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kimtae
Jun 28th, 2005, 03:06 AM
Sorry for the long quote but I couldn't find a link that had the whole letter so I had to copy and paste from asiafinest.com's Hmong forum.Chai Vang's account of shootings
June 10, 2005 VANG0610.LETTER


Editor's note: Chai Vang's account of his encounter with a group of hunters in the woods of northern Wisconsin was recorded in this handwritten letter sent to a Chicago Tribune reporter.

3-8-05

Hunt trip

On Saturday November 20, After I get out work about 1:30 A.M. I got home about 2:00 A.M. I wait my friends Xiong Her to pick me up and wait for Thai Thao, his son Kai Thao and Gorthas from MPLS to Arrive at my house. They all arrived about 2:30 A.M. then we left my house to go hunt near Baldwin, WI. at U-S. Hway 63 and U.S. Hwy 40 met together. We take I-94 to exit 19 on U-S Hwy. 63 N. go aprox. 10 miles to where we hunt that morning. We get there about 3:30 A.M. we seat in a car till 5:00 A.M. then go to our tree stand. We hunt there until 12:00 p.m., but we didn't see anything. So we decided to go hunt near Ladysmith where this incident occur. We left about 1:00 pm and get there around 2-2:30 pm. We take Hwy 40 N. to Hwy 8 East than Hwy 40 E. again to County Rd H N. to Reichael Rd East to taylor R. North to I-94 Trail Dirt Rd North to End of Road. We camp with a group of Hmong in WI. Including my son with them on N. side aprox. 200 yard to death end of I-94 trail Rd. When we go there about 2:00-2:30 pm Saturday. we went hunt about 2 hrs on N. Side of I-94 trail about 1/2 miles [Kodiak?], then we didn't see anythings so we came back to camp to stay with the Hmong Milwaukee Group. We decide to go to Ladysmith because there's more forest and public & more deer in that area. I have hunt there in 2000-2002. I hunt with semi automatic because its easy to shoot the deer when they start moving and quicker to shoot if you miss it first time. When we left my house I ride with Xiong Her and Thai Thao his son with Gorthas in Thai car and also to Ladysmith. We talk about if we don't get any deer this time then we will come back to hunt during the doe season and scope the place very well when we hunt this time. We spend Saturday night social with the Milwaukee Group and talk about where they hunt on Saturday so we can have a better idea to hunt on Sunday. I felt very tired on Saturday night, because I've not sleep all day on Saturday. So after they cook dinner about 9:00 p.m. I ate and drink one Beer that they have, then went to sleep about 10:30 p.m. in the car with Xiong Her. On Sunday morning just before that woke me up about 5:00 AM I have a dream: that we're soldier in the jungle of Laos and I encounter with several Vietnam soldier in the wood. We shot each others so -- I shot most of them and some escape to get help, then later I ran into a Lake, there I was surround by Vietnam soldier Tank and Armor so they take me as a prisoner. Then Thai woke me up. I almost didn't want to go hunt that day, because I never have that kind of dream in my life, but I thought that it's just Another bad dream. So we walk to the End of I-94 trail then Thai-Thoa his son and Xiong Her take the North ATV trail go down the hill so me and son Thao take the ATV Trail go N. East down the hill to the other side of the hill. When we get to the bottom half of the next hill, I left son Thao there and I continue to walk another 10 Minutes along the hill side on ATV Trail. I then walk to the wood west of ATV Trail about 300 yards looking down to the Ridge slop. We walk about 30 minutes to where me and son split up. I sat there until daylight come out, then I saw one doe standing down the slop about 150 yards away. So I shot one time and miss it so the deer start walking North So I shot another 4 times, but miss also then the deer continue to ran on hillside I follow the deer about 1 mile. The deer continue ran North to N. east to the next hill. When I caught up with the deer about 100 yards away on next hill but I'm unable to get a clear shot so the deer run downhill west to another flat lower level. I then caught up with the deer Again about 100 yrds away, but Aprox. 30 yards to the North I saw 2 orange hunter sleep and facing West so I didn't shoot the deer. So the deer ran west to a thick bush. At that time I wasn't sure where I'm at. I know I'm somewhere North of I-94 trail 1? miles from Camp. So I went to talk to that 2 hunters. They were white and get me some direction to go south west, because they weren't sure where we exactly camp at. I continue to walk south west about ? mile until I come to see a tree stand about 50 yards away to west where I standing. I'm facing south at this time. I sat there about one hrs, but didn't see anybody and there's no sign of private property anywhere or fences. So I thought that I'm still in public land, because in Minneosot, we can built tree stand in public land and if nobody there, you can climb to it and wait for deer. So I thought that maybe someone just built the tree stand in public land. That's why I decided to walk to the tree stand and climb on to the stand for a while. I think it was between 11:00-12 pm. I sat on the tree stand about 15 minutes than I saw a man with a Rifle coming from the East next to swamp on a ATV Trail about 125 yards south east of the tree stand. I saw him using a walkie talkie to someone, but I can't hear what he's saying. Then about five minutes later he continue to walk toward me. When he was about 10-15 yard away he ask me what group I belong to so I said my group where somewhere south of here. Then he told me I'm in private land and I shouldn't be in somebody else tree stand. I told him that I'm sorry and didn't know that this's are private property, because I didn't see any fence or sign post anywhere. I then climb down from the stand and walk south east toward public land where he was coming from. I also ask him where is the property line? He told me about 100 yards east here where he came from. When I start walk east I heard him call to someone, but can't hear exactly what he's saying. I can hear people start ATV west about 1/2 miles away, but I continue to walk south east to the ATV trail where they come to stop in front of me about 3 feet away. One ATV is on my right and the other is slightly on my left. There were 3 men on the ATV and 1 on the other. The people on the ATV on right get out from the ATV and two of them come in front of me about 2 feets away. One is in his 40 and the other is in his 20. The one in his 40s where yelling at me "were you on my son tree stand?!! I said yes, I'm sorry I didn't know that was your stand. Then he ask me again. Did you know you were on a 400 acres of private property dam g@@k? I said no. I didn't see any sign post anywhere. He said I don't care, I don't have to put a sign on you [expletive] chinese. He said, I want your [expletive] license. I said no, I don't have to get you anything. He said I'm sick of your [expletive] Asian coming to my land. If you all keep coming to my land, I will kick your [expletive] Asian @$$. I start to walk to my left and start walking south. The young man on his 20's walk in front me and tell me where the hell you think you're going dam g@@k? And 2 others men on the others ATV get out of the ATV in front of me stand behind the young man. I hear they said something with Asian behind him. But I could['nt] hear exactly because he was blocking me. I told him excuse me, I got to go so I go around him on his right to south. Than the man on his 40's tell me to follow the ATV trail and [several illegible words] and never come back again and said matter of fact writing his [expletive]license tag on his back down. I will turn in to the DNR so that that will teach him a lesson. He than came behind me and flip my license tag. At this time the man that confront me come to the ATV so he start write my license # down. As I continue to walk another 20 feet I turn around and the 20's yrs old man follow behind me to the back of the ATV and said to me that I saw you get me the finger. I said no I didn't said anything. I continue to walk another 10 feet. I turn around back and saw the first man that confront me walk in front of the ATV and pull his rifle off his shoulder to his hand and some of the group turn their ATV around face me while some still by the ATV look at me. I continue to walk another aprox 10 feet I look back and saw the man with the rifle that first confront me point his rifle to me so I drop down to a crouch and I hear a fire shot. Then I took off my rifle scope and fire two shot at him. He drop to his right side on the ground. The rest of the group scramble for something at the ATV. So I shot them at the ATV and ran toward them, because I thought that they will get something or gun to shoot me. Some felt to the ground and two take off runing north. When I get to the ATV I shot several time too than chasing those two runing. One take of east on ATV trail. I shot twice he felt to the ground. The other run west north to the cabin yielding help me. I shot several time behind him and chase him near than shot one more. He felt to the ground so I hear someone call to other at the original scense. So I ran back and reload my magazine. When I got close to them another ATV coming and each of them have gun on their should. I duct into a prome position about 10 feet from ATV trail. They went by me and less than a minutes, they come back to the cabin. I switch my orange coat to camaflag color and start run. Than another ATV coming past me and stop about 10 feet in front of me. HE than start take his rifle of from his left shoulder. So I shot several time. They felt to the ground. I ran back to the original scense and one one still sit on the ground next to the ATV. I said you're not dead yet? And shot one time in his diretion. I saw he grab a gun and hide behind a small pile of dirt but I [several illegible words] body on ground still moving. I then started joging away south of the ATV trail. I look back several before ran into the wood. The last time I look back his just got off from the ground look at me so I ran into the wood. Later I throw my bullet into the swamp and later that day turn my self in to DNR. After ran into wood. I though to myself and said sorry to my wife and family that I have done something to defend my self and my race, but I'm will disappoint them, that I may or maybe able to be with them again. Right now I feel that and wish I wouldn't going hunt at WI and go hunt at my property at north MN. I went to hunt in WI because I got a buck 9 pts during bow season. So I couldn't shoot anymore so I decide to go to WI.
My life in jail here is long days/nights. It since like live in a bad dream only, and worry about my wife and family all the time. I feel that this incident is happen because people are not able to treated others with respect like they want to be treated and hatred toward other people or race. [several illegible words] I'm proud of who I'm, my race and all the people live in this country. Some of us Hmong people get lost in the other property. Is not because we didn't respect their land. Some of us are new to the area or got lost. So into other property are everybody including Caucasion as well not just minority only. We didn't hunt anywhere we felt like it. The question is "Are you doing enough to protect your property or family"? For example if you don't put a fence in your front yard and your kids play outside with a ball and the ball run in the street. Your kids was run over by a car and you blame the drive for not careful or bad driver. It's your false that you need to do to protect your property or family, not to one that cause the incident.

MATHABA
Jun 28th, 2005, 10:29 AM
I wasn't sure about this case before but now I feel he is innocent. I would have done the same thing in his situation. It's scary to be surrounded by people with guns when they're calling you a gook.

Dialectic
Jun 28th, 2005, 10:32 AM
Damn, that is some sad stuff. He's never gonna see any woods again.

DijabutiA
Jun 28th, 2005, 06:30 PM
I had a long discussion about this with someone else while i was in lab. I didnt see this, but I read the official police report. Its interesting to see what news places leave out certain items from the police report. Anyway, the guy basically went military on their ass. He earned a marksmenship badge while in the Cali National Guard. Aparently his father was some kind of general who fought with the US against the NVA during the Vietnam war and they all got refugee status or some crap after the war.

King_Kai
Jun 28th, 2005, 07:11 PM
If he can prove it was self defense, he'd be let go right?


/not familiar with laws

minbo
Jun 28th, 2005, 08:15 PM
I think that it is undeniable that he was provoked, and in his perspective I think that self-defense was justified for everyone he thought had a gun or was going for a gun, but I'm not the courts.

Unfortunately by his own words he does not qualify for a legal self-defense argument. For self defense to be usable in a court of law, he has to dis-engage as soon as possible. Persuing people, shooting them in the back, and returning to shoot someone wounded on the ground because they aren't dead yet falls outside self defense as far as the courts see it.

MATHABA
Jun 28th, 2005, 08:29 PM
I predict these types of disputes will continue until white people change their attitude. I used to visit the shooting range every month with my brother and I remember the way they acted towards us. It's because they feel threatened that some other race can use weapons too. Especially with some "gooks" who are the same people who kicked them out of Vietnam.
They all pissed their pants one day when a black guy came in to practice with his pistols. Later I started only using the indoor range in the city where there are less rednecks.
Hunting and fishing are two sports which white men feel that they have cornered and can dominate since there are not many black hunters or competitive fishermen. So naturally they are very threatened when a Hmong or Vietnamese is also hunting or fishing.

kimtae
Jun 28th, 2005, 10:56 PM
I had a long discussion about this with someone else while i was in lab. I didnt see this, but I read the official police report. Its interesting to see what news places leave out certain items from the police report. Anyway, the guy basically went military on their ass. He earned a marksmenship badge while in the Cali National Guard. Aparently his father was some kind of general who fought with the US against the NVA during the Vietnam war and they all got refugee status or some crap after the war.I read the police report too. Whether it was self-defense initially or not will have to be determined in court but he did go too far. Still, blinded by fear and anger and years of enduring slurs from people who were supposed to be your allies and benefactors might push any of us over the edge.
The marksman badge is nothing special. It does recognize a certain level of proficiency but of the three levels of rifle expertise it is the lowest after Expert and Sharpshooter.
Anyway, you seem to have some particular beef with Hmong refugees?

DijabutiA
Jun 29th, 2005, 12:28 AM
I had a long discussion about this with someone else while i was in lab. I didnt see this, but I read the official police report. Its interesting to see what news places leave out certain items from the police report. Anyway, the guy basically went military on their ass. He earned a marksmenship badge while in the Cali National Guard. Aparently his father was some kind of general who fought with the US against the NVA during the Vietnam war and they all got refugee status or some crap after the war.I read the police report too. Whether it was self-defense initially or not will have to be determined in court but he did go too far. Still, blinded by fear and anger and years of enduring slurs from people who were supposed to be your allies and benefactors might push any of us over the edge.
The marksman badge is nothing special. It does recognize a certain level of proficiency but of the three levels of rifle expertise it is the lowest after Expert and Sharpshooter.
Anyway, you seem to have some particular beef with Hmong refugees?

Why do you say I have beef? I brought up the General thing b/c i heard some people think it might have some impact on the court case b/c his dad is like a VIP or something.

Theres no way hes getting off, he killed 6 people. I dont blame his reaction, but killing 6 people is well past self defense. No one knows who shot first, and no one probably will ever know other than those dead people and Vang. I mean they can try to construct some bullshit from looking for shells in the woods, but its the freakin woods. Plus the amount of time before the police showed up, you dont know what that family did. The guy I was discussing this with was wondering if the white guy with the gun and Vang freaked each other out. Vang kept looking over his shoulder, the white dude grabbed his gun and was watching him. Who knows...

I'm sorry you had a bad experience at the gun range. I goto a gun range in Indiana, and they are usually pretty happy to see college kids b/c they make good money. One of the guys was a Vietnam Vet, and the other dude was ex army. They were very cool with me. Hell, me and my friend , white guy, barely got any time to shoot the first time we went there because the ex-army guy was giving us a personal tour of the entire damn place.

DijabutiA
Jun 29th, 2005, 12:36 AM
One of the guys at the range let us shoot his personal gun, a .40 Browning HiPower, that he just freakin bought. He was like, you'll never know if you'd like it unless you shoot it.

A marksman badge doesnt make him some ultra badass, but it definately says he is a decent shot. And he sure as hell prove that when he lit those people up. The police report just said military reaction to me, just the way he dropped and started taking out whoever he thought was a threat, and how he switched his jacket from orange to camo. I wonder if that will factor into the case.

kimtae
Jun 29th, 2005, 01:27 AM
I was making reference to your remark:
"...and they all got refugee status or some crap after the war."
The off-handed way in which you toss it out seems to indicate they got something they weren't entitled to. I know even in America some people in some communities resent the Hmong for fighting on the American side.

DijabutiA
Jun 29th, 2005, 10:20 PM
I was making reference to your remark:
"...and they all got refugee status or some crap after the war."
The off-handed way in which you toss it out seems to indicate they got something they weren't entitled to. I know even in America some people in some communities resent the Hmong for fighting on the American side.

I dont remember the exact specifics, so thats why i said some crap. Nothing else intended.

KevMinh
Jan 28th, 2007, 03:45 PM
Hmong in Wisconsin see retaliation in hunter's death (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/14/news/hmong.php)

Kuroyama
Feb 21st, 2007, 01:11 PM
I didnt know they killed him. I didnt even know he ever got out! I never expected it. A colored man defends himself against racist whites with a firearm and goes to jail... not likely to be a good outcome for the defender regardless of color (presuming non-white).

So they waited him out, and killed him.

RIP Mr. Vang.

kimtae
Feb 21st, 2007, 10:04 PM
Different guy, Kuro.

Kuroyama
Feb 22nd, 2007, 12:29 AM
the greater Hmong community across Wisconsin and Minnesota is whether he was killed in retaliation for the shooting deaths of six white hunters two years ago by another Hmong who, though unrelated, shared the same last name.

And this is me, unable to keep track of the details of a case like the fact that ITS A DIFFERENT GUY!!...

Still no less tragic is this guys death, which I would agree is linked.

blockthebox
Feb 28th, 2007, 01:12 AM
Part of the reason why I'll always cry for the Chai Vangs and Vincent Chins of this country is because THEY ARE US. They're us, our parents, siblings, friends.

And this is why I love the 44s. This is a place where we can always remember them even when the rest of the world won't.

cattygurl
Feb 28th, 2007, 07:46 PM
It could be a coincidence, but I find it very unlikely.

Millerboy
Mar 1st, 2007, 04:40 AM
I feel sad for the Hmong, he didn't deserve to die for Chai Vang's mass murder of 6 Whites. Chai Vang should get a fair trial, we'll never know the specifics of the incident but I hope he was innocent. I mean, for all we know, could he have just walked away? Why did he have to shoot and kill 6 Whites? Maybe he could've shot one dead and then the rest would've been scared? There's so many possibilities, only lawyers, a jury, and a judge can decide the matter.

Televangelist
Mar 2nd, 2007, 03:18 AM
I think it's a fucking disgrace to put Chai Vang and Vincent Chin's names together in the same sentence.

Vincent Chin was a blameless man who died at the hands of vile racist fuckers and whose killers were let off easy in a travesty of justice.

Chai Vang may or may not have been shot at (He "heard a noise" and killed 6 people on the basis of that? Is there any ballistics evidence that he was shot at?), and in retaliation chased a whole group of people through the woods killing them all in cold blood. Even if he had been shot at, which I don't accept as fact, there is no legitimate definition of self-defense that would allow his actions in shooting people in the back. He was found guilty of the murders, and he got the prison sentence that you get when you murder people.

I'd like to hear more about the poor guy who was apparently targetted and killed by racists just for sharing the same ethnicity with Vang.

Scowl
Mar 2nd, 2007, 12:51 PM
I think it's a fucking disgrace to put Chai Vang and Vincent Chin's names together in the same sentence.

I don't think the two situations are so dissimilar. To me, it seems like both of them were guys just minding their own business when other people decided to fuck with them. Vincent Chin got killed and is seen as a hero, while Chai Vang did the killing and is seen as a murderer. Well, if those are the only two choices, then you're fucked if you're not white and white people want to fuck with you.

Sure, you could say that Vang could have just walked away, but that's what Chin did. Maybe nothing would have happened in Vang's case, but there's no way to tell. That other Hmong guy didn't do shit, and look what happened to him. Sometimes you just can't win, either way.

Televangelist
Mar 3rd, 2007, 12:55 AM
To me, it seems like both of them were guys just minding their own business when other people decided to fuck with them.

Vincent Chin - minding his own business at a restaurant. Ebens and Nitz came after him.

Chai Vang - trespassing on someone else's property, may or may not have been fucked with beyond that, we really don't know.

Vincent Chin got killed and is seen as a hero, while Chai Vang did the killing and is seen as a murderer.

If Vincent Chin had somehow managed to turn the tables and kill the two guys attacking him, he would still be seen as a hero.

Also, Vincent Chin was clearly and unambiguously attacked. We have no evidence that Chai Vang was clearly attacked; we do know that he chased down people fleeing in terror and killed them one by one.

Sure, you could say that Vang could have just walked away, but that's what Chin did.

That implies they were 'walking away' from the same thing -- you've now put the six murdered people fleeing for their lives after some dude came onto their land in the same camp as Ebens and Nitz.

Maybe nothing would have happened in Vang's case, but there's no way to tell.

So nobody should ever walk away from a fight, because there's no way to tell if the other person might kill you?

aelward
Mar 3rd, 2007, 09:39 AM
Vincent Chin is a Martyr, not a hero. He did not walk away from the fight, he basically kicked Eben's arse at the night club; humiliated, Ebens and Nitz essentially hunted him down. Vincent said he would fight them, as long as they put down the bat. Didn't happen, one of the cowards held him down while the other swung away, despite dozens of onlookers. And, because of a single judge's decision (Anna Mae He, anyone?), they got off with a slap on the wrist.

Chai Vang's case is different, and I will not jump to call him either a hero or a murderer. Unfortunately, only he and the survivors know what truly happened. But based on the history of how Asians are treated in this country, it would not surprise me if Vang felt threatened enough to kill. People were fleeing, yeah. But were they running to get their guns? They shot at him once. He was alone in the woods, how would he know they were not going to raise a posse to come hunting him? I won't rush to judgement because I wasn't in his shoes.

Televangelist
Mar 3rd, 2007, 05:27 PM
But based on the history of how Asians are treated in this country, it would not surprise me if Vang felt threatened enough to kill.

That's an incredibly racist way of defining whether behavior is criminal or not. The only reason you'd feel comfortable writing it is because it involves white people; if Chai Vang had shot and killed 6 African Americans, would you point to the statistics on Asian-on-Black and Black-on-Asian crime to justify his feeling threatened based on skin color? Of course not - your shame would (one hopes) prevent you from making such a blatantly racist argument.

People were fleeing, yeah. But were they running to get their guns?

They just had 4 of their friends shot and killed. By this logic, you should shoot anyone fleeing a homocidal rampage, because hey, they might be looking for weapons to defend themselves?

They shot at him once.

We don't know that. Again, I ask, is there some killer ballistics evidence I'm missing that proves they fired a shot that he responded to?

He was alone in the woods, how would he know they were not going to raise a posse to come hunting him?

Generally, killing four people qualifies as grounds to be 'hunted down'. That's called a 'manhunt', and it's conducted by a Sheriff's department, not a posse.

What century do you think we live in? You honestly think the two survivors fleeing for their lives are going to skip calling 9-1-1, and instead "ride into town" to "raise a posse" to "get that varmint"? This isn't a spaghetti Western, this is real life where people were shot in the back as they tried to flee a guy who just killed four people right in front of them.

aelward
Mar 3rd, 2007, 08:59 PM
What century do you think we live in? You honestly think the two survivors fleeing for their lives are going to skip calling 9-1-1, and instead "ride into town" to "raise a posse" to "get that varmint"? This isn't a spaghetti Western, this is real life where people were shot in the back as they tried to flee a guy who just killed four people right in front of them.

I'm sorry, I guess I"ve listenned to one-too-many speeches by President Bush. I guess it is unreasonable to believe that pre-emptive attacks would be considered self-defense...

In all seriousness, though, you are judging a situation based on your own experience, not Chai Vang's. The backdrop is a remote forest, a good ways away from law enforcement. It is a region where Black hunters have related stories of being harrassed with racial epithets and threatened; where, after the event bumper stickers like "save a deer, kill a Hmong" appeared.

So what is Chai Vang to think in this situation? Yes, there is no evidence that the other side shot first; there is also no evidence that they did not. Is it plausible to think they might have taken a "shot across the bow"-- a message to "leave and don't come back"? And that it could be misconstrued as a threat?

If you felt your life was in danger, then you would probably eliminate both the immediate and potential threat.

Once again, we do not know what happenned out there. Why should we believe the other party's word over Chai Vang's? It's not like they are going to admit to authorities that they intimidated him and shot at him first, even if they did.

Subwaybrum
Mar 3rd, 2007, 09:48 PM
They just had 4 of their friends shot and killed. By this logic, you should shoot anyone fleeing a homocidal rampage, because hey, they might be looking for weapons to defend themselves?

true


We don't know that. Again, I ask, is there some killer ballistics evidence I'm missing that proves they fired a shot that he responded to?


is it even possible to prove who shot first? When there's a pile of bullets already fired?


What century do you think we live in?

we live in a century where there is no more racism!!!1


You honestly think the two survivors fleeing for their lives are going to skip calling 9-1-1, and instead "ride into town" to "raise a posse" to "get that varmint"? This isn't a spaghetti Western, this is real life where people were shot in the back as they tried to flee a guy who just killed four people right in front of them.

i would call the police, then sit there twiddling thumbs waiting for police to arrive to some random place in the woods while i know i have some of my rifles sitting in my vehicle.

That's an incredibly racist way of defining whether behavior is criminal or not. The only reason you'd feel comfortable writing it is because it involves white people; if Chai Vang had shot and killed 6 African Americans, would you point to the statistics on Asian-on-Black and Black-on-Asian crime to justify his feeling threatened based on skin color? Of course not - your shame would (one hopes) prevent you from making such a blatantly racist argument.

this coming from the guy who's always siding with the white people's point of view/testimony by default?

Apollyon
Mar 5th, 2007, 02:53 AM
There is no point talking about experiences of racism with most white people in the Western world. They are either unable or unwilling to understand it. Their first inclination is to either deny racism exists, to minimize it, to deflect it, or to justify it. It is a waste of time and an exercise in futility. To admit that racism exists to the extent and form that it does would be to acknowledge that white privilege exists which would conflict with the world view that the dominant social class has worked so hard to construct over history. This may seem like a harsh blanket statement but I believe it is accurate.

Televangelist
Mar 5th, 2007, 04:48 AM
To admit that racism exists to the extent and form that it does would be to acknowledge that white privilege exists

Since when would one follow from the other? Racism isn't just a two-way street, it's a round-about with exits to everywhere. There's plenty of racism in the world that isn't simply "white people putting non-whites down", in fact there's plenty of racism which doesn't involve white people at all. If my Asian-American friend has parents that discourage her from dating blacks or Mexicans, that's racism, but you're going to have a hell of a time trying to blame white people for that.

aelward
Mar 5th, 2007, 02:35 PM
Since when would one follow from the other? Racism isn't just a two-way street, it's a round-about with exits to everywhere. There's plenty of racism in the world that isn't simply "white people putting non-whites down", in fact there's plenty of racism which doesn't involve white people at all. If my Asian-American friend has parents that discourage her from dating blacks or Mexicans, that's racism, but you're going to have a hell of a time trying to blame white people for that.

It amazes me that every Asian American forum attracts self-proclaimed non-Asian experts to invalidate our experiences, and to come up with an argument that essentially says "People are racist against White people, therefore it's OK for Whites to be racist, too." Because that is the crux of your last post.

Since I don't have the time to address the many forms of racism from every angle, I am just going to show how racism and White privilege are intertwined.

Chuck D of Public Enemy fame once said "Black people can't be racists." His meaning was that Black people cannot institutionally enforce their racism in this country. White people can.

In the legal system, it is why Ebens and Nitz walked for viciously murdering Vincent Chin, why Chai Vang was automatically considered a liar, why Anna Mae He was legally taken from her birth parents, why Black people on the average are more frequently convicted and get considerably stricter punishments for the same crimes committed by Whites.

In the business world, it is why Asians are promoted to upper mangement at significantly lower rates than their White counterparts, why people with African or Asian-sounding names get fewer interviews than people with "American" names despite similar educational backgrounds.

In the educational system, it is why Legacy admissions originally started.

Sure, on a personal level we probably all harbor a level of racism, even if it is on a very subconsious level. But that has very little impact on other people beyond our own personal spheres. It is very different from the White Privilege that stems from institutionalized racism.

Apollyon
Mar 5th, 2007, 09:06 PM
By the way, I was up at a gun club just north of Toronto and it was pretty nice. There were three African Canadians and an Asian Canadian shooting semi-auto handguns. It was refreshing seeing some people other than cops (all white of course), bikers, and ummm.... 'country folk'.

blockthebox
Mar 22nd, 2007, 01:28 AM
There is no point talking about experiences of racism with most white people in the Western world. They are either unable or unwilling to understand it. Their first inclination is to either deny racism exists, to minimize it, to deflect it, or to justify it. It is a waste of time and an exercise in futility. To admit that racism exists to the extent and form that it does would be to acknowledge that white privilege exists which would conflict with the world view that the dominant social class has worked so hard to construct over history. This may seem like a harsh blanket statement but I believe it is accurate.

Exactly. And I was just waiting for the first crackerjack to come along and say something about the Vincent Chin/Chai Vang parallel.

rel
Apr 4th, 2007, 04:20 PM
It amazes me that every Asian American forum attracts self-proclaimed non-Asian experts to invalidate our experiences, and to come up with an argument that essentially says "People are racist against White people, therefore it's OK for Whites to be racist, too." Because that is the crux of your last post.

Since I don't have the time to address the many forms of racism from every angle, I am just going to show how racism and White privilege are intertwined.

Chuck D of Public Enemy fame once said "Black people can't be racists." His meaning was that Black people cannot institutionally enforce their racism in this country. White people can.

In the legal system, it is why Ebens and Nitz walked for viciously murdering Vincent Chin, why Chai Vang was automatically considered a liar, why Anna Mae He was legally taken from her birth parents, why Black people on the average are more frequently convicted and get considerably stricter punishments for the same crimes committed by Whites.

In the business world, it is why Asians are promoted to upper mangement at significantly lower rates than their White counterparts, why people with African or Asian-sounding names get fewer interviews than people with "American" names despite similar educational backgrounds.

In the educational system, it is why Legacy admissions originally started.

Sure, on a personal level we probably all harbor a level of racism, even if it is on a very subconsious level. But that has very little impact on other people beyond our own personal spheres. It is very different from the White Privilege that stems from institutionalized racism.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Personal level racism by minorities here is almost meaningless with its small impact