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View Full Version : Comparative Racial Complaining, Productive and Unproductive


atlasien
Mar 12th, 2007, 02:25 PM
This has a question at the end...

I have noticed that African-American people complain about themselves much more than white people. There are few white people that make a living criticizing other white people. Usually, they are academics and also have to teach Comp or Social Studies 101 in order to get by.

On the other hand, books, essays and columns criticizing African-Americans are very prevalent.

These are the kinds of self-critiques:

1) constructive critiques, both formal and informal. For example, a black person might complain that many people in their community don't understand credit very well. They think about the root causes and ultimate effects. In response, they support organizations that provide financial education classes and seminars for African-American children and adults.

2) venting critiques. These critiques don't serve any social purpose but they do help the person blow off steam. For example, the black person might be irritated with bad behavior by their friends, neighbors or relatives but feel restricted about complaining around white people. In a safer environment they vent about it. A lot of black comedians have acts built around this venting.

3) counterproductive informal critiques. This is the fatalistic repetition of negative stereotypes in the form of truisms. "black people don't do well in school" "black people get into fights" and so on.

4) counterproductive formal critiques. Often done by black conservatives for a white audience. These critiques blame social problems entirely on the individual without offering any realistic way of educating the individual on how to overcome them. They often tell other black people that they just need to act more like Asians, or like black immigrants. Other versions are done by black people for a black audience. They offer a varying mix of productive, venting and counterproductive "we've just got to do better" critiques.

My question is... how do you see Asian-Americans complaining
about themselves? More productive? Less? Different because of the more fragmented ethnic identity? Eerily similar in some regards?

Personally, when I first went online many years ago I checked out a lot of Asian internet sites but got turned off really quickly because so much energy seemed dedicated to unproductive complaining about other Asians. On the other hand I may not be innocent when it comes to this. It's also very difficult because in order to puncture the model minority myth, we have to get across the fact that some Asians are actually poor and ignorant (in more articulate ways of course, but that's the basic message).

Vetrean
Mar 12th, 2007, 06:21 PM
I don't know about much, but it seems one of the more common forms of Asian VS Asian complaining is the 'Asian female sell-out' issue, which is rather stupid, in my opinion.

I haven't seen much other than that, but I'm something of a newcomer to Asian communities like these, so I have no idea.

Televangelist
Mar 12th, 2007, 08:03 PM
I think geography has a lot to do with it. The members of APA political activism web-communities seem to come, from my limited observations, disproportionately from areas of America where Asian Americans are marginalized and bigotry is the norm.

Their experience is likely going to be very different from someone growing up in Southern California, where Asian Americans are a majority or plurality in many places.

From what I've seen in Southern California, the vast majority of young APAs, just like the vast majority of caucasians here, aren't politically polarized along lines of race or ethnicity - people are much more likely to engage in political issues from an ideological point of view (usually liberal, as we are young Californians) that race/ethnicity doesn't play a significant part in.

To the extent that there's "intra-Asian complaints", I don't see much of it - it tends to be more friendly joking based along stereotypes. Koreans sometimes get joked about more than others, due to the twin stereotypes of zealous nationalism and zealous Christianity, (I can't say whether it's a true stereotype overall, but I can say I've walked into my Korean friend's house once to find her kid sister wrapped in the South Korean flag, and I remember many walks to the PC bang with Korean friends trying to convert me to the Love of Jesus), but that tends to be more about harmless jokes among friends than genuine grievance.

The only real 'dividing lines' I see are classist -- well-to-do rich kids from Irvine (Predominately Korean/Chinese/Japanese-American) looking down on predominately Vietnamese American communities as "ghettos". That doesn't seem to be anything unique to Asian-American communities, but rather mirroring class divides in America at large.

LowFrequency
Mar 13th, 2007, 12:52 AM
We complain much about our lack of voice in the national media.

atlasien
Mar 14th, 2007, 01:12 PM
The media issue is mostly external and doesn't involve self-critique. To get more positive media depictions, we have to exert pressure on organizations that are not run by Asians.

Some of it is internal, though. For example, convincing Asian actors not to accept roles that are demeaning, then getting more Asians in the arts, encouraging Asians in the arts to produce more positive and complicated things, supporting them in their efforts, etc.

In terms of the "sellout" issue... I agree there is a truly humongous amount of counterproductive complaining going. It's also really hard to separate venting from counterproductive critique when it comes to this.

Productive complaining does not further demean and insult the Asian woman (I always like using the word woman instead of female). Young Asian girls need to grow up with good self-esteem and be mentally armored against racist attention. How can we do this? Certainly not by complaints that their crotch area should be reserved for Asian men.

Getting back to the comparison, playing blame games also happens a lot in black communities. See the discussion below for an example, with some interesting debate in the comments. The issue is different of course, but concern about "access to the crotch area" shows a strong parallel.

http://www.thephink.com/thethink/2006/08/07/black-people-and-babies/

Tyger Durden
Mar 17th, 2007, 04:52 PM
My question is... how do you see Asian-Americans complaining
about themselves? More productive? Less? Different because of the more fragmented ethnic identity? Eerily similar in some regards?

When minority groups "complain" (voicing their opinion, exercising Free Speech instead?), I see Whites as the common denominator.

For example, both Asians and Blacks (and all People of Colour) are forced to compare themselves to the White/Europeans standards of Beauty.

Intra-group complaining is natural among all and any ethnic group, but if it involves an outside group, that group are Whites/Europeans in some manner. Being so, it becomes an issue of "power dynamics", whether personal, political, economical, physical, moral, historical, etc. in comparison to Whites/Europeans, who enjoy a "faux" neutrality of sorts.

KHANartist
Mar 21st, 2007, 02:07 PM
I don't know about much, but it seems one of the more common forms of Asian VS Asian complaining is the 'Asian female sell-out' issue, which is rather stupid, in my opinion.


Sellout eh? Difficult to believe how some men could have such a false sense of entitlement.