How and Why we Manage 44s

[Dialectic]

[In case you missed it the first time:]

Lopan and I, we are the only people who run this shit. Just me and him. Design, administration, editing, writing, illustration, correspondence, interviewing, everything, just me and him.

(With forum help from our lovely mods of course. Thanks mods!)

Many of you don't appreciate just how much time and energy this shit is. This shit takes hours, particularly when we're just setting things up (Gallery, exclusives, interview process). We consider this our little community service, our little volunteer work to help the world be a bit better.

Now, your appreciation, I don't really give a shit about. You can appreciate and show love or not. I don't care. But what I do give a shit about is some modicum of respect: for both the rules of this forum and for other members.

YOU ARE ALL TOLD UPFRONT HOW WE OPERATE IN THE DECLARATIONS AND THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. Most of you have been around long enough to know what this place is about.

YOU ARE EXPECTED TO GODDAMN FOLLOW THESE GUIDELINES.

You think you're doing us some sort of favor by being here? Fuck you. WE ARE DOING YOU THE FAVOR BY LETTING YOU BE HERE. We don't give a goddamn how many readers we have or who they are. So until you start paying us for the privilege of being here, fuck you.

Me and Lopan, we don't do all this fucking work to come online and see you little pissant shits pissing all over the threads 'cause you love the smell of your own urine. You know how it feels to do all this, and to come online and have some little dumbfuck post some annoying ignorant shit 'cause he thinks he's an entitled little punk? This forum's not worth it. It's not worth it at all.

LAST WARNING TO THE ENTIRE GODDAMNED FORUM. You behave yourselves, and you ACT LIKE RESPECTFUL ADULTS, or you and your IP are gone, no warning, no nothing.

[Dialectic]

So come on. Anyone want to debate the merits of how we run this forum? Anyone want to see just how strong their reasoning actually is?

Come on. One last time, for old time's sake, before I never engage again. 'Cause I'm sick of this bullshit. Sheki thinks 99% of you are idiots, and I'm inclined to agree. You helped drive Tojo away, and EG thinks you're all the biggest losers of the entire human gene pool.

Tell me they're wrong. Can you do this? Is this a defensible truth? 'Cause I have the very strong suspicion that it is not. That maybe only a small fraction of you are worth communicating with.

If you've got something to say on how our site philosophy should change, on how our site/forum management should change, tell me here. I'll listen if it's reasonable and if you have something significant to say. I'll respond with respect and intelligence. But if it's not, if you reveal that you're as big an idiot as many of my friends and fellow Founders think you are, then that's it.

So come on. What are we doing wrong?

[Fandango]

Is part of this due to my posting of nature's most beautiful and artistic masterpieces--the female nude? I did make sure with painstaking photo manipulation that any direct nipplage view by prepubescents or 20 year oldish virgins was prevented. :D

[ellencho]

What's your obsession with nipples anyway? Mother issues?

[xian]

Frank and I were talking about this last month. I won't try to speak on his behalf, so he can post his perspective later if he wants.

The big thing we found was that there was just not enough substantive assignments for members. Because these days, for better or for worse, people tend to focus on the forums entirely, we spend an inordinate amount of time just rubbing people's egos and letting people vent.

I understand that providing that outlet for Asian Americans is a major part of the site, but as you've said yourself, there is a risk of that being just pathological.

We all have those friends that "seek advice" but in the end, learn nothing and grow older, but not wiser. People around them end up feeling drained around them and it's basically a big waste.

I understand that 44's is not meant to be an activist site. It would just be nice to see some steps to help people empower themselves in their own lives. One thing that I think would help is if the founders were a little more open about their own lives. I think when you all speak sometimes, it sometimes comes across as condescension since you are just some grinning avatar's behind the keyboard.

The average struggling person is happy to vent, but when you offer them your insights, or proscribe positive change for their lives or just call them out, they are often like, "Who the fuck are you to say that?"

This is especially the case when some of your posts are so self-congratulatory and demeaning towards others. There's a rule in teaching--you never congratulate your own effort while writing the students off as morons.

I'm really making an effort to show gratitude in this post since I know how much you've put into this community. But you asked for constructive criticism, so I'm going to take you at face value and provide some. I mean no disrespect of any sort.

[Fandango]

What's your obsession with nipples anyway? Mother issues?

If I had it my way, I'd expose the whole breast in all its glory. I don't have an obsession with nipples. I have an obsession with the whole woman.

[ThatsJustSick]

So come on. Anyone want to debate the merits of how we run this forum? Anyone want to see just how strong their reasoning actually is?

Come on. One last time, for old time's sake, before I never engage again. 'Cause I'm sick of this bullshit. Sheki thinks 99% of you are idiots, and I'm inclined to agree. You helped drive Tojo away, and EG thinks you're all the biggest losers of the entire human gene pool.

Tell me they're wrong. Can you do this? Is this a defensible truth? 'Cause I have the very strong suspicion that it is not. That maybe only a small fraction of you are worth communicating with.

If you've got something to say on how our site philosophy should change, on how our site/forum management should change, tell me here. I'll listen if it's reasonable and if you have something significant to say. I'll respond with respect and intelligence. But if it's not, if you reveal that you're as big an idiot as many of my friends and fellow Founders think you are, then that's it.

So come on. What are we doing wrong?

Okay, so you provided a site for us to convene. Good for you. But does that give you the right to insult and disrespect us? I don't give a fuck if you're an asian martin luther king. Nothing you do gives you the right to insult or disrespect us. My mama didn't raise me so a little punk like you can insult me. I've respected you and have been civil with you the whole fucking time. But you think it's your god given right to come at us with that bullshit. Well fuck that. And fuck you too. You wanna make up bullshit rules. Okay fine. You want us to call you sir? Whatever makes you happy. You want us to say "mother may I" every time we post? Watever, it's your fucking site. You can do whatever the fuck you want. But don't go disrepecting us and expecting us to take it like little fucking bitches just because you created this website. That aint in my nature to accept shit like that. That shit wasn't in "Declaration of Intent".

Whassup 44s, this is now our little official guide to the content and structure of this forum. You'll notice that this is almost identical to what I post when I welcome someone, and yup, I've done it deliberately because I think this is an important little guide to read.

Our forum is composed of five categories, each with its own theme and function.

1) The first category, "You're in Bed with the Bad Luck Bunch" focuses on the community and the website itself. In Declarations of Intent we describe our philosophy and management practice, and it's very important that you read our vision and stance. Rules of Engagement contains guidelines for the type of posting we want to see here: if you don't have the time or the inclination to read the threads themselves, then at least read the subject headings to get an idea of what we do and do not allow. Dramatis Personae is a forum for members to introduce themselves and get a big warm welcome, and you now have access to Sleeper Cells, where you can check if fellow 44s are organizing any parties and gatherings in your area. Wetwork is the place to ask questions and offer comments on the website itself. You'll also get an introductory glimpse into the hearts, minds, and everyday experiences of both the Founders of this site and its members.

2) The second category, "All beings without number I vow to liberate," is my personal favorite: it's the place where 44s help each other become better people. In the Afterparty forum we discuss the themes, style, structure, and content of our Feature pieces. No End to the Struggle calls attention to issues of advocacy and equality which need your support; in Omega Attractors you may share or help support the achievement of personal goals and aspirations; and in Integral Slanted we discuss the more complex aspects of Integral Theory and Practice, the principles of which we use to develop this site, and on which I conduct my life.

3) The third category, "The Beauty of All Forms," discusses Art in its myriad and infinite forms of expression. This is, quite frankly, the primary reason why The Fighting 44s was formed: to show the world the beauty and horror and elegance and brutality of what we see, so that we may all recognize the great humanity and depth in one another.

4) The fourth category, "Let a hundred flowers bloom," distributes information and analyses of events, patterns, and systems in the functional world. Here you may discuss world events, politics, media, and personal experiences not necessarily related to growth or aspirations.

5) The fifth and final category, "The 44 Movements of Righteous Fist," is the space for the purest expression of your particular worldview and life philosophy: whether that is nationalist, pluralist, ethnocentric, or worldcentric. You now have access to The Palchisan Realm and The Kuraltai, where the various intellectual and moral "Houses" of the Fighting 44s express their thoughts.

If you have any more questions or concerns, please give the appropriate forums a read, and feel free to post, private message, or email someone here to clarify your understanding of what we are about. Thanks for joining!

There ain't nothing in there that says we can't talk about asian elements in 1, 2 or 3 and that we have to limited ourselves to 4 and 5. So dude, check yourself before you go making an ass out of yourself. Please! Do us this one favor. And stop crying for god sakes. You look like a little bitch!

Don't start a fire if you can't handle the heat.

[Dialectic]

Fandango, this has nothing to do with you.

Xian, I get your point. Here's the thing: we did do what you were talking about with regard to teaching, remember? We used to write great big long posts detailing all our thoughts and stances and feelings, and what was the effect? Not a heck of a lot. We got a few good mods, made a few good acquaintances, and the idiots remained idiots. We were shouting at brick walls.

As for more transparency in our own lives, do you know the risks we'd be taking there? We are not academics. We are not social activists. We are not hippies and actors. We risk our employment, we risk our friendships, we risk our artistic and business ventures, and the way some of these guys talk, we may even be risking our safety, to say nothing of our equanimity and peace of mind. And hey, we might do that, if the risk/reward ratio was a good one. But what's the reward? Almost nothing. Everyone who deserves to know a bit more about us does. As for the rest? There is no incentive.

Now with regard to how we interact now? I've said pretty much everything I have to say. It's all here, in the forums. It's all either stickied or announced or in the Features or in the introductory and Founders forums. If people really want to learn from and interact with me and the other Founders (which they for the most part don't), all they have to do is read the relevant posts and respond to them. But most are here to wallow, most are here to vent. So all we do now is go in and make either quick insightful posts or quick joke posts, because that's all the time and energy and patience we have.

What more can we do? People will post and talk about what they will. I can't force more artistic posts, more posts on Features, more posts on creating positive and lasting change. This is it. This is the best it gets.

I appreciate the effort to show gratitude.

[Dialectic]

Okay, so you provided a site for us to convene. Good for you. But does that give you the right to insult and disrespect us? I don't give a fuck if you're an asian martin luther king. Nothing you do gives you the right to insult or disrespect us. My mama didn't raise me so a little punk like you can insult me. I've respected you and have been civil with you the whole fucking time. But you think it's your god given right to come at us with that bullshit. Well fuck that. And fuck you too. You wanna make up bullshit rules. Okay fine. You want us to call you sir? Whatever makes you happy. You want us to say "mother may I" every time we post? Watever, it's your fucking site. You can do whatever the fuck you want. But don't go disrepecting us and expecting us to take it like little fucking bitches just because you created this website. That aint in my nature to accept shit like that. That shit wasn't in "Declaration of Intent".

I thought you were leaving, TJS?

Did I direct my post personally to you? If you've been respectful the whole time, what makes you think what I'm saying has any relevance to you? This doesn't make sense. If you've been respectful the whole time, if you've read and understood the Declarations and Rules, then my post was most certainly not directed at you. This makes no sense. As for your rhetoric, did I make any mention of "sir," "mother may I," being Martin Luther King, or making up bullshit rules just for the fun of it? You think I enjoy doing this? I hate this. I hate admin and moderation. I hate the bad karma this shit creates. But this is the only way some people on this forum listen. They don't listen to anything else.

You also don't know the history of this site. You don't know the bullshit we put up with. You don't know how many crazy bastards we tried to reason with over the forum, email, PM, just how much pathological shit is out there, and just how CYCLICAL this forum is. The bad shit keeps coming back, and this has become completely unacceptable.

There ain't nothing in there that says we can't talk about asian elements in 1, 2 or 3 and that we have to limited ourselves to 4 and 5. So dude, check yourself before you go making an ass out of yourself. Please! Do us this one favor. And stop crying for god sakes. You look like a little bitch!

Don't start a fire if you can't handle the heat.

Thanks for quoting my own little guide back to me. You've unfortunately misinterpreted my whole directive. I've said nothing about not being able to talk about Asian elements in 1,2,3. I said we don't allow pathological fixation. I said that a conversation like this can't happen:

Person 1: I liked the cinematography and pacing in Harry Potter. The music was great too, but some of the acting was spotty.

P2: There was an Asian! How much was she in it?! Was she with a white boy? If so, that sucks! Harry Potter is shit! Fuck Harry Potter!

Person 1: Yeah there was, and she was in it for like two minutes, and the presence is no big deal either way, and at any rate, I really liked the score too, and while some of the acting was a bit too melodramatic, some was very subtle and nuanced. I particularly liked the development we see in Ron and Harry.

P2: FUCK WM/AF. FUCK THAT BULLSHIT. Oh yeah I haven't seen the movie. Why can't people put more Asians in movies? And why can't they be guys? Fuckin' CCB bullshit. Fuck that.

Do you see what I'm saying? You call this a legitimate discussion with any depth or direction? We can't have people fixate. It's irrelevant to a thread like that. And you CAN fixate in 4 and 5 anyway. That's what they're there for.

It's like a bunch of scientists putting up an astrophysics forum, and one guy keeps posting about how the world is flat and the stars are big glittering god-lights stuck to spheres in the sky. Yup, it's relevant to the discussion. Yup, he sure has the right to discuss that shit somewhere. BUT NOT THERE.

As for the guide, no, there is not much that explicitly states what you can and cannot state in every forum and every category (of course, we DO say in the Rules that we limit bitching about the IR disparity). Putting together a document like that is ridiculous. It's a drain on my time and energy, barely anyone's going to read it, and I expected readers to be able to get some sort of feeling for what is appropriate where. I actually had a big post and thread detailing the purpose of the Beauty of All Forms category, but I took it down after it got old because I figured people got the point. I suppose this is my deficiency, but I didn't think I needed a strong outline describing the purpose of every damn forum. And I also figured that people would listen to mods, especially if their names were right underneath the forum. Again, then, my expectations were too much to ask for.

TJS, I have written responses like this a thousand times. I have written them to people who are angrier, calmer, smarter, dumber, more respectful, less respectful than you. Is this worth it? For me to repeat myself, spend 20 minutes writing something and hours just contemplating the goings-on in the forum, to have these threads and posts disappear, to have to deal with this again and again? I don't think I'm asking for much. Don't fixate in the forums. These are not forums for our narcissism. These were supposed to be forums that made us better.

44s was supposed to be about taking our weaknesses and insecurities and turning them into strengths. It was supposed to be about showing the world how cool and witty and smart and capable we are, shooting the shit, and having a bit of fun. Instead, many of the members here, the ones my first post was directed to, they do the exact opposite. Look at some of these guys: abusing whites, abusing women, abusing themselves. It's fucking sickening. They make us small, they make us petty, they make us weak. And I've had enough. I've dealt with it continuously for a year. And I have had enough.

When we first started this, we thought whatever audience we built would "get" our work. They would see our ultimate purpose - that is, to say some inspiring things, to say some funny things, to have some fun and go out and make our lives better - and they would understand the importance of keeping some sort of perspective. Instead, we were SHOCKED at some of the responses we received. They were fucking crazy, fucking pathological: people who wrote in emails, PMs, posts saying how they hated whites, hated hapas, hated Asian females, how they wanted to create some sort of Asian American constitution, how we somehow have it WORSE than blacks or natives, how "CCBs" (a term we didn't mean to use regularly as part of any sort of lexicon) deserved to be raped or killed or abused. Can you imagine what we thought and felt? It was disgusting, stupid, and ridiculous.

Do you think my first post was directed at this whole forum? Do you think it was directed at people like ellencho, The Infamous Grouse, da Tao, B the Student, JadeDragon, people who really get what we're doing? No. It was directed at the people who just don't get it. The people who will in all likelihood wallow in their own filth for the rest of their lives. Almost anyone with any healthy balanced lives and mentalities don't stick around here. Those who do stop making significant posts after a while, because they realize what I realize. We get for the most part the deranged internet freaks who we try to have compassion for, and who end up exhausting our patience and energy. Once again, I have had enough. I don't like being the admin for a forum like this. But I can't just leave it on the site and not take an active hand, nor do I want to take it down and destroy what sense of community we've built. So what can I do? The only thing that makes sense within these constraints: put a dead, hard stop to all the assholes and idiots who don't get it.

Have you seen Team America? The analogy they use is apt. This forum is filled with dicks, pussies, and assholes. The people who transcend that, who are able to see through that, are few and far between. Dicks, pussies, and assholes. And in a way, that's a compliment, because Team America was referring to people who do things in the world, not just internet addicts. I've had my fill of them. They'll keep coming, sure, and there's nothing I can do about that, but I can at least implement a few rules and commit a few actions which will minimize their dickness, pussiness, and assholeness. Either that, or it will decimate the participation in the forum, something I and the fellow Founders don't really mind.

In conclusion? I don't insult people who don't deserve it. And I don't make personal attacks first. People attack me. People attack me out of the blue for making pretty damn neutral comments or issuing pretty damn neutral directives. I get attacked in content and in tone for posts that have no sort of malice or adversarial tone at all. I don't need this. And I don't need to read a bunch of whining every time I log in. My message to members? Make yourselves better or shut the fuck up.

[silkie]

I personally don't think anything was handled incorrectly per say- the site, which is essentially an organic entity comprised of people of diverse beliefs, tends to go through ebbs and flows. There is a period from time to time when you have to reign everybody in from self destruction (it reminds me lots of my current project keeping control of all the sub-contractors). The question here is how much more can D and Lopan deal with this.

It has been almost 2 years since the site started hasn't it? I had an inkling that keeping people in check can get tiring, but D, this thread made me realize how fragile things are. All things eventually has to end (or someone else to takes over). I will miss it a lot if you ever decide to disband it.

That being said, the main issue here is what are we all getting out of this place. From my observation, the 44 community is still relatively insular at this point. It was created with the intent of gathering like-minded people together. That has been achieved--we currently have a core group of regulars that keeps the discussion going. D and Lopan have also made the effort to invite guest featurers (ie: snacky and masia). Nonetheless, because we have little contact beyond our community, I feel the members spend most of our energy fighting amongst ourselves and calling each other out. Whenever a post gets started, you can always count on someone jumping in and start flailing. We are like a litter of german shepards trained for war, but because we are in the same cage for too long without any battlefield action, we start to chew each other outinstead of making a direct impact outside.

But if we are to make change, we have to start reaching out to others. I hope I am not being presumptuous in suggesting this, because I am sure the guys who started this site have most likely touch on this. But I would like to point out an example of what I see as a very promising direction for this site. Recently, a heated discussion has been started in regards to Gray's Anatomy's lack of straight Asian male represenation. The way we've left it, someone will get a hold of Tojo to get the writer's info, while Xian was appointed to draft a letter to her addressing this issue. I think if this actually flies, it will be phenomenal to actually work together to make ourselves heard. Most people are not aware of the things bugging us until we explicitly point it out to them.

Also, I've started listening to a PODcast called Addicted to Race (www.addictedtorace.com) . They address similar issues to what has been discussed here, but not as eloquent and deep as some of what we see here. My idea in this instance is to contact them and ask if we can participate in an interview with them--they've recently ran a long phone interview with (Phil Yu aka angry-asian-man), and the issue on gender disparity was raised, he, being the gentleman he is, didn't vere far from just general observations. I can tell he wants to say more, but Angry Asian Man has different role to pursue. We would've fit in better to address this topic.

What got me thinking about this is that the recent features are really good, and, as I noted in the relevant thread, worthy of university level reading assignments. This is solid evidence that we have a lot to offer other than crazy rants about CCBs. It will be great if we can actively make our goals known to the public, rather than having them come here and misinterpret us as a bunch of militant whiners.

I think we are at a difficult point, but I am already seeing the light at the end of the tunnel...

[Dialectic]

I personally don't think anything was handled incorrectly per say- the site, which is essentially an organic entity comprised of people of diverse beliefs, tends to go through ebbs and flows. There is a period from time to time when you have to reign everybody in from self destruction (it reminds me lots of my current project keeping control of all the sub-contractors). The question here is how much more can D and Lopan deal with this.

Like forum members, clients and subcontractors are usually some of the most frustrating beings to interact with on the face of the planet. This is why when one gets that client/subcontractor who is awesome and great to work with, one appreciates how rare a gift s/he is.

It has been almost 2 years since the site started hasn't it? I had an inkling that keeping people in check can get tiring, but D, this thread made me realize how fragile things are. All things eventually has to end (or someone else to takes over). I will miss it a lot if you ever decide to disband it.

About 1.5 years. I appreciate your thought; it has crossed my mind to just end the forum completely and continue with the rest of the site, but on the balance I think this is a good thing to have.

That being said, the main issue here is what are we all getting out of this place. From my observation, the 44 community is still relatively insular at this point. It was created with the intent of gathering like-minded people together. That has been achieved--we currently have a core group of regulars that keeps the discussion going. D and Lopan have also made the effort to invite guest featurers (ie: snacky and masia). Nonetheless, because we have little contact beyond our community, I feel the members spend most of our energy fighting amongst ourselves and calling each other out. Whenever a post gets started, you can always count on someone jumping in and start flailing. We are like a litter of german shepards trained for war, but because we are in the same cage for too long without any battlefield action, we start to chew each other outinstead of making a direct impact outside.

Good point. I'm not sure how "trained for war" people here are, but they could certainly apply their energies to better effect elsewhere.

But if we are to make change, we have to start reaching out to others. I hope I am not being presumptuous in suggesting this, because I am sure the guys who started this site have most likely touch on this. But I would like to point out an example of what I see as a very promising direction for this site. Recently, a heated discussion has been started in regards to Gray's Anatomy's lack of straight Asian male represenation. The way we've left it, someone will get a hold of Tojo to get the writer's info, while Xian was appointed to draft a letter to her addressing this issue. I think if this actually flies, it will be phenomenal to actually work together to make ourselves heard. Most people are not aware of the things bugging us until we explicitly point it out to them.

I agree. If anyone wants to contact Tojo, just shoot him a PM. He logs in every so often.

Also, I've started listening to a PODcast called Addicted to Race (www.addictedtorace.com) . They address similar issues to what has been discussed here, but not as eloquent and deep as some of what we see here. My idea in this instance is to contact them and ask if we can participate in an interview with them--they've recently ran a long phone interview with (Phil Yu aka angry-asian-man), and the issue on gender disparity was raised, he, being the gentleman he is, didn't vere far from just general observations. I can tell he wants to say more, but Angry Asian Man has different role to pursue. We would've fit in better to address this topic.

I'm not sure we'll ever get to be as well-known as him. You have another good point: 44s is also about preparing yourself for those times (rare or not, depending on where you are) when you will have to stand up for race-related issues and represent you and your people.

What got me thinking about this is that the recent features are really good, and, as I noted in the relevant thread, worthy of university level reading assignments. This is solid evidence that we have a lot to offer other than crazy rants about CCBs. It will be great if we can actively make our goals known to the public, rather than having them come here and misinterpret us as a bunch of militant whiners.

These are a bunch of good essays to use to introduce people to relevant issues. Please send the links to them far and wide!

I think we are at a difficult point, but I am already seeing the light at the end of the tunnel...

Not sure about the light thing, as these mini forum trends are pretty cyclical, and dumb Asians are just as bad as dumb white people; it sort of comes down to one's abiding attitude toward things as opposed to concrete developments/ trends. I'm going to be taking a distanced stance from the forums; I'll still be logging in and checking stuff out and posting occasionally, but my work on 44s should be focusing on Features and Exclusives.

Thanks silkie; I really appreciate your post.

[Dialectic]

This is a great little summary here of the type of problems we've faced, from one of the founders of Wikipedia.

Original article here: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/12/30/142458/25

Second problem: the dominance of difficult people, trolls, and their enablers. I stopped participating in Wikipedia when funding for my position ran out. That does not mean that I am merely mercenary; I might have continued to participate, were it not for a certain poisonous social or political atmosphere in the project.

There are many ways to explain this problem, and I will start with just one. Far too much credence and respect accorded to people who in other Internet contexts would be labelled "trolls." There is a certain mindset associated with unmoderated Usenet groups and mailing lists that infects the collectively-managed Wikipedia project: if you react strongly to trolling, that reflects poorly on you, not (necessarily) on the troll. If you attempt to take trolls to task or demand that something be done about constant disruption by trollish behavior, the other listmembers will cry "censorship," attack you, and even come to the defense of the troll. This drama has played out thousands of times over the years on unmoderated Internet groups, and since about the fall of 2001 on the unmoderated Wikipedia.

Wikipedia has, to its credit, done something about the most serious trolling and other kinds of abuse: there is an Arbitration Committee that provides a process whereby the most disruptive users of Wikipedia can be ejected from the project.

But there are myriad abuses and problems that never make it to mediation, let alone arbitration. A few of the project's participants can be, not to put a nice word on it, pretty nasty. And this is tolerated. So, for any person who can and wants to work politely with well-meaning, rational, reasonably well-informed people--which is to say, to be sure, most people working on Wikipedia--the constant fighting can be so off-putting as to drive them away from the project. This explains why I am gone; it also explains why many others, including some extremely knowledgeable and helpful people, have left the project.

The root problem: anti-elitism, or lack of respect for expertise. There is a deeper problem--or I, at least, regard it as a problem--which explains both of the above-elaborated problems. Namely, as a community, Wikipedia lacks the habit or tradition of respect for expertise. As a community, far from being elitist (which would, in this context, mean excluding the unwashed masses), it is anti-elitist (which, in this context, means that expertise is not accorded any special respect, and snubs and disrespect of expertise is tolerated). This is one of my failures: a policy that I attempted to institute in Wikipedia's first year, but for which I did not muster adequate support, was the policy of respecting and deferring politely to experts. (Those who were there will, I hope, remember that I tried very hard.)

Consequently, nearly everyone with much expertise but little patience will avoid editing Wikipedia, because they will--at least if they are editing articles on articles that are subject to any sort of controversy--be forced to defend their edits on article discussion pages against attacks by nonexperts. This is not perhaps so bad in itself. But if the expert should have the gall to complain to the community about the problem, he or she will be shouted down (at worst) or politely asked to "work with" persons who have proven themselves to be unreasonable (at best).

Given the work we've put in, the things we have said, and the relative success of this site, you would think that people might defer a little bit to the operational opinions of Lopan, Tojo, and I (and even the mods), but no, it doesn't seem to happen. So I'm forced to adopt an authoritarian guise, although, for those who can understand this, hopefully in an integral manner.

This lack of respect for expertise and authority also explains the second problem, because again if the project participants had greater respect for expertise, there would necessarily be very little patience for those who deliberately disrupt the project. This is perhaps not obvious, so let me explain. To attact and retain the participation of experts, there would have to be little patience for those who do not understand or agree with Wikipedia's mission, or even for those pretentious mediocrities who are not able to work with others constructively and recognize when there are holes in their knowledge (collectively, probably the most disruptive group of all). A less tolerant attitude toward disruption would make the project more polite, welcoming, and indeed open to the vast majority of intelligent, well-meaning people on the Internet. As it is, there are far fewer genuine experts involved in the project (though there are some, of course) than there could and should be.

And right here, folks, is what is called "post-formal," "vision-logic," "dialectical," "second-tier," "network-logic" reasoning. That being less tolerant, less open, and more judgemental can increase tolerance, openness, knowledge, and compassion. And this is why I cannot bear the presence of idiots, particularly racist, misogynist, cowardly, university-educated ones.

[Dialectic]

And that's that. No one's responded in 7 days, and this thread is closed. My final thoughts on the issue? Read the "Do You Deserve to be Here?" thread under the Declarations:

http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=2160

Forum operating policy is what it is. I want either positive energy or constructive negative energy. Nothing else fits.

The ultimate justification for what we do is here:
http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=5518

If anything else like this ever comes up, I'll direct people to this thread and the one above. I'll not engage in this again.