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Dialectic
Mar 20th, 2006, 11:12 AM
I linked to this in another thread, but I thought this was important and interesting enough to mention here.

I had been wondering for a while why China had been a world leader in innovation and then just stopped. I'd heard a few ideas, like the lack of formal scientific method and hypothesis testing, along with the notion of collectivist behaviour discouraging innovation; Sheki learned from an old prof of his that it was also due to the centralization of power and the massive impact of decisions by one person (i.e. the emperor). I had never heard, however, any thorough explanations of how these conditions came about: why did collectivism arise? Why did power get so centralized?

Jared Diamond, the author of Guns, Germs, Steel, offers up a very convincing explanation (or beginning of one) of just why this happened, and how Europe overtook the rest of the world. The article begins here:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/diamond_rich/rich_p2.html

The whole thing is very much worth reading; the directly relevant stuff starts here:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/diamond_rich/rich_p5.html

I'm also cutting/ pasting for convenience. At the beginning of this passage, he discusses how societies lose technology, using Japan and guns as an example.

To understand these losses in extreme isolation, the easiest case to understand is Japan, because the loss of firearms in Japan was witnessed and described. It took place in a literate society. Guns arrived in Japan around 1543 with two Portuguese adventurers who stepped ashore, pulled out a gun, and shot a duck on the wings. A Japanese nobleman happened to be there, was very impressed, bought these two guns for $10,000, and had his sword-maker imitate them. Within a decade, Japan had more guns per capita than any other country in the world, and by the year 1600 Japan had the best guns of any country in the world. And then, over the course of the next century, Japan gradually abandoned guns.

What happened was that the Samurai, the warrior class in Japan, had been used to fighting by standing up in front of their armies and making a graceful speech, the other opposing Samurai made an answering graceful speech, and then they had one-on-one combat. The Samurai discovered that the peasants with their guns would shoot the Samurai while the Samurai were making their graceful speeches. So the Samurai realized that guns were a danger because they were such an equalizer. The Samurai first restricted the licensing of gun factories to a hundred factories, and then they licensed fewer factories, and then they said that only three factories could repair guns, and then they said that those three factories could make only a hundred guns a year, then ten guns a year, then three guns a year, until by the 1840s when Commodore Perry came to Japan, Japan no longer had any guns. That represents the loss of a very powerful technology.

This loss was possible only in Japan because of its isolation; there were no other neighbors threatening Japan. When firearms arrived in Europe, there were European princes who similarly banned firearms, and there were European princes who banned printing, but you can guess what happened. When a prince in the middle of Europe banned firearms, within a short time the prince next door who did not ban firearms either walked in and conquered, or else the prince who banned firearms quickly realized his or her mistake and reacquired firearms from next door. The banning of the guns could work only in isolated Japan, where there were no neighbors as a threat, and where there were no neighbors from whom to reacquire the technology.

So these stories of isolated societies illustrate two general principles about relations between human group size and innovation or creativity. First, in any society except a totally isolated society, most innovations come in from the outside, rather than being conceived within that society. And secondly, any society undergoes local fads. By fads I mean a custom that does not make economic sense. Societies either adopt practices that are not profitable or for whatever reasons abandon practices that are profitable. But usually those fads are reversed, as a result of the societies next door without the fads out-competing the society with the fad, or else as a result of the society with the fad, like those European princes who gave up the guns, realizing they're making a big mistake and reacquiring the fad. In short, competition between human societies that are in contact with each other is what drives the invention of new technology and the continued availability of technology. Only in an isolated society, where there's no competition and no source of reintroduction, can one of these fads result in the permanent loss of a valuable technology. So that's one of the two sets of lessons that I want to draw from history, about what happens in a really isolated society and group.

The other lesson that I would like to draw from history concerns what is called the optimal fragmentation principle. Namely, if you've got a human group, whether the human group is the staff of this museum, or your business, or the German beer industry, or Route 128, is that group best organized as a single large unit, or is it best organized as a number of small units, or is it best fragmented into a lot of small units? What's the most effective organization of the groups?

I propose to get some empirical information about this question by comparing the histories of China and Europe. Why is it that China in the Renaissance fell behind Europe in technology? Often people assume that it has something to do with the Confucian tradition in China supposedly making the Chinese ultra-conservative, whereas the Judeo-Christian tradition in Europe supposedly stimulated science and innovation. Well, first of all, just ask Galileo about the simulating effects of the Judeo-Christian tradition on science. Then, secondly, just consider the state of technology in medieval Confucian China. China led the world in innovation and technology in the early Renaissance. Chinese inventions include canal lock gates, cast iron, compasses, deep drilling, gun powder, kites, paper, porcelain, printing, stern-post rudders, and wheelbarrows ó all of those innovations are Chinese innovations. So the real question is, why did Renaissance China lose its enormous technological lead to late-starter Europe?

We can get insight by seeing why China lost its lead in ocean-going ships. As of the year 1400, China had by far the best, the biggest, and the largest number of, ocean-going ships in the world. Between 1405 and 1432 the Chinese sent 7 ocean-going fleets, the so-called treasure fleets, out from China. Those fleets comprised hundreds of ships; they had total crews of 20,000 men; each of those ships dwarfed the tiny ships of Columbus; and those gigantic fleets sailed from China to Indonesia, to India, to Arabia, to the east coast of Africa, and down the east coast of Africa. It looked as if the Chinese were on the verge of rounding the Cape of Good Hope, coming up the west side of Africa, and colonizing Europe.

Well, China's tremendous fleets came to an end through a typical episode of isolationism, such as one finds in the histories of many countries. There was a new emperor in China in 1432. In China there had been a Navy faction and an anti-Navy faction. In 1432, with the new emperor, the anti-Navy faction gained ascendancy. The new emperor decided that spending all this money on ships is a waste of money. Okay, there's nothing unusual about that in China; there was also isolationism in the United States in the 1930's, and Britain did not want anything to do with electric lighting until the 1920s. The difference, though, is that this abandoning of fleets in China was final, because China was unified under one emperor. When that one emperor gave the order to dismantle the shipyards and stop sending out the ships, that order applied to all of China, and China's tradition of building ocean-going ships was lost because of the decision by one person. China was a virtual gigantic island, like Tasmania.

Now contrast that with what happened with ocean-going fleets in Europe. Columbus was an Italian, and he wanted an ocean-going fleet to sail across the Atlantic. Everybody in Italy considered this a stupid idea and wouldn't support it. So Columbus went to the next country, France, where everybody considered it a stupid idea and wouldn't support it. So Columbus went to Portugal, where the king of Portugal considered it a stupid idea and wouldn't support it. So Columbus went across the border to a duke of Spain who considered this stupid. And Columbus then went to another duke of Spain who also considered it a waste of money. On his sixth try Columbus went to the king and queen of Spain, who said this is stupid. Finally, on the seventh try, Columbus went back to the king and queen of Spain, who said, all right, you can have three ships, but they were small ships. Columbus sailed across the Atlantic and, as we all know, discovered the New World, came back, and brought the news to Europe. Cortez and Pizarro followed him and brought back huge quantities of wealth. Within a short time, as a result of Columbus having shown the way, 11 European countries jumped into the colonial game and got into fierce competition with each other. The essence of these events is that Europe was fragmented, so Columbus had many different chances.

Essentially the same thing happened in China with clocks: one emperor's decision abolished clocks over China. China was also on the verge of building powerful water-powered machinery before the Industrial Revolution in Britain, but the emperor said "Stop," and so that was the end of the water-powered machinery in China. In contrast, in Europe there were princes who said no to electric lighting, or to printing, or to guns. And, yes, in certain principalities for a while printing was suppressed. But because Europe in the Renaissance was divided among 2,000 principalities, it was never the case that there was one idiot in command of all Europe who could abolish a whole technology. Inventors had lots of chances, there was always competition between different states, and when one state tried something out that proved valuable, the other states saw the opportunity and adopted it. So the real question is, why was China chronically unified, and why was Europe chronically disunified? Why is Europe disunified to this day?

The answer is geography. Just picture a map of China and a map of Europe. China has a smooth coastline. Europe has an indented coastline, and each big indentation is a peninsula that became an independent country, independent ethnic group, and independent experiment in building a society: notably, the Greek peninsula, Italy, the Iberian peninsula, Denmark, and Norway/Sweden. Europe had two big islands that became important independent societies, Britain and Ireland, while China had no island big enough to become an independent society until the modern emergence of Taiwan. Europe is transected by mountain ranges that split up Europe into different principalities: the Alps, the Pyrenees, Carpathians ó China does not have mountain ranges that transect China. In Europe big rivers flow radially ó the Rhine, the Rhone, the Danube, and the Elbe ó and they don't unify Europe. In China the two big rivers flow parallel to each other, are separated by low-lying land, and were quickly connected by canals. For those geographic reasons, China was unified in 221 B.C. and has stayed unified most of the time since then, whereas for geographic reasons Europe was never unified. Augustus couldn't do it, Charlemagne couldn't do it, and Napoleon and Hitler couldn't unify Europe. To this day, the Europe Union is having difficulties bringing any unity to Europe.

So, the lesson I draw is that competition between entities that have free communication between them spurred on Europe. In China one despot could and did halt innovation in China. Instead, China's experience of technological innovation came during the times when China's unity fell apart, or when China was taken over temporarily by an outside invader.

You've seen that effect even in modern times. Twenty years ago, a few idiots in control of the world's most populous nation were able to shut down the educational system for one billion people at the time of the Great Cultural Revolution, whereas it's impossible for a few idiots to shut down the educational system of all of Europe. This suggests, then, that Europe's fragmentation was a great advantage to Europe as far as technological and scientific innovation is concerned. Does this mean that a high degree of fragmentation is even better? Probably not. India was geographically even more fragmented than Europe, but India was not technologically as innovative as Europe. And this suggests that there is an optimal intermediate degree of fragmentation, that a too-unified society is a disadvantage, and a too-fragmented society is also a disadvantage. Instead, innovation proceeds most rapidly in a society with some intermediate degree of fragmentation.

evil_FUX
Mar 20th, 2006, 05:31 PM
Is it possible that it could be a combination of both this guy's theory and the traditional theory?

toml
Mar 20th, 2006, 06:28 PM
^ I'm sure the true answer is always somewhere in the middle :)

minbo
Mar 20th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Jared Diamond's theory does not invalidate the theories on why China stopped innovating scientificly. The scholars gaining power over the eunichs, or what have you.

In the absence of external threats, existing power structures move to protect themselves from internal threats. If you are a skilled professional army, you make "rules of war" to outlaw weapons or stratagies that invalidate your power, chemical/biological weapons, shotguns for close combat trench warfare, landmines, etc.

He is trying to explain why China had no real external threats when they became introverted, which is political unification providing enough military might to keep any immediate neighbours at bay. Political unification he believes made possible by the lack of interior mountains, parallel river systems, indented coastline, few peninsulas or large inhabitable islands.

I don't understand however how he explains the lack of German / France unification, or even the fractured Germam principalitys.

Tenjikuronin
Mar 21st, 2006, 07:54 PM
India was geographically even more fragmented than Europe, but India was not technologically as innovative as Europe.

I disagree. India was way more innovative than Europe, and a lot of Indian Ideas were simply re-used by the Europeans later onwards. Much of the things discovered in Europe had already been discovered in India centuries prior.......

Dialectic
Mar 21st, 2006, 09:59 PM
You've somewhat misinterpreted that statement. China was also more innovative than Europe for a while, which Diamond acknowledges. His point is not that China or India were never ahead of Europe, it's that they fell behind and essentially stopped.

There's no doubt Europeans took all sorts of ideas from Arabs, Chinese, and Indians, but the fact is, they went much further and created science. They developed rational inquiry, hypothesis testing, formal logic, scientific method. To say that they snatched that from other cultures and simply took credit for it is not correct. And Diamond is giving a fairly plausible explanation of why that happened.

Minbo, thank you for responding to the other comments. You're absolutely right: Diamond's explanation does not invalidate the other theories at all. It describes conditions under which the structures of the traditional theories arose.

Charlie
Mar 21st, 2006, 10:19 PM
The important point is that China still isn't conducive to innovation today. When's the last time you heard of a Chinese company having a big R&D budget? They might be more open to foreign investment, but being a huge manufacturing economy serving the west isn't enough. They need to start innovating if they plan to dominate the US someday.

Dialectic
Mar 21st, 2006, 10:33 PM
Haha, Sheki and I were talking about that the other day. It seems that with the state of things right now, Chinese-manufactured stuff is fine if they're manufacturing for a Western company (or, I'm guessing, a Japanese company). Their homegrown stuff just isn't up to snuff yet, at least from what we've seen here (I am so not down with Logitech).

We have to remember, too, that Japan isn't even that good at innovating vs. the Europe or the U.S. I think somebody did a study of Nobel Prize winners a while back; the prize awards innovation, and the Japanese haven't won too many relatively (but are generally the best at refining a technology). This is a direct result of Asian collectivist tendencies.

Dialectic
Mar 21st, 2006, 10:45 PM
Diamond's piece, and this thread, also touches on a subtler idea: that of developing consciousness.

What I mean by this is that earlier in human history, we were pretty much subject to strong biological/ environmental constraints and conditions. It was not until very recently, over the last three or four hundred years, that our species became capable reflection on a significant scale. By reflection I'm referring to the conscious ability to examine, analyze, learn, and "reflect" on the world (and then, to reflect on the process of reflection itself).

Asians have been relatively collectivistic for a long, long time; Europeans have been relatively individualistic for a long, long time. And I had been wondering exactly why that came about. A population of humans a few thousand years ago isn't going to arbitrarily swing one way or the other; they're going to do it for evolutionary reasons, for reasons of survival, based on environmental circumstances. In this sense, because we as a species weren't nearly as conscious then as we are now, we didn't have a choice. Environmental conditions dictated values and social structures, and that Europeans becoming more innovative and Asians less so.

Now the world has changed. We're the smartest bunch of humans that's ever walked the Earth (some people may look at this as a sad thing, but it's a positive point for me), and the world of mind is rapidly developing. As a result, we have democracy, feminism, capitalism, anti-racism, and of course the internet. We as a species are more conscious than we have ever been, which means that we are more free. As degrees of consciousness increase, so do degrees of freedom. The more conscious you are, the more free will you have. And it will be fascinating to see the sorts of things we choose to do from here.

minbo
Mar 22nd, 2006, 12:40 AM
While China does not compare to the west for scientific R&D vs the West, they are growing to be a major player in the industrial design space. It may be considered refinement, as the industrial design can make a product better (but is not a product in and of itself), but some of their stuff is really innovative for human interface and usability. Give them a few years/decades...