National Identities

[Dialectic]

I want to bring up the notion of differentiated vs. undifferentiated concepts of identity.

The meaning is very simple: some forms of national/ ethnic identity can't be separated from race and religion, and some can.

For example, my former housemate is of East Indian descent and comes from a Shia Ismaili Muslim family. He has no Muslim beliefs or behaviors, and is pretty much not religious. Yet he self-identifies as Muslim, simply because he is "Muslim" by blood.

Example 2: No Black, Indian, or White man can ever be Japanese.

Example 3: No Black, Indian, or Asian man can ever be Italian.

Example 4: Blacks, Whites, Asians, Browns, what have you, can be American (at least among most circles and in the legislation, which is key).

So what's going on here?

In North America, race, culture, religion, and nationality have been largely differentiated from one another. Your status in one category does not automatically define your status in the others (there are of course issues of who is more or less American, but that's another discussion). In most other countries in the world, these notions are fused, or undifferentiated, which can lead to major problems when they come into contact with American or Canadian culture.

[Infectious]

I want to bring up the notion of differentiated vs. undifferentiated concepts of identity.

The meaning is very simple: some forms of national/ ethnic identity can't be separated from race and religion, and some can.

For example, my former housemate is of East Indian descent and comes from a Shia Ismaili Muslim family. He has no Muslim beliefs or behaviors, and is pretty much not religious. Yet he self-identifies as Muslim, simply because he is "Muslim" by blood.

Example 2: No Black, Indian, or White man can ever be Japanese.

Example 3: No Black, Indian, or Asian man can ever be Italian.

Example 4: Blacks, Whites, Asians, Browns, what have you, can be American (at least among most circles and in the legislation, which is key).

So what's going on here?

In North America, race, culture, religion, and nationality have been largely differentiated from one another. Your status in one category does not automatically define your status in the others (there are of course issues of who is more or less American, but that's another discussion). In most other countries in the world, these notions are fused, or undifferentiated, which can lead to major problems when they come into contact with American or Canadian culture.

Context matters too. For example, Christopher Doyle is considered Chinese by Chinese people, but white (Australian) to most other parts of the world.

Likewise, in certain circles, you and I would not be considered Canadian (remember when you talked about the trip to Japan?).

[maogirl]

Context matters too. For example, Christopher Doyle is considered Chinese by Chinese people, but white (Australian) to most other parts of the world.

sorry, just a minor comment. i actually don't know if other people do think doyle is chinese. i actually live near doyle and when he's in town, he goes drinking at a bar nearby and people refer to him as the drunken neighbourhood gweilo.

as for identity, i was reading a book on overseas chinese in southeast asia and the writer (who is singaporean) wrote about the difference between assimilation and acculturalation and how it impacts identity.

he wrote about this group of ethnic chinese in malaysia who settled in the early 1800s who no longer speak chinese, etc. but consider themselves first and foremost chinese, and not at all malaysian. and then you have the 2nd/3rd generation of ethnic chinese who still speak chinese among themselves and practise chinese traditions but consider themselves malaysian.

pretty interesting stuff. and also about how identity/identification is fluid with overseas chinese, and particularly in thailand where there has been an active programme of forced assimilation. in thailand, you can be legally considered "thai" by the 3rd generation if the 1st generation has been naturalized.

the most intruiging part for me was the idea of a transnational overseas chinese ethnic identity. he didn't explore it in much detail since the book is supposed to be more of an overview/survey, but it's a great fucking concept.

ps there was a small chapter on you guys, too

[awong]

pretty interesting stuff. and also about how identity/identification is fluid with overseas chinese, and particularly in thailand where there has been an active programme of forced assimilation. in thailand, you can be legally considered "thai" by the 3rd generation if the 1st generation has been naturalized.


some girl at school I know usually says thai yet is full Chinese, and she doesnt retain any of the chinese stuff, even has a thai last name. Her grandparents on her fathers side came from China and her mothers side were there longer than three generations. I asked about the last name part, but she doesnt know her chinese last name, did many chinese have to change their last names?

[maogirl]

some girl at school I know usually says thai yet is full Chinese, and she doesnt retain any of the chinese stuff, even has a thai last name. Her grandparents on her fathers side came from China and her mothers side were there longer than three generations. I asked about the last name part, but she doesnt know her chinese last name, did many chinese have to change their last names?

yeah, most chinese thais don't retain their original surnames according to the book. it's a bit similar in indonesia, but a much lesser extent in the other southeast asian countries. my last name is slightly "filipinized" as well.

i have a friend similar to yours...i find it so fascinating because when i was growing up, we had a really distinct chinese upbringing that was separate but intertwined (i guess we were acculturated according to the book, not assimilated) with filipino culture, but i'm as filipino as i am chinese, but i never really thought about it, you know?

[MATHABA]

he wrote about this group of ethnic chinese in malaysia who settled in the early 1800s who no longer speak chinese, etc. but consider themselves first and foremost chinese, and not at all malaysian. and then you have the 2nd/3rd generation of ethnic chinese who still speak chinese among themselves and practise chinese traditions but consider themselves malaysian.

pretty interesting stuff. and also about how identity/identification is fluid with overseas chinese, and particularly in thailand where there has been an active programme of forced assimilation. in thailand, you can be legally considered "thai" by the 3rd generation if the 1st generation has been naturalized.

the most intruiging part for me was the idea of a transnational overseas chinese ethnic identity. he didn't explore it in much detail since the book is supposed to be more of an overview/survey, but it's a great fucking concept.

ps there was a small chapter on you guys, too
what did the book say about us?
I notice some ethnic Chinese in the U.S. who come from Vietnam will still identify as Chinese but will mostly speak Vietnamese and live in the Vietnamese communities. They can speak Chinese still but sometimes their kids only know Vietnamese and English. But if you call them Vietnamese they will correct you and say no, I am Chinese.
When people ask my dad where he is from he says Malaysia, he considers himself a Chinese Malaysian. But I think this is not unusual because there are so many minorities in Malaysia. He can speak Malay, Chinese, English.

[Infectious]

Context matters too. For example, Christopher Doyle is considered Chinese by Chinese people, but white (Australian) to most other parts of the world.

sorry, just a minor comment. i actually don't know if other people do think doyle is chinese. i actually live near doyle and when he's in town, he goes drinking at a bar nearby and people refer to him as the drunken neighbourhood gweilo.

Fair enough. The whole "treating him like a Chinese" thing was from an interview, so I don't know how much truth is in there. But he is a bloody alcoholic.

[maogirl]

what did the book say about us?

er, i forgot because i wasn't really interested. :P i'll read it again and post it up tomorrow. i think it was a contrast type thing between assimilation and acculturalation.


I notice some ethnic Chinese in the U.S. who come from Vietnam will still identify as Chinese but will mostly speak Vietnamese and live in the Vietnamese communities. They can speak Chinese still but sometimes their kids only know Vietnamese and English. But if you call them Vietnamese they will correct you and say no, I am Chinese.
When people ask my dad where he is from he says Malaysia, he considers himself a Chinese Malaysian. But I think this is not unusual because there are so many minorities in Malaysia. He can speak Malay, Chinese, English.

does your dad speak hokkien? i'm assuming he does, or maybe canto or teo cheow? ooh, call him a cheebye, if he smacks you, then he speaks hokkien.

i'm really fascinated by southeast asian ethnic chinese, i just discovered recently there are a lot of chinese indos in hk. i met this guy at a laundry and the next time we saw each other, he had his gf with him (they are both chindos) and we were all just staring at each other like, "you exist!" and comparing notes on what it was like growing up, etc.

we all speak this weird hokkien/SEA language pidgin/patois, so interesting. i generally feel much closer to SEA ethnic chinese than to taiwanese or hk people or PRC.



Fair enough. The whole "treating him like a Chinese" thing was from an interview, so I don't know how much truth is in there. But he is a bloody alcoholic.


oh, i see. well, if it makes him feel happy to think that way...

[Infectious]

does your dad speak hokkien? i'm assuming he does, or maybe canto or teo cheow? ooh, call him a cheebye, if he smacks you, then he speaks hokkien.

Heh, I know what that means :P my parents love to use it. Almost every time they do though, it's prefaced with "chou".

we all speak this weird hokkien/SEA language pidgin/patois, so interesting. i generally feel much closer to SEA ethnic chinese than to taiwanese or hk people or PRC.

I hang out with lots of Taiwanese more often than not even though much of my extended family is SEA Chinese. For me that has to do with my school (most of the Chinese living in the city where my school is are Taiwanese.)


Fair enough. The whole "treating him like a Chinese" thing was from an interview, so I don't know how much truth is in there. But he is a bloody alcoholic.

oh, i see. well, if it makes him feel happy to think that way...

[MATHABA]

what did the book say about us?

er, i forgot because i wasn't really interested. :P i'll read it again and post it up tomorrow. i think it was a contrast type thing between assimilation and acculturalation.


I notice some ethnic Chinese in the U.S. who come from Vietnam will still identify as Chinese but will mostly speak Vietnamese and live in the Vietnamese communities. They can speak Chinese still but sometimes their kids only know Vietnamese and English. But if you call them Vietnamese they will correct you and say no, I am Chinese.
When people ask my dad where he is from he says Malaysia, he considers himself a Chinese Malaysian. But I think this is not unusual because there are so many minorities in Malaysia. He can speak Malay, Chinese, English.

does your dad speak hokkien? i'm assuming he does, or maybe canto or teo cheow? ooh, call him a cheebye, if he smacks you, then he speaks hokkien.

i'm really fascinated by southeast asian ethnic chinese, i just discovered recently there are a lot of chinese indos in hk. i met this guy at a laundry and the next time we saw each other, he had his gf with him (they are both chindos) and we were all just staring at each other like, "you exist!" and comparing notes on what it was like growing up, etc.

we all speak this weird hokkien/SEA language pidgin/patois, so interesting. i generally feel much closer to SEA ethnic chinese than to taiwanese or hk people or PRC.

yes he speaks hokkien and also some cantonese. the laundry is an interesting place to meet people. my nearest laundry is usually full of construction workers and vagrants. sometimes they have good stories.
ive met a few Chinese indos here in the U.S. and they arent immediately obvious because they all had indo names like Hadiwinata or something. in the case of Chinese Malaysians and Indos their Chinese names can go through more than one transliteration so this can kind of mutilate and make it not immediately recognizable.
im interested in SEA pidgin cuz when i hung out with my cousins there as a kid everything was so blur even though they speak english.

[ZhuBaJie]

Context matters too. For example, Christopher Doyle is considered Chinese by Chinese people, but white (Australian) to most other parts of the world.

Likewise, in certain circles, you and I would not be considered Canadian (remember when you talked about the trip to Japan?).

no no. they don't consider him Chinese. but some may treat him as if he were Chinese. i know Brits that were raised in HK and speak Cantonese that get this treatment.

what that amounts to is that the locals don't wonder if this gweilo would like dimsum, or if he would know which minibus to take, etc etc.

i know a Brit that was raised in HK that listens to Alan Tam and gets herbal drinks at those Chinese herbal drink places. at dimsum he'll say he doesn't want to eat a particular dish because it's 熱氣 (yit hei). i mean, shit, he's a HKer. but people still see that he's a gweilo.

[ZhuBaJie]

couple of good books on Overseas Chinese:

Sons of the Yellow Emperor by Lynn Pan
this is an easy read for the casual reader.

Last Half Century of Overseas Chinese, edited by Elizabeth Sinn.
this is very academic and it's a collection of papers (some in English and some in Chinese) that were presented at a conference held at HKU (i think) about Overseas Chinese. it concentrates on the dyaspora after WW2. scholars around the world were invited to talk. it talks about a wide range of topics and spends alot of time on the 華僑 (hua qiao) identity. you have to be pretty interested in the subject to be able to read through all the papers. they were written for academia by academics, not written for some person sitting down at night trying to enjoy some light reading.

and here's a website that counts the Overseas Chinese population:
http://www.library.ohiou.edu/subjects/shao/databases_popdis.htm

it doesn't include the Greater China Area - meaning it doesn't count the people in Taiwan, HK, and Macau.

at present, there are about 34 million Overseas Chinese globally. you really have to wonder what the fuck are 12 Chinese people doing living in Lebanon.

[maogirl]

Heh, I know what that means :P my parents love to use it. Almost every time they do though, it's prefaced with "chou".

HAHA! are you serious? my parents tried their best not to curse in front of us, but i learned everything from my grandparents, who used to call each other lanchiao and cheebye, etc.


I hang out with lots of Taiwanese more often than not even though much of my extended family is SEA Chinese. For me that has to do with my school (most of the Chinese living in the city where my school is are Taiwanese.)

what kind of SEA chinese are you? you know, when i lived in toronto, i hung out with the cantos because the taiwanese kids rejected me for being from nan tou and for driving the wrong kind of luxury car. :P


ive met a few Chinese indos here in the U.S. and they arent immediately obvious because they all had indo names like Hadiwinata or something. in the case of Chinese Malaysians and Indos their Chinese names can go through more than one transliteration so this can kind of mutilate and make it not immediately recognizable.

yeah, same with the philippines. although what usually happens is that people use their full hokkien names as their last names like cory aquino's family, the cojuangcos.

there a lot of chindos here in hk because of the 1998 riots, a lot of them just settled here.


im interested in SEA pidgin cuz when i hung out with my cousins there as a kid everything was so blur even though they speak english.

ah, got interest in corright way to talk singlish issit?

i might be able to help you out there...(by the way, as i'm typing this, i'm watching a malaysian chef make chili mayonnaise sauce and he's calling the mayo "meownis" -- SOOO ADORABLE!!!!)


okay, here are some relevant/interesting excerpts. i'll just note that this is a survey/overview that is trying to be as neutral in tone as possible.

acculturation vs assimilation:


There are Chinese who have a long history of settlement and there are new immigrants. There are foreign-born Chiense and there are local-born Chinese, and there are those who are highly localized and those who see themselves as "pure" Chinese, being teh least acculturated. There are different attitudes among them, those who claim to be "pure" despising those who have lost their Chinese mother tongue....

Lest one should confuse acculturation with assimilation, it should be pointed out that wherease the "pure" Chinese generally stress their communal identity, the Peranakan-type do not necessarily identify fully with the larger society....

Acculturation, of course, does affect the means of displaying identity. Because of the loss of the Chinese language, the Baba emphasize certain Chinese traditions to express their Chinese cultural identity....Although they may not read Chinese, many Babas still display Chinese characters in their house....The "pure" Chinese, in contrast, emphasize literacy in the Chinese language and even Chinese education.

If we take the case of the Chinese in the US, as far as identification is concerned, there are Chinese Americans who choose to be more ethnic Chinese than American. There are also those who seek to be more American than Chinese. There are even some who try not to be Chinese at all....individuals who grow up in dense ethnic neighbourhoods are more likely to retain their ethnic identity....Moreover, minority individuals who experience discrimination may reject identification with the dominant group, and even highly acculturated types who have been discriminated against may be led to adhere more closely to their communal identity. In contrast, easy upward mobility within the larger society not only encourages acculturation of minority individuals but also encourages assimilation where possible. This is especially so if intermarriage can take place easily.

The analysis shows that it is unnecessary and in fact impractical (and even immoral) to force the minority to acculturate or assimilate. Ideally, acculturation should be left to the natural process of people adjusting to the dominant culture without state intervention, except where it is necessary to have a common language and to promote it through education as in Malaysia.

then there's a short paragraph on ien ang, who i loathe. she's a chinese indo and moved ot holland and she wrote this horrific article on how she never wanted to be chinese or treated as chinese.


On the whole, individuals negotiate their identities, and their localization experience forms an important part of that negotiation. The more localized they are, the more they have to negotiate their identity. "Who am I?" and "To be or not to be Chinese" are often questions asked by such highly localized Chinese....However, most people of Chinese descent who are not products of intermarriage have remained Chinese. It is in situations of discrimination or when being Chinese is a stigma that there may be individuals who choose to reject their Chiense identity, whereas others eventually learn to accept their Chinese status and not feel ashamed of it. There are many accounts in North America about first-generation local-born Chinese American or Canadian students going through a stage of trying to reject their C hinese and minority status in order to be accepted as equal with the white majority. But as they grow up, they learn to accept their Americanized or Canadianized (ie localized) Chinese status.

Indeed it is essential that minorities feel proud of their own identities, otherwise, there will be an identity crisis. This is so, too, for the highly localized Chinese. If they feel ashamed of their acculturated Chinese identity, they will have an inferiority complex in relation to the so-called "pure" Chinese. Individuals will feel the need to mask or leave that status or try to merge with the mainstream Chinese or even try not to be a Chinese, by identifying with the larger national identity. But it is not always possible to do so. Some Chinese American exchange students talked to me about their experience in Hong Kong. They said that in the US they had taken their Chinese American identity for granted, but their encounter with Chinese people and culture in Hong Kong made them feel culturally not Chinese enough or so they were told.

and i really like this part


It is often assumed that practising more Chinese culture (such as being literate in Chinese) means being less integrated into the national society. It is also assumed that the greater the Chinese are acculturated by local communities, the more they are integrated into the national society....

It is wrong to assume that the Chinese -educated and those who campaign for Chinese education in Malaysia are less Malaysian...they identify with Malaysia and will feel quite offended if their loyalty to the country is questioned. If they express greater communal sentiment today, this is because they have identified fully (rather than less) with Malaysia, and therefore expect equality with the dominant ethnic group.

i find the bolded text really provocative and interesting. it really makes me think about the filipino chinese because we try as much as possible not to draw attention to ourselves (aside from the expensive cars and houses, sigh).


mods...should this thread be split? it's turning into a chinese diaspora thread, i think...

[JadeDragon]

ah, got interest in corright way to talk singlish issit?

Aiyah, where got corright way to speak Singlish kan? Everything all belacan wan. :P

If they express greater communal sentiment today, this is because they have identified fully (rather than less) with Malaysia, and therefore expect equality with the dominant ethnic group.

Part of this communal sentiment in Malaysia also has been heavily influenced by the government campaigns to preserve the harmony of the state, especially after that rather acrimonious split with Singapore in 1965, like Wawasan (Vision) 2020. But it's really difficult to say whether this identification has been truly successful, because there are still major ethnic tensions between the Malays and the Chinese, not just in Malaysia but in other parts of South-east Asia too.

[ZhuBaJie]

i find the bolded text really provocative and interesting. it really makes me think about the filipino chinese because we try as much as possible not to draw attention to ourselves (aside from the expensive cars and houses, sigh).

you don't want to get kidnapped.

[awong]

and here's a website that counts the Overseas Chinese population:
http://www.library.ohiou.edu/subjects/shao/databases_popdis.htm

it doesn't include the Greater China Area - meaning it doesn't count the people in Taiwan, HK, and Macau.

at present, there are about 34 million Overseas Chinese globally. you really have to wonder what the fuck are 12 Chinese people doing living in Lebanon.
I wonder if they all know each other, 30 in haiti, and 6000 in cuba I wonder if that is counted mixed, that seems a bit high, I was hearing about less than 1000 in another source. But they are all probably in their 80's with a execpt of a few

[maogirl]

and here's a website that counts the Overseas Chinese population:
http://www.library.ohiou.edu/subjects/shao/databases_popdis.htm

it doesn't include the Greater China Area - meaning it doesn't count the people in Taiwan, HK, and Macau.

at present, there are about 34 million Overseas Chinese globally. you really have to wonder what the fuck are 12 Chinese people doing living in Lebanon.
I wonder if they all know each other, 30 in haiti, and 6000 in cuba I wonder if that is counted mixed, that seems a bit high, I was hearing about less than 1000 in another source. But they are all probably in their 80's with a execpt of a few

hey! there was like 3 sentences in the book about cuban chinese!! :lol:

here it is:


In South America, the experiences of the Chinese indentured labourers were especially bad. In Cuba and Brazil, for example, the coolies were imported to work in the sugar cane plantations and were treated more or less as slaves. The exploitation and control was so severe that many committed suicide, and many died. Despite the initial hardship, once the Chiense were free of indentured labour and left the farm, many eventually set up businesses.


you don't want to get kidnapped.

aiyah, i know, that's my point lah. there's no filchi presence because the economic gap is too much. :P


Aiyah, where got corright way to speak Singlish kan? Everything all belacan wan.

wah! of cos got corright way, underwise talk like bo tak cheh one hor.


But it's really difficult to say whether this identification has been truly successful, because there are still major ethnic tensions between the Malays and the Chinese, not just in Malaysia but in other parts of South-east Asia too.

you know a malaysian told me before that the reason malays and chinese don't get along is because malays don't eat pork and chinese just love it. :P

seriously, though, is it changing with the younger generation? are tensions fragmented with the peranakan chinese and the new immigs from PRC as well -- i mean, is there more resentment towards the peranakans or the PRCs?

like in the philippines, there's growing friction between PRC immigs and filipino chinese and it complicates relations with filipinos.

[maogirl]

oh, and in relation to the original topic:



http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...rsity09-ON.html

Ethnic diversity of U.S. troops puzzles Iraqis
By Ron Harris
St. Louis Post-Dispatch
Apr. 9, 2003 07:10 AM


SOUTH OF BAGHDAD - The Marines were less than 48 hours into their invasion of Iraq when Pfc. Michael Lara of Raymondville, Texas., was first asked the question that he and some other Marines would get repeatedly from civilians.

Lara, 19, was standing guard in the turret of his Humvee manning a machine gun along the Shatt Al-Basra bridge in southern Iraq when an old man and his two sons asked permission to pass across the strategic checkpoint.

As Marines waved the man through, he suddenly turned to Lara and asked, "Kuwaiti?"

A stunned Lara paused for a second because he wasn't sure the man was talking to him.

"Kuwait?" the man asked again.

"Naw," Lara responded, "American, Mexican.

"But I don't think he believed me," Lara, a member of Weapons Company, 3rd Battalion, said later. "He just keep looking at me."

As the Marines continue to move across the country toward Baghdad, their racial and ethnic diversity has caught the Iraqis by surprise. It has become an almost comical guessing game as locals repeatedly either mistake the ethnicity of the Marines or they spend their time trying to figure it out.

Cpl. Raul San Martin, a 23-year-old Mexican American from Los Angeles, was first mistaken for Iraqi, then Kuwaiti as he was standing guard a few days ago in defense of the Marines' position at a soccer stadium in the town of Numaniyah.

"He kept asking if I was one thing and then the other, and I was thinking, 'Well, now I know that if I wanted to I could get a job for the CIA,' " San Martin said Saturday as he again was standing guard, this time along a road leading into Baghdad.

The Marines just take the guessing game with a smile.

"They're just curious," said Cpl. Henok Tefera, 30, who was born in Ethiopia but now calls Columbus, Ohio, home. "You tell them, we're U.S., we're all U.S."

Sometimes the questions leave the Marines confused.

"Yeah, these kids asked me if I was Iraqi," Navy Corpsman Ron Dawson, 20, an African-American from Columbus, Ga., said incredulously. "I don't look Iraqi. At least I certainly don't think I look Iraqi."

But Corpsman Benedict Bito, 19, of Alameda, Calif., may have gotten the strangest question while at his post in Numaniyah.

"One kid asked me was I related to (martial artists movie star) Jackie Chan," said Bito, who is Filipino. "I was standing guard in the square and the people started to stare at me. At first they told me I was Chinese, then they said Korean and finally one guy thought I was Vietnamese.

"They just couldn't believe I was American."

Cpl. Quentin Milroe of Chicago got that same disbelief a few days ago when he and other members of India Company visited a small village about four miles south of the town Afak looking for weapons caches.

"So, we went to this area and the elder of the village came out, and we started asking him were there any weapons in the village," said Milroe, a 24-year-old African-American. "This elder just kept staring at me and then he made a gesture for me to speak."

When Milroe didn't, the elder said to him, "Syrian. Syrian."

"I said no, American," Milroe said.

Positive, however, that he had Milroe's identity pegged right, the elder refused to accept that response and turned to Lt. Adrian Haskamp, a 27-year-old Puerto Rican and India Company platoon leader.

"I guess he thought maybe because I was doing all the talking he figured out that I was in charge," said Haskamp of Greensboro, N.C. "So, he points to Milroe and says to me 'Syrian. Syria.' "

Haskamp gestured no and repeated, "American."

Their business concluded, the elder turned and started back heading toward his house, but as he did, Milroe and Haskamp said they could hear him muttering to himself in disbelief, 'Syrian. Syrian."


best response to this article:

eh. the same thing would happen if the U.S. army invaded half the states in america.

"land's sakes, ma, lookit all the a-rabs and chinamen comin outy that hellycopter"

[MATHABA]

best response to this article:

eh. the same thing would happen if the U.S. army invaded half the states in america.

"land's sakes, ma, lookit all the a-rabs and chinamen comin outy that hellycopter"
yeah that's about right. whenever the family went on a road trip people would ask us "how long yall been in amerka?" and my dad would joke and say "two weeks"
the bits of TV dramas ive seen produced in the middle east always had russian-looking blonde guys playing the american crusaders. their english was funny. "sind himm to abu ghrayb!" the iraqis probably think the non-white crusaders are foreign mercenaries. "security services" there will probably start being outsourced when they start to run short of americans who want to be kidnapped and beheaded. in fact i think this is already happening.

[ZhuBaJie]

you know a malaysian told me before that the reason malays and chinese don't get along is because malays don't eat pork and chinese just love it. :P

seriously, though, is it changing with the younger generation? are tensions fragmented with the peranakan chinese and the new immigs from PRC as well -- i mean, is there more resentment towards the peranakans or the PRCs?

like in the philippines, there's growing friction between PRC immigs and filipino chinese and it complicates relations with filipinos.

tension between new Chinese immigrants and Filipino Chinese is nothing new. it existed way back in the days of Jose Rizal and the rise of the Indio identity. back then, Filipino Chinese were eager to "Filipinise" because of the new-found nationalism. new immigrants from China essentially represented what they wanted to move away from.

by the way, the Peranakan identity is very interesting to me. and i would love to visit some historic sites some day.

[Dialectic]

oh, and in relation to the original topic:



http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...rsity09-ON.html

Ethnic diversity of U.S. troops puzzles Iraqis
By Ron Harris
St. Louis Post-Dispatch
Apr. 9, 2003 07:10 AM


SOUTH OF BAGHDAD - The Marines were less than 48 hours into their invasion of Iraq when Pfc. Michael Lara of Raymondville, Texas., was first asked the question that he and some other Marines would get repeatedly from civilians.

Lara, 19, was standing guard in the turret of his Humvee manning a machine gun along the Shatt Al-Basra bridge in southern Iraq when an old man and his two sons asked permission to pass across the strategic checkpoint.

As Marines waved the man through, he suddenly turned to Lara and asked, "Kuwaiti?"

A stunned Lara paused for a second because he wasn't sure the man was talking to him.

"Kuwait?" the man asked again.

"Naw," Lara responded, "American, Mexican.

"But I don't think he believed me," Lara, a member of Weapons Company, 3rd Battalion, said later. "He just keep looking at me."

As the Marines continue to move across the country toward Baghdad, their racial and ethnic diversity has caught the Iraqis by surprise. It has become an almost comical guessing game as locals repeatedly either mistake the ethnicity of the Marines or they spend their time trying to figure it out.

Cpl. Raul San Martin, a 23-year-old Mexican American from Los Angeles, was first mistaken for Iraqi, then Kuwaiti as he was standing guard a few days ago in defense of the Marines' position at a soccer stadium in the town of Numaniyah.

"He kept asking if I was one thing and then the other, and I was thinking, 'Well, now I know that if I wanted to I could get a job for the CIA,' " San Martin said Saturday as he again was standing guard, this time along a road leading into Baghdad.

The Marines just take the guessing game with a smile.

"They're just curious," said Cpl. Henok Tefera, 30, who was born in Ethiopia but now calls Columbus, Ohio, home. "You tell them, we're U.S., we're all U.S."

Sometimes the questions leave the Marines confused.

"Yeah, these kids asked me if I was Iraqi," Navy Corpsman Ron Dawson, 20, an African-American from Columbus, Ga., said incredulously. "I don't look Iraqi. At least I certainly don't think I look Iraqi."

But Corpsman Benedict Bito, 19, of Alameda, Calif., may have gotten the strangest question while at his post in Numaniyah.

"One kid asked me was I related to (martial artists movie star) Jackie Chan," said Bito, who is Filipino. "I was standing guard in the square and the people started to stare at me. At first they told me I was Chinese, then they said Korean and finally one guy thought I was Vietnamese.

"They just couldn't believe I was American."

Cpl. Quentin Milroe of Chicago got that same disbelief a few days ago when he and other members of India Company visited a small village about four miles south of the town Afak looking for weapons caches.

"So, we went to this area and the elder of the village came out, and we started asking him were there any weapons in the village," said Milroe, a 24-year-old African-American. "This elder just kept staring at me and then he made a gesture for me to speak."

When Milroe didn't, the elder said to him, "Syrian. Syrian."

"I said no, American," Milroe said.

Positive, however, that he had Milroe's identity pegged right, the elder refused to accept that response and turned to Lt. Adrian Haskamp, a 27-year-old Puerto Rican and India Company platoon leader.

"I guess he thought maybe because I was doing all the talking he figured out that I was in charge," said Haskamp of Greensboro, N.C. "So, he points to Milroe and says to me 'Syrian. Syria.' "

Haskamp gestured no and repeated, "American."

Their business concluded, the elder turned and started back heading toward his house, but as he did, Milroe and Haskamp said they could hear him muttering to himself in disbelief, 'Syrian. Syrian."


best response to this article:

eh. the same thing would happen if the U.S. army invaded half the states in america.

"land's sakes, ma, lookit all the a-rabs and chinamen comin outy that hellycopter"

This post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Their whole notion of national identity is completely different from the American one, and it's much more closely tied to appearance and blood. Go to Iraq and try telling them that racial identity has nothing to do with your skin color and bone structure and see what kind of response you get it.

And without trying to be too controversial, this is why sb1 will never be considered a "real" Korean. Part of a Korean identity is predicated on blood and appearance; Korean and even pan-Asian nationalism also partially depends on this. Being Korean or Asian "in the mind" is not enough, as Koreanness and Asianness is also tied to the body.

(And mg's previous post had some terrific quotes on acculturation and assimilation. These are the developmental and identity experiences that white folks do not understand, and indeed, do not know is happening. We should probably put something about this in the Declarations. mg, do you have a source for that stuff?)

[Infectious]

Heh, I know what that means :P my parents love to use it. Almost every time they do though, it's prefaced with "chou".

HAHA! are you serious? my parents tried their best not to curse in front of us, but i learned everything from my grandparents, who used to call each other lanchiao and cheebye, etc.

Yeah. My parents swear a lot, from when we were kids till now. Us kids never actually picked up much of it, it's really strange.


I hang out with lots of Taiwanese more often than not even though much of my extended family is SEA Chinese. For me that has to do with my school (most of the Chinese living in the city where my school is are Taiwanese.)

what kind of SEA chinese are you? you know, when i lived in toronto, i hung out with the cantos because the taiwanese kids rejected me for being from nan tou and for driving the wrong kind of luxury car. :P

I'm actually not SEA Chinese (I was born where you live), and neither are my siblings. My mom's side is IndoChinese originally but some of them are Singaporean, my dad's side is Chinese Hokkien.

The school I went to, had a lot of Taiwanese move locally (the area was originally heavily German, and still is - we celebrate Oktoberfest every year, and it's quite lively). Other than that, it's mostly Hong Kong people but even though I got along with them I was different (I did a lot of extracirriculars back in the day)

yeah, same with the philippines. although what usually happens is that people use their full hokkien names as their last names like cory aquino's family, the cojuangcos.

there a lot of chindos here in hk because of the 1998 riots, a lot of them just settled here.

I actually know somebody who I'm pretty sure is "fully converted" so I don't recognize the name off the bat.

The other stuff (with regards to generation divide) is very interesting but deserves its own thread, I think. Although, most of the 2nd genners I know don't really want to learn Chinese (whether it's Cantonese, Putonghua, Minnanhua/Hokkien, Hakka or any other language of that sort) even when growing up in a Chinese environment. I think it's probably a hassle to learn if you're didn't grow up with it.

[Hater Depot]

I want to bring up the notion of differentiated vs. undifferentiated concepts of identity.

The meaning is very simple: some forms of national/ ethnic identity can't be separated from race and religion, and some can.

For example, my former housemate is of East Indian descent and comes from a Shia Ismaili Muslim family. He has no Muslim beliefs or behaviors, and is pretty much not religious. Yet he self-identifies as Muslim, simply because he is "Muslim" by blood.

Example 2: No Black, Indian, or White man can ever be Japanese.

Example 3: No Black, Indian, or Asian man can ever be Italian.

Example 4: Blacks, Whites, Asians, Browns, what have you, can be American (at least among most circles and in the legislation, which is key).

So what's going on here?

In North America, race, culture, religion, and nationality have been largely differentiated from one another. Your status in one category does not automatically define your status in the others (there are of course issues of who is more or less American, but that's another discussion). In most other countries in the world, these notions are fused, or undifferentiated, which can lead to major problems when they come into contact with American or Canadian culture.

This is great stuff. Do you have any sources that I could find on the net and print out for a class?

[maogirl]

This post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Their whole notion of national identity is completely different from the American one, and it's much more closely tied to appearance and blood. Go to Iraq and try telling them that racial identity has nothing to do with your skin color and bone structure and see what kind of response you get it.

And without trying to be too controversial, this is why sb1 will never be considered a "real" Korean. Part of a Korean identity is predicated on blood and appearance; Korean and even pan-Asian nationalism also partially depends on this. Being Korean or Asian "in the mind" is not enough, as Koreanness and Asianness is also tied to the body.

(And mg's previous post had some terrific quotes on acculturation and assimilation. These are the developmental and identity experiences that white folks do not understand, and indeed, do not know is happening. We should probably put something about this in the Declarations. mg, do you have a source for that stuff?)

err...it's from a book called: chinese overseas: comparative cultural issues by tan chee-beng

if you like, i can type up some of the relevant passages regarding acculturation and assimilation.

[maogirl]

I'm actually not SEA Chinese (I was born where you live), and neither are my siblings. My mom's side is IndoChinese originally but some of them are Singaporean, my dad's side is Chinese Hokkien.

you were born here?? do you have a hk id? are you stilll unmarried? how old are you?


The other stuff (with regards to generation divide) is very interesting but deserves its own thread, I think. Although, most of the 2nd genners I know don't really want to learn Chinese (whether it's Cantonese, Putonghua, Minnanhua/Hokkien, Hakka or any other language of that sort) even when growing up in a Chinese environment. I think it's probably a hassle to learn if you're didn't grow up with it.

yeah, the book talks about that, too.

[Dialectic]

err...it's from a book called: chinese overseas: comparative cultural issues by tan chee-beng

if you like, i can type up some of the relevant passages regarding acculturation and assimilation.

That'd be great if you have the time! We should put something in the Declarations that talks about the identity issues non-majority people go through.

[maogirl]

okay, i'll just type bits whenever i can find the time:

here's the introduction to acculturation and assimilation:


Anthropologists and sociologists have longn discussed the issue of acculturation and assimilation. A major part of localization is actually acculturation..."the kind of cultural change of one ethnic group or certain population of an ethnic group (A) in relation to another ethnic group (B) such that certain cultural features of A become similar or bear some resemblance to those of B...." It can be a two-way process, although it usually involves greater socio-cultural adjustment on the part of the minority to that of the majority group.

Assimilation does not mean that individuals become exactly the same as the majority people. Our distinction of acculturation and assimilation is that in assimilation there is a change in ethnic membership. Here it is relevant to make a distinction between cultural identity and ethnic identity. Ethnic identity refers to ethnic identification with a particular ethnic category; cultural identity refers to cultural expression. Individuals identifying with the same ethnic category may emphasize different cultural traits in expressing their ethnic identity.

Identification with national identity differs from country to country and from individual to individual....In the West, where there is a more open view of citizenship...individuals often can take their ethnic and state-bound identity for granted. However, after they have interacted with Chinese in other countries, they may reflect on their own identity, especially after they have been confronted about their "Chineseness...." Lily Wu, a Chinese American, writes, "Before my trip to China, being "Chinese" meant almost nothing to me, and even being "American" was somethign that I had simply taken for granted. Ironically, both levels of awareness sharpened at the same time."

something that you guys might like -- this was an observation on why chinese americans are more likely to be acculturated AND assimilated into white culture.

As long as Chinese Americans observe the laws and are willing to adjust to the dominant White culture, they can compete with other Americans.

this is contrasted with how in southeast asia, the less assimilated an ethnic chinese was, the more likely he is to be economically successful. pretty wild, huh?


[Within the ethnic Chinese community], the least acculturated people of Chinese descent tend to consider themselves "pure Chinese" and look down on the highly acculturated ones. They ignore the fact that compared to the Chinese in Guangzhou or Taipei, they themselves are in fact quite localized, too. This does not mean that the more acculturated Chinese always feel inferior about their identity....Emphasizing the local content of the Chinese identity is a way for the people of Chinese descent to reconcile the fact of acculturation and avoid an inferiority complex or even identity crisis. When the English-speaking Chinese Americans are compared to the Chinese from Taiwan, they may be culturally inferior from the Taiwanese point of view. The Chinese Americans, however, can ignore this attitude emphasizing their local identity, of being American, that is, Chinese American. In so identifying themselves, they want to be judged in the context of their Chinese identity. In this way, they define their own identity vis a vis the Chinese of other countries. At the same time, the more acculturated ones can claim to be more American and therefore superior to the new immigrants and the less acculturated.

[ZhuBaJie]

Lily Wu, a Chinese American, writes, "Before my trip to China, being "Chinese" meant almost nothing to me, and even being "American" was somethign that I had simply taken for granted. Ironically, both levels of awareness sharpened at the same time."

the interesting thing about this is that the reverse may be true of immigrants returning to Asia after living in the US for a long time. that they took being Chinese for granted and that being American meant nothing to them. but many find that when they visit their "homeland" after having been away for a long time, they've really adjusted to life in the US and can't just easily slip back into life in Asia.

something that you guys might like -- this was an observation on why chinese americans are more likely to be acculturated AND assimilated into white culture.

As long as Chinese Americans observe the laws and are willing to adjust to the dominant White culture, they can compete with other Americans.

this is contrasted with how in southeast asia, the less assimilated an ethnic chinese was, the more likely he is to be economically successful. pretty wild, huh?

that's because the Chinese communities in Southeast Asia has a lot of control and influence in their countries' economies. this is not so in western countries like the US, Canada, and Australia. the economies in these countries are still largely white-controlled.

[santoki]

well, I know another example.

Let's take about 200'000 Korean children, send them overseas to predominantly white families and just wait and see what the result will be.

Just an experiment? Just fiction? No, it started 50 years ago and is continueing to this day.

Identity is among adoptees one of the hot issues. Every adoptee feels differently, but from my experience it's mostly a process that most adoptees go through.

First they identify as white, then when discovering their heritage they also discover that they are also Korean, or part or not at all...

Anyway, all in all many adoptees struggle with their identities. Not really difficult to find that out considering the fact that you don't grow up in your culture and additionally that your family is white whereas you're of color...

santoki

[Dialectic]

Hi Santoki,

Yes, we're aware of the difficult and special issues adoptees face in Europe and North America. I don't know if you've read this yet, but a long-time member contributed a Feature on the topic a while back:

http://www.thefighting44s.com/article.php?id_art=22

He's a young dude, and I think wrote this when he was only 14 or 15, but he's very bright and very far ahead of the cognitive/ moral curve for his age.

[Dialectic]

This is great stuff. Do you have any sources that I could find on the net and print out for a class?

Hi HD,

Unfortunately I can't give you a direct source for this because this understanding developed as a result of quite a bit of reading on philosophy, psychology, and the notion of differentiating and integrating aspects of existence, like body and mind, for example.

The examples I give, however, are pretty obvious and self-explanatory, so one shouldn't necessarily need to point to expert sources on the matter, though I'm sure some exist.

Simply ask your class to explore the similarities and differences of different identities, say "Muslim," "Japanese," "Black," and "American," and understanding will follow.

[santoki]

Yeah, I've read that, very interesting. Especially considering his age. In my generation that was not possible but nowadays with the internet and more and more contacts in between adoptees this became possible.

In our generation you just grew up with no other asians around. So you had to figure it out all by yourself.

[seoulbrotherno1]

And without trying to be too controversial, this is why sb1 will never be considered a "real" Korean. Part of a Korean identity is predicated on blood and appearance; Korean and even pan-Asian nationalism also partially depends on this. Being Korean or Asian "in the mind" is not enough, as Koreanness and Asianness is also tied to the body.

D,

I know that you weren't trying to be offensive with your comment, so I am not tripping at all. However, I do feel the need to put in my two cents as far as the issue of identity is concerned.

Your observation operates on the assumption which most South Coreans possess: Having "pure" blood automatically qualfies them as authorities on who really is or is not Corean. This expertise is so pansophical that South Coreans are capable of determining who is really Corean or not without even knowing anything about the person in question. Merely looking at them or hearing a brief snippet of conversation is enough for these omniscient beings to render their judgement of "Corean" or "not Corean."

Unfortunately Corean Amerasians are not the only victims of these judgements. Corean Adoptees, Overseas Coreans, and even North Corean defectors all get labelled as "not Corean" by the all-knowing South Corean populace.

I won't argue with the fact that your statement reflects my reality (South Coreans are unable to accept me or any others who are different.) However, I would contend that those judgements are based on prejudice and a deep sense of insecurity. In short, I am saying that the South Corean definition of who really is or isn't Corean is bullshit because it is not based on any understanding of who Coreans are socially, historically, culturally, or politically. Instead their narrow definition of who is and isn't Corean is informend by their own inferiority complexes and intolerance.

Why is it so important for South Coreans to judge the legitimacy of other's Coreanness?

Why do they have such a narrow definition of what it means to be Corean?

Why are they completely incapable of accepting anything that strays from the norm? (I have had South Coreans tell me that North Coreans aren't really even Corean.)

Basically South Corean determinations about who is or isn't Corean harkens back to your discussions about physics (that post was right-on, BTW). Basically you have a nation full of people who believe in the Blueberry Muffin theory (mmmm.... blueberry muffins...) of atomic structure. Meanwhile anyone who might have an idea about M Theory is looked at like a total fucking idiot.

Lastly, I feel like I should make a philosophical defense of Corean Amerasian identity. Corean Amerasians aren't Corean "in the mind only" -like some Whiteboy raised in the colony who speaks the language of the natives and knows about the culture. Corean Amerasians were born as a direct result of US invasion, occupation and rape. We are a historical fact in South Corea and we are a physical consequence an event that happened in South Corea -right down to our blood and bones. Corean Amerasians are as real a part of Corea as an impact crater left on Corean soil by American ordinance.

Our identity is incriminating to both the US, and to the South Corean populace (who actively sold their mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters to the US military -or who looked the other way while all of this happened). The existence of Corean Amerasians threaten the notion of South Corean "independence," equality, and friendship with America -which is why the South Corean government instituted a policy of ethnic cleansing against us.

Although our role in Corean history has been both concealed and ignored, we are still a part of that history. We do exist.

For those of us born and raised in Corea, there is really no choice about identity. These Corean Amerasians don't know their fathers, have no contact with American culture, speak only Corean, attended Corean schools and know only Corean culture. These Amerasians are inevitably Corean no matter how much they may want to be American.

For overseas Amerasians like me, the situation is different, of course. The issue of personal investment underlies the issue of identity. In that context there is some legitimacy to the notion that blood defines racial and national identity. Mixed-blood -especially half-White blood implies less investment and more opportunities for assimilation into the dominating ethnic group. Thus mixed-blooded people are rightfully expected to bear a greater burden of proof as far as their loyalties are concerned. I agree with the notion that you have to choose a side.

However, once sides are chosen, and once our stance is clear, I don't think that we should be excluded from identifying as Asian, Asian-American, or Corean. Of course, I am not the same as a South Corean born and raised in Seoul, but I am a type of Corean nontheless.

sb1

[Dialectic]

Yo sb1,

I know I'm sometimes pretty blunt or insensitive with my remarks, so I appreciate the tone of your response, as well as the content itself.

I agree overall with what you're saying. I wouldn't exclude you myself, because you're adorable. We have much more sophisticated understandings of race and ethnicity and identity than your average bear. Unfortunately, these "old-school" notions of identity which can be found all over Asia, Africa, the Middle-East, and parts of Europe (as well as sub-communities in North America) were formed in a time when identities were much simpler and defined by blood and geography, and they will in all likelihood not adapt very well to the times (like most of our old-school religions).

This is why we have to create and spread new types of identities which are more inclusive and reflect the complexity of the times.

[seoulbrotherno1]

Thanks for the words D. By this point in time, I know that if you have malicious intentions, you'll come straight out with it. So I am not worried about any kind of back-handed attack. Besides, what you were saying wasn't without merit.

As far as South Corea is concerned, I think that the need to label people as authentic Coreans is only a recent historical phenomena. A lot of people talk about a revision to today's racial (or even sexist) views as something that goes completely against Corean culture, so I like to link changing our perspective to some historical examples.

Historically, Corean empires embraced a diverse amount of ethnic groups -the Malgals (Mohe in Chinese), the Upnu, the Okcho, Puyo, Chin Han, Mahan, and Pyeon Han, the Paekche, the Shilla, even some Jomon peoples. (Old Koguryo tomb murals depict Coreans wrestling with big-nosed Turks.)

Even as late as the Choseon Dynasty (1392-1910), immigrants from China, Vietnam, and even Europe (!) were accepted into Corea (a group of shipwrecked sailors settled down in Corea, and approximately ten years later when Europeans tried to take them back, the Coreans insisted that they were Corean (they spoke the language, had Corean wives, and mixed kids) and refused to repatriate them.)

The current fixation on racial purity can be seen as a reaction to both Japanese and American occupation. The current ideology of "a pure unbroken 5,000 year old bloodline" (Dan Il Min Jok) is frighteningly similar to the Japanese ideology during the Colonial era: "the Japanese are a pure and divine race directly descended from Amaeratsu (sp?)" Coreans often take solace in their pure bloodlines when confronted by notions of American superiority ("they might be stronger than us, but we aren't a bunch of mixed blooded mongrels!")

sb1

[Dialectic]

I see what you're saying, and this certainly has merit. Nations and peoples will certainly go through more and less nationalistic or ethnocentric phases. And there are big differences between "healthy" ethnocentric developments and pathological ones. And these "ethnic pathologies" seem to grow whenever there's been massive poverty and/or colonialism, something Korea hasn't been a stranger to in the past century.

[ZhuBaJie]

Historically, Corean empires embraced a diverse amount of ethnic groups -the Malgals (Mohe in Chinese), the Upnu, the Okcho, Puyo, Chin Han, Mahan, and Pyeon Han, the Paekche, the Shilla, even some Jomon peoples. (Old Koguryo tomb murals depict Coreans wrestling with big-nosed Turks.)

Even as late as the Choseon Dynasty (1392-1910), immigrants from China, Vietnam, and even Europe (!) were accepted into Corea (a group of shipwrecked sailors settled down in Corea, and approximately ten years later when Europeans tried to take them back, the Coreans insisted that they were Corean (they spoke the language, had Corean wives, and mixed kids) and refused to repatriate them.)

do you have any sources for this? i would like to read more about it. it would make sense that the earlier periods which you mentioned accepted a multi-ethnic society, because the Korean peninsula back then was not unified yet, and was ruled by several nations. but the Joseon dynasty lasted a very long time, and during its last couple of centuries or so, it effectively closed itself off to the outside world. i would think that if Korean society placed any emphasis on racial purity at all, this sentiment would have developed during the latter period of the Joseon dynasty.

also, i do wonder if you can really go as far as that they "embraced" a diverse ethnic makeup, more so than them just accepting it or tolerating it.

[Justin]

Yeah there were also early travel logs by Iraqi traders who said that every Iraqi who visited Corea would never leave and usually build a family there.
I read this in a book called Korea: Old and New if you wanna read more about it.

[santoki]

there is this site by henny savenije at:

http://www.hendrick-hamel.henny-savenije.pe.kr/index.htm

about hendrick hamel but also about jan janse weltevree who lived in korea at that time. the text also contains descriptions of korea at that time. source apparently in dutch, bibliography is also there.

santoki

[seoulbrotherno1]

Corea does have a very long history. Our calendar is currently at year 4338. In terms of this calendar, the Choseon Dynasty wasn't that long. However, in terms of modern history, it was very, very long.

It would be a mistake to say that Corea was homogenous throughout the Choseon period. This period was actually marked by a radical departure from previous traditions and a centuries-long efforts to change society from the top down (specifically dealing with the implementation of ultra-conservative Neo Confucianism and the oppression of women.) The final manifestation of Choseon Corea is a far cry from what Corea was like during the beginning of the dynasty.

Despite the ultra-conservative bend, Corea was still a much more tolerant place as far as nationality was concerned. I think that part of the reason for this was because the concept of "national identity" wasn't so tightly wound up with personal identity. Within Corea, there were several regional differnences from food, to language, to culture, etc. I don't think that Coreans were so hung up on defining who really was or wasn't Corean back then. Like I said, several "foreign" families settled down and established clans which lasted until today. Even the founder of the Choseon dynasty was part Jurchen, and he returned to Seoul with several Jurchen military advisors when he staged his coup de ta. North Corea is geographically more similar to Manchuria than it is to the South. Furthermore Coreans have always lived in Manchuria as well, so it wouldn't be surprising if Coreans from the Northern provinces related better to Coreans who lived on the other side of the Yalu or Amnok Rivers. A martial arts journal published during the Choseon Dynasty talks extensively about different techniques and weapons utilized in the region -implying a lot of flexibility in travelling back and forth between various "nations."

sb1

[ZhuBaJie]

Yeah there were also early travel logs by Iraqi traders who said that every Iraqi who visited Corea would never leave and usually build a family there.
I read this in a book called Korea: Old and New if you wanna read more about it.

what time period?

[ZhuBaJie]

Corea does have a very long history. Our calendar is currently at year 4338. In terms of this calendar, the Choseon Dynasty wasn't that long. However, in terms of modern history, it was very, very long.

actually, the Joseon dynasty was the longest-lasting dynasty in East Asia, and one of the longest-lasting dynasties in all of world history. this is with exception to Gojoseon (古朝鮮, 고조선). but Gojoseon's founding origins is disputable and not backed by archaeological evidence. the founding date of Gojoseon is claimed in a book written in the 13th century.

It would be a mistake to say that Corea was homogenous throughout the Choseon period. This period was actually marked by a radical departure from previous traditions and a centuries-long efforts to change society from the top down (specifically dealing with the implementation of ultra-conservative Neo Confucianism and the oppression of women.) The final manifestation of Choseon Corea is a far cry from what Corea was like during the beginning of the dynasty.

Despite the ultra-conservative bend, Corea was still a much more tolerant place as far as nationality was concerned. I think that part of the reason for this was because the concept of "national identity" wasn't so tightly wound up with personal identity. Within Corea, there were several regional differnences from food, to language, to culture, etc. I don't think that Coreans were so hung up on defining who really was or wasn't Corean back then. Like I said, several "foreign" families settled down and established clans which lasted until today.

not that i think this is absolutely false, but how do you really know that Joseon dynasty Korea did not place as much emphasis on such things as racial purity and national identity? i mean, just the fact that "several" foreign families settled down there doesn't mean Korean society was ethnically diverse in general, and neither does it mean that the members of these families were accepted as locals, instead of perceived as outsiders. there are foreigners that are either living or have settled in South Korea right now, plus there is a Chinese population there.

you can say that Japanese occupation heightened a sense of national and racial identity in Korea, but then again, Joseon's defeat by the Manchurians probably caused the same thing. and it was this defeat that caused Joseon to withdraw from the outside world.

A martial arts journal published during the Choseon Dynasty talks extensively about different techniques and weapons utilized in the region -implying a lot of flexibility in travelling back and forth between various "nations."

i don't know if that implies "flexibility in traveling back and forth between various nations". it could just imply that Choseon dynasty Korea inherited a very well established and complex martial arts tradition. or it could just be that these techniques were all learnt from Chinese sources, which itself learnt from various sources. etc etc. there could be a number of implications.

[Justin]

Yeah there were also early travel logs by Iraqi traders who said that every Iraqi who visited Corea would never leave and usually build a family there.
I read this in a book called Korea: Old and New if you wanna read more about it.

what time period?

I don't remember. If you find that book though, it will tell you.