What Makes CCBs?

[Dialectic]

And this is the discussion I've wanted to get to for quite some time. Anyone's free to participate, as always, but you must participate in an integral manner: consider as many viewpoints as you can, bring together what's right about all of them, and recognize depth and complexity.

So how do CCBs, and self-hate in general, come to be?

The first reason, the one touted again and again on Asian political forums, is media representation: either a total lack, or stereotypical/ fetishized stuff if there is representation.

Anyone want to elaborate on this? How do you think this media (un/mis-) representation came to be?

And what other causes are there?

[B the student]

:lol: http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=70412#70412

D how would you define self-hate?

my take (to keep the ball rolling):

as far as media representation, a lot of it simply has to do with that we live in a white world so to speak. I figure as more Asian people are born or immigrate here, the more representation they will have. It is easy for the majority to villify an unknown minority. The "great American experimement" is still going on, and me thinks as time progresses and Asian Americans rise up to the challenge of establishing their voice and proliferating in these white parts of the world they will have to be recognized as people, a people that have been marginalized, fetishized, and villified, and a people who stories are worth telling.

another cause I feel that needs to be discussed is: where and how one is raised. If you are raised in an enviroment where there are no other asians, then what do you think the expected outcome will be? maybe more thoughts later.

[maogirl]

BEFORE I BEGIN, I WOULD LIKE TO STRONGLY EMPHASIZE THAT THE FOLLOWING THEORY APPLIES ONLY TO NATIVE ASIAN CCBS, NOT ASIAN AMERICAN ONES.

to distinguish, i will add an "N" before the acronym CCB. also, i am using the female to refer to CCB and male to refer to asiaphile because i'm a sexist, but it applies to both sexes.

i'd like to approach this first as looking at NCCBness and white asiaphilia as both sides of the same coin.

both are attracted to other cultures to the point of rejecting their own. both find aspects of their native culture as disappointing or disgusting or simply not a good fit. when it comes down to it, both the NCCB and the white asiaphile have problems with belonging and fitting in their own culture. superficially, they may appear to function well enough in their society, but on some deeper level, they are unable to connect to others or to feel like they "belong."

i'm going to try to keep this simple and not name drop writers, but here it is inevitable that the concept of edward said's orientalism arises. if you haven't read it, go read it now!!

the white asiaphile turns to a culture that he believes will be more sympathetic to his own deficiencies. it is a culture that he can appreciate as "beautiful," or "honourable," etc. but ultimately, underneath that lies a belief that the culture is in some way "backwards" or not as "developed" as his own, hence allowing him to attain some sort of status which he is unable to do in his own culture. quite a few asiaphiles believe themselves to be welcomed into the culture ON THEIR OWN TERMS, as who they "really" are, without taking into consideration that they actually force themselves into the culture because of the privilege of their whiteness alone.

the NCCB, on the other hand, faces similar issues as the white asiaphile. she is unable to feel accepted or to belong in her culture, perhaps because she doesn't meet the beauty standard, or she has difficulty "conforming," and does not have the social or financial support to pursue her "non-conformity." NCCBs are often out of place in society and, like the white asiaphile, are unable to find mates who will accept their "eccentricities."

it is no coincidence that the NCCBs in asia are usually the uglier, fatter women, women who have "unusual" interests such as science fiction, women who are unable to find acceptable mates from their social pool and cannot "marry down," and so on.

the same applies with male NCCBs, although that is a bit more complicated as it is conflated with male privilege in asia, as well.

*aside: my friends and i sometimes play a game where we look at the local chicks and we pick out which ones are NCCBs, and we're usually right. they usually have the type of looks which are not considered attractive in asia, but which foreigners like because it fits into their idea of what an asian "should" look like.

the NCCB internalizes their inability to "fit in" as "my culture is so restrictive and frustrating, i am not able to be myself." again, as a form of reverse orientalism, the NCCB turns to white cultures as a way of escaping and belonging. because of the way the white devil cavepeople have colonized and damaged asia, the NCCB perceives white culture as a "liberator" culture where she can be "herself." however, because most native asians are ignorant about the true nature of white culture, the NCCB does not realize that in the end, she herself DOES NOT BELONG, either. however, the false promise of freedom is enough for her.

if you notice, white asiaphiles NEVER date NCCBs because NCCBs are looking for white men who have little or no interest in asian culture. hence, the whole "my white partner doesn't fetishize me, it's just that with him, i feel truly myself, blah blah blah, i am not just an asian person, i am a real person."

admission:

because of my own upbringing and social class, plus my "unusual" interests, i would have been prime NCCB material. plus, back in the day, i looked like a koala.

this has made me somewhat understanding of NCCBs because i know what it's like to not fit in, and i understand their frustration at not being able to do things that they would like to do.

however, unlike a lot of NCCBs, i had money to travel and live in other countries and see for myself the truth about the white devil cavepeople and their white devil cave society. plus i have a great set of parents who, in the end, did indulge me and let me figure things out on my own.

in some ways, i do struggle with aspects of NCCBness in that my past two male partners were both overseas asians because...here it comes!...i haven't been able to find a native guy from my social class who i could relate to. it was much easier finding native women who i could relate to.

this time around, though, you never know.

[Dialectic]

:lol: http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=70412#70412

D how would you define self-hate?

my take (to keep the ball rolling):

as far as media representation, a lot of it simply has to do with that we live in a white world so to speak. I figure as more Asian people are born or immigrate here, the more representation they will have. It is easy for the majority to villify an unknown minority. The "great American experimement" is still going on, and me thinks as time progresses and Asian Americans rise up to the challenge of establishing their voice and proliferating in these white parts of the world they will have to be recognized as people, a people that have been marginalized, fetishized, and villified, and a people who stories are worth telling.

another cause I feel that needs to be discussed is: where and how one is raised. If you are raised in an enviroment where there are no other asians, then what do you think the expected outcome will be? maybe more thoughts later.

I've added a link to the end of the discussion B references.

Also, mg, holy crap the first time I ask for short bits of discussion with brief consideration, you give me this?! *sigh* Chinese chicks with south-east Asian influence and perfect English ... nothing but trouble ....

Okay b, to address your points:

Without getting too muddled up in terminology or super-precision (which is impossible for social definitions anyway), I mean self-hate to be an inferiority complex, in this case with specific reference to one's race. One believes one's "race" (and here, even race is not understood properly by the person with the complex, or s/he wouldn't have one) to be innately inferior to another - almost always white (though it could also be a feeling of inferiority to all of the others, but it's rare when it comes to Blacks, due to their social standing) - and looking to "superior races" for validation and self-esteem needs (as well as economic and political).

What causes it? Well the short answer is colonialism, but I want to go a bit deeper.

Part of the purpose of this discussion was to talk candidly about those points that CCBs and conservative whites bring up about Asians which are TRUE. And we'll get to those.

Finally, yes, a majority presence will dictate media content. The nature of that content depends on how developed/ enlightened the majority presence is. Colonialism aside, we can't wholly blame whites for malicious behavior when it comes to media representation, as they're going to put what they know and relate to in the media. Naturally, minority views and presence will not be emphasized (unless the majority has reached a Green/ sensitized centre of gravity), which will have an effect on minority psychology.

To address your other point: if one is raised in an extreme condition (to be one of the only or the only ethnic minority in one's neighborhood/ social context), the odds are higher that one's development will be skewed in an extreme way: either white-worshipping or white-washed (more likely) or ultra-Asianness, socially or politically (less likely). We would certainly consider these conditions sub-optimal; the best one could hope for here is that the white population is Green, which would not negate the increased probability for pathology/ fucked-upness, but would certainly reduce it.

So now we've considered media, as well as population size and its influence on media, and finally, the level of development of the populations. What else is there?

Mg, I'll address your points in another post.

[Charlie]

Excellent analyses. You guys should wikipedia this. Better yet, get some psychiatrist or psychologist to add their endorsement!

[SO_ANGRY]

I don't think many Asian women who date white hate themselves. Sure, I'm sure there are a few who do, but I don't think most hate themselves. I do think that the status of Whites and the media have to do more with the Asian's attraction to Whites.

Whites talk about how minorities are fighting for dominance over them, not equality. When minorities talk about how Whites are oppressing them, they reply with an answer like or similar to this: "What did I ever do to you?" They don't realize their White privilage. I don't hate whitey at all, and yes, there are double standards that exist. I can say cracker all the time and the moment a white person calls me a flip, he's a racist. I know there are double standards. I just want to clarify to those reading this that I don't hate White people.

The same thing can apply to males. Some say feminists are trying to fight for dominance, not equality. Some men can't see with their privilage of being a male blinding them.

Many Asian females who marry Whites aren't doing it because they're racist, but then again there are who do it because they're racist. Asian females can't see through their privilages as Asian females. They view themselves as pioneers trying to end racism by dating White. They've never been an Asian male so they can't see their Asian female privilage when it comes to dating.

That's what I think. I'm no Asian female who loves Whites only, but this is my insigh on the issue.

[Dialectic]

BEFORE I BEGIN, I WOULD LIKE TO STRONGLY EMPHASIZE THAT THE FOLLOWING THEORY APPLIES ONLY TO NATIVE ASIAN CCBS, NOT ASIAN AMERICAN ONES.

to distinguish, i will add an "N" before the acronym CCB. also, i am using the female to refer to CCB and male to refer to asiaphile because i'm a sexist, but it applies to both sexes.

i'd like to approach this first as looking at NCCBness and white asiaphilia as both sides of the same coin.

both are attracted to other cultures to the point of rejecting their own. both find aspects of their native culture as disappointing or disgusting or simply not a good fit. when it comes down to it, both the NCCB and the white asiaphile have problems with belonging and fitting in their own culture. superficially, they may appear to function well enough in their society, but on some deeper level, they are unable to connect to others or to feel like they "belong."

(I'm quoting simply to show whose post I'm responding to. I'd quote the whole thing but it's long.)

Thanks for such a substantial and considered post, mg.

Note that so far we've discussed primarily media and population (keeping in mind that everything is connected to everything else: economic power, political influence, etc.). These are systemic causes and factors: they come from the "outside" and can be externally measured and observed. Integral Theory would consider these Collective-Objective or "Lower-Right quadrant" discussions.

mg starts from another direction and starts with culture. She discusses how well one fits in. She discusses acceptance, rejection, and social norms and values. She is, in a sense, starting from the "inside." You can, for example, be in Japan, be eating their food, riding their trains, and buying their toy robots, but you can't fully participate in being Japanese, you can't even begin to be a part of their social and cultural interactions, until you undestand their language, values, and norms. This can only be done internally, via communication and mutual understanding. This is a Collective-Subjective or "Lower-Left" quadrant discussion.

mg is concentrating on NCCBs and does a good job describing the position of the white and Asian misfit. Certain types of cultural values are arbitrary: one is as good as another and none are "better": it's simply your preference. Finding a culture which "prefers" what you have to offer is no bad thing in itself. And if it that were the sole cause and effect of an individual's conversion to being a "CCB" we'd actually have a "benign" version, or really, someone who's not a CCB at all, but looks like one.

We can extend this discussion by imagining what it would be like to be a cultural misfit in North America. As B brought up above, that's easy to do: grow up in an all-white town. (Remember that it's a numbers game, and the four quadrants "tetra-interact": changes in one affect the other three)

Group-belonging needs are very strong in humans from childhood through the 20s. They may remain extremely strong thereafter, depending on how far development has gotten. Acting like your weirdo parents and following their weirdo traditions is not going to help you blend in or get you noticed in a good way. So you adopt norms, behaviors, and tastes of the dominant culture to minimize your misfit-ness, and besides, the culture is telling you you're doing the right thing. Indeed, the minority culture may be telling you you're doing the right thing, too, if your family's minds have been colonized.

Knowing this, it makes it a bit harder to hate them, doesn't it?

This is one small aspect of a cultural analysis. What other cultural factors are there? What are CCBs and white knights constantly saying about Asian cultures? What are they thinking, and why do they think that way?

Remember one cardinal tongue-in-cheek rule of Integral: no human mind can produce 100% error.

What are they saying that is correct, but perhaps only a partial understanding?

[blockthebox]

What other cultural factors are there? What are CCBs and white knights constantly saying about Asian cultures? What are they thinking, and why do they think that way?

Remember one cardinal tongue-in-cheek rule of Integral: no human mind can produce 100% error.

What are they saying that is correct, but perhaps only a partial understanding?


(1)(a) Patriarchal upbringing/family structure, e.g., CCB says her parents, especially father, were strict and overbearing. Possibly abused by parents/father. May have a bad relationship or look unfavorably on male sibling(s).

(1)(b) Patriarchal society/culture imposing restrictions on her autonomy as a woman, e.g., CCB goes to college, takes Womens' Rights 101 and determines that Asian culture does not comport with her newfound feminism.

(2)(a) Rejection by AMs, e.g., CCB could never get a date with an AM or was taunted by AMs for being ugly/fat/too slanty-eyed.

(2)(b) Failure of the AM to step up (a/k/a the Yellow Sausage Party), e.g., AMs are socially retarded, nerdy, and do not ask women out.

[maogirl]

*sigh* Chinese chicks with south-east Asian influence and perfect English ... nothing but trouble ....

you know it! :P


Thanks for such a substantial and considered post, mg.

8-)
i'm actually enjoying being an armchair theorist. now i know why people like to expound on shit so much. i need to lay a pipe or something. er...not that way. the other way.


Part of the purpose of this discussion was to talk candidly about those points that CCBs and conservative whites bring up about Asians which are TRUE. And we'll get to those.


This is one small aspect of a cultural analysis. What other cultural factors are there? What are CCBs and white knights constantly saying about Asian cultures? What are they thinking, and why do they think that way?


i actually think that this is a very important issue to discuss. CCBism and asiaphilia do expose some aspects of asian and white culture that need discussion.

however, i think we should take note that when foreigners make observations about asian culture, they often confuse objective observations with racially-inflected inferences.

for example: when white people say asian women are more submissive, this is not an objective observation, but a wrongful conclusion that arrives from a lack of proper understanding of observations.

to generalize, asian people (again, i'm excluding non-natives) place more value on group harmony and courtesy, as well as extending hospitality to others. this includes the sometimes unfortunate tendency to not allow others to lose face by "agreeing" with them or their demands (although not necessarily intending to fulfill any of them, another unfortunate tendency).

as you can see, i've already gone past mere observation to my own "explanations" about asian culture.

let me try a breakdown:

objective situation:
foreigner comes to asia and has dimsum with female colleague. female colleague always pours his tea, orders food for him, constantly asks him if he is okay, if he would like more food, etc.

foreigner's conclusion:
asian women are submissive and love to serve men.

asian woman's motive:
to be a good host according to asian customs.


and the reverse can be said about NCCBs and how they view white culture.

crap! i'm going to be late for my chai latte...see you all later...

[Dirac]

the NCCB, on the other hand, faces similar issues as the white asiaphile. she is unable to feel accepted or to belong in her culture, perhaps because she doesn't meet the beauty standard, or she has difficulty "conforming," and does not have the social or financial support to pursue her "non-conformity." NCCBs are often out of place in society and, like the white asiaphile, are unable to find mates who will accept their "eccentricities."

it is no coincidence that the NCCBs in asia are usually the uglier, fatter women, women who have "unusual" interests such as science fiction, women who are unable to find acceptable mates from their social pool and cannot "marry down," and so on.

I've only been in Taiwan for three years, so can't claim to understand things on a deeper level, but this is certainly what I see amongst my female friends here. All of them have told me in plain language that they are considered 'too fat' or 'too dark' by the majority of Taiwanese men they meet. These are women in their mid to late 20's who have never had a Taiwanese boyfriend. One girl went to Australia for six months and when she came back told me she was actively going to look for a foreign boyfriend because it was the first time in her life she had actually felt beautiful.

Some of the foreign asiaphile men I meet are looking for something exotic, not necessarily sexually but they feel their own culture is lacking something and fall in love with the whole new culture. They imagine they are really seeing the inside of the country rather than something superficial - the kind of people who say "No, I'm not a tourist, I'm a traveller."

The other asiaphile men IME tend to be the people who hate feminists, hate affirmative action, feel they got screwed over in their own country and are now finally getting the attention they think they deserve. They know it's much harder for someone not from their country to ascertain their educational level, intelligence, class etc.

[PianoLife]

1.Media
2.Molested By Father
3.Got Diss So Many Time By AM
4.Went to School and Grew up with Mostly White People
5.Father Abuse Mother While Daughter is Watching
6. The Joy Luck Club Movie

Nah JK with Number 6 or Am i?

so many CCBs told me "Eww that would be like dating my Brother"

so i think it's mostly Media every Movie Either has a White or Black Hero Nothing In Between so natural the hot AF want the Hero

[cattygurl]

EDITED!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been meaning to post, but my deadlines have prevented me from making very long posts. Before I post, I'll define CCBs as people that refuse to date within their ethnicity based on a negative and inferior association with their own ethnicity. I'm going to leave out the category of people that do so out of severe trauma, as I don't think it's as applicable (rape, incest, severe abuse cases) to my post at the moment.

I'm also focusing on the female aspect for now, will get to the male later.

This is part one and all I can muster for the moment.

I don't think JLC is as much of an influence as it is a reinforcement of certain underlying issues.

One of the issues I see in the AA community with outmarriage is the emphasis I've seen in a sizeable number of families on male children marrying the same ethnicity. That, in some ways, can translate to an internal limitation on marriage and dating for the men, especially when there is a strong focus on only dating within the nationality. With family ties and obligations being somewhat stronger in AA households vs non-AA households, I believe it add to the pressure being internalized in the male child. On the other hand, the emphasis on the female offspring regarding the race of the partner in some cases are not as strong- and in this case, parents seem to focus on the female child's partner being a capable provider and/or legitimate member of society. In some families, the male offspring has the burden of carrying the family pride and name. The female also carries this as well, but there's a focus on the female marrying into a situation that will add to it. For example, parents will be happy if both their kids end up as doctors with a great career. On the other hand, if the daughter chooses to stay home with her family after marriage, it's not as much of an issue with the parents most of the time, but if the male chooses to do so, it could cause some strain with his parents. Parents will proudly report about their kids having a good education and a career- both male and female. Parents of any race will often proudly report about a daughter marrying someone prestigious and important. On the other hand, there is an expectation for the male to be someone pretigious and or important, while the parents don't neccessarily focus on the achievements of the male child's wife as much as they would a female child's husband.

I don't think the emphasis on *who* a daughter marries is unique to the asian community, and same for the expectations placed on the male. In white communities, for example, I see an opposite trend- people seem more accepting of white males outmarrying and not white females. So the dynamic is slightly different in that white males are more likely to be more open about not limiting their choices of partners based on race or economic capacity, while females are not. So, CCB-ism is not simply one-sided on the side of the Asians, because there has to be an environment for the CCB to happen.


Another more simply possibility is this:

People generally go by a pattern of success. People also remember negative experiences and try to find patterns so they can prevent repeat mistakes.

Ex: An asian woman is asked out by 5 white men and has an OK experience with 4, bad experience with 1. Same asian woman gets asked out by 2 AMs and has bad experience with 1. So far, she has a 25% failure rate with WM and 50% with AM. Depending on the magnitude of negativity with the WM or the AM, and combined with any negative experiences with AMs/WMs outside of dating, she could choose to avoid AMs or WMs as a way of preventing bad experiences. This could apply to AMs with bad experiences with AFs. Many of the comments that I do hear is, "I'm through with asian men/women!" "I've dated Asians before and I just won't do it again!" I've found that those that grow up with a lot of asians (and have a positive experience) have enough exposure that they don't take a few negative experiences and apply it across the board.

[Dialectic]

Terrific posts, everyone. With a little more time, this thread will have become an excellent summary of the causes and effects of CCB-ism, and possibly one of the most comprehensive on the internet.

This, I think, is what I'll use the Integral Slanted forum to do from now on.

Cattygurl, you don't have to take time and make long posts. As a matter of fact, it might be preferable to make shorter ones here, as that will encourage participation; the most important thing is to have "seed" ideas for discussion/ contemplation.

Charlie, thank you for your compliment. Please feel free to add your own ideas.

SO_Angry, when I refer to self-hate, I don't necessarily mean that they hate themselves as individuals per se (though they will in general have some sort of self-esteem issues), but rather, they see thier race as somehow inferior or undesirable, and their self-identity is of course tied up with that. Other than this, I'm not sure how to address the rest of your post as I don't quite understand the central thrust; all I can say is feminism means a lot of different things to different people, male and female, and of course issues of white/ minority feminism are heavily related to CCB-ism.

Btb, you of course hit on exactly what I was trying to get at. Asians are also partially responsible for this condition, due to the unenlightened nature of certain social/ cultural values. The West did move ahead of the rest of the world in very important ways when it came to the development of rationality itself and the subsequent arising of the notions of gender equality and human rights. They just really, really fucked up along the way. Many CCB complaints are totally legitimate, and so we must also take responsibility and change what we can internally.

mg, I agree that what you are saying happens all the time. I also think, however, that there is a real submissiveness issue; it's just not as ubiquitous as whites might think. Feminism, the notion of gender equality in the mind, in mental capabilities, has progressed further in the West than anywhere else, where gender roles are more absolute and rigidified. (And it falls to us in the West to not be so courteous in the Eastern style so that we don't give the wrong impression.)

I will address Dirac, PL, cg in another post.

What else haven't we talked about yet? What about pure physical observations and criticisms? Some standards for beauty are relative and culture-bound: Western "beefyness," prominent brow ridges, a certain thickness and height of nose, and the like. What about universals? Do Asians lag in those?

[Dirac]

(Just comparing Taiwanese and English girls - nb by English I mean anyone who grew up in England, not necessarily white.)

A lot of basic attraction to Taiwanese women by western men I can understand. The majority of TW are slim, and even the larger women are pretty slim compared to EW standards. Recently I think the fashion is swinging towards shorter hair, but when I arrived the majority of young women had long hair, which is usually considered more feminine/attractive by men. I know schoolkids used to not be allowed to have hair below their shoulders so maybe this is a reaction to those rules.

Compared to EW, TW dress more elegantly. A lot more TW wear skirts, high heels, make-up than EW and this is also seen as more feminine. In fact, with regards to physical appearance, the most common comment I hear from western men is that TW are more feminine. The problem is they extrapolate what they consider feminine to include characteristics and personality, and that's when it runs into racial stereotyping.

I also imagine 'feminine' in some people's minds is equated with submissiveness.

[SO_ANGRY]

I read what I posted again, and even I don't know what the hell I've typed. The same day I posted this message, I also posted in the wrong threads in two different forums. I guess that day I posted was an off day or something. :shock: :shock:

[Logain]

I think it's a lack of initiative on the parent's part. Too many seem to want their kids to conform to Western values but at the same time are traditional in their children's upbringing which can be very confusing for one's self image I'd imagine.

[Tyger Durden]

1.Media
2.Molested By Father
3.Got Diss So Many Time By AM
4.Went to School and Grew up with Mostly White People
5.Father Abuse Mother While Daughter is Watching
6. The Joy Luck Club Movie

Nah JK with Number 6 or Am i?

so many CCBs told me "Eww that would be like dating my Brother"

so i think it's mostly Media every Movie Either has a White or Black Hero Nothing In Between so natural the hot AF want the Hero

Of the above, number 4 seems to be the cause of what I've encountered as "CCB"-ism.

but it depends on your environment. Yeah, i think it's an environmental thing i.e. "when in Rome, do as Romans do". Asians and Whites are more likely to share the same socio-economic backet/level with each other. There are more chances of "propinquity" or running into and encountering each other because of that, whether in the work place or at school.

AF are more likely to get a higher education and they are more likely to encounter WM in College/University environments and "Let's study together" becomes "Let's go out together" which becomes "Let's have a relationship".

Of course, there are "self-hate" issues because those same environments have abundance of AM as well, but from just looking around my environment, i see the "study buddy" scenario.

Of who is the intiator or "aggressive" person in creating those "study buddy" scenarios...um...i have to say the MALE is the one doing the initiating and in this case, the WM.

Just some thoughts.

[elliott20]

damn, I can't believe I didn't even notice this thread until today.

btw, Maogurl sounds so hot right now.

Anyway, once I organize my thoughts into something more coherent I'll try to contribute.

[Tyger Durden]

Before I post, I'll define CCBs as people that refuse to date within their ethnicity based on a negative and inferior association with their own ethnicity. I'm going to leave out the category of people that do so out of severe trauma, as I don't think it's as applicable (rape, incest, severe abuse cases) to my post at the moment.


that's an reasonable definition. Gets to the point.

[tkguy]

sorry for posting on an old topic. but I wanted to put in another perspective. Yes, I agree the asian American ccb perceive some aspects of the asian race as being inferior, but I think there's a bigger issue here. I believe the ccb are people with convoluted identities that allows them to love themselves but at the same time hate many aspects of the asian community, such as the men and its culture. Their identity is probably tied to the race of men that they perceive to be fit to be their mate. To claim that they have self-hate issues because they refuse to date asian men is to look at them from the perspective of a person with a strong asian identity. From their perspective they do not hate themselves. From their perspective they are not in an identity crisis. Because these people identify with the race of the men they think are fit to be their mate, dating asian men are abnormal to them. So vilifying them for not dating asian men is like putting down a white female for not dating asian men. So my point is that if you want to understand how an asian American ccb think then you must first start with their identity and realize that this is the pair of glasses through which they see the world. IMO their dating preference is a symptom and their identity is the true problem.

[Charlie]

What makes CCB's - my take:

1. Internalized racism (by both genders, including parents' generation)
2. Media
3. Lack of exposure to Asians (in cases where the CCB lives in the midwest or someplace like that).
4. Female emphasis on social status.

[Charlie]

5. Abundance of vocally self-hating CCB's to pattern themselves after.

[Dialectic]

sorry for posting on an old topic. but I wanted to put in another perspective. Yes, I agree the asian American ccb perceive some aspects of the asian race as being inferior, but I think there's a bigger issue here. I believe the ccb are people with convoluted identities that allows them to love themselves but at the same time hate many aspects of the asian community, such as the men and its culture. Their identity is probably tied to the race of men that they perceive to be fit to be their mate. To claim that they have self-hate issues because they refuse to date asian men is to look at them from the perspective of a person with a strong asian identity. From their perspective they do not hate themselves. From their perspective they are not in an identity crisis. Because these people identify with the race of the men they think are fit to be their mate, dating asian men are abnormal to them. So vilifying them for not dating asian men is like putting down a white female for not dating asian men. So my point is that if you want to understand how an asian American ccb think then you must first start with their identity and realize that this is the pair of glasses through which they see the world. IMO their dating preference is a symptom and their identity is the true problem.

There's no need to apologize. The topic's not finished, and in any case, at some point, I intend to summarize the points raised here and write an informal essay/ Feature on the topic (unless someone else wants to do it first!).

I agree with you that "self-hate" is not quite what certain ccbs suffer from; we (or at least, I) were simply using it as a sort of catch-all term.

Yes, in many cases, a ccb will identify very, very strongly with the white culture and perceive her own people as "Others" where she would not describe them as "her own people" at all, except perhaps in an ironic derogatory fashion. She can of course manage to have some skewed version of "Asian pride" and "Asian female pride" (we can talk about ccb males in another thread, but they're far fewer, for reasons just as complex as we're discussing here), and indeed, self-confidence. At the same time, she is aware, on some level, that she is not white, and she is shown this every day by her family, looking in a mirror, and generally not being able to fit in quite like a white girl, so she has to, consciously or unconsciously, reject the Otherness in herself.

And strictly speaking, this is not self-hate, though it is related.

What's interesting now is that we're delving into types of ccbs. There are those who explicitly reject Asian males and express disdain to their white, and indeed, Asian peers, and have all sorts of fucked-up beliefs and attitudes which are clearly pathological.

But you may also have another type which actually genuinely doesn't have a problem with Asians, male or female, gets along with everyone, but simply relates best to whites and as a result focuses her life around them.

[Dialectic]

What makes CCB's - my take:

1. Internalized racism (by both genders, including parents' generation)
2. Media
3. Lack of exposure to Asians (in cases where the CCB lives in the midwest or someplace like that).
4. Female emphasis on social status.

Something that I don't think anyone has quite mentioned yet, is the stereotype of Asian men being less attractive than whites or Blacks, at least by North American standards, and possibly even by "universal" standards.

This would be a bit of a hot-button topic on this forum, but it merits discussion.

The other day at lunch, I was talking to a cool Indian female colleague at work, and she mentioned how, generally, Asian females were more attractive than Asian males. To be frank, I agreed. I also pointed out, however, that this seems to happen in every culture/ ethnicity, at least partially as a result of patriarchy: men are in power, they don't have to look as good. (It's also related, in my opinion, to the nature of masculinity and femininity itself, where men tend to observe, analyze, and "penetrate" whereas women radiate, commune, and "envelop," but that's another lengthy discussion.)

The thing is, it's less likely you'll notice this with white people, because they're the "default" conception of what a person is and should be in North America, their norms are dominant, and they're in power.

And this of course relates to relative attractiveness: white North Americans have the power to define just what attractiveness is, and it's going to be them. This much is obvious.

At the same time, however, they do have a "universal" beauty advantage as a result of wealth and dominance: immigrants coming in are generally going to be in a poorer state mentally and physically, as are non-white in most parts of the world, lending some "truth" to the notion of whites being generally more attractive, but this can only be properly understood when the context of money and power is kept in mind.

[Dialectic]

5. Abundance of vocally self-hating CCB's to pattern themselves after.

Things brings up an interesting philosophical point.

Rupert Sheldrake proposed the idea of morphogenetic fields: that once a phenomenon comes into existence, it manifests a field which will influence other emerging phenomena to take a similar form. This can apply to physics, chemistry, biology, and upwards into systems and complex behaviors. We can call this effect "morphic resonance."

Put more simply, once something exists, it increases the probability of more of that thing existing.

When phenomena first arise, it is a result of unpredictable creative emergence: the universe complexifying and "winding up." Assuming that phenomenon isn't eradicated and continues to exist and manifest, then eventually, it will be predictable and taken as a given.

In the case of the pathology of the ccb, it has become an entrenched phenomenon, so predictable to be cliche. Given an Asian-American female, and given that she has identity issues related to race, there is an extremely high probability that she will act, walk, talk, and look like a ccb (as opposed to, say, some sort of Asian goth, geek, jock, etc. And as an aside, ccb's are generally visually and auditorily distinguishable from abc females who don't have identity/ esteem problems). The same goes for males, but in their case, they won't be white-chasing assholes, but rather, generally unassertive social losers.

[tkguy]

What's interesting now is that we're delving into types of ccbs. There are those who explicitly reject Asian males and express disdain to their white, and indeed, Asian peers, and have all sorts of fucked-up beliefs and attitudes which are clearly pathological.

But you may also have another type which actually genuinely doesn't have a problem with Asians, male or female, gets along with everyone, but simply relates best to whites and as a result focuses her life around them.

When I was younger I thought the second type of ccbís you described existed. However, after I got to know a few of them, I realized that they are just a more sophisticated and more eloquent version of the first type of ccbís.

[Charlie]

Yeah, the difference is moot. Like comparing a Klansman to a liberal white racist. The latter can do even more damage.

[poisenedrice]

What makes CCB's - my take:

1. Internalized racism (by both genders, including parents' generation)
2. Media
3. Lack of exposure to Asians (in cases where the CCB lives in the midwest or someplace like that).
4. Female emphasis on social status.

Something that I don't think anyone has quite mentioned yet, is the stereotype of Asian men being less attractive than whites or Blacks, at least by North American standards, and possibly even by "universal" standards.

This would be a bit of a hot-button topic on this forum, but it merits discussion.

The other day at lunch, I was talking to a cool Indian female colleague at work, and she mentioned how, generally, Asian females were more attractive than Asian males. To be frank, I agreed. I also pointed out, however, that this seems to happen in every culture/ ethnicity, at least partially as a result of patriarchy: men are in power, they don't have to look as good. (It's also related, in my opinion, to the nature of masculinity and femininity itself, where men tend to observe, analyze, and "penetrate" whereas women radiate, commune, and "envelop," but that's another lengthy discussion.)

The thing is, it's less likely you'll notice this with white people, because they're the "default" conception of what a person is and should be in North America, their norms are dominant, and they're in power.

And this of course relates to relative attractiveness: white North Americans have the power to define just what attractiveness is, and it's going to be them. This much is obvious.

At the same time, however, they do have a "universal" beauty advantage as a result of wealth and dominance: immigrants coming in are generally going to be in a poorer state mentally and physically, as are non-white in most parts of the world, lending some "truth" to the notion of whites being generally more attractive, but this can only be properly understood when the context of money and power is kept in mind.

Actually, I'm glad you brought this up D. We've all certainly heard CCBs and white people, such as Steve Sailor, say that Asian guys just aren't as attractive as white guys on average, so that topic needs to be explored if we're to arrive at the truth and progress as a community.

Now you've framed white people's attractiveness based on dominance and wealth, but I'd like to frame it in terms of pure physical aesthetics: are white and black guys just more attractive on a purely physical basis than Asian men? If you ask white guys like Steve Sailor, they would undoubtedly answer with a resounding "yes", and what they may point to is how white guys can travel all the way to Asia, not know a word of the native languages, customs, or mannerisms and can still get laid by lots of Asian girls. Actually, I think he did point that out in one of his pieces.

First though, let me define what makes a person physically attractive in order to establish a base to work from. Just based purely on the human face, I define a person to be physically attractive if his face is symmetrical and in proportions that fit Dr. Steven Marquadt's Beauty Mask (http://www.beautyanalysis.com/index2_mba.htm) relatively well.

Do white guys statistically fit the Beauty Mask more than Asian guys, independent of economic and social factors? Have hundreds of thousands of years of evolution of the human species somehow put Asian guys at a disadvantage to white guys when it comes to being attractive to the opposite sex? Unfortunately, I don't know enough of evolution or biological processes to answer that, nor do I have the tools or raw intellect to devise studies to even know how to find out.

My apology for engaging in some conjecture and eugenics, but if what CCBs and white people say about Asian guys actually has some undeniable scientific validity, then we're just fucked :-)

[poisenedrice]

5. Abundance of vocally self-hating CCB's to pattern themselves after.

Things brings up an interesting philosophical point.

Alfred North Whitehead proposed the idea of morphogenetic fields: that once a phenomenon comes into existence, it manifests a field which will influence other emerging phenomena to take a similar form. This can apply to physics, chemistry, biology, and upwards into systems and complex behaviors. We can call this effect "morphic resonance."

Put more simply, once something exists, it increases the probability of more of that thing existing.

When phenomena first arise, it is a result of unpredictable creative emergence: the universe complexifying and "winding up." Assuming that phenomenon isn't eradicated and continues to exist and manifest, then eventually, it will be predictable and taken as a given.

In the case of the pathology of the ccb, it has become an entrenched phenomenon, so predictable to be cliche. Given an Asian-American female, and given that she has identity issues related to race, there is an extremely high probability that she will act, walk, talk, and look like a ccb (as opposed to, say, some sort of Asian goth, geek, jock, etc. And as an aside, ccb's are generally visually and auditorily distinguishable from abc females who don't have identity/ esteem problems). The same goes for males, but in their case, they won't be white-chasing assholes, but rather, generally unassertive social losers.

Interesting, so if I understood correctly morphic resonance is somewhat like a feedback loop then? If so, I believe the very first *documented* CCB is discussed in Karen Kelsky's Women on the Verge (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/082232816X/qid=1150942695/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-7667407-2536906?s=books&v=glance&n=283155). The book was really boring, and white expats hate it, but I thought its main points mirrored a lot of the opinions at F44s when it comes to yokos and CCBs.

Erm, anyhow back to the topic. The aforementioned CCB grew up in America but spent her adulthood in Meiji Japan, which seemed to have been the perfect place at the perfect time in history to cause her to become the "Eve" of CCBs. Although her name escapes me, and no one would recognize her if mentioned, I'm of the opinion she was the genesis of your "morphic resonance" phenomenon, and once she set the precedent, the other dominoes fell in place, so to speak.

So how can we disrupt this phenomenon, this feedback loop? CCBs and yokojohns are the most single divisive issue among Asian American men and women, and if this feedback loop isn't minimized or completely stopped, I don't even want to speculate about the consequences.

[tkguy]

So how can we disrupt this phenomenon, this feedback loop? CCBs and yokojohns are the most single divisive issue among Asian American men and women, and if this feedback loop isn't minimized or completely stopped, I don't even want to speculate about the consequences.

The only effective way Iíve seen to change an asian American ccb or any asian American who rejects their racial identity is to send them to asia. Realistically speaking a person who gets to the point of rejecting their own kind is probably too far gone for one lone concerned asian to fix. But a nation of Asians can change the personís perception of his or her own race.

I tried to do some research on the psychology of racial identity but I canít seem to find much data on the subject of people adopting false racial identities. I think I found some thing on psychological false consciousness (PFC) but I donít think thatís related to this. All I can find is a lot of studies on mix race children and transracial families. They pretty much stress the importance of the child having a positive racial identity that is tide to their ethnicity. Think they stress the importance of the child having positive representation of their race from all age groups continuously interacting with them at all times. But this doesnít seem to provide any concrete help. But it does support the notion of sending the ccb to asia. I mean you have a nation of positive representation of their race.

I got creative and looked into cults and I found out the only effective way to get somebody out of a cult is to abruptly remove them from the social influences of the cult. So this once again kind of supports my first suggestion of sending the ccb back to asia. This also supports the theory I have that the non-asian friends the ccbís are around are probably behaving like a cult.

So there I think sending the ccb to asia will probably be a good solution to this problem. Well getting them on a plane will be difficult but probably easier than trying to get them to adopt an asian identity in a country that rewards them for rejecting it.

[Dialectic]

I just realized it was NOT Alfred North Whitehead who proposed morphogenetic fields, but rather, RUPERT SHELDRAKE. I replaced one with the other because I've been reading up a bit on Whitehead lately, and his notion of holonic "prehension" or "prehensive unification." I've corrected it in my previous post.

[kwak76]

I think it is complicated and it is not any one thing that causes self-hate or "CCBISM" or make version of ccb's.

It is a combination of things that we all know about. I used to try to figure out why we have ccb's but realize that there is no clear answer. You stay sane when you don't think about it and focus on things that you can do something about.

[Dialectic]

This thread is exactly about the fact that there's not one thing. There are a variety of factors, but they can still be addressed in a structured and comprehensive way. My intention here was not just to explore ccb-ism, i.e. the content, but also to provoke people into thinking more comprehensively, more "integrally" and to appreciate layered and complex analysis (i.e. get accustomed to the structure).

[kwak76]

One way of looking at ccbism is trying to find other types of it. For example if we want to look at it from a comprehensive point of view we need to see other examples of "ccbs".

There have been threads about black men seeking white women for the same reason why we see white men and asian women.

Once we see some similiar patterns we could guess the framework of how it develops.

We could discuss about the media influence , family , peer pressure , culture, etc, etc but I think the sexual nature of it plays a strong role.

[Charlie]

I thought I'd point out that the % of AA's who find whites more physically/sexually attractive than Asians far exceeds the population of CCB's and this is a better reflection on the sorry state of AA self image than just focusing on outmarriage rates.

There are tons of AF's and AM's who lust after whites and see them as the epitome of attractiveness, while dating and marrying Asians. They may have decided to "keep it real" on an intellectual level, perhaps out of family pressure, cultural familiarity or political awareness, but on a gut level, they see their dates and spouses (and themselves) as "second best". CCB's - the ones who have acted on these perceptions - are only the tip of this iceberg.

For example, my ex-gf's mom's comment that "sex with her AM husband isn't so bad - she just closes her eyes and thinks of Robert Redford". The AF trend of eyelid surgery. Or AM's who constantly oogle blondes.

This kind of dynamic creates a lot of dysfunctionality in AA relationships.

[little mixed girl]

i just scanned some of the replies, and some people have touched on this, but people should realise that the way females form relationships is complicated.

if you are in a smaller area, being a part of a group becomes that much more important. that's not to say that men don't care about groups, but with girls it's extremely hard to be a loner or 'different'.

and what goes along with that is who you're interested in.
if your friends are interested in a certain type, let's say A&F model type; then you might be intersted in that type too...just because they are and not really realise it.

society also has pressure on girls to be nice and conform. that means that you don't want to start fights and you want to go with the flow to be a "nice girl".

back to female relationships, that means that if you are interested in something and show your friend and she says "ew, you like HIM?", it's taken as something personal...as if you yourself have some kind of character flaw.

of course there are girls that will do their own thing regardless of what their friends think, but if you want to please your friends and you don't want to hear critical comments, you might change for that sake.

blah, blah, we all want to fit in and be accepted by someone, etc etc.

the end. :(

[kwak76]

To charlie,

I am curious about your comment. DO you find this trend of Asian American lusting after white ppl but keeping it real by dating or marrying other Asians to be something only within the Asian American community or do you think this also happens although to a lesser degree in the Asian community back in Asia?

[kwak76]

The reason why I wrote my last comment is because if this trend of "lusting after white ppl" is only found in the Asian American community but not really found in the Asian community back in Asia you have to point out the major differences between the situation back in Asia vs. the Asian Americans living here.

You mentioned about your ex-girl friend mom thinking about Robert Redford . I assume your ex-girlfriend mom is either a 3rd generation or 2nd generation Asians. If we had more romantic image of Asian men in the west I would image your ex-girl friend mom and matter of fact many moms dreaming about that romantic Asian man.

You have to look at where you grew up and what kind of influences and experiences you recieved. I think with ccb's you have to examine that and see a common pattern (If there is one.) and than you could actually say in a comprehensive many that this is what causes CCB's.

Location I think plays role in how you form your identity but I also seen CCB's back in Korea. People think that Koreans are very nationalistic and proud of their culture.

In general speaking I think they are but I seen and met enough Korean girls who are CCB's even in Korea. They go to expat bars or take any white guys that come along.

The situation that creats ccb's in America vs. ccb's in Asia has some differences but some common patterns. Some of the common patterns are Hollywood and how it reaches out to Asia and the fashion and marketing industry which likes to use white models even in Asia.

Language and culture. English is big in Korea. You got to speak it. Western music , culture and trends are big in Korea also. So being with a white guy maybe percieve as being hip or in the scene. We can't forget money and classism. I really think that class and race is assoicated.

You see in Asia I think the perception of whites are cool or top class where as here in America they are percieve as the norm.

[maogirl]

So there I think sending the ccb to asia will probably be a good solution to this problem. Well getting them on a plane will be difficult but probably easier than trying to get them to adopt an asian identity in a country that rewards them for rejecting it.


er...no. considering the amazing superability of asian americans to find the lone gweilo in a city of 6 million chinese people, that's not going to work. anyway, keep your assholes, i'm tired of having to listen to asians whining about how awful asia is while they cling on to gweilos/gweipos and emphasize how "american" they are.

[tkguy]

er...no. considering the amazing superability of asian americans to find the lone gweilo in a city of 6 million chinese people, that's not going to work. anyway, keep your assholes, i'm tired of having to listen to asians whining about how awful asia is while they cling on to gweilos/gweipos and emphasize how "american" they are.

Wow, you are probably right. I forgot that in asia the asian American ccb is not treated as a exotic sex object, but instead as a regular person. They will not get the intense attention from sophisticated white perverts like they do in the us. The thought of having a normal relationship that involves give and take will probably drive them to look for an asiaphile.

Anyway I still think for young Asians itís a great idea to send them to asia. I find that the Asian Americans Iíve met with the strongest asian identities are those who go back to asia regularly.

[poisenedrice]

Grrr, Maogirl is right as usual.

It's painful to admit, but when I was in Shanghai's Fudan University's international program for a month back in 2001, the other ABCs in my program were probably some of the most annoying fucktards I've ever met. They somehow managed to be even more annoying than the Red Coat crackers and American crackers, and that's an incredibly hard thing to do.

There was a clique of ABC chicks in my program that a classmate rightfully referred to as "The Bitches". Put simply, they were. Back in China/Taiwan, ABC girls no longer have status as "exotic babes" because to be perfectly blunt, quite often they are considered fat by Chinese standards, so no local guys would even think of hitting on any, and these girls were the norm, not the exception. Not to mention that none of us ABC guys were giving them attention, since the Shanghainese chicks were MUCH hotter.

Naturally, "The Bitches" were bitter about this, and would go out together, be fucking loud and obnoxious, make fun of FOBs and dragged along this nerdy white kid from Georgia, cuz he was the only one who didn't mind their Pilsbury Doughboy bodies or bitchy attitudes. [Note: I didn't even realize this about my past until I had an enlightening convo with MG]

The last I heard from them, all but one were currently dating or engaged to crackers :-).

Not that us ABC guys were any better. Being used to being devalued in American society, all of us (including myself, sadly) were on ego trips from suddenly becoming "normal". For myself at the time, it was gratifying that girls weren't looking or talking to me like I had leprosy. And being told I was "shuai" was flattering haha. For us as a group in the program, we were used to being emasculated in America, but now were all fronting like we were Smooth Operators (<---- clever reference to Paul Wall). Ugh, it was pathetic.

For those of you who go back to your respective motherlands, I highly recommend you hang out with locals. My friend and I would go clubbing with these two Indonesian cats, and they were fun as hell. We also hung out with a group of the Korean students and they were fun as well. Koreans drink like horses, but that fit with my alcoholic personality back then.

Sorry for the tangent, but here's the Cliff's Notes version:

-ABC chicks with CCB tendencies will most likely become even worse by going back to Asia
-ABC guys will be on an ego trip because now they are "normal" in Asia
-Hang out with native Asians
-Shanghainese chicks are bangin'
-Paul Wall is a Smooth Operator

[Synthetic]

well,

we should also examine the aspect of how we know the women or men that we are judging...

if we are walking down the street and see an asian girl with a white guy or an asian guy with a white girl, are we automatically saying CCB?....

cuz, u know, they could be adopted...

in which case, i don't think the traditional CCB rules apply....

[frogfoot]

I have to ask - what the hell does CCB stand for? I know it doesn't mean employee of China Construction Bank and I know it means sellout, traitor, twinkie and all.

But what are the actual english words for it?

[Synthetic]

CCB stands for...

Cracker Chasing Bitch..(bitch referring to both men and women equally)

[Dialectic]

We've gone off on a few tangents here, and a few irrelevant posts have been made, but they're interesting, so it's cool.

To re-orient: (a pun! :P )

We're talking specifically about pathological (i.e. fucked-up) Asian-American females who explicitly shun Asian males.

We have seen a variety of reasons for this: political, economic, social, media, cultural, even biological (I'll go into this further).

To add some structure to this discussion, I'm going to (re-)introduce the integral quadratic view.

It's very simple: any phenomenon, particularly those in the realm of human interaction, is composed of four "aspects."

The "scientific" or objective or outer world (biology, physics, chemistry, economics, systems science), and the "cultural" or subjective or inner world. These further break down into plural and singular: for example, my own values/ thoughts/ point of view, and the values/ thoughts/ point of view of my culture. Another example: them chemical composition of this tear gas, and the complex socio-political-economic system which created it and decided to use it.

KEEP IN MIND THAT ALL FOUR QUADRANTS TETRA-ARISE. THAT IS, THEY ALL ARISE TOGETHER, THEY ALL INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER, AND DISCUSSION OF ONE REQUIRES DISCUSSION OF ALL.

So, a short breakdown. What causes CCBs?

1. Individual-subjective.

Their own personal experiences give them an intrinsic bias toward whites and aversion toward Asians. The Asian males in their lives have, for various reasons, been unattractive on the physical/ mental/ cultural level, they've always felt more comfortable with whites, and their most positive feelings generally come with hanging out with white people, particularly in the sexual sphere, but possibly in all types of interactions. They generally did not decide to be this way, it just happened, and when they realize it (i.e. they can reflect on their own behavior), they come up with justifications which may or may not be strong, but are real to them. This doesn't quite address the why, but at least we somewhat understand what's happening.

2. Collective-subjective.

This deals with culture and language. First, the obvious stuff: the white culture is dominant in many ways: population, money, prestige, media, everything. Dominant is "cool," it always has been, it always will be (underdog is "cool" too, in a different way, and there's a reason they're underdogs). Anyone not considered a direct member of the dominant culture is at a disadvantage, is "less attractive."

The dominant culture is patriarchal. This means they'll at least except the females of the minority cultures sexually, whereas the males will not experience even this acceptance. Males of other cultures may actually be perceived, consciously or sub-consciously, as threats. This is well-known in post-colonial studies. White males are, in short, available and at the top of the food chain.

The dominant cultural norms will, of course, be seen as "normal." If one comes from a culture which conflicts strongly with these norms, risk of various types of identity crises increases, and may result in a rejection of the minority culture. Eastern and Western cultures clash on a number of levels, one of the most significant ones being individualism vs. collectivism, autonomous free-fending family members vs. filial piety. Another example could be in something as shallow as fashion and personal aesthetic sensibilities. Asian cultures place more emphasis on internal development (education and study, for example), than, generally, Black or white cultures. This alone accounts for much of the controversial idea that Asians may be less physically attractive than whites, at least among immigrant populations. Finally, there is being an immigrant itself. Being an immigrant, there is a higher probability you're poor, don't have a lot of resources of any kind, and there's generally a good reason you left wherever you came from. So now we're getting some of the poorest and most needy of the foreign populations, hardly a representative sample of "Asians" itself, and in all likelihood, they'll be, among other things, really unattractive. (This is of course changing as immigrants become more savvy and resourceful.) East Asians, particularly Chinese, are probably more adaptive than Blacks, Indians, or whites, (witness the materialistic Chinese pragmatism which abounds, which is only emphasized by becoming an immigrant), and so parents, without knowing, may pass a pathological set of these values to their kids, and their kids will see the most practical thing to do is to entirely shun their reject culture. These are but a few examples of many of the cultural considerations.

3. Collective-objective.

Whites rule the world. They rule economically, politically, militarily, scientifically, every "ly" you can find, and add media on top of that. This has a MASSIVE effect on all quadrants, something most of you probably already see. This is also the most-often cited quadrant of political Asians, shouting "media media media brainwashing!!!" at the tops of their lungs. As we've seen already, there's a lot more going on than that. I don't need this needs much more explanation on its own, but it does lead to ....

4. Individual-objective.

It could be, that on a chemical/ biological level, immigrant Asian populations, indeed, perhaps just Asian populations, are "less attractive" in some sort of absolute/ cross-cultural/ universal sense. Before I become the champion of white supremacists and CCBs everywhere, allow me to explain.

FIRST. THIS IS NOT AN INTRINSIC ASPECT OF BEING ASIAN. I AM NOT SAYING THAT ASIANS ARE INTRINSICALLY LESS ATTRACTIVE IN GENERAL. As a matter of fact, whenever I make any "orienting generalization" about a race, I am never making any intrinsic statement about the race itself. That is, in this case, I am not saying that Asians are, by their very nature, less attractive.

Okay, that's out of the way.

Let's go back to economic systems and infrastructure. The west has the most developed and wealthiest countries in the world. While they are experiencing a different sort of obesity mini-crisis now, it's still fair to say that they have the healthiest people in the world, and as a result, some of the most attractive, particularly when you take into account the fact that money makes people healthy, and money also makes them develop fashion and makeup and art industries. The Asian countries, with the exception of Japan, have not done so well in recent history. (And, not coincidentally, everyone loves Japanese chicks. Even if you don't necessarily agree that they're just hotter, you have to agree that they're certainly healthy and damn made-up.) Thus, if a lot of signs of good physical health and nutrition are absent, you're gonig to be less attractive, ESPECIALLY if you're surrounded by lots of good physical health and nutrition in another race. So EVEN IF you take out culturally-relative standards for beauty - blonde hair, double eye-lids, exaggerated muscles and breasts - there are still a lot of universal things to consider: nice skin, nice hair, nice breath, strength, suppleness, decent posture, perhaps symmetricity, and stuff like that. And white people are just going to have it more than Asians AT THIS POINT IN HISTORY, PARTICULARLY IN WHITE COUNTRIES.

(Or, in my pseudo-Black-Asian-comedian voice, "Have you seen the new immigrants in Chinatown?! Or even anywhere else? They're fucking ugly!!! And their breaths smell.)

Finally, this has been mentioned before, but I'll mention it again. Asian societies, like all major societies at the moment, are patriarchal. As such, it's not hard to see that the women will generally be more attractive than the men. They might be in better shape, they'll be better dressed, have better hair, and carry themselves in a nicer manner (part of this is also due to "femininity" as opposed to straight patriarchy, but we won't get into that), so this might be interpreted in a skewed way by a little immigrant girl: she's so pretty, the girls are all so pretty, and their dads and brothers and friends' sons are all so ugly and mama's-boy-ish and shy and rejected! We all know at this point, though, that there is a complex set of cultural, economic, etc. factors which account for that perception and whatever amount of that is reality.

I hope I've made a somewhat definitive statement here. Any further thoughts on this thread should build on this (and what's come before).

[wuwei]

Nice summary, though the weight of each contributing factor is a little confusing because you elaborated on some, while only summarized other, perhaps, more influential factors.

Finally, there is being an immigrant itself. Being an immigrant, there is a higher probability you're poor, don't have a lot of resources of any kind, and there's generally a good reason you left wherever you came from. So now we're getting some of the poorest and most needy of the foreign populations, hardly a representative sample of "Asians" itself, and in all likelihood, they'll be, among other things, really unattractive. (This is of course changing as immigrants become more savvy and resourceful.)

While there are Asian immigrants that come to America as refugees, but compared to other immigrant groups, I think immigrants from East Asian countries like China (Taiwan), South Korea, and Japan are mostly "merit immigrants" that came over either through educational advancement or as skilled labourers due to the restrictive immigration policy of the United States. This means, these people are actually the elites of their native countries, and in my experience with China, this generally holds true for legal immigrants, they are generally toward upper caste and are smarter/more attractive/more connections/richer than the average Chinese.

And if we were to examine a smaller setting, like in universities, where the refugee Asian population is basically non-existent, and all East Asians are immigrants through merit selection, or descendents of such. Given that these East Asians in universities are pretty much a pre-selected group of social elites, or descendents of such, wouldn't it make more sense for the Asian females to stay relatively within this group of pre-selected elites, rather than mingling with the whites, which is just the general population that did not go through a rather rigorous selection process that the Asians had to go through? In similar situations with white expats living in Asia, the overwhelming trend is that they will stay in their within their own self-selected group. The question begs as to why CCB'ness still runs rampant on university campuses across America? The obvious answer is that even the elites of East Asia rank lower than the whites in American society, and this is why Asian females will ditch their former ties with the Asian community to form new ones with whites. In my opinion, this fundamental disparity cannot be corrected through the regular course of civil rights activism purely within the frames of American society, but could only be corrected by elevating Asian society culturally, economically, and politically to be at the same level or a higher level than American society.

[toml]

Good points WuWei, but you have to realize that the merit-immigrants are nerds and geeks and we all know it's easier for a nerdy girl to get a guy than vice versa.

Also, I would say most of the merit-immigrants are NOT part of the social elite--they are there mainly because of their brains and how hard they work. In fact most of the merit-immigrants that I met were from average means.

So if we add another group of immigrants, the elite-immigrants, you'll see that they do tend to stick together (And when I say elite, I mean ridiculously wealthy or connected).


There seems to be several group of immigrants now:

1. Mail-order-bride immigrants - this is where most of the IR disparity comes in

2. Want-a-better-life immigrant - seems to be some disparity here but I think because of the general poor conditions, they tend to stick with those who share similar experiences. Example: restaurant workers.

3. Gansta-that-exploits-their-own-people immigrant - definitely stays within the community but they are the ones that are willing to sell the mail-order-brides and have no qualms about selling out, as long as the price is good. Example: well, gangetsers! And pimps and mama-sans, etc.

4. Merit-based immigrants - smart, but geeky and nerdy. Lacks quite a bit of social skill (even in Asia). This is were part of the FOB-stereotypes come in. There is definitely a disparity among this group because a lot of the members came here on purpose and intend to stay. Example: international college students.

5. 1.5-gen immigrants - often forced here by their parents. All of the 1.5-gen that I knew were actually quite popular back in Asia, but when they came here, because of the language barrier and cultural issues, were shunned and so the withdrew. This is where the other part of the FOB-stereotype come in. Depending on how young they are and where they move to, there is often a disparity in this group.

6. Elite immigrants - came here because their parents had money. Often they didn't do that well in school because they are so rich they don't need to be, but because they have money, they have no worries. (Also, average for an Asian is still good :)) No disparity on this level because when a guy is rich, things just come to him. Also, their families are social figures back in Asia.


(Obviously these generalizations and explanations are bit tongue-in-cheek so don't crucify me for this!)

[Dialectic]

Nice summary, though the weight of each contributing factor is a little confusing because you elaborated on some, while only summarized other, perhaps, more influential factors.

Thanks! My summary was not meant to reflect the weight of contributing factors, but rather, to emphasize certain factors to which factions of the extreme left (many of whom are on this board in one form or another) have denied or turned a blind eye. Also, major contributing factors such as, for example, media influence or social/economic status have been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere.

While there are Asian immigrants that come to America as refugees, but compared to other immigrant groups, I think immigrants from East Asian countries like China (Taiwan), South Korea, and Japan are mostly "merit immigrants" that came over either through educational advancement or as skilled labourers due to the restrictive immigration policy of the United States. This means, these people are actually the elites of their native countries, and in my experience with China, this generally holds true for legal immigrants, they are generally toward upper caste and are smarter/more attractive/more connections/richer than the average Chinese.

I don't think I made a statement that the majority of East Asian immigrants come as refugees. I think I did state that they may not have much when they come. Certainly, there exists a large population of merit immigrants, and this number has increased in recent years. At the same time, I wouldn't go so far as to call them the elites (true elites tend to stay where they are, as that's where their power base is), but I see your point. And while they certainly may be smarter, better connected, wealthier, and more attractive, remember that they're the (semi-)elites of less developed nations in terms of economy, politics, education, and overall cognitive/ moral development.

(This goes into another discussion which I won't get into here, but not all countries/ moral stances/ governments/ types of reasoning are equal, and the West is indeed "ahead of the curve" in a few ways.)

And if we were to examine a smaller setting, like in universities, where the refugee Asian population is basically non-existent, and all East Asians are immigrants through merit selection, or descendents of such. Given that these East Asians in universities are pretty much a pre-selected group of social elites, or descendents of such, wouldn't it make more sense for the Asian females to stay relatively within this group of pre-selected elites, rather than mingling with the whites, which is just the general population that did not go through a rather rigorous selection process that the Asians had to go through? In similar situations with white expats living in Asia, the overwhelming trend is that they will stay in their within their own self-selected group. The question begs as to why CCB'ness still runs rampant on university campuses across America? The obvious answer is that even the elites of East Asia rank lower than the whites in American society, and this is why Asian females will ditch their former ties with the Asian community to form new ones with whites. In my opinion, this fundamental disparity cannot be corrected through the regular course of civil rights activism purely within the frames of American society, but could only be corrected by elevating Asian society culturally, economically, and politically to be at the same level or a higher level than American society.

I generally agree with you here. As I did mention in my last post, whites rule the world, so they'll be the most prestigious and thus define what's normal and cool everywhere.

Incidentally, it's also important to mention exactly what generation and phase of immigration/ acculturation you're talking about when you discuss merit immigrants, university students, and others.

FOBs, particularly wealthier ones, will rarely mix and are happy to stick to themselves, particularly if they immigrate at the university age and older; the children of merit immigrants (or refugges), ABC/CBCs, are much more likely to experience identity crises; children who arrive when they're quite young, up to highschool, will experience more adaptive difficulties, etc.