You're right that noone should be offended by that. If however, he had said that and simultaneously made a strange face or put an emphasis on 'DARK' as if he detested them, then you would be offended. Anyone would.

And that's the problem with him using 'slanting eyes' in the context that he did. Not only is 'slanting eyes' a historically offensive term, but it's the worst possible description one can use to describe Asian eyes. It has no value as an adjective unless used as a derogatory term.


It`s like if he said he described the people he saw as having small dicks/tits instead of the awkward way he did.

I don't even know how that is relevant but it looks like you're being immature.


Personally I think he could have chosen his words better and he should have explained himself for the East Asians like yourself who did take offense. Anyway, it doesn`t seem to have impacted the election and if it ever was an issue it is now dead.

Choosing words wisely is the difference between offensive and eloquence. A wrong choice of words or a misplaced emphasis can make a statement take on a whole different meaning. You seem to acknowledge that he could have chosen his words better but at the same time ridicule 'East Asians like myself' for taking offense. Where is the logic in that?

And why do you keep on saying 'the East Asians like yourself'? It's the second consecutive time you've used that exact phrase. Is this how you talk or are you trying to make a point with the wording? I've never heard of people talk like this unless they live in Newfoundland or somewhere not at the epicentre of multiculturalism. For the record, you don't have to be redundant. I'm sure most of the people who took offense to boisclair ARE Asians so you don't have to act like there is something wrong with us for being offended.

[ChÈ]

Yes, how do you "look around" and see smelly body odour? In all fairness, Mr. Boisclair didn`t say the room was drenched in the pungent aroma of MSG now did he. He described what he saw which was was not pc enough for you and therefore he should categorically state this intention for the East Asians like yourself who did take offense. I know I`m different than the majority and I wouldn`t take offense if someone described my dark skin as dark skin....I`m proud of it.

So, hypothetically speaking, what if he "looked around the room", saw curry stains on the shirt fronts of SOME of the South Asian people in it and came up with the line:

"Sacre bleu! Look at how le currymunchers are taking our school places, stealing our jobs and, soon, they'll be turning us French out of our homes as well, stealing our Patrimony" [which is essentially what Boisclair was saying about Asians].

Would you be offended at being addressed as a 'currymuncher'? More to the point, do you answer to the name 'darkie'?

How about "raghead" - is that offensive enough for you? That term is quite de rigeur in France these days, or so I gather.

[ChÈ]

Yes, how do you "look around" and see smelly body odour?

You are aware, are you not, that smell is also one of the bodily senses? Think hard, you might surprise yourself.

Well, in case you weren't already aware of that fact, please remember that you heard it here first.

[KHANartist]

You are aware, are you not, that smell is also one of the bodily senses? Think hard, you might surprise yourself.

Well, in case you weren't already aware of that fact, please remember that you heard it here first.

I`ve never looked around a room and seen bodily odour. I`ve read the context in which the slanted eyes comment was made and I don`t believe it`s racist. I wouldn`t be offended if someone described seeing large bulging eyes of Asians(South). However, as I said a simple clarification would have sufficed. If Mr Boisclair was American and made this comment it probably wouldn`t have ended this easily. Thankfully Quebec doesn`t fully subscribe to Anglo North American political correctness.

[ChÈ]

I`ve never looked around a room and seen bodily odour. I`ve read the context in which the slanted eyes comment was made and I don`t believe it`s racist. I wouldn`t be offended if someone described seeing large bulging eyes of Asians(South). However, as I said a simple clarification would have sufficed. If Mr Boisclair was American and made this comment it probably wouldn`t have ended this easily. Thankfully Quebec doesn`t fully subscribe to Anglo North American political correctness.

So I think we can take it as read that you do get offended when South Asians are stereotyped as having smelly body odour and we can also assume that you don't answer happily to the name 'darkie' or 'raghead' (both the latter racial epithets are based on observation, by the way).

Yet you are perfectly happy to patronise East Asians who do not accept the racially-loaded and historically insulting term 'slant-eye'.

I would normally say that you are guilty of holding a double-standard, which was where my recent line of questioning was leading.

But your real problem is that you're stupid, obtuse and, frankly, not worth reasoning with.

Goodbye.

[theme]

Khan, you shouldn't take offense to che calling you stupid. He's just describing the impression he is getting of you.

And for the record, I'm not offended when people say I'm sarcastic.

[Scowl]

I never thought that this thread would reach three pages.

[kwak76]

this shit is offensive.

slant eyes or like calling a black person tar baby or monkey boy.

this guy is a sit head but because he sits in a top position and have such narrow view point is scary.

whoever said that the french is more open is retarded.

[theme]

this shit is offensive.

slant eyes or like calling a black person tar baby or monkey boy.

this guy is a sit head but because he sits in a top position and have such narrow view point is scary.

whoever said that the french is more open is retarded.

no offense to you kwak76, as I think different people might have different levels of tolerance to situations like this, but I don't think that the wording boisclair used in the context that he did is comparable to calling a black person a tarbaby. There is just enough leeway in what boisclair said that even some of his opponents defended him. So even though what he said was just plain retarded, I mean why would you ever use that kind of wording when there are a million other ways to describe an Asian, but I don't think it is at the level of calling a black person one of those two names.

[Infectious]

this shit is offensive.

slant eyes or like calling a black person tar baby or monkey boy.

this guy is a sit head but because he sits in a top position and have such narrow view point is scary.

whoever said that the french is more open is retarded.

1) Quebecois are not French (nationals), as much as they want to think they are.
2) "Retarded" isn't much better.
3) It may be tiring, damning and wrong, but it isn't new and it isn't going to go away, so the only thing to do is to make it as bad as possible for them to say such things.
4) It actually doesn't matter if he loses his riding, he's still virtually guaranteed a seat. Generally, if a party leader loses his/her riding in an election (which has happened before), someone else in his/her party, in a non-contested riding usually gives up their seat, they hold a by-election and the party leader regains their seat again.

[KHANartist]

Mr Boisclair`s leftist PQ had a bad day.