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Dialectic
Apr 8th, 2005, 06:10 AM
This post details Wilber's stance on absolute cross-cultural/ religious enlightenment. This addresses criticisms that, for example, Taoist, Buddhist, Sufi, and Christian Mystical insight should not be considered comparable, are fundamentally different, and that anyone who tries to find or sees commonalities in their conceptions of enlightenment is a dilettante who has no real understanding of the specific culture/ religion.

This post should be of special interest to Sothy; da Tao may wish to check it out out of general intellectual interest and curiosity; Fux, Ram, Kejia, and B may or may not appreciate it, depending on how much they've contemplated this sort of thing already.

I'm going to be directly transcribing Wilber's endnote from page 627-32 of Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality, 2nd ed.:

There is a great deal of semantic and philosophic confusion around the topic of "direct experience," usually centering on the question, does it even exist? Isn't all experience actually mediated by concepts, mental sets, cultural background values, and so forth? Since all knowledge/ experience is situated and mediated, the best we can hope for is a hermeneutic study of individual pockets of "local knowledge," and any transcendental claims, of any sort, are largely unwarranted - or so the argument goes.

This has, among many other things, particularly caused turmoil in the comparative study of mystical experiences. Steven Katz and his colleagues, for example, in a series of articles and books, have made the strong claim that since all experience is mediated - Katz: "There are no pure (i.e., unmediated) experiences" - then there can be no commonalities (or cross-cultural similarities) in mystical experiences. Since each culture and each belief system is different, and these different sets are partially constitutive of the mystical experience, then there is and can be no common mystical experience, and this also, it is said, undercuts the mystical claim to valid or universal knowledge.

This overall general appproach has come loosely to be called "constructivist" - we don't receive knowledge of independent entities, we construct it based on various freeing practices; our basic present experiences are taken up and reworked in a type of neo-Kantian fashion, so that the final display in consciousness is an inseparable mixture of experience and mental-cultural molding.

But this approach suffers, ironically, from not being constructivist enough. To begin with, the dichotomy between experience and construction is a false dichotomy. It is not that there is experience on the one hand and contextual molding on the other. Every experience is a context; every experience, even simple sensory experience, is always already situated, is always already a context, is always already a holon. When Derrida says that "nothing is every simply present," this is true of every holon. As Whitehead would have it, every holon is already a prehensive unification of its entire actual universe: nothing is every simply present (this is also very similar to the Eastern notion of karma, or the past enfolded in the present). Everything is always already a context in a context.

And thus, every holon - and therefore every experience - is always already situated, mediated, contextual. It is not that "original experiences" arrive to be reworked by mental concepts; the original experiences are not original, but a contextual prehensive mediation of boundless contexts. That mind further contextualizes sensory contexts is neither new nor avoidable.

Everything (every holon) is a mediated context, but contexts touch immediately. It does not require "mystical pure consciousness" to be in immediate contact with the data of experience. When any point in the mediated chain is known (or experienced), that knowing or prehending is an immediate event in itself, an immediate "touching." The touching is not a touching of something merely present but rather is itself pure Presence (or prehension). If there were only a mere mediation forever, then nothing would or could ever be known or experienced; there would be nothing to stop the sliding chain from spinning contextually forever (there is no point that it could enter consciousness).

But in any moment of prehension/ experience (and in any domain - sensory, mental, spiritual), there is immediate apprehension of what is given at the moment, and that immediate apprehension is the datum (which William James correctly defined as the given pure experience), and that experiential prehension is pure in the sense that when contexts touch, they touch without further mediation (even if they are always already situated in and as mediated contexts).

At the moment of touch, there is no mediation; if there is mediation, there is no touching. To say everything is merely mediated is simply a fancy modern twist on pure skepticism, which is profoundly self-contradictory (it says, "I have an unshakeable foundation belief that foundations are not possible," which simply allows the skeptic to trash everybody else's beliefs while conveniently leaving his own unexamined).

[To be continued. Perhaps some of you will be able to see where this is going.]

da Tao
Apr 8th, 2005, 12:40 PM
I got lost around.... here:

But this approach suffers, ironically, from not being constructivist enough. To begin with, the dichotomy between experience and construction is a false dichotomy. It is not that there is experience on the one hand and contextual molding on the other. Every experience is a context; every experience, even simple sensory experience, is always already situated, is always already a context, is always already a holon. When Derrida says that "nothing is every simply present," this is true of every holon. As Whitehead would have it, every holon is already a prehensive unification of its entire actual universe: nothing is every simply present (this is also very similar to the Eastern notion of karma, or the past enfolded in the present). Everything is always already a context in a context.

What exactly does he mean by situated? and what is meant by already situated? This seems to be something about the nature of holons: for any particular "thing", how it will be perceived is already encoded/embodied in its quardants... so that is already taken into account.... but then I am thinking... so what?

KeJia Sista
Apr 13th, 2005, 06:38 PM
Dialectic, no offense but sometimes you make my head hurt. Isn't there any way you can break some of these ideas down into non-confuse'em English? Or thoughts and ideas that don't depend so heavily on being familiar with scholarly research?

I think this is asking whether mystical insights and experiences are cross cultural/cross religious? And if they are influenced by our material and mental realities? Our culture, or are they of pure essence?

I think there is a Cosmic Consciousness of ultimate truth; with basic ideas that hold in whatever culture, that is tapped into by people everywhere. The idea of "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" seems to appear under some form in the spirituality of all cultures. Meetings with angels, spirit teachers, gods, God, Goddesses, immortals is also crosscultural. Descriptions from those who died and were resuscitated seem to be cross cultural.

But then, the vision withing the cultural and spiritual belief that all of nature is one; the two legged, four leggeds, winged ones and standing ones; of a woman who gives a message of living in harmony with nature who then turns into a White Buffao as she walks away;-- might be cross-cultural to a Taoist as well as a traditional Native; but to the person whose mystical experience is within the guidelines of life being a hierarchy with male human life at the top; here to subdue the earth and the animals - this message would be interpreted in quite a different way.

Whats a holon?

Ke Jia

B the student
Apr 13th, 2005, 07:08 PM
^here's the thread that discusses what a holon is KeJia:

http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=48926#48926

and remember no pain, no gain. :wink:

KeJia Sista
Apr 13th, 2005, 09:10 PM
^here's the thread that discusses what a holon is KeJia:

http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=48926#48926

and remember no pain, no gain. :wink:

Oh I get it now!
Ke Jia

JadeDragon
Apr 13th, 2005, 11:42 PM
I got lost around.... here:

But this approach suffers, ironically, from not being constructivist enough. To begin with, the dichotomy between experience and construction is a false dichotomy. It is not that there is experience on the one hand and contextual molding on the other. Every experience is a context; every experience, even simple sensory experience, is always already situated, is always already a context, is always already a holon. When Derrida says that "nothing is every simply present," this is true of every holon. As Whitehead would have it, every holon is already a prehensive unification of its entire actual universe: nothing is every simply present (this is also very similar to the Eastern notion of karma, or the past enfolded in the present). Everything is always already a context in a context.

What exactly does he mean by situated? and what is meant by already situated? This seems to be something about the nature of holons: for any particular "thing", how it will be perceived is already encoded/embodied in its quardants... so that is already taken into account.... but then I am thinking... so what?

I think this means that any experience in itself is a part of some greater whole, which also in itself will be a part of another whole, and each of these already hold significance at the time of its inception. At the very moment that one experiences something, there is already meaning(s) imbedded in it as a consequence of what the previous moments have brought about.

Dialectic
Apr 19th, 2005, 04:49 AM
What exactly does he mean by situated? and what is meant by already situated? This seems to be something about the nature of holons: for any particular "thing", how it will be perceived is already encoded/embodied in its quardants... so that is already taken into account.... but then I am thinking... so what?

The "so what?" which you ask is EXACTLY Wilber's point as well: Katz and his fellows would say that since all religious experience is always already culturally-situated, that thus, in his opinion, they cannot be compared, and that universal generalizations cannot be made, and that they can only be judged from the "inside." Wilber agrees that all experience is always already situated in boundless contexts, and he answers, so what? That doesn't stop direct experiencing.

Dialectic
Apr 19th, 2005, 04:53 AM
Dialectic, no offense but sometimes you make my head hurt. Isn't there any way you can break some of these ideas down into non-confuse'em English? Or thoughts and ideas that don't depend so heavily on being familiar with scholarly research?

We have some threads that break stuff down to common language and first principles, and some that don't. This is probably one of the ones in the "don't" category, though it can be broken with some explanation. I'll put up the rest of the passage in a few posts, and then we'll see if anyone wants to discuss this further.

I think this is asking whether mystical insights and experiences are cross cultural/cross religious? And if they are influenced by our material and mental realities? Our culture, or are they of pure essence?

Yup, this is asking, basically, whether we can find universal truths across cultures, religions, and by extension, individuals (not to mention states and levels of individuals!).

I think there is a Cosmic Consciousness of ultimate truth; with basic ideas that hold in whatever culture, that is tapped into by people everywhere. The idea of "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" seems to appear under some form in the spirituality of all cultures. Meetings with angels, spirit teachers, gods, God, Goddesses, immortals is also crosscultural. Descriptions from those who died and were resuscitated seem to be cross cultural.

I'd agree with you there, in broad strokes. So would Wilber.

But then, the vision withing the cultural and spiritual belief that all of nature is one; the two legged, four leggeds, winged ones and standing ones; of a woman who gives a message of living in harmony with nature who then turns into a White Buffao as she walks away;-- might be cross-cultural to a Taoist as well as a traditional Native; but to the person whose mystical experience is within the guidelines of life being a hierarchy with male human life at the top; here to subdue the earth and the animals - this message would be interpreted in quite a different way.

I'd generally agree with you there, too. We are looking at two things here: an individual's level of cognitive/ moral/ spiritual development (okay, a bunch of things if we split that up), along with how these levels of development are translated through the prevailing cultural lens.

(Someone who has a divine "psychic" Tier III experience, for example, may see angels or angelic presences from a Western cultural background; from the East they may perceive a net of mirrored pearls.)

Dialectic
Apr 19th, 2005, 04:54 AM
I think this means that any experience in itself is a part of some greater whole, which also in itself will be a part of another whole, and each of these already hold significance at the time of its inception. At the very moment that one experiences something, there is already meaning(s) imbedded in it as a consequence of what the previous moments have brought about.

We'll go further into this quite soon! I think everyone here has the basic idea.

Dialectic
Apr 19th, 2005, 05:04 AM
[cont'd from my first post]

At the moment of touch, in any domain, there is no mediation, only prehension. This is why knowledge (and experience) of any sort is possible in the first place. That there is a "first place" means that mediation has stopped at some point (the point of touching). This is why when experience occurs in any domain (sensory, mental, spiritual), it is simply given, it is simply the case, it simply shows up, even though the experienced and the experiencer are forever situated and contextual. I find myself in immediate experience of mediated worlds ....

In short, experience is immediate prehension of whatever mediated contexts are given, and that is why all experience is both pure (immediate) and contextual (capable of being refined and recontextualized indefinitely). As we will see, this is why Habermas maintains that all validity claims have botn an immanent (culture-bound) and a transcendent (pure) component, and it is the transcendent component that allows intersubjective communication and learning to occur in the first place.

Thus, even Katz, as he ponders the "mediated nature of all experience" comes to a point where that notion itself, and his knowing of it, are not mediated. At some point in the mediation chain, the datum per se enters his consciousness directly, he directly touches the notion, and he says, "I know this" or "I believe this" or "I experience this." Whatever the space is that allows Katz to claim that all experience is mediated - that space is somehow free of mediation or he would never be able to make that statement. To say that all experience is mediated is to stand in a space that is not itself mediated. Put differently, if everything is only mediated, he would have no way to know it. The mediating chain would never stop long enough for him to touch it; it would have no point of entry to his awareness: if the self were merely situated, it would never know it. Even to be able to make the mistake of saying it is only situated demonstrates that it is not.

This undercuts Katz's whole line of attack on mysticism, because his attack applies to his own attack: it is self-defeating. That is, Katz claims that all experience is mediated and this is true for all cultures, with no exceptions - and thus he is claiming to be in possessino of a nonrelative truth that is true cross-culturally and universally, something that his formal thesis denies is possible for anybody. He is making universal/ transcendental claims about reality which he denies to everybody else, thus hiding the real issue of how transcendental claims are in fact made, not just in "mystical" experiences but in everyday ordinary communication.

[cont'd]