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Dialectic
Jan 24th, 2007, 09:57 PM
Great article on gender bias in science, with a bit of racial stuff mixed in too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201883.html

Male Scientist Writes of Life as Female Scientist
Biologist Who Underwent Sex Change Describes Biases Against Women

By Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 13, 2006; Page A10

Neurobiologist Ben Barres has a unique perspective on former Harvard president Lawrence Summers's assertion that innate differences between the sexes might explain why many fewer women than men reach the highest echelons of science.

That's because Barres used to be a woman himself.

Ben Barres, a neurobiologist at Stanford University's Medical Center, looks through a microscope in his lab on Tuesday, July 11, 2006. Barres switched sexes from female to male with a round of hormones in 1997. Barres has recently written an opinion piece which attributes institutional bias as the reason for the shortage of women in the sciences. (Marcio Jose

In a highly unusual critique published yesterday, the Stanford University biologist -- who used to be Barbara -- said his experience as both a man and a woman had given him an intensely personal insight into the biases that make it harder for women to succeed in science.

After he underwent a sex change nine years ago at the age of 42, Barres recalled, another scientist who was unaware of it was heard to say, "Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister's."

And as a female undergraduate at MIT, Barres once solved a difficult math problem that stumped many male classmates, only to be told by a professor: "Your boyfriend must have solved it for you."

"By far," Barres wrote, "the main difference I have noticed is that people who don't know I am transgendered treat me with much more respect" than when he was a woman. "I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man."

Barres said the switch had given him access to conversations that would have excluded him previously: "I had a conversation with a male surgeon and he told me he had never met a woman surgeon who was as good as a man."

Barres's salvo, bolstered with scientific studies, marks a dramatic twist in a controversy that began with Summers's suggestion last year that "intrinsic aptitude" may explain why there are relatively few tenured female scientists at Harvard. After a lengthy feud with the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, Summers resigned earlier this year.

The episode triggered a fierce fight between those who say talk of intrinsic differences reflects sexism that has held women back and those who argue that political correctness is keeping scientists from frankly discussing the issue.

While there are men and women on both sides of the argument, the debate has exposed fissures along gender lines, which is what makes Barres so unusual. Barres said he has realized from personal experience that many men are unconscious of the privileges that come with being male, which leaves them unable to countenance talk of glass ceilings and discrimination.

Barres's commentary was published yesterday in the journal Nature. The scientist has also recently taken his argument to the highest reaches of American science, crusading to make access to prestigious awards more equitable.

In an interview, Nancy Andreasen, a well-known psychiatrist at the University of Iowa, agreed with Barres. She said it took her a long time to convince her husband that he got more respect when he approached an airline ticket counter than she did. When she stopped sending out research articles under her full name and used the initials N.C. Andreasen instead, she said, the acceptance rate of her publications soared.

Andreasen, one of the comparatively few women who have won the National Medal of Science, said she is still regularly reminded she is female. "Often, I will be standing in a group of men, and another person will come up and say hello to all the men and just will not see me, because in a professional setting, men are not programmed to see women," she said. "Finally, one of the men will say, 'I guess you haven't met Nancy Andreasen,' and then the person will turn bright red and say, 'Oh Nancy, nice to see you!' "

Summers did not respond to a request for an interview. But two scientists Barres lambasted along with Summers said the Stanford neurobiologist had misrepresented their views and unfairly tarred those who disagree with crude assertions of racism and sexism. Harvard cognitive scientist Steven Pinker and Peter Lawrence, a biologist at Britain's Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge, said convincing data show there are differences between men and women in a host of mental abilities.

While bias could be a factor in why there were fewer women at the pinnacles of science, both argued that this was not a primary factor.

Pinker, who said he is a feminist, said experiments have shown, on average, that women are better than men at mathematical calculation and verbal fluency, and that men are better at spatial visualization and mathematical reasoning. It is hardly surprising, he said, that in his own field of language development, the number of women outstrips men, while in mechanical engineering, there are far more men.

"Is it essential to women's progress that women be indistinguishable from men?" he asked. "It confuses the issue of fairness with sameness. Let's say the data shows sex differences. Does it become okay to discriminate against women? The moral issue of treating individuals fairly should be kept separate from the empirical issues."

Lawrence said it is a "utopian" idea that "one fine day, there will be an equal number of men and women in all jobs, including those in scientific research."

He said a range of cognitive differences could partly account for stark disparities, such as at his own institute, which has 56 male and six female scientists. But even as he played down the role of sexism, Lawrence said the "rat race" in science is skewed in favor of pushy, aggressive people -- most of whom, he said, happen to be men.

"We should try and look for the qualities we actually need," he said. "I believe if we did, that we would choose more women and more gentle men. It is gentle people of all sorts who are discriminated against in our struggle to survive."

Barres and Elizabeth Spelke, a Harvard psychologist who has publicly debated Pinker on the issue, say they have little trouble with the idea that there are differences between the sexes, although some differences, especially among children, involve biases among adults in interpreting the same behavior in boys and girls.

And both argue it is difficult to tease apart nature from nurture. "Does anyone doubt if you study harder you will do better on a test?" Barres asked. "The mere existence of an IQ difference does not say it is innate. . . . Why do Asian girls do better on math tests than American boys? No one thinks they are innately better."

In her debate with Pinker last year, Spelke said arguments about innate differences as explanations for disparities become absurd if applied to previous eras. "You won't see a Chinese face or an Indian face in 19th-century science," she said. "It would have been tempting to apply this same pattern of statistical reasoning and say, there must be something about European genes that give rise to greater mathematical talent than Asian genes."

"I think we want to step back and ask, why is it that almost all Nobel Prize winners are men today?" she concluded. "The answer to that question may be the same reason why all the great scientists in Florence were Christian."

Dirac
Jan 24th, 2007, 10:21 PM
I read this somewhere before - I can really relate to the part about "I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man." To be fair, when I went to university there was a big push for equality and more women in science / engineering, but in the workplace I'm often talked over. I have a quiet voice anyway, which doesn't help, so I just sit there dreaming up plans of world domination in my head. 8-)

kwak76
Jan 24th, 2007, 10:59 PM
You know as an Asian man I experience this in the work place. People assume that Asians are quiet. Sometimes people ignore me or talk over me thinking that I am this passive Asian. I notice they(clients ) don't do this to non-Asians. I have to always talker louder or be more pushy...over time you feel burnt out because you have to always prove yourself.

It is like you always have to perform to break the stereotypes. If not you go back to that stereotypes. It's not fair but you have no choice. Unless society is willingly to change you have to always perform better.

In the end..you hope you leave some impact on some people but at least for me...somedays you feel burnt out from constantly proving yourself.

blockthebox
Jan 25th, 2007, 02:16 PM
^ Well, there's a difference between proving yourself and asserting yourself.

With respect to not being regarded because you're asian ... listen, that's just the way it is. It's not right, but that's the way whites/blacks/browns see us. You have to be ten - hell, twenty - times better than them in every respect in order to be considered equal. (And I don't want any assholes piping in about why it's so important what crackers think - this isn't about that, motherfuckers.) That's a way you can make a difference and impart change in the world.

There's a lot of inequity and just plain shittiness in the world. Be awesome and try to live life with a little positivity. Seriously, it helps.

Candide
Jan 25th, 2007, 09:16 PM
Yeah, we need to assert ourselves a hell lot more and perform many times better. One of my professors at uni (whom I respect the most) told us once that it's important to be "doing good" but it's just as important to be "seen doing good". I always make sure that I'm "seen doing good" by many so that no fucker can take the credit for it, and where I work - a big place with about 9000 staff, there are many lazy incompetent bastards who are somehow very quick at doing that.

Most people here know me and respect my capabilities by now, but earlier there were some ignorant ones. They would charge into my team's office (I'm the only Asian in the team, the rest are whites), say hello and be friendly to everyone but me (like I don't exist), and ask for help with some really tough problems. There were some who would even say it to my face that they had a very difficult one and would prefer to wait for my manager (who used to work in my position) to get back, when nobody else is there except me. They were often embarassed when my colleagues, including the manager, told them to ask me as I'm the highest in charge of all technical issues, and mumbled some "hi can you help me". That's when I would tell them that I'm very busy right now, but if they submit a support request through our online system, I'd have a look at it (and tune out of further whining from them about how urgent it is). :lol: These days they often ask to speak to me first (but I then tell them to talk to my colleagues on the frontline first anyway if it's not a really difficult one).

In meetings, seminars and conferences, I'm known as the guy who asks a lot of hard questions (many of which most people don't have the balls to ask) and actively contributes (I also present at many of them). The first few times I did it, almost everyone had a very surprised look on their faces as they didn't expect an Asian to be so outspoken. Very funny sight. 8-) That stereotype of the quiet passive Asian could easily extend to take most of those whiteys in. They are just as quiet and passive despite their numerical advantage and privileges.

Ike
Jan 25th, 2007, 09:28 PM
That stereotype of the quiet passive Asian could easily extend to take most of those whiteys in. They are just as quiet and passive despite their numerical advantage and privileges.

Maybe they're passive BECAUSE of their privileges. They just kind of assume that everything will go their way, because that's how it's always been.

Candide
Jan 25th, 2007, 09:40 PM
Very good point. I reckon you're right. "She'll be right, mate" is their most common attitude.

PhoenixRisen
Feb 24th, 2007, 01:06 PM
^ Well, there's a difference between proving yourself and asserting yourself.

With respect to not being regarded because you're asian ... listen, that's just the way it is. It's not right, but that's the way whites/blacks/browns see us. You have to be ten - hell, twenty - times better than them in every respect in order to be considered equal. (And I don't want any assholes piping in about why it's so important what crackers think - this isn't about that, motherfuckers.) That's a way you can make a difference and impart change in the world.

There's a lot of inequity and just plain shittiness in the world. Be awesome and try to live life with a little positivity. Seriously, it helps.



Wow. That's surprising to hear. As an african-american schooled in the beyond unbelievable public school system many of our teachers seemed to believe that asians were smarter than the rest of the student population and that whites were smarter than the blacks.:(

Justin
Feb 26th, 2007, 12:07 PM
Racial or Gender-wise, being unconcious or unwillingly of any issue within your group just because you have a sort of privilege always comes back to bite you in the azz (whether you play into the model-minority or the majority itself) Its gonna take a lot more transgenders or similar situations to really shake things up though cause it all comes down to an individual thing in the end.