Omega Point Technologies

[da Tao]

There are indeed many problems in the world, and to make it all the worse is the Gordian knot - the problems are multi-dimensional and intertwined.

The question I am posing here is: can you come up with one future technology that can trigger a cascade of solutions? The solutions of course should not create more problems, and everything should move toward a "final", steady state - the Omega Point.

Such technology, naturally, would be fearfully powerful - since one of its desirable attribute is to be unstoppable until its purpose is complete. It should be able to marshall all other systems. It could well be dangerous.

I can already hear calls that such notion of a technology being THE cure as folly. But I would like people to think about this... before I put up my suggestion of what could be an Omega Point Tech. (The basis is currently available, but in an imperfect form.)

[Dialectic]

Zero-point energy, baby! Limitless and pervasive. It's just a matter of constructing a contained zero-Kelvin vacuum space and harnessing that energy. It's the FUTURE.

(Also, I ask what you mean by "technology.")

(Also, there is no final Omega point, as holons complexify infinitely. The desire to achieve a final, absolute Omega is all fun and games until someone loses an eye.)

[da Tao]

(Also, I ask what you mean by "technology.")

(Also, there is no final Omega point, as holons complexify infinitely. The desire to achieve a final, absolute Omega is all fun and games until someone loses an eye.)

Well, I am not going to slam down a hard and fast definition - letting it freestyle a bit. I can imagine some suggestions would seem like magic... Rather I will draw a contrast* - you can postulate how zero-point energy works using science... and science (I am going to point people to Kuhn) is a system of method, knowledge and theories with a high degree of coherence... whereas it is difficult to get consensus on how voodoo work, and demonstrates its effect reliability.

*Yes, I know you can't say what a thing is by saying what it is not unless it is mutually exculsive by definition.

As for the absolute Omega - yeah that is very true. But humanity as it stands now has limited depth as a holon - so there would be a limit how much we manifest ourselves to and accept signals from other holons no? But I am not even talking that far ahead...

[Dialectic]

I wasn't actually looking for a rigid definition of "technology"; I just wanted to know if you meant sciency/gadgety type stuff, or a more expansive meaning, like "contemplative technologies," referring, for example, to methodologies for expanding cognition.

At any rate, while I love the Foundation (the original trilogy, not the gahbage Asimov wrote later) and all that the Seldon Plan implies, and it sounds like this is the kind of thing you're asking for, it's not really possible. As things develop, they become more and more complex, so as you create more and more solutions, or evolve into more and more sophisticated forms, your potential for pathologies evolve and complexify as well. Systems become more unpredictable and can be disrupted in more ways. This is not to say that all solutions cause more problems, but rather, all solutions create potentials for more complex problems.

In North America, for example, pretty much no one worries about eating, getting bombed, getting eaten, etc. but are we happier or serene? No, because needs complexify.

Whereas, for example, a low-cognition headshrinking tribal dude can get killed by starvation, disease, and war, we can get "killed" by depression, low self-esteem, emotional trauma, and feelings of meaninglessness as well as starvation, disease, and war. Whereas he is not as susceptible to the more sophisticated mental pathologies, we are. These came about with the development of sophisticated social infrastructures based on industrialization and reason. And most people will tell you that developing reason was a good thing, and did solve a bunch of problems.

We have, right now, actually just attained a very significant Omega Point in history: we are experiencing the non-trivial effects of the Informational revolution with the widespread use of computers and the development of the internet. Along with solving problems of the previous era (namely, lack of information distribution), it has introduced whole new sets of problems and pathologies.

So even if we had nano-machines that could quickly create physical objects out of information (emailing a Porsche, for example), even if we could create teleporters/ replicators for mass/energy conversion, even if we could tap "limitless" zero-point energy, things would just keep getting grander and more complicated. It's part of the beauty of holonic existence!

[da Tao]

I wasn't actually looking for a rigid definition of "technology"; I just wanted to know if you meant sciency/gadgety type stuff, or a more expansive meaning, like "contemplative technologies," referring, for example, to methodologies for expanding cognition.

Damn it, D, you are good. Yes, I am implying contemplative technologies (though this is the first time I heard of the term), with the bias that I think it is probably the most realizable through sciency/gadgety type stuff.

At any rate, while I love the Foundation (the original trilogy, not the gahbage Asimov wrote later) and all that the Seldon Plan implies, and it sounds like this is the kind of thing you're asking for, it's not really possible. As things develop, they become more and more complex, so as you create more and more solutions, or evolve into more and more sophisticated forms, your potential for pathologies evolve and complexify as well. Systems become more unpredictable and can be disrupted in more ways. This is not to say that all solutions cause more problems, but rather, all solutions create potentials for more complex problems.

I have never read the Foundation (not a very well read man I am afraid), so I did some wikipedia... and I am not sure what it is that you think I am thinking. The Seldon Plan seems to be about one man's insight and goal and setting things in motion towards that goal. As much as I love having things move inexorably toward an end, I very much doubt a small group, let alone one man has all the answers...

And I definitely hear you on the spawning problem. Which reminds me... the Omega Point Tech should be self-sustainable as well - leading to a structure that is highly competent to address new challenges. (There will be undoubtedly a lag time, but it should not be derailing. And I would postulate that if it does derail, then either there is an inherent flaw with the starting components of the system, or the tech is not OPT in the first place.)

We have, right now, actually just attained a very significant Omega Point in history: we are experiencing the non-trivial effects of the Informational revolution with the widespread use of computers and the development of the internet. Along with solving problems of the previous era (namely, lack of information distribution), it has introduced whole new sets of problems and pathologies.

With this, i think you are at the door step of my proposal. But before I commit to an answer (I am going to write personal emails now), can you tell me what you see the problems and pathologies are? (Briefly is cool.)

So even if we had nano-machines that could quickly create physical objects out of information (emailing a Porsche, for example), even if we could create teleporters/ replicators for mass/energy conversion, even if we could tap "limitless" zero-point energy, things would just keep getting grander and more complicated. It's part of the beauty of holonic existence!

I think we are getting tantalizingly close to discussing trancendence... at least I am. I am goign to hold off for now and focus on emails.

I encourage any else to join in! And please feel free to start off with another angle if you want.

[Dialectic]

Yes, I am implying contemplative technologies (though this is the first time I heard of the term), with the bias that I think it is probably the most realizable through sciency/gadgety type stuff.

I may have made up the specific term "contemplative technology" but I encountered similar uses for the term "technology" on transpersonal/ integral sites. Now, if we're going into new/ innovative methodologies or "technologies" to evolve in mind (and, if one accepts it, soul/Spirit), then we're going to be looking at exercises and viewpoints which are Integral in nature. I hesitate to turn this into an Integral discussion, so suffice it to say here that the Institute is putting together a series of introductory briefs on exercises to develop along cognitive, physical, contemplative, and psychodynamic lines (I'm writing a few of them).

I have never read the Foundation (not a very well read man I am afraid), so I did some wikipedia... and I am not sure what it is that you think I am thinking. The Seldon Plan seems to be about one man's insight and goal and setting things in motion towards that goal. As much as I love having things move inexorably toward an end, I very much doubt a small group, let alone one man has all the answers...

The reason I mention the Foundation and the Seldon plan was that, in the beginning, it had a very modernist bent: you get a really smart guy, put together an awesome statistical analysis, develop a Plan, put together two really smart groups to make sure this plan takes effect, and BOOM, universal order and the best peace you can achieve. Now, Asimov himself had a problem with this, which is why he introduced The Mule and other elements of instability/ unpredictability. But they essentially developed specialized "technologies" to attain the Omega Point of best possible peace and order: super-statistics and nigh-psychics (as a result of highly-sophisticated contemplative and psychological practices).

And I definitely hear you on the spawning problem. Which reminds me... the Omega Point Tech should be self-sustainable as well - leading to a structure that is highly competent to address new challenges. (There will be undoubtedly a lag time, but it should not be derailing. And I would postulate that if it does derail, then either there is an inherent flaw with the starting components of the system, or the tech is not OPT in the first place.)

The tech itself would recognize, then, that no Omega Point is final or ultimate, and should be able to account for infinitely increasing complexity. Again, the only "tech" we know of that can do this is the human bodymind. Any tech we develop, then, would have to involve systems/ hardware/ software which work as a "pacer of change" to get people to evolve up to Tiers II and III. It would have to be integral.

With this, i think you are at the door step of my proposal. But before I commit to an answer (I am going to write personal emails now), can you tell me what you see the problems and pathologies are? (Briefly is cool.)

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking; my "technology" or "solution" of moving toward more and more expansive and inclusive Omega Points requires setting up "pacer of change" conditions in the objective quadrants (perhaps specific technology, pharmaceuticals, and highly-developed economic, political, and educational systems), as well as in the collective-subjective (cultural and linguistic systems). Again, the approach would have to be integral.

I think we are getting tantalizingly close to discussing trancendence... at least I am. I am goign to hold off for now and focus on emails.

That's exactly what we're discussing. That's what a developmental Omega Point is! Each successive level of a holarchy functions as an Omega Point, creates on Omega pull, on its juniors.

[vsoy]

It's interesting to note that as solutions/technologies solve problems or make work easier, it also creates new problems which spurs more solution development which unturns more problems. An optimist view would see technology as a positive creative force or engine for change and adding to the knowledge base of humans.

But I wonder if eventually, things get so complicated that the system implodes? Complexity becomes so ridiculous complicated or unwieldly that it is inefficient or harmful? Or the information can be used to wipe out life off the face of the earth by unscrupulous people or people who don't completely understand the consequences of this information/technology?

I have a very limited knowledge of this whole holonic/integral philosophy but it seems to me from just looking at history, that there is a cyclic nature to increasing complexity. Solution solves problem but creates new ones, increasing complexity, new people solve problem, but bring up new ones, increasing complexity until war/disease/natural disaster wipes outs civilization. Survivors pick up pieces, reinventing the wheel.

[da Tao]

But I wonder if eventually, things get so complicated that the system implodes? Complexity becomes so ridiculous complicated or unwieldly that it is inefficient or harmful? Or the information can be used to wipe out life off the face of the earth by unscrupulous people or people who don't completely understand the consequences of this information/technology?

Sorry you two, I have orphaned this thread because I had my plate full for a while... well I still do but ah what the heck.

On your first two questions... people have a capacity limit on dealing with complexities and when they do they shutdown and delegated it to someone else more specialized. Gross inefficiency is not likely. The harmful part is becoming unquestioning cogs and consumers. It is like media ya know... things are so complicated most of us just absorbs whatever there is.

As for the last one... yeah, that's a possibility. Doesn't really take too much nowadays to kill nearly everyone.