Wikipedia Asian Fetish definition has Neutrality Dispute tag

[Insane in the Membrane]

Someone believes that article is inaccurate and has now put it under Neutrality Dispute, expect it to be changed soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_fetish

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Asian_fetish

[nskripchun]

grrr, some of the comments really piss me off. just goes to show that some education + some racists = pseudo-intellectual, educated racists.

we should all hit up the discussion and weigh in.

edit

And by weigh in, I mean contributing arguments and sources like Frank Wu, Frank Chin, Ronald Takagi, David Henry Hwang, Helen Zia, etc.

[Infectious]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Asian_fetish

These latest discussions by the guilty on that article does not bode well for us.

Time to fight back :evil:

"Not in out favour"?

If you think like that, they'll just keep repeating "NPOV" to strike down all of your arguments, whether it's valid or not.

[toml]

For some more sources, check out this thread: http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=4154

There are several news reports where the rapists admit to specifically targeting Asian women because they thought the women would be ashamed to report a rape.

Also, here is an interesting statistic.

Some salient facts about race and rape. It's noted that while most rapes are intra-racial, rapes of Native American and Asian-American women are more often committed by men from different races, usually white men. Let me repeat thatórapists generally are the same race as their victims EXCEPT for the rape of Native American women and Asian American women by white men. 56% of American Indian victims were assaulted by white men. What we don't we hear about in the media is the terrible impact of rape AND racism on women of color. This is a major issue that often gets lost in the discussions of the intersection of race and gender discrimination.

Source: http://www.hoopsworld.com/cgi-bin/news/exec/view.cgi?archive=19&num=5321

I think if the Asian Fetish page starts out with that statistic, it can prove a very valid point.

[xian]

The problem is that many ethnic majority folks think that their POV is the control, no-point-of-view. Essentially to write anything with authority one has to have a point-of-view, a more worthwhile article with attempt to incorporate, anticipate and balance multiple points-of-view.

To most people of ethnic minority background, the environment of racial antagonism is not "their perspective" it's a reality like "the sun is in the sky" or "I breath oxygen". As a result, statements like "race may have had no factor in that subway flashing" are nonsensical.

Trying to explain racial issues to these aversive racists is like trying to explain "pastuerization" to someone who has never had occasion to believe in microorganisms. They can keep coming back to their "you are biased in favor of the existence of germs" and choose to never challenge their belief by just ignoring any research you reference.

Many ethnic majority folks are aversive racists; woefully ignorant of the wealth of research available on racial issues and even when confronted with that research, they will just call BS on it and run away.

Basically, the four groups you are going to get in reference to that Wiki are folks with strong empathy powers or firsthand experience with AFS who will push for an article that exposes AFS, folks who are ignorant about AFS and just don't care and won't go to the Wiki in the first place, folks who have a vested interest in protecting their own AFS in polemical ways, and enabling aversive racists who lash out with illogical arguments toward anyone trying to address issues of race so that they may reinforce existing privilege.

I think you better dig your trenches on that one.

[wzhao553]

We have the situation well under control by now. However, if you want to help out with the Asian fetish entry, there is a lot of work to be done that we could give you.

[Tyger Durden]

No offense, but it seems if you finally get the "right" definition, someone else will come along and re-edit it.

The definitions never become permanent, right?

[nskripchun]

Great link... the article was very informative and well-sourced.

I'm surprised that the Wikipedia article doesn't feature an exclusive section on the relation between Asian fetish / militarism. A discussion of the American occupations of the Philippines, Korea, and especially the rash of sexual assault incidents surrounding American army bases in Japan and Okinawa.


For some more sources, check out this thread: http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=4154

There are several news reports where the rapists admit to specifically targeting Asian women because they thought the women would be ashamed to report a rape.

Also, here is an interesting statistic.

Some salient facts about race and rape. It's noted that while most rapes are intra-racial, rapes of Native American and Asian-American women are more often committed by men from different races, usually white men. Let me repeat thatórapists generally are the same race as their victims EXCEPT for the rape of Native American women and Asian American women by white men. 56% of American Indian victims were assaulted by white men. What we don't we hear about in the media is the terrible impact of rape AND racism on women of color. This is a major issue that often gets lost in the discussions of the intersection of race and gender discrimination.

Source: http://www.hoopsworld.com/cgi-bin/news/exec/view.cgi?archive=19&num=5321

I think if the Asian Fetish page starts out with that statistic, it can prove a very valid point.

[Infectious]

The problem is that many ethnic majority folks think that their POV is the control, no-point-of-view. Essentially to write anything with authority one has to have a point-of-view, a more worthwhile article with attempt to incorporate, anticipate and balance multiple points-of-view.

Have you actually read what NPOV means? It means "representing all majority and significant minority views fairly." It's supposed to write all viewpoints, no matter how whacked.

If you want wikipedia to be advocacy (and I'm not saying that any viewpoint that tries to represent a viewpoint contrary to the majority as being "advocacy"), go ahead and try, but I don't think that's the point of Wikipedia.

[wzhao553]

Great link... the article was very informative and well-sourced.

I'm surprised that the Wikipedia article doesn't feature an exclusive section on the relation between Asian fetish / militarism. A discussion of the American occupations of the Philippines, Korea, and especially the rash of sexual assault incidents surrounding American army bases in Japan and Okinawa.

If you can provide some sources on this, then we will add it as soon as possible.

I've also planned a "sex tourism" section that attempts to list all incidents of white males from the English-speaking world traveling to Asian countries for sex tourism.

[xian]

The problem is that many ethnic majority folks think that their POV is the control, no-point-of-view. Essentially to write anything with authority one has to have a point-of-view, a more worthwhile article with attempt to incorporate, anticipate and balance multiple points-of-view.

Have you actually read what NPOV means? It means "representing all majority and significant minority views fairly." It's supposed to write all viewpoints, no matter how whacked.

If you want wikipedia to be advocacy (and I'm not saying that any viewpoint that tries to represent a viewpoint contrary to the majority as being "advocacy"), go ahead and try, but I don't think that's the point of Wikipedia.

Yes, and I think that is the proper goal. But from my experience on entries that conflict with the majority viewpoint, the execution on that ideal is non-existent.

As you correctly imply--any attempt to balance multiple points of view is usually identified by the status quo as "advocacy" and then there is an attempt to eradicate it.

But I believe that there's nothing mutually exclusive about the two things. I think printing multiple perspective "truths" is "advocacy" that improves the society. If it were not, what would be the point of having Wikipedia in the first place?

[SO_ANGRY]

The people editing this are forgetting that it's about ASIAN FETISHES. Last time I read this, it made excuses such as "not all who date Asians have Asian fetishes" and it clearly chose to ignore things like how western society views Asian women. It's also diverting from the topic itself. Of course not all people who date Asians have Asian fetishes. Yeah, most readers know this. It's like reading a topic on alcohol in Wikipedia, and reading "not all who drink alcohol are alcoholics." The Asiaphile who made this stuff needs to take a Sociology class, and needs to improve his reading comprehension. Asian Fetishes are clearly about race and racism and he's trying to divert the actual topic away from the reader by trying to make pathetic excuses.

[nskripchun]

Great link... the article was very informative and well-sourced.

I'm surprised that the Wikipedia article doesn't feature an exclusive section on the relation between Asian fetish / militarism. A discussion of the American occupations of the Philippines, Korea, and especially the rash of sexual assault incidents surrounding American army bases in Japan and Okinawa.

If you can provide some sources on this, then we will add it as soon as possible.

I've also planned a "sex tourism" section that attempts to list all incidents of white males from the English-speaking world traveling to Asian countries for sex tourism.

I don't have any concrete sources looking at the Asian fetish / militarism link, but I'll keep an eye out.

As for "sex tourism", I'm fairly confident there's a number of organizations out there focused on the issues of the exploitation of women and human trafficking. GQ magazine has been running an excellent series of articles on the sex trade, the first article appearing in the Aug 2005 issue, which focuses primarily on the sex trade in the Philippines and Asia.

[Infectious]

The problem is that many ethnic majority folks think that their POV is the control, no-point-of-view. Essentially to write anything with authority one has to have a point-of-view, a more worthwhile article with attempt to incorporate, anticipate and balance multiple points-of-view.

Have you actually read what NPOV means? It means "representing all majority and significant minority views fairly." It's supposed to write all viewpoints, no matter how whacked.

If you want wikipedia to be advocacy (and I'm not saying that any viewpoint that tries to represent a viewpoint contrary to the majority as being "advocacy"), go ahead and try, but I don't think that's the point of Wikipedia.

Yes, and I think that is the proper goal. But from my experience on entries that conflict with the majority viewpoint, the execution on that ideal is non-existent.

As you correctly imply--any attempt to balance multiple points of view is usually identified by the status quo as "advocacy" and then there is an attempt to eradicate it.

But I believe that there's nothing mutually exclusive about the two things. I think printing multiple perspective "truths" is "advocacy" that improves the society. If it were not, what would be the point of having Wikipedia in the first place?

Well, I think that the term "Neutral Point of View" is incredibly misleading. I bet half of the people who invoke POV have no idea what NPOV means.

[ellencho]

How did I miss this thread? So the original link that Insane gave is for a discussion section of wiki right? Because there's a different entry for the actual definition of asian fetish. The asian fetish definition seems to agree with what folks here tend to think. The discussion section is a different matter entirely.
Link for asian fetish wiki definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_fetish).

[wzhao553]

I don't have any concrete sources looking at the Asian fetish / militarism link, but I'll keep an eye out.

As for "sex tourism", I'm fairly confident there's a number of organizations out there focused on the issues of the exploitation of women and human trafficking. GQ magazine has been running an excellent series of articles on the sex trade, the first article appearing in the Aug 2005 issue, which focuses primarily on the sex trade in the Philippines and Asia.

Okay, please also tell me what articles by Frank Wu, Frank Chin, Ronald Takagi, David Henry Hwang, Helen Zia, etc you had in mind.

Also, we probably don't want to quote something like GQ magazine, although if it does have sources from reputable journals, then that would be very nice.

[Insane in the Membrane]

I don't have any concrete sources looking at the Asian fetish / militarism link, but I'll keep an eye out.

As for "sex tourism", I'm fairly confident there's a number of organizations out there focused on the issues of the exploitation of women and human trafficking. GQ magazine has been running an excellent series of articles on the sex trade, the first article appearing in the Aug 2005 issue, which focuses primarily on the sex trade in the Philippines and Asia.

Okay, please also tell me what articles by Frank Wu, Frank Chin, Ronald Takagi, David Henry Hwang, Helen Zia, etc you had in mind.

Also, we probably don't want to quote something like GQ magazine, although if it does have sources from reputable journals, then that would be very nice.

Yes, definitely a scholarly article from either Dr Frank Wu, Ronald Takagi and Helen Zia will help

[dachoi]

I don't really trust Wikipedia and I refuse to use it for as a source for any paper or research I am doing. Especially for any item dealing with any controversy. If you check out their entry for the Japanese American Internment it still has a lot of Michelle Malkin apologist crap in it, and this is after extensive editing too.

It is just sad to see people who think they are advancing their cause by manipulating references.

[nskripchun]

I don't really trust Wikipedia and I refuse to use it for as a source for any paper or research I am doing. Especially for any item dealing with any controversy. If you check out their entry for the Japanese American Internment it still has a lot of Michelle Malkin apologist crap in it, and this is after extensive editing too.

It is just sad to see people who think they are advancing their cause by manipulating references.

I actually disagree... the Japanese American internment article is generally well written and the inclusion of Malkin's nutty ideas seems solely to debunk them. Wikipedia is supposed to have a "NPOV" style, so it can be bit tricky on controversial subjects.

From the JA Internment article section on "support for the interment":

Another defender of the internment is Filipino-American opinion columnist Michelle Malkin, who authored a 2004 book entitled In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror. Critics have characterized her book as being one-sided, poorly researched, and a logically unsound justification for present-day racial profiling....

Among academics, the consensus is that the camps were indeed a product of wartime hysteria and racism rather than arising from legitimate fears of sabotage. Moreover, many Japanese Americans consider the efforts to justify the wartime actions to be highly offensive, on a par with Holocaust denial among Jews.

A link to the full article if anybody wants to read it and add changes to it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_internment

[toml]

Wikipedia founder admits to serious quality problems
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/18/wikipedia_quality_problem/

[SamuraiJack]

It will take ALOT of effort to change it. I've experienced this with Slashdot.

Slashdot attracts a higher-than-normal intellectual crowd. Yet racism against Asian, Asian stereotypes, jokes are all accepted. You moderate a racist comment down -1 Troll, and it just goes back up to +5 Funny. They have sheer numbers. We have a small minority of a small minority.

[Infectious]

Part of the reason is because there are POV wars, and the administrators tend to abuse their privileges when there is one. There's currently no real mechanism to remove abusive admins quickly enough.

[Infectious]

It will take ALOT of effort to change it. I've experienced this with Slashdot.

Slashdot attracts a higher-than-normal intellectual crowd. Yet racism against Asian, Asian stereotypes, jokes are all accepted. You moderate a racist comment down -1 Troll, and it just goes back up to +5 Funny. They have sheer numbers. We have a small minority of a small minority.

No they don't. Geeks can be stupid too. I know quite a few stupid geeks.

But yeah, computer geeks feel that they can be racist against Asians because they think they're in contact with them alot (when they may just have the token Asian guy in their circle of friends or something like that.)

[SamuraiJack]

It will take ALOT of effort to change it. I've experienced this with Slashdot.

Slashdot attracts a higher-than-normal intellectual crowd. Yet racism against Asian, Asian stereotypes, jokes are all accepted. You moderate a racist comment down -1 Troll, and it just goes back up to +5 Funny. They have sheer numbers. We have a small minority of a small minority.

No they don't. Geeks can be stupid too. I know quite a few stupid geeks.

But yeah, computer geeks feel that they can be racist against Asians because they think they're in contact with them alot (when they may just have the token Asian guy in their circle of friends or something like that.)

But geeks do have higher-than-normal intellect, don't you agree? On average.

[wzhao553]

Question for the members:

Is anybody still actively keeping up with the Asian fetish entry? Let's get a status report sometime.

[Vahz]

Just because "geeks" might be smarter doesn't mean that they're any less racist. And we all know what to do with the "I-can't-be-racist-because-I-have-<insert random race being offended here>-friends" excuse.

[Dialectic]

There are actually a TON of dumb, really, really dumb, and average IQ geeks who litter the comic, fantasy, scifi, role playing, science fair, etc. landscapes.

I'm sure many of you have seen/met super-geeky squads of people in highschool who were doing worse in school than you were and tried to talk about stuff like they were the shit.

IF the general "geek" community is indeed smarter than non-geeks, it's only by a small, small margin.