Kaiten - Take Two

[lycheng]

Since I want to post a response to Kaiten within the Rules of Engagement, I thought I'd start a new thread here, in the appropriate area.

I'm not sure why the earlier thread was deleted. So I thought I'd start a new one in order to respond to the latest posts in the earlier thread.

Do I "get it." Obviously not. Am I capable of "getting it"? I don't know. Do the other posters on the earlier thread have anything to learn from me? I guess not. But there are things I can learn from the members of the f44. Each of us is the product of our culture and times. It's very difficult for a person to raise himself or herself above the norms of the prevailing culture and times. I was born in 1951.

It's possible that I can come to understand the views of most members in an intellectual sense. But I will never be able to understand the depth of their emotions because my experiences in life have been so different. So I will lurk, and occasionally post in order to register my views or ask questions, not to pursue a dialogue.

I can only speak for myself here. I do think whites can achieve a level of understanding with regards to race. The fact that you've acknowledged your understanding is limited to the intellectual level because you've never experienced life as a minority is a good step in the right direction. Now the reason I'm here is to have a constructive dialog with Asian Americans, or anyone for that matter, who believes the internet can be a force for positive change. This might not be the reason others are here so you have to take that into consideration.

Returning to the issue of Chinese Nationalism (as you call it)Ö. I read your response that you don't mind people of Chinese ancestry living in the U.S. rooting for athletes representing Chinese Nationals. That's great. How about the geopolitical realm? What do you think if a Chinese American finds the rise of China in the world's stage to be a positive counter-balance to the United States? Is my patriotism questioned if I think that's a good thing? I'm not talking about delighting in seeing the downfall of the U.S. I'm talking about being against American hegemony in the world.

lycheng

[Catatonic]

Returning to the issue of Chinese Nationalism (as you call it)Ö. I read your response that you don't mind people of Chinese ancestry living in the U.S. rooting for athletes representing Chinese Nationals. That's great.

It's one thing if Chinese-Americans root for Chinese or Taiwanese teams to the exclusion of rooting for American teams.

But there is inherently nothing wrong with a Chinese-Am also rooting for them.

There are plenty of Irish, Italian, Greek, Czech, Swedish, etc. Americans who root for teams from their ancestral lands. Heck, there are Irish, Greek, etc. Americans who have been on Olympic teams for their ancestral countries.

There are a number of well-known native Canadians - Peter Jennings (RIP), Michael J Fox , etc. - who have attained US citizenship.

Does anyone really think they don't root for Team Canada during the hockey World Cup?

[Infectious]

Does anyone really think they don't root for Team Canada during the hockey World Cup?

Brett Hull? :lol:

[Kaiten]

Since I want to post a response to Kaiten within the Rules of Engagement, I thought I'd start a new thread here, in the appropriate area.

I'm not sure why the earlier thread was deleted. So I thought I'd start a new one in order to respond to the latest posts in the earlier thread.

Do I "get it." Obviously not. Am I capable of "getting it"? I don't know. Do the other posters on the earlier thread have anything to learn from me? I guess not. But there are things I can learn from the members of the f44. Each of us is the product of our culture and times. It's very difficult for a person to raise himself or herself above the norms of the prevailing culture and times. I was born in 1951.

It's possible that I can come to understand the views of most members in an intellectual sense. But I will never be able to understand the depth of their emotions because my experiences in life have been so different. So I will lurk, and occasionally post in order to register my views or ask questions, not to pursue a dialogue.

I can only speak for myself here. I do think whites can achieve a level of understanding with regards to race. The fact that you've acknowledged your understanding is limited to the intellectual level because you've never experienced life as a minority is a good step in the right direction. Now the reason I'm here is to have a constructive dialog with Asian Americans, or anyone for that matter, who believes the internet can be a force for positive change. This might not be the reason others are here so you have to take that into consideration.

Returning to the issue of Chinese Nationalism (as you call it)Ö. I read your response that you don't mind people of Chinese ancestry living in the U.S. rooting for athletes representing Chinese Nationals. That's great. How about the geopolitical realm? What do you think if a Chinese American finds the rise of China in the world's stage to be a positive counter-balance to the United States? Is my patriotism questioned if I think that's a good thing? I'm not talking about delighting in seeing the downfall of the U.S. I'm talking about being against American hegemony in the world.

lycheng

Hello Lycheng,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. You ask a couple of interesting questions, and the questions deserve serious answers. But first I'd like to state several caveats:

(1) In responding to the questions it is not my intention to teach any of the members anything. I don't believe that is within my power. If my writing style seems pedantic, its just the way I try to methodically address the questions. It is not my intention to carry on a dialogue. I'm only answering your questions as best I can. If I seem clueless it is because I am. It is not my intention to offend anyone. If I do it's not done deliberately, intentionally, by design or with malice. I can only respond based on my understanding and experience.

(2) I think ethnic pride is a good thing. I think patriotism for one's country is a good thing. To me patriotism means love for one's land. I don't care what the dictionary says. I think nationalism is a bad thing. According to my view nationalism is based on the belief that one's country is superior to all other countries, and is therefore like chauvinism. I don't care what the dictionary says. Imperialism is nationalism in practice. This is a bad thing. I don't care what the dictionary says. Hegemony is imperialism gone wild, i.e., taken to the most extreme level. I don't care what the dictionary says. Throughout history many peoples have been tempted by the dream of imperialism. To my knowledge no people having the ability to build an empire has avoided the temptation. Hegemony is never permanent.

(3) Supporting or opposing hegemony by an individual with ties to two different countries is substantively different than rooting for or against atheletes from two different countries at the same time. There is not a difference in degree, but in kind, between being an athletic supporter (get it?) and supporting or opposing hegemony. Lives are at stake in the latter case.

(4) In answering the questions I assume that the Chinese American (CA) is a US citizen, not a resident alien under the law. I assume that the CA's primary loyalty is not to a political party or ideology.

(5) In answering the question I will examine possibly different results based on whether the CA was born on American soil or is a naturalized American. I will also consider the impact of transnationalism. I define transnationalism as the belief that the Westphalian nation-state model is outmoded, and that loyalty should extend to something broader such as the European Union, the coming North American Union, or the World as a whole (or is it hole?). In theory I believe transnationalism is a worthy ideal. In practice transnationalism's ultimate ideal of a world without borders cannot be achieved until every one of the peoples of the earth has worked through its nationalism, and the poison has passed from the body politic.

To be continued in my next post.

[Kaiten]

Hello Lycheng,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. You ask a couple of interesting questions, and the questions deserve serious answers. But first I'd like to state several caveats:

(1) In responding to the questions it is not my intention to teach any of the members anything. I don't believe that is within my power. If my writing style seems pedantic, its just the way I try to methodically address the questions. It is not my intention to carry on a dialogue. I'm only answering your questions as best I can. If I seem clueless it is because I am. It is not my intention to offend anyone. If I do it's not done deliberately, intentionally, by design or with malice. I can only respond based on my understanding and experience.

(2) I think ethnic pride is a good thing. I think patriotism for one's country is a good thing. To me patriotism means love for one's land. I don't care what the dictionary says. I think nationalism is a bad thing. According to my view nationalism is based on the belief that one's country is superior to all other countries, and is therefore like chauvinism. I don't care what the dictionary says. Imperialism is nationalism in practice. This is a bad thing. I don't care what the dictionary says. Hegemony is imperialism gone wild, i.e., taken to the most extreme level. I don't care what the dictionary says. Throughout history many peoples have been tempted by the dream of imperialism. To my knowledge no people having the ability to build an empire has avoided the temptation. Hegemony is never permanent.

(3) Supporting or opposing hegemony by an individual with ties to two different countries is substantively different than rooting for or against atheletes from two different countries at the same time. There is not a difference in degree, but in kind, between being an athletic supporter (get it?) and supporting or opposing hegemony. Lives are at stake in the latter case.

(4) In answering the questions I assume that the Chinese American (CA) is a US citizen, not a resident alien under the law. I assume that the CA's primary loyalty is not to a political party or ideology.

(5) In answering the question I will examine possibly different results based on whether the CA was born on American soil or is a naturalized American. I will also consider the impact of transnationalism. I define transnationalism as the belief that the Westphalian nation-state model is outmoded, and that loyalty should extend to something broader such as the European Union, the coming North American Union, or the World as a whole (or is it hole?). In theory I believe transnationalism is a worthy ideal. In practice transnationalism's ultimate ideal of a world without borders cannot be achieved until every one of the peoples of the earth has worked through its nationalism, and the poison has passed from the body politic.

To be continued in my next post.

Lycheng,

I would like to clarify the second sentence of no. (1) of my last post as highlighted above. What I mean is that I am not qualified to teach any forum member anything, and I can't teach anyone anything because they already know it.

The rise of China on the world stage is an historic event of the greatest magnitude. It's almost like China (and India) are reentering world history from which they've been absent for so long. The consequences of China's rise are too numerous to list. Most of the consequences are IMO positive. Some are negative. Probably many are not even foreseeable.

I place no faith in the CCP. To me its a one party Leninist (not Marxist) gang whose legitimacy is very much in doubt. The difference with the US government is that power is much more diffused here both through the federal system and the ability of many different groups to have some impact on the exercise of power. I'm not suggesting that America isn't capable of going off track, e.g., Iraq. However, the American system does have self correcting mechanisms that an authoritarian system does not, e.g., the recent midterm election.

I would have to place my faith in the Chinese people who deserve to take their rightful place in the world. The Chinese are a great people for so many different reasons. I'm proud of the fact that my wife and children share their blood. Back to your questions.

I'm in no position to tell anyone what opinions they can hold on the rise of China and its impact on American hegemony. However, I am entitled to my own opinion as to the patriotism of the CA in your example. The short answer to your question is that it depends on all the facts and circumstances. Let's examine those facts and circumstances.

Objectively speaking, if the CA perceives no conflict between the interests of China and America his or her patriotism cannot be impugned. However, I think it is hard hold the objective view that there is no conflict between the interests of the two countries.

If the CA believes there is a conflict between the interests of China and America, and favors the rise of China over America's stated national interests another level of analysis is required in trying to determine whether he or she is an American patriot. Most American citizens benefit from American economic, political and military supremacy in one way or another. I know the preceding sentence can be challenged, but it's what I believe. Other people are entitled to their own beliefs. By benefiting from the American system a citizen assumes certain obligations to America. One of those obligations is to seek what is best for America and the American people.

The hard part is in determining what is best for America. If the CA in question believes that the continuation of American hegemony is in the best interests of the American people, his or her support for that hegemony is patriotic. If, however, the CA believes that maintenance of American hegemony is ultimately inconsistent with the best interests of America and her people he or she must be viewed as patriotic.

On the other hand, if the CA thinks America would benefit from an ongoing hegemony, but nevertheless prefers the interests of China to those of America he or she cannot be viewed as an American patriot. I think this is the modelminority.com situation I was referring to on the other thread.

The situation is complicated if the CA is not an American citizen, but is instead a resident alien. If the CA is a resident alien he or she has not assumed the obligations I referred to above.

I think the situation is further complicated by whether the CA is an American citizen by birth or by naturalization. Native born Americans have moral obligations to the country, but usually have not sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the US against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. As I recall naturalized American citizens do swear that oath during the naturalization ceremony. What does the oath mean? IMO since at least the end of the American Civil War the oath has been viewed as referring to the constitutionally elected government of the US. Political parties in power come and go, but the regime has remained in place since 1789. Of course I am using the word "regime" in a different manner than many people who use the word to refer to the political party in power at any given time. Does the taking of this oath mean that the naturalized American citizen has a greater obligation to support the constitutionally elected government of the US? I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that this is a moral issue that can't be ignored.

What if the CA holds equal love and loyalty to both China and America? I'm not religious, but I vaguely remember something in the New Testament to the effect that no wo/man can serve two masters faithfully.
Personally, I don't think it is psychologically possible to hold the two nations in equal affection. Ultimately, something has to give.

As I previously wrote, for the most part China's rise is a good thing, but there are negatives incident to the emergence of China. IMO most of those negatives are related to the control the CCP holds over Chinese education, environmental, internal immigration, national security and foreign policies. Some non-Chinese governments. peoples and individuals benefit from China's rise and some are harmed by its rise.

I think the biggest losers are the people of Darfur in Sudan. What is going on in Darfur is a drought related conflict between Arab pastoralists and Black African farmers over land traditionally occupied by the farmers. I wish China would stop selling weapons to the Sudanese government, and would stop blocking the imposition of UN authorized international sanctions against the Sudanese government. But, Sudan has oil. Just like Iraq has oil. I don't understand why Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe has a friend in the Chinese government. Does Zimbabwe have oil or other natural resources? The Chinese government is the only friend of the ruling oligarchy in Myanmar. Natural resources or naval bases? I wish China did not repatriate North Korean refugees back to a dark fate in the DPRK. I worry about the disappearance of Tibetan culture in the face of waves of Han immigrants to Tibet. I never got the chance to see the Three Gorges. Of course the American government is guilty of sins of equal or greater magnitude. All I'm saying is that most governments pursue their national interests as they perceive them. When American hegemony ends it will probably be replaced by Chinese hegemony.

If I can think of anything to add I'll post it later. I'm pretty certain there are flaws in my logic and analysis. I rely on you to point them out to me.

[bluejives]

I think the biggest losers are the people of Darfur in Sudan. What is going on in Darfur is a drought related conflict between Arab pastoralists and Black African farmers over land traditionally occupied by the farmers.

Best to stay the hell out of the business of peoples of other nation. That is the Chinese policy, for now anyway. The US has constantly poked its nose into other's affairs and now we have such things as global Terrorism. Let's let the Chinese model of non-intervention play out further and later judge its merits versus the world foreign policies of that of the US and see which one worked better for the developing world, shall we?

I wish China would stop selling weapons to the Sudanese government, and would stop blocking the imposition of UN authorized international sanctions against the Sudanese government.

Do you also believe that the US should stop providing weapons to Israel?

But, Sudan has oil. Just like Iraq has oil. I don't understand why Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe has a friend in the Chinese government.

Maybe Robert Mugabe is a highly unsavory character. I dont know, But suppose that Robert Mugabe were somehow "eliminated". What is to say that another Robert Mugabe, or worse, wouldnt simply take his place? Poor nations tend to be dictatorships for a reason, because they are poor. I have never met a poor nation that also somehow had a liberal, constitutional democracy in place, with all the attendant institutions that such civil society entails. The path to a more liberal society is for the economy and industry of that nation to grow to a certain point, making it ripe for social changes. Otherwise, you're not really changing the basic underlying foundation which makes that nation lean toward dictatorship in the first place. The post-1945 history of South Korea is a perfect case example of this concept which is often lost on Western moral-ideological hand-wringers.

Does Zimbabwe have oil or other natural resources? The Chinese government is the only friend of the ruling oligarchy in Myanmar. Natural resources or naval bases? I wish China did not repatriate North Korean refugees back to a dark fate in the DPRK. I worry about the disappearance of Tibetan culture in the face of waves of Han immigrants to Tibet. I never got the chance to see the Three Gorges. Of course the American government is guilty of sins of equal or greater magnitude. All I'm saying is that most governments pursue their national interests as they perceive them. When American hegemony ends it will probably be replaced by Chinese hegemony.

Well, like you said, the motives of governments are driven by power and interests. In turn, governments and nations are influenced, moved, or compelled to a certain direction by the power and interests of other, bigger powers. This requires leverage. In order to get leverage in the first place, that means "dealing" with leaders of certain countries whose practices and internal affairs seem unappealing. But premature harping on tree-hugging concerns by China will make these leaders and nations not likely to want to deal with China in the first place. And without that leverage, you cannot influence that nation or their leaders. Bit of a catch-22 there.

[ChÈ]

I think that if the United States ever nukes China back to the Stone Age at the cost of tens of millions of lives (as a short-cut or alternative to good old-fashioned diplomacy or to take China out once and for all as a challenger to its global hegemony), I think that a lot of people of Asian (and non-Asian descent) might begin to question their loyalty to the Roman Empire... er, I mean... the United States.

And so they fucking well should.

[Kaiten]

I think the biggest losers are the people of Darfur in Sudan. What is going on in Darfur is a drought related conflict between Arab pastoralists and Black African farmers over land traditionally occupied by the farmers.

Best to stay the hell out of the business of peoples of other nation. That is the Chinese policy, for now anyway. The US has constantly poked its nose into other's affairs and now we have such things as global Terrorism. Let's let the Chinese model of non-intervention play out further and later judge its merits versus the world foreign policies of that of the US and see which one worked better for the developing world, shall we?

I wish China would stop selling weapons to the Sudanese government, and would stop blocking the imposition of UN authorized international sanctions against the Sudanese government.


Do you also believe that the US should stop providing weapons to Israel?

But, Sudan has oil. Just like Iraq has oil. I don't understand why Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe has a friend in the Chinese government.

Maybe Robert Mugabe is a highly unsavory character. I dont know, But suppose that Robert Mugabe were somehow "eliminated". What is to say that another Robert Mugabe, or worse, wouldnt simply take his place? Poor nations tend to be dictatorships for a reason, because they are poor. I have never met a poor nation that also somehow had a liberal, constitutional democracy in place, with all the attendant institutions that such civil society entails. The path to a more liberal society is for the economy and industry of that nation to grow to a certain point, making it ripe for social changes. Otherwise, you're not really changing the basic underlying foundation which makes that nation lean toward dictatorship in the first place. The post-1945 history of South Korea is a perfect case example of this concept which is often lost on Western moral-ideological hand-wringers.

Does Zimbabwe have oil or other natural resources? The Chinese government is the only friend of the ruling oligarchy in Myanmar. Natural resources or naval bases? I wish China did not repatriate North Korean refugees back to a dark fate in the DPRK. I worry about the disappearance of Tibetan culture in the face of waves of Han immigrants to Tibet. I never got the chance to see the Three Gorges. Of course the American government is guilty of sins of equal or greater magnitude. All I'm saying is that most governments pursue their national interests as they perceive them. When American hegemony ends it will probably be replaced by Chinese hegemony.

Well, like you said, the motives of governments are driven by power and interests. In turn, governments and nations are influenced, moved, or compelled to a certain direction by the power and interests of other, bigger powers. This requires leverage. In order to get leverage in the first place, that means "dealing" with leaders of certain countries whose practices and internal affairs seem unappealing. But premature harping on tree-hugging concerns by China will make these leaders and nations not likely to want to deal with China in the first place. And without that leverage, you cannot influence that nation or their leaders. Bit of a catch-22 there.

I'm in general agreement with your post. Yes, America should stop selling weapons to Israel. Odds are an Israeli-Syrian war in 2007. :( :x

[Kaiten]

I think that if the United States ever nukes China back to the Stone Age at the cost of tens of millions of lives (as a short-cut or alternative to good old-fashioned diplomacy or to take China out once and for all as a challenger to its global hegemony), I think that a lot of people of Asian (and non-Asian descent) might begin to question their loyalty to the Roman Empire... er, I mean... the United States.

And so they fucking well should.

America would be insane to attack China. That doesn't mean it won't happen. There are already powerful interests that seek conflict with China before China could resist the onslaught. I love America; that's why war with China must be avoided IMO. I think it's in America's interest to be a great nation, not a superpower or hegemon.

[wuwei]

I'll bite and answer your original question regarding Chinese nationalism among Chinese Americans, since most of the other posters here are 2nd generations or later.

It is ridiculous to suggest that Chinese people are all "pro-China", and can't function as citizens of another nationstate. Just look at countries like Singapore or the renegade region of Taiwan. These people are all ethnically Chinese, yet they are complete loyal to their own nationstate, and function to make the best decisions for the welfare of their respective country, and often antagonizing PRC in the process.

Simply put, it is because America defines everything along racial and ethnic lines, and Chinese Americans are not considered "true Americans", we are denied equal access and representation to many sectors of the country, including the media, politics. Until Chinese Americans can truly consider themselves to be a part of America, and they feel that they "own" America as their home, and that means having REAL de facto power in America, which we don't right now, you will continue to see some Chinese Americans being more "pro-China" than they are "pro-America".

Also, the CCP =/ China, and pro-China =/ pro CCP. China embodies something far greater than what the CCP can represent. Pro China among overseas Chinese generally means pro the welfare of Chinese everywhere, of course that includes the general region of East Asia, however, pro China =/ pro CCP, because for the longest time, the CCP was holding China down, and many overseas Chinese were very vocal about this. In recent times, the opinions are more split, because some view the CCP as a positive force for Chinese development, so they have supported it for any changes to the exisiting system is likely to cause instability.

The recent perceived surge in Chinese nationalism among Chinese Americans is because America is increasingly viewing China as a threat to American hegemony, and their policies are shifting toward keeping China down and slowing China's development. I think it is natural for countries to compete against each other, and these stances are also held by places like Taiwan, but you don't see the Chinese there (which is everyone) declaring loyalty to China, do you? That's because there is no question that the people that live on Taiwan control the government of Taiwan and the resources of Taiwan. However, the same thing could not be said for the ethnic Chinese that live on America, we don't control shit, we are basically disenfranchised, and have little to no representation in the government. Chinese Americans are second class citizens for the most part, and it should not be a surprise that their allegience sometimes lies outside of America.

[Kaiten]

I'll bite and answer your original question regarding Chinese nationalism among Chinese Americans, since most of the other posters here are 2nd generations or later.

It is ridiculous to suggest that Chinese people are all "pro-China", and can't function as citizens of another nationstate. Just look at countries like Singapore or the renegade region of Taiwan. These people are all ethnically Chinese, yet they are complete loyal to their own nationstate, and function to make the best decisions for the welfare of their respective country, and often antagonizing PRC in the process.

Simply put, it is because America defines everything along racial and ethnic lines, and Chinese Americans are not considered "true Americans", we are denied equal access and representation to many sectors of the country, including the media, politics. Until Chinese Americans can truly consider themselves to be a part of America, and they feel that they "own" America as their home, and that means having REAL de facto power in America, which we don't right now, you will continue to see some Chinese Americans being more "pro-China" than they are "pro-America".

Also, the CCP =/ China, and pro-China =/ pro CCP. China embodies something far greater than what the CCP can represent. Pro China among overseas Chinese generally means pro the welfare of Chinese everywhere, of course that includes the general region of East Asia, however, pro China =/ pro CCP, because for the longest time, the CCP was holding China down, and many overseas Chinese were very vocal about this. In recent times, the opinions are more split, because some view the CCP as a positive force for Chinese development, so they have supported it for any changes to the exisiting system is likely to cause instability.

The recent perceived surge in Chinese nationalism among Chinese Americans is because America is increasingly viewing China as a threat to American hegemony, and their policies are shifting toward keeping China down and slowing China's development. I think it is natural for countries to compete against each other, and these stances are also held by places like Taiwan, but you don't see the Chinese there (which is everyone) declaring loyalty to China, do you? That's because there is no question that the people that live on Taiwan control the government of Taiwan and the resources of Taiwan. However, the same thing could not be said for the ethnic Chinese that live on America, we don't control shit, we are basically disenfranchised, and have little to no representation in the government. Chinese Americans are second class citizens for the most part, and it should not be a surprise that their allegience sometimes lies outside of America.

IMO, this is the best post so far on the subject of CN among CAs.

[howstrange]

why worry about chinese nationalism amongst Chinese Americans? They probably represent .0001% of the CA population.

[Kaiten]

why worry about chinese nationalism amongst Chinese Americans? They probably represent .0001% of the CA population.

I guess that's true, but it caught me by surprise. So I wanted to understand it.

[Catatonic]

why worry about chinese nationalism amongst Chinese Americans? They probably represent .0001% of the CA population.

I guess that's true, but it caught me by surprise. So I wanted to understand it.

How is it different from the .001% of white Americans who are either beholden to a Fourth Reich or want to overthrow the US govt. or uber-nationalists of any other nationality?

And frankly, your question regarding this issue...


I am also interested in the phenomenon of Chinese nationalism being expressed by American citizens of Asian ancestry who have never been to Asia. Frankly, I don't understand it.


is poorly worded - since us Americans of Asian ancestry, who are not of Chinese ancestry, basically have ZERO chance of being a Chinese nationalist, and wouldn't this question be better served on a Chinese-American website (or better yet, a Chinese Nationalist website)?



IMO, this is the best post so far on the subject of CN among CAs.

That's b/c wuwei is a Chinese nationalist.

The few Chinese nationalists that have popped up here, from time to time, eventually lose interest after we plow huge holes through their ideology and "interpretation" of history.

[Kaiten]

why worry about chinese nationalism amongst Chinese Americans? They probably represent .0001% of the CA population.

I guess that's true, but it caught me by surprise. So I wanted to understand it.

How is it different from the .001% of white Americans who are either beholden to a Fourth Reich or want to overthrow the US govt. or uber-nationalists of any other nationality?

And frankly, your question regarding this issue...


I am also interested in the phenomenon of Chinese nationalism being expressed by American citizens of Asian ancestry who have never been to Asia. Frankly, I don't understand it.


is poorly worded - since us Americans of Asian ancestry, who are not of Chinese ancestry, basically have ZERO chance of being a Chinese nationalist, and wouldn't this question be better served on a Chinese-American website (or better yet, a Chinese Nationalist website)?



IMO, this is the best post so far on the subject of CN among CAs.

That's b/c wuwei is a Chinese nationalist.

The few Chinese nationalists that have popped up here, from time to time, eventually lose interest after we plow huge holes through their ideology and "interpretation" of history.

First, both Americans who are Chinese Nationalists (CN) and Americans who are primarily loyal to another nation subordinate any sense of American patriotism to their primary love for another land. In that sense there is no difference. Fourth Reichers are perforce racists. I'm not suggesting CNs are necessarily racist.

Second, you feel my question is poorly worded. :lol: Poor syntax or another element of grammar? Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. My reference to some AAs being CNs was intentional. I came to the conclusion that some non-Chinese heritage AAs were CNs, or at least expressed CN sentiments, from visiting another well known AA website.

Third, you feel I should have raised the question on a Chinese-American website or a CN website. On the contrary, I can think of no better forum on which to raise this, or any other serious AA issue, than f44.

Fourth, I don't know wuwei, but his post was clearly written, and did directly respond to my original question.

[lycheng]

Kaiten,

Thanks for your detailed reply. I'd like to address your points at another time as it is getting late right now. Suffice to say, I think we agree more than we disagree.

More later.

lycheng

[Catatonic]

First, both Americans who are Chinese Nationalists (CN) and Americans who are primarily loyal to another nation subordinate any sense of American patriotism to their primary love for another land. In that sense there is no difference. Fourth Reichers are perforce racists. I'm not suggesting CNs are necessarily racist.

Fourth Reichers also don't like caucasians who don't fit into their little mold of what they deem as superior beings - i.e. - non Aryan caucasians, Jews, etc.

CNs are very much from the same cloth. They not only usually despise non-Asians, they also tend to hold contempt for Asians who aren't Chinese (and by "Chinese" - I'm talking Han Chinese).


Second, you feel my question is poorly worded. :lol: Poor syntax or another element of grammar? Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. My reference to some AAs being CNs was intentional. I came to the conclusion that some non-Chinese heritage AAs were CNs, or at least expressed CN sentiments, from visiting another well known AA website.

Once again, you are picking "needles from a haystack."

Pretty much all Asian-Ams of non-Chinese heritage (not to mention most Chinese-Ams as well) can't stand CNs and what they stand for.

And the few non-Chinese heritage AAs you have come across, who have expressed those "sentiments", likely didn't swear fealty to China, but rather expressed sentiments about being disaffected with their lot here (which doesn't mean that they are CNs).

Plus, your reference wasn't "some" (AAs) as you attest.


I am also interested in the phenomenon of Chinese nationalism being expressed by American citizens of Asian ancestry who have never been to Asia. Frankly, I don't understand it.

There is no "some" anywhere in your statement and as phrased, it is a rather a broad indictment of Asian-Ams.

Third, you feel I should have raised the question on a Chinese-American website or a CN website. On the contrary, I can think of no better forum on which to raise this, or any other serious AA issue, than f44.

That's very illogical. Since the few CNs that have appeared here (from time to time) have been run off - why would we (not being CNs) know more about CNs than CNs themselves?

Wouldn't it be much better to get the answers directly from "the horses mouth"?

Plus, despite all your proclamations about "understanding the anger of young AAs" (which you CLEARLY DON"T - since most AAs aren't angry and instead are rather quite passive about the whole matter; and the vast majority of those who are "angry" don't hate whites - we just don't like the uneven playing field) - you contribute to the very same problem (that you proclaim to understand) by focusing on a very tiny minority of nutty uber-nationalists and expect us AAs to explain it to you (this is no different than the typical "yellow menace" hysteria that has been happening since the 1800s).

Instead of focusing on a few nuts - why don't you take it upon yourself to understand why we are so "angry" and learn about where Asian-Ams face bias and prejudice?


Fourth, I don't know wuwei, but his post was clearly written, and did directly respond to my original question.

And how does this take away from the fact that he is a CN?

[Kaiten]

Plus, your reference wasn't "some" (AAs) as you attest.


I am also interested in the phenomenon of Chinese nationalism being expressed by American citizens of Asian ancestry who have never been to Asia. Frankly, I don't understand it.

There is no "some" anywhere in your statement and as phrased, it is a rather a broad indictment of Asian-Ams.

Third, you feel I should have raised the question on a Chinese-American website or a CN website. On the contrary, I can think of no better forum on which to raise this, or any other serious AA issue, than f44.

That's very illogical. Since the few CNs that have appeared here (from time to time) have been run off - why would we (not being CNs) know more about CNs than CNs themselves?
Wouldn't it be much better to get the answers directly from "the horses mouth"?

Plus, despite all your proclamations about "understanding the anger of young AAs" (which you CLEARLY DON"T - since most AAs aren't angry and instead are rather quite passive about the whole matter; and the vast majority of those who are "angry" don't hate whites - we just don't like the uneven playing field) - you contribute to the very same problem (that you proclaim to understand) by focusing on a very tiny minority of nutty uber-nationalists and expect us AAs to explain it to you (this is no different than the typical "yellow menace" hysteria that has been happening since the 1800s).

Instead of focusing on a few nuts - why don't you take it upon yourself to understand why we are so "angry" and learn about where Asian-Ams face bias and prejudice?


Fourth, I don't know wuwei, but his post was clearly written, and did directly respond to my original question.

And how does this take away from the fact that he is a CN?

I should have used the word "some" when referring to CN being expressed by a number of AA. It was not my intention to paint all AA with a broad brush.

You refer to wuwei as a CN. Then you state or imply that all CNs appearing on f44 have been run off. Since wuwei has not been run off there are CNs on f44. There may be more. There are a number of f44 members who are also mm members. Some of them may hold CN views.

There seems to be a diversity of opinion on f44. That diversity holds a better prospect of getting a more balanced discussion of the CN phenomenon. I suspect that I would not receive a warm welcome at a CN forum. I don't think many members of such a board could get past my nationality or race. Also, the rules of engagement at f44 increase the likelihood of a discussion happening in the first place.

Could you refer me to some Chinese-American boards where the CN issue could be discussed without rancor? Thanks.

You suggest I take it upon myself to learn about the reasons some AAs are so angry. Fair enough. I'll try. As I said, I may be able to understand some things in an intellectual sense, but it is not possible for me to understand the depth of the emotions involved because of my very different life experiences.

[Catatonic]

I should have used the word "some" when referring to CN being expressed by a number of AA. It was not my intention to paint all AA with a broad brush.

This is a pretty big oversight, considering that you claim to understand (the source of) AA ìanger" (painting AAs with a broad brush, and in particular, as untrusty foreigners, has been a long-standing problem).


You refer to wuwei as a CN. Then you state or imply that all CNs appearing on f44 have been run off. Since wuwei has not been run off there are CNs on f44. There may be more. There are a number of f44 members who are also mm members. Some of them may hold CN views.

There have been like TWO CNs prior to ww, and ww really doesnít post here much (besides, ww spent much of his formative years in China ñ so itís understandable that he would be a CN).

Iím pretty familiar with the views of the regular posters here and none have shown any inclination of being a CN.

Besides, even if there were a few ñ this site, nevertheless, wouldnít be the best source of an answer for your question - since there are probably numerous reasons why a certain portion of people of Chinese ethnicity hold CN views (and even their CN views differ). In order to get a reliable, comprehensive answer ñ you need to get answer from more than one or a few CNs.



There seems to be a diversity of opinion on f44. That diversity holds a better prospect of getting a more balanced discussion of the CN phenomenon. I suspect that I would not receive a warm welcome at a CN forum. I don't think many members of such a board could get past my nationality or race. Also, the rules of engagement at f44 increase the likelihood of a discussion happening in the first place.

Since weíre not CNs (with the exception of one infrequent poster) ñ any discussion of the reasons why a person or people are CNs is nothing but speculation on our part.


Could you refer me to some Chinese-American boards where the CN issue could be discussed without rancor? Thanks.

I donít really frequent Chinese-Am boards or CN boards since Iím neither. Iím sure a google search will do the trick (I donít know about the w/o rancor part, but if you ask politely, Iím sure there are some CNs who would be glad to educate you. Iím not sure why this is such a topic of interest for you ñ since the vast majority of AAs arenít CNs and most of us think they are nothing like a bunch of kooks ñ just like all uber-nationalists.)


You suggest I take it upon myself to learn about the reasons some AAs are so angry. Fair enough. I'll try. As I said, I may be able to understand some things in an intellectual sense, but it is not possible for me to understand the depth of the emotions involved because of my very different life experiences.

Forget emotions - intellect is all that is necessary since there are studies/statistics which show that AAs face an UNEVEN PLAYING FIELD when it comes to college admissions, promotions to executive positions/income, positive media portrayals, etc.

Btw, I probably have had a very different life experience from many of these "angry" AAs - but that hasn't stopped me from looking at this issue from an academic viewpoint and understanding the merits of the "anger."

[Kaiten]

Cat,

Thanks for all your heartfelt advice. I appreciate the time and effort you've devoted to pointing me in the right direction.

[Catatonic]

Cat,

Thanks for all your heartfelt advice. I appreciate the time and effort you've devoted to pointing me in the right direction.

Kait -

No problem.