Yoinks! Ha, I was first to tread on this section!

[kimtae]

But I do have a serious query. What's the deal with engagement rings these days? What is considered a good size and price? Any of you married folks have any tips on buying?

[Dialectic]

I don't know a lot of details, but I had a buddy who did some hardcore research a while back.

Spend time on the internet and learn about diamond-grading, sources, and suppliers. The quality of the diamond (as opposed to just karat values) apparently makes a huge difference in worth and re-sale value. Treat it as an investment and you won't feel quite so destitute after you buy one.

And avoid Sierra Leone if you can.

[maogirl]

aiyah, don't be dropping advice about things you're not sure about, D!

if you want to buy a diamond as an engagement ring, don't treat it as an investment. investment diamonds are $$$ and need to meet a certain carat weight, cut and clarity. plus, if a diamond is to be worn every day, it wears the stone down eventually.

if you want to give an engagement ring to someone, i suggest buying the diamond separately then having a ring made. if the ring is to be worn every day, make sure that the setting for the stone can protect the edges of the diamond and prevent it from chipping.

i would recommend choosing colour over clarity when choosing a diamond -- rather than focussing on a flawless diamond, get one as close to D colour as possible, but don't go lower than VS2 on the clarity.

ie: D colour (colourless) + VS2 (very slightly imperfect) > M colour (light yellow) + VVS2 (very very slightly imperfect)

chicks like the sparkle, they don't care if you can see a mole in the diamond under a loupe or microscope.

however, at the end of it all, i think people should buy diamonds from gemesis (http://www.gemesis.com). lab-grown diamonds is where the future is at, and you can't even tell the difference. they only do fancy colours though, 'cause they don't want to fuck with de beers.

i give this thread one star 'cause D is a know-it-all. tsk.

[kimtae]

Ha, I figured this thread would get MG's attention. You're right, D likes to act like he knows something about womanly things, must be that feminine side in him.
MG, I've considered man-made diamonds but how would most women react to being told what it is?

[atlasien]

My experience is not very traditional. I wouldn't trust my husband to know anything about stones or jewelry, and I'm not a fan of diamonds. I bought the stone (a spinel) on eBay then we went to a jeweler and had them do a custom design in white gold.

[minbo]

Thanks to DeBeers the standard for engagement rings is a diamond, but it did not used to be this way just a century ago! I think that it would be nice to buck the trend and go for something that is not as tainted in blood, exploitive and has it's price propped up artificially as Diamonds are.

On the other hand, if I was to get engaged and the girl I was proposing to wanted a diamond, then I'd get one without a second thought and without regret. Because I wouldn't want to have my balls in a vice the rest of my married life... Just all guys are just along for the (expensive, extravagant, stressful and tedious) ride of the thing that often comes after the engagement, the wedding.

As Maogirl says, after a certain point, you don't need to go crazy over the grade, or colour. Personally if I was shopping or a rock, my lowest search parameters would be a round cut, with the minimums of grade VS2, colour of G or H, Very Good cut and leave the carat weight open. I would probably lean to a rock that was VVS2, F colour, Very Good cut diamond of whatever weight was in my budget. Any diamond I buy would HAVE to be certified by GIA or AGSL. Not just certified by someone trained by them. I'm also a sucker for simplicity. Rather than funnel money into some small side stones, I prefer sinking all the dough into a solitaire.

As with the Diamonds being pushed on the populace by DeBeers, the 2 month salary price point was also pushed on us by DeBeers and you should readily feel free to ignore it, either under or over.

[vsoy]

MG, I've considered man-made diamonds but how would most women react to being told what it is?

I think it really depends on the woman. Personally as someone who likes high tech stuff, I think these diamonds made under high pressure is pretty cool. The whole blood diamond and De Beer propaganda diminished my enthusiasm for diamonds. But to avoid disappointment, you should probably ask the woman (or find out) what kind of stones she likes.

From what I understand, you pay a big premium for 1 carat size. Personally, I find many 1 carat engagement rings that women wear to be too big, tacky and flawed but the 0.75 carat rings to be more tasteful.

[maogirl]

Ha, I figured this thread would get MG's attention. You're right, D likes to act like he knows something about womanly things, must be that feminine side in him.
MG, I've considered man-made diamonds but how would most women react to being told what it is?

tsk, if you wanted my attention, you just need to drop some bank statements.

you know, gemesis diamonds aren't cheap, either. they're not as expensive as mined ones, but really good-quality cultured diamonds can run into tens of thousands of dollars.

i can't wait till they make red diamonds. gorgeous. red is my colour, which explains why i bleed so much.

but anyway, why do you gotta tell a bitch in the first place? but if she finds out, just tell her to shut the fuck up, it's your paychecks that got her that rock. if she wants a real diamond, she can go buy one and oppress a bunch of south africans herself.

[cattygurl]

Gemeisis would create colorless diamonds if they could- they just... can't. not yet, but they are trying. I'm actually a fan of the colored diamonds (especially yellow) so I would have no issues with a gemesis (and you don't have to worry about conflict diamonds).

Also, the setting IMHO is as equally important as the stone. I've seen some nice stones in pretty crap settings. I'd rather have a smaller rock and a very nice setting over a big rock and mediocre settings. For antique style settings in yellow gold, I won't mind even more warmth- in fact, I think a D-F stone kind of takes away from the antique flair. I also think non-diamonds are lovely as engagement rings. The only issue with non-diamonds as daily wear rings is that softer stones are prone to wear and tear.

That said, I'm not an engagement ring person, and I'm not a big jewelry person- although the few that I have, I've had custom-made. What I know comes from working for a custom jeweler as a part-time job.

[maogirl]

Gemeisis would create colorless diamonds if they could- they just... can't. not yet, but they are trying. I'm actually a fan of the colored diamonds (especially yellow) so I would have no issues with a gemesis (and you don't have to worry about conflict diamonds).


don't spread false information.

What Colors does Gemesis Produce?
Gemesis has the capability to produce its cultured diamonds in a wide range of colors and even in colorless form. However, it limits its production currently to the most popular fashion hues of vivid and intense yellow and orange. These laboratory-grown diamonds are often superior to mined fancy diamonds in the same color range.

negative star.

[minbo]

As for man made vs "real" diamonds, I don't see why that would be an issue. If you blow a few thousand dollars on a diamond, who cares if it is "real" or not. You blew a few thousand dollars on her! It's not like you got a cut rate cubic zirconia for a few hundred dollars and are trying to pretend it is a couple thousand dollar diamond. Complaining that it is man made is like complaining that a pound of feathers is not as heavy as a pound of lead. Besides, you know, it is the thought and symbolism that counts, not the actual material item or the worth. Yeah right....

[awong]

my friend was trying to convince girls I know at school about diamonds and about the whole debeers thing, I think he failed at it lol

[cattygurl]

What Colors does Gemesis Produce?
Gemesis has the capability to produce its cultured diamonds in a wide range of colors and even in colorless form. However, it limits its production currently to the most popular fashion hues of vivid and intense yellow and orange. These laboratory-grown diamonds are often superior to mined fancy diamonds in the same color range.


Wow, that must be new. That said, my info is a bit on the older side. WSJ reported about it in Jan, so I suspect it's pretty new info. That's really cool.

Well, you learn something new every day.

This should make a lot of people happy...

[kimtae]

As for man made vs "real" diamonds, I don't see why that would be an issue. If you blow a few thousand dollars on a diamond, who cares if it is "real" or not. You blew a few thousand dollars on her! It's not like you got a cut rate cubic zirconia for a few hundred dollars and are trying to pretend it is a couple thousand dollar diamond. Complaining that it is man made is like complaining that a pound of feathers is not as heavy as a pound of lead. Besides, you know, it is the thought and symbolism that counts, not the actual material item or the worth. Yeah right....
But you forget, women are a mass of conflicting impulses. Or as Jack Nicholson put it in 'As Good as it Gets', " "I think of a man... then I take away all reason and accountability."
Now this two month's salary thing, is that the rule? It's not two weeks? Cuz two month's, damn, that would keep MG in a lot of ciggies and mojitas. And I don't think I've ever seen a woman with two month's salary worth of diamond, either that or all of my friends are poverty stricken.

[maogirl]

Wow, that must be new. That said, my info is a bit on the older side. WSJ reported about it in Jan, so I suspect it's pretty new info. That's really cool.


nice try. gemesis has been able to create colourless diamonds since at least 2002.


kimtae, i quit smoking and i barely drink now! although i wonder if i should start again because i got mistaken for a high school student today.

and it's 3 months salary, not 2! a .5 carat D colour brilliant cut diamond VS1 goes for around USD 8,000. i assume most chicks would expect at least a 1 carat and the price would probably end up being close to USD 20,000 for one for the same quality.

[minbo]

There are no rules... In the post WW II to Vietnam era, most engagement stones were smaller weights. To stimulate profit, just as they got movie stars in the 20s and 30s to hawk diamonds as THE engagement stone (they had been working on it since the 1800s, but they really hit the bank in the 1920s), DeBeers started the whole 2 month salary rule. I don't know if the rule of thumb is for gross income or net (after taxes, social security, medicare/medicade, 401k health care and other pre-tax deductions). Sure enough, the size of the rock that women expected and DeBeers sold, along with their profit started to grow in size.

As for price of stones... Just going to one of the online retailers that Google pops up when you search for diamond, I found an AGSL certified 1 caret round cut, D colour, VS1 ideal cut/ideal polish/ideal symmetry for for $8,220 USD. For $20,837 USD you can get an AGSL certified round cut, 1.51 caret, D colour, VVS1 ideal cut/ideal polish/ideal symmetry.

And no, I'm not getting either of those for anyone!

I saw a show about the man made diamonds on PBS a few years ago. The first ones made were yellow due to the nitrogen molecules in the air being incorporated into the crystalline structure of the diamond. They eliminate the yellow colour by purging the atmosphere in the pressure chamber and add other colours by selectively adding other impurities. For the show they made a small diamond out of a dollop of peanut butter. Under a blacklight, the man made stones fluoresced along the crystalline boundary between the starter "seed" and the rest of the diamond structure, not sure if they "solved" that yet.

[cattygurl]

Hey, I had the wrong info. Now I know.

[kimtae]

Two months salary, three months salary! 8 grand, 20 grand! You guys are giving me an aneurism! I might spend a ton of money on a motorcycle without batting any eye but I can't see myself paying as much as you guys are saying for a diamond! Guess I'm cheap when it comes to stuff like that. I was just wondering though because I can see myself getting married in the next couple of years and it's good to know what I might be in for. And it looks like I might be in for more than I care!

[maogirl]

aiyah, that's why men should aim to only get married once, and women should try to get married as many times as possible.

anyway, if you're interested, the hk census was just published and there are only 961 men for every 1000 women. this doesn't include domestic helpers but includes gay men, so you can see the dire straits chicks like me are in.

if you come to hk, you might be the one getting a diamond out of the situation. ;-)

[Ike]

Two months salary, three months salary! 8 grand, 20 grand! You guys are giving me an aneurism! I might spend a ton of money on a motorcycle without batting any eye but I can't see myself paying as much as you guys are saying for a diamond! Guess I'm cheap when it comes to stuff like that. I was just wondering though because I can see myself getting married in the next couple of years and it's good to know what I might be in for. And it looks like I might be in for more than I care!

You should buy her a motorcycle instead. XD

[awong]

if you come to hk, you might be the one getting a diamond out of the situation. ;-)

good idea haha, tampa is the opposite from what I was reading in an article in the paper a year ago...

[minbo]

If you give an expensive engagement ring, resist the temptation to do so on any holiday or birthday. Case law for those unfortunate souls who's engagement broke off and the two involved went to court over the ring shows that legally if the ring is given on a holiday/birthday than it is often considered a gift and remains in possession of the recipient. If given on another day and the context is specifically romantic/proposal, then the person giving the ring is likely to get the ring back.

As for Hong Kong male/female ratio, when are you going to find me a good looking, athletic and rich HK woman?

[Dialectic]

It's TWO MONTHS. The only debate is gross or net :P

Plus, you don't want a chick who's going to be wearing that (and wearing it down) all the time! That's ridiculous! That's like losing fifty bucks every time she goes out to work! INVESTMENT :P:P:P

[JadeDragon]

INVESTMENT :P:P:P

*TSK*!!! There is no way that a diamond can ever be considered an "investment" unless it's famous, rare or absolutely perfect. Those suckers depreciate like nobody's business once you walk out of the jewellery showroom, and resale prices are often much lower than the original price you'd have paid. You might as well buy 24-karat gold! Or index funds! :P


Here's a good article about the actual value of diamonds:
Selling individual diamonds at a profit, even those held over long periods of time, can be surprisingly difficult. For example, in 1970, the London-based consumer magazine Money Which? decided to test diamonds as a decade long investment. It bought two gem-quality diamonds, weighing approximately one-half carat apiece, from one of London's most reputable diamond dealers, for £400 (then worth about a thousand dollars). For nearly nine years, it kept these two diamonds sealed in an envelope in its vault. During this same period, Great Britain experienced inflation that ran as high as 25 percent a year. For the diamonds to have kept pace with inflation, they would have had to increase in value at least 300 percent, making them worth some £400 pounds by 1978. But when the magazine's editor, Dave Watts,tried to sell the diamonds in 1978, he found that neither jewelry stores nor wholesale dealers in London's Hatton Garden district would pay anywhere near that price for the diamonds. Most of the stores refused to pay any cash for them; the highest bid Watts received was £500, which amounted to a profit of only £100 in over eight years, or less than 3 percent at a compound rate of interest. If the bid were calculated in 1970 pounds, it would amount to only £167. Dave Watts summed up the magazine's experiment by saying, "As an 8-year investment the diamonds that we bought have proved to be very poor." The problem was that the buyer, not the seller, determined the price.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198202/diamond

[angi]

You should spend what is in your budget. Unless you are broke as hell, two months salary is rediculous.

[jewelry-fan]

People say that engagement rings should be worth two months worth of salary. I say buy what you can afford.