"I Ain't Got No Quarrel..."

[nskripchun]

I like this t-shirt.

http://www.digitalgravel.com/itemdetails.cfm?prod=7919&cat=63&vndr=1103

[Beast]

Dope, but it would be better with,"No Viet Cong ever called me nigger".

BTW, I was in the Queen Anne and downtown area last weekend. Maybe next time I'll holla next when I'm out that way.

[badwill]

There is nothing good about the Viet Cong. It's great that they defeated the French and liberated the Vietnamese from colonialism, but they ravaged the south, implemented bad land reform, and didn't have the foresight to know that isolationism and the communist system is self defeating.

[seoulbrotherno1]

Come on Badwill, it's not as if Communism is predestined to failure. Mismanagement, economic warfare, sanctions, embargoes, an arms race, not to mention mass destruction by America (the scale of destruction that America rained on the Vietnamese people during the war is not even comparable to what the Viet Cong did during the war) all had a negative effect on the Vietnamese economy. If I recall correctly, it was American bombers that destroyed multiple dams, flooding Vietnam, destroying thousands of acres of ricefields and deliberately causing starvation to millions of civilians.

Saying that there is nothing good about the Viet Cong like saying Malcolm X sucks because institutionalized racism still exists. Fighting the French and liberating Vietnam is a BIG DEAL. It motivated countless of oppressed colonies to take up their own struggle for liberation.

It wasn't like Ho Chi Minh didn't petition the US for aid (he naively thought that the US would support Vietnam's bid for freedom because of US rhetoric about "man's inalieable right to self-determination, freedom, etc.") Ho Chi Minh attended the Treaty of Versailles in a rented suit, begging the Western power to hear about the plight of the Vietnamese under the French. At that time, the only world power with any kind of interest in assisting national liberation movements was the Communist Party.

In that sense, I can't blame either Ho Chi Minh or the Viet Cong for the choices they made. I do agree that they should be accountable for their own mismanagement after liberation, but I don't think that it means that their other accomplishments should be trivialized.

In the end, I think that the Viet Cong were clearly a much better choice than either the French or the American puppets in Saigon.

sb1

[badwill]

SB,

I agreed with what you said. There is nothing good about the Americans either. The US was there for their own self-interest and pulled out when the heat got too hot back home. Just like what is probably going to happen in the Iraq war.

But I don't know if in the end, the Viet Cong was a better choice for the South. I know the puppet Catholic President installed by the US was a terrible leader, but it's well known that the South enjoys a great amount of prosperity before the war and the north was just the opposite. After the liberation, the communist took control over all the industry in the South. Owners became worker. Those who had any ties with the US were relegated to the bottom of the cation list. Management and land reform were terrible. The people in the south suffered and the north benefited. Being Vietnamese, I have my reserve against the Viet Cong.

What is your thought on North and South Korean? South Korean enjoys the third highest GDP per capital in Asia. Much of it is attributed to economic support South Korea has from the West. What if the North won?

[tonic]

i'm a closet Ho Chi Minh fan. From what little I know of him from bits of his bio, it seemed his only purpose in life was to rid Vietnam of foreign influence.

Well, he did it. He helped his people get rid of the French, U.S. and even the Chinese. Not too shabby.

[seoulbrotherno1]

Badwill,

You know, I have always been a bit jealous of the Vietnamese because they actually won their war. Yeah, I know that it is both naive and idealistic, especially given the fact that the Vietnamese suffered after being victorious.

In South Corea we ended up with multiple US-puppet regimes, with various petty dictators squeezing the blood out of the populace in order to fuel their industrial machines. Make no mistake about it, South Corean suffered from awful economic conditions for decades after the war. US-backed dictators instituted all kinds of "reforms" which basically destroyed the rural economy and drove people (especially young women) into waiting sweatshops and factories.

Japanese collaborators went unpunished. They held onto their ill-gotten gains and they prospered by becoming lapdogs to America. Only now are people finally learning the truth about this issue, but the pillars of the South Corean economy are founded on blood-money.

The original US plan for South Corea was for the country to be a source of "raw materials" and labor for Japan (ironically it was the same as Japan's plan for Corea during the occupation). Pak Jung Hee implemented his own strategy for economic development, going against all kinds of pressures from the US. Although US capital did pour in (especially because of the Corean role in the Vietnam War), you could say that South Corea flourished in spite of the US, not because of it.

North Corea, on the other hand, was doing well when it was backed by a strong communist bloc. Their GDP was exponentially higher than the South's for decades after the war. They rebuilt their society more quickly, and their land reforms were largely successful. The North, despite being a cold climate, had unprecedented success with farming. The actually acheived 100% food self-sufficiency in the 80's and that was with most of their populace working in factories.

However, similar to the case in Vietnam, mismanagement, military over-spending, antiquated machinery, poor decisions, and the world's longest illegal economic embargo all messed up North Corea (not to mention the collapse of the Eastern Bloc).

I think that one thing which happens in colonial situations is that a small, but extremely prosperous middle class gets created and this is said to be reflective of society at large. In fact, it is a small privileged few who reap the "benefits" of colonialization, while the major profits get sent away to Europe or America.

At the same time, industries in the colonies do benefit from the technology and economic input from the colonizers, so I think that it makes sense that these structures would be sturdier, as compared to post-liberation efforts in almost every "liberated" country, save North Corea.

It is difficult to say which situation is better, and I don't want to insult Viet friends here by saying they have it better than Coreans. However, "democracy" definitely isn't all that it was cracked up to be -especially under various US-backed military dictatorships. I just try to appreciate Vietnamese successes (getting the French and US out) and failures (poor economy, unstable development, etc) as much as I can.

sb1

[badwill]

One thing I have to give to the Viet Minh is those guys know how to fight.

[Seraph]

"I Ain't Got No Quarrel With The VietCong...
No VietCong Ever Called Me Nigger"

There's more from Muhammed Ali:

"Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No Iím not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality. If I thought the war was going to bring freedom and equality to 22 million of my people they wouldnít have to draft me, Iíd join tomorrow. I have nothing to lose by standing up for my beliefs. So Iíll go to jail, so what? Weíve been in jail for 400 years. "

It's a shame so many foreign-raised Asians tend to be prejudiced against African-Americans and try and elevate themselves as the highest class minority.

[Beast]

i'm a closet Ho Chi Minh fan. From what little I know of him from bits of his bio, it seemed his only purpose in life was to rid Vietnam of foreign influence.

Well, he did it. He helped his people get rid of the French, U.S. and even the Chinese. Not too shabby.

^Don't forget the Japanese too. I've read his bio and that of Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap. Awesome.

[MATHABA]

while in NYC i learned that Ho Chi Minh once lived there, worked in Chinatown and lived in Harlem. apparently the man traveled a lot before becoming a leader.

[randomblue]

while in NYC i learned that Ho Chi Minh once lived there, worked in Chinatown and lived in Harlem. apparently the man traveled a lot before becoming a leader.

Yes, he travelled to foreign lands with the purpose that is to learn so that he could return and help the Vietnamese people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but rom what I've read, he was also in Paris, and also worked as a cook on a ship.

[xian]

This is an interesting discussion.

I've heard all the reactionary justifications for the puppet regimes that we established, but here's my raw opinion on the matter:

It doesn't fucking matter whether communism was "good" or "bad" or "utterly fucking doom for Vietnam (or anywhere else).

You can't go around messing with democratic elections in sovereign states and then call it "pro-democratic action".

If the American people want to elect a neo-fascist and oil lobby buddy, it's not France's job to establish an alternate government in Massachusetts.

If, on the other hand, that crazy guy LOSES the election and then uses his family's power and connection on the high court to assume power, then I'm all for Coup.