Can karate defeat Kung fu?

[General Grievous]

This is what some people think after reviewing this video. It looks like the Karate man is deafting the Kung fu guy hands down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqqSmf8qATc

[evil_FUX]

Ugh, I hate these discussions. Basically, just remember a fighting method is only as good as the person that employs it.

Edit: And this guy's drunken boxing sucks.

[ZhuBaJie]

right, because of the hundreds of different styles of Kung Fu, Drunken Fist is just the epitome of what Kung Fu fighting is. i swear, the Japanese is more fascinated with the Drunken Fist than even the Chinese is. i can't wait till the next Drunken Fist fighting game character comes out. he would be such a unique individual. right.

[aelward]

When it boils down to it, a session like this is not really style vs. style, but individual vs. individual. The Japanese practitioner is doing Kyoukushin Karate-- a full-contact version of Karate embraced by the great Mas Oyama. Japanese people who learn this style are not your average joe. They are the same types who do MMA here in the US. They train full contact, the spar regularly.

That, as opposed to most traditional kung fu systems, where there is a strong emphasis on forms and static partner drills (i.e, no randomization, you know what your Partner is going to do). However, if they integrated conditioning, randomized sparring, and especially sparring against boxers and kickboxers, they will probabably do a lot better.

I would add that Kyoukushin (and it's offshoots: Oyama-kai, Shisei-kai, etc) sparring rules prohibit punches to the face. In my personal experience is that unless they are training for kickboxking tournaments, most Kyoukushin folks do not defend their faces well.

[Kuroyama]

Aelward

As far as the choreographed two man kung fu sets... Im not so sure Id chalk that up to being a kung fu thing as much as a contemporary wushu thing. Im only speaking from taijiquan, and xingyiquan, put in sparring, sparring IS sparring. you dont know what the other guy is going to do. That even goes to something light contact like push hands.

BUT there are those two man sets which dont differ from one man forms... punch here duck there, kick here, etc... Ill never spend time on that. I have enough to worry about just trying to get basics down well. Once I can beat my own teacher at push hands more than 2 out of 100 tries... then Ill think about doing dance routines...

lastly to repeat whats been said... it comes down to the guy, not the art. My teacher back in the states was able to floor me at will. (oh, Im sorry, TWICE in a years time I won...) as opposed to a guy I saw here in Japan who teaches who could not drop his opponent...a karate guy who wasnt even familiar with push hands!! This was just doing FIXED STEP!

[aelward]

I was not talking about 2-man sets, I was talking about partner drills. Person A attacks with some attack, Person B responds with some type of counter. Push Hands has these fixed exercises before they start randomizing; Xingyi, at least the forms I have seen and learned definitely have them; most styles of traditional Kung Fu have them.

And being good at Push Hands (or Sticking Hands for that matter) will not automatically make you good at free sparring.

[Scowl]

That match was a lot like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY0cpZ6ZLEI

[General Grievous]

I used to think that Kung fu was a great art but after watching the Karate man kicking two of the kung fu guys asses, forget it.
If masters are not teaching Kung Fu fighters how to block, what good is it?

Check out how Royces Gracie put down a kung fu fighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL3JZUm0i2E

[evil_FUX]

^Clearly you didn't read the other posts in the thread.

[Vetrean]

It's a striker VS a grappler, what the heck is the striker supposed to do AFTER they're grappling? It's like saying a swordfighter is inferently inferior to a spear fighter, even when the only comparison is when they were both fighting with spears.

[kimtae]

It's a striker VS a grappler, what the heck is the striker supposed to do AFTER they're grappling? It's like saying a swordfighter is inferently inferior to a spear fighter, even when the only comparison is when they were both fighting with spears.

There are some strikers in the MMA world who are notorious for crushing grapplers. The basic strategy is that they refuse to grapple at all. When grabbed, they keep punching and kicking, even if it means just repeatedly pummeling the opponent's back or thigh. Of course the other requirement is to avoid the shoot. Any high school wrestler can tell you how to do this, not really rocket science.
Sakuraba in his prime was known as the Gracie killer. Even though he was an accomplished grappler in his own right, he refused to grapple with the Gracies as much as possible which helped him to a string of impressive victories over several members of the clan. He just punished them with crunching fists and stomps.
Versus Ryan Gracie: notice how he keeps his feet as much as possible and frustrates Ryan; also at one point he's just hammering his fists down on Ryan's butt for lack of another target.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49ec1kV83U
And here's a good montage: You can't always keep your feet against a grappler but this guy is textbook on how to avoid playing their game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CERNSyu2q3c

[General Grievous]

Grapplers wait until you kick them and then they'll attack you. Just don't kick, and if they try to grab your waist, punch them hard on the spine or somewhere on the back to loosen their grip.

[Vetrean]

There are some strikers in the MMA world who are notorious for crushing grapplers. The basic strategy is that they refuse to grapple at all. When grabbed, they keep punching and kicking, even if it means just repeatedly pummeling the opponent's back or thigh. Of course the other requirement is to avoid the shoot. Any high school wrestler can tell you how to do this, not really rocket science.
Sakuraba in his prime was known as the Gracie killer. Even though he was an accomplished grappler in his own right, he refused to grapple with the Gracies as much as possible which helped him to a string of impressive victories over several members of the clan. He just punished them with crunching fists and stomps.
Versus Ryan Gracie: notice how he keeps his feet as much as possible and frustrates Ryan; also at one point he's just hammering his fists down on Ryan's butt for lack of another target.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49ec1kV83U
And here's a good montage: You can't always keep your feet against a grappler but this guy is textbook on how to avoid playing their game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CERNSyu2q3c

I see. Point taken.

[A_BoyNamedSiu]

Grapplers wait until you kick them and then they'll attack you. Just don't kick, and if they try to grab your waist, punch them hard on the spine or somewhere on the back to loosen their grip.

Grapplers aren't necessarily turtles, they just don't wait for you to attack. These people are trained athletes. If you don't think they train to fight various opponents in various situations from other, you've already lost and to think that a grappler cannot be aggressive, offensively, would be foolish. No fighter in his right mind, would want to be a one trick pony.

Sakuraba in his prime was known as the Gracie killer. Even though he was an accomplished grappler in his own right, he refused to grapple with the Gracies as much as possible which helped him to a string of impressive victories over several members of the clan.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. I'm a big fan of Saku, and Saku could go the distance, grappling wise with the Gracies. Look at his record. He's submitted 3 of the Gracies he fought, using the Kimura lock. He emberrased Royce in their extended fight, fiegning boredom in one clinch, and even undoing Royce's gi in another. He easily mixed it up vs. Royce.

Again, I think it's more about being able to adapt and anticipate, rather than rely on one form to get you out of every situation.