Wealth and Greed

[Dialectic]

Wealth isn't balance. No diss intended.

I wasn't referring to having tons of riches and Lamborghini doors on my Escalade (though that'd be fun), and I don't think deskjet0 meant anything that extreme either. But if s/he wants to travel, sip some fine wine, and go to concerts every so often, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Financial stability and prosperity are actually quite important to overall development; it is a very romantic notion to elevate starving artists and monks as living some sort of purer life for artistic or spiritual goals. More often than not, they fail, simply because without a solid fundamental base (right health, right living, not concerned with getting by day to day, week to week, and month to month) it is unlikely one can grow in more significant directions (artistic, spiritual, academic, etc.). Don't diss money.

[cattygurl]

Not having to *worry* about money and being able to save is nice, since I'm currently not there at this time.

I don't think wanting to be comfortable is anything to be ashamed at- I suppose what degree of "comfort" is the difference.

For me, I want to be able to pay for my bills and save for retirement. i would like to be able to travel a little bit, maybe once or twice a year. I want to have a reliable car with excellent gas mileage. I want to be able to fix my house when it breaks without worrying if I can pay for my bills. I want to be able to pay for the vet bills without worrying about my upcoming bills. I don't want much above and beyond that.

I have no desire to reproduce. I'd rather pass on what I've learned to other people- other kids, friends, whoever. I feel that's much more of a legacy than just my crappy genes.

I like to learn new things, and hopefully i'll never stop. If I was a Rockerfeller, I'd probably be in college for the rest of my life, and I'd be pursuing and learning about different arts and hopefully become good enough to teach others. I'm just curious by nature, and I like to learn from other people and pass my knowledge on as well.

i'd like to leave this place a better place for life- whether it's plants, bugs, animals, or human.

[blockthebox]

Wealth isn't balance. No diss intended.
Ke Jia

Greed is bad. Wealth rooted in greed and without generosity isn't balance and is, therefore, bad.

I'll admit it - I wanna be wealthy. And not just to meet basic needs and save for retirement either. I like nice things and being able to buy nice things for family and friends. More than that, money makes life more comfortable and pays for experiences I wouldn't otherwise be able to have.

[kimtae]

Wealth isn't balance. No diss intended.
Ke Jia

Greed is bad. Wealth rooted in greed and without generosity isn't balance and is, therefore, bad.

I'll admit it - I wanna be wealthy. And not just to meet basic needs and save for retirement either. I like nice things and being able to buy nice things for family and friends. More than that, money makes life more comfortable and pays for experiences I wouldn't otherwise be able to have.Gordon Gekko: The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works.

Greed is one of the purest emotions. We want, we lust, we need. It gets us up and out to our cubicles every morning. Anyone who says they aren't greedy or materialistic is full of shit. Even the most liberal tree-hugging hippie is a greedy bastard. He's the worst kind, in fact. He wants a free ride. Hell, nothing in life is free. Everything comes about because some schmuck has to go out and till the soil, drill the rock, mine, the ground, sail the seas, push the papers, and make sure that shit gets done. The lucky ones are the ones who are wealthy or otherwised secured enough to get off the ride. The research scientist looking for a cure for cancer, he's got his own kind of greed. He wants to be able to go to his well-funded lab and pursue his work without distraction, without partaking in the daily grind that I have to face in order to make sure my tiny part of the machine is turning correctly. Yeah, maybe his work is more important tahn mine so he sould get what he wants, but don't tell me he doesn't have the same greedy motivation that lots of us face, the fucking desire to get off the ride. The priest or nun working away in the face of poverty, that's just another form of greed. They got what they want, they got spiritual currency and they used it to pull the stop cord on the train and got off while the rest of us continue as cogs in the greater machine known as human society. The smug asshole who tells you he has all he wants and is happy not being rich, just "secure", he's a fucking liar. His greed is only surpassed by his fear, fear that he'll lose his security. He's a greedy fucker too.
There is nothing wrong with greed. It motivates. Just don't forget to round out yourself with a capacity for generosity and kindness as well. In fact, I find that the more I profit through my greed, the greater the compassion and charity that I can share with my fellow man.

[Dialectic]

Gordon Gekko: The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works.

The 80s "Greed is good" craze wasn't actually a good, sustainable thing. Greed is bad because it leads you to make bad, bad choice in the long- (and possibly short-) run. Wanting to continuously develop and improve your cognitive, artistic, financial, etc. resources is good.

The research scientist wanting to develop a cure for cancer because he wants to cure cancer, well, you can say he's "greedy" in that his motivation comes from himself (and is thus self-interested), but that's not actually "greedy" in any classic traditional sense.

Incidentally, in Spiral Dynamics, an Orange COG individual would put forth the argument that all people are motivated by selfishness, greed, pleasure-principle, etc. This outlook is falls away at Green and is transcended certainly at Third Tier and largely transcended at Second. Can the motive to sacrifice one's life, health, and welfare for one's family or one's people "greedy"? Orange says yes, because you still get something out of it, the feeling of satisfaction or pleasure from the sacrifice, but this is a very tenuous argument, as it then defines anything as pleasurable: you do what sucks because you like it, you do what you like because you like it, you don't do shit because you like it, whichever way you cut it you're greedy, etc. The argument becomes circular and "greed" loses any intrinsic meaning.

[cattygurl]

There is nothing wrong with greed. It motivates. Just don't forget to round out yourself with a capacity for generosity and kindness as well. In fact, I find that the more I profit through my greed, the greater the compassion and charity that I can share with my fellow man.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with being self-serving. It's all a matter of balance, and that fine equilibrium is different with every person. I agree that when we are doing well, it's easier to help others in need, mentally-emotionally- and otherwise. I also agree with BTB in terms of being able to buy nice things and experience things that would not be possible without the greens.

The key i think, isn't having money or not having money per say. The key is knowing the limitations of both options. I think a lot of unhappiness comes from not willing to accept the limitations of either options. It's perfectly possible to have happiness with a lot of money or very little money. It's about balancing your needs and wants and knowing what's really good for you and important. People think certain things are really important when they're not, and vice-versa. Knowing yourself and your limitations are the keys to happiness and keys to acheiving what you want out of life, regardless of what that may be.

[vsoy]

Actually, now I'm a little confused with greed as the ultimate motivation... greed seems to be a motivation to acquire or amass material items (money, food). Certainly we're all little oinkers to some degree, but after awhile, you get full. What is the motivation or drive after that beside perpetuating a state of saturation? What about glory, making a difference, improving oneself or making the most of life as motivators?

[cattygurl]

What about glory, making a difference, improving oneself or making the most of life as motivators?

It takes a lot more hard effort and determination to do those things than to buy and amass material goods. The fact is that all of us will, to a degree, take the easy way out in a lot of ways. I think people that have enough passion, curiosity and generosity that try to do the above (damn difficult to do any of those things without the qualities listed, I think) - and fundamentally evolve as human beings- have a lot more going for them than people that don't do the above, regardless of their financial status.

[kimtae]

Actually, now I'm a little confused with greed as the ultimate motivation... greed seems to be a motivation to acquire or amass material items (money, food). Certainly we're all little oinkers to some degree, but after awhile, you get full. What is the motivation or drive after that beside perpetuating a state of saturation? What about glory, making a difference, improving oneself or making the most of life as motivators?Every time I make a deal that cuts out the other guy, I get flush wtih the thrill of victory. You think Donald Trump cares about money? He loses money by the tens of millions but he keeps coming back bigger each time. Money is just the stakes, it's the game that counts. I'm no Donald, but I love twisting the knife in the competition's back.
A few years ago, as I was putting together a J/V we had a meeting with the 500 lb gorilla that would be our main competition. I was told bluntly to cancel the deal, or, "I will bury you." Very Kruschevesque, no? 4 years later, we took a big bite out of his business by going out and getting an 800 lb gorilla as our main buyer. Makes me feel warm inside. It's all about the game.
Dialectic, you just proved my point, it's all moot. We are all greedy, it's at our evolutionary core. We just need to learn how to harness that energy.

[Dialectic]

Dialectic, you just proved my point, it's all moot. We are all greedy, it's at our evolutionary core. We just need to learn how to harness that energy.

Actually, no. That doesn't prove a thing. Greediness loses all meaning when we begin by defining that everything someone does/doesn't do is "greedy" simply because SOMEONE does/doesn't do it. Then dying to save someone's life is "greedy," giving money to a cause is "greedy," sacrificing my dreams to raise my family is "greedy."

Enlightened self-interest is not greed. Evolution is about a lot more than pleasure principle and self-interested drives. The Self expands. Integral Slanted goes into this in much further detail.

The 80s are over. Rampant M&A, the propsect of infinite bullish expansion was as stable as a .com economy. Gekko was not cool or right: he looked cool but was unsustainable and would eventually eat himself up.

[JadeDragon]

I think a lot of unhappiness comes from not willing to accept the limitations of either options. It's perfectly possible to have happiness with a lot of money or very little money. It's about balancing your needs and wants and knowing what's really good for you and important. People think certain things are really important when they're not, and vice-versa. Knowing yourself and your limitations are the keys to happiness and keys to acheiving what you want out of life, regardless of what that may be.

I would agree with this; it isn't exactly the amount of wealth that one has amassed which determines happiness, but rather whether that particular individual is happy with his/her financial position, regardless of magnitude. I also believe that harbouring a desire for material wealth just to impress and/or put down other people does hardly any good in the long run, because one's purpose in life soon becomes consumed with that desire and very little else, thus restricting one's development as a human being.

As for myself, I'd like to have enough money in order not to want it at all (does that make sense?) I'd want to be able to provide for my parents and siblings while doing the things that I love (and not have to prostrate myself for a corporate wage). I'd want to be able to travel with my family and friends, buy beautiful things for myself and my loved ones, study any subject that steals my fancy, and get a couple more tattoos along the way (ink is expensive, yo! :twisted: ).

And like Cattygurl, I'd like to leave this world a better place for others to live in too.

[KeJia Sista]

I still think greed is not a good thing
(Greed: acquisitiveness or selfish desire beyond reason)

I do not accept that choice is between greed and poverty; that if you are not greedy -- wanting more than your share, you must live like a starviing artists. There is a happy medium between wearing rags and holding out a begging bowl; and owning far more than could be used in a lifetime.

Some see nature as something that humans have been given "dominion over" it is to be used to extract whatever resources can be sucked to produce "wealth" and human beings likewise here to extract resources and turn them into wealth so that a small percentage of people can have excess.

A part of this belief system is that there is never enough to go around, that if you had enough and even a little extra that you might lose it. The best way to insure that you will always have yours is for you to take mine too!

For society to be successful the people should have health, peace, sufficient food to eat, a comfortable place to live and the opportunity to participate in the community in a respected way.

I have a vision of a a society where everyone is not standing on tiptoe reaching for more. If we continue down this road of conspicuous consumption what will be left for the 7th generation? What would the world be like if everyone in China desires a car? Already the US has fought two wars partially for our freedom to drive SUVs.

"Everyone should have access to the collective wisdom and knowledge of the society, and should expect that life will be spiritually and emotionally fulfilling for themselves and for future generations. This in turn implies awareness for the earths life-support systems." - Native American

"Fame or your body, which do you want more?
Your body or your wealth, which do you value more?
Gain or loss, which do you want more?
If you have a lot of desire, you will probably be extravagant.
The more you hoard, the more you will lose.
Know contentment, and you will not be disgraced.
Know when to stop, and you will not meet with danger.
In this way you will be around for a long time." - Tao Te Ching

Ke Jia

[KeJia Sista]

Not having to *worry* about money and being able to save is nice, since I'm currently not there at this time.

I don't think wanting to be comfortable is anything to be ashamed at- I suppose what degree of "comfort" is the difference.

For me, I want to be able to pay for my bills and save for retirement. i would like to be able to travel a little bit, maybe once or twice a year. I want to have a reliable car with excellent gas mileage. I want to be able to fix my house when it breaks without worrying if I can pay for my bills. I want to be able to pay for the vet bills without worrying about my upcoming bills. I don't want much above and beyond that.

I have no desire to reproduce. I'd rather pass on what I've learned to other people- other kids, friends, whoever. I feel that's much more of a legacy than just my crappy genes.

I like to learn new things, and hopefully i'll never stop. If I was a Rockerfeller, I'd probably be in college for the rest of my life, and I'd be pursuing and learning about different arts and hopefully become good enough to teach others. I'm just curious by nature, and I like to learn from other people and pass my knowledge on as well.

i'd like to leave this place a better place for life- whether it's plants, bugs, animals, or human.

I think there have been cultures where people lived like this but it was accessable to all, it was not only for those who had wealth or riches so that a few might accomplish these things; it was a way of life everyone had access to.


Ke Jia

[kimtae]

I think there have been cultures where people lived like this but it was accessable to all, it was not only for those who had wealth or riches so that a few might accomplish these things; it was a way of life everyone had access to.It was called the Soviet Union and it failed miserably.

[Dialectic]

You both have legit and illegitimate points.

1) Competition, capitalism, and democracy together are, at this point the best system under which to govern and run a state/ society, in that they facilitate the most wealth, the most freedom, and the most innovation possible.

2) Older agrarian homeostatic societies had their own oppressive and hierarchical practices. A lot of people tend to look back and romanticize older and seemingly healthier societies, but they had their developmental pathologies/ limitations as well.

3) Utter-greed, or self-interest acquisition, or Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" is not enough to create a sustainable and healthy society. Greed as a primary motivator is not some final, pure solution. The 80s are over; Donald Trump is a far cry from what he used to be. If we were to look at a popularly admired businessman on whom we should model ourselves, perhaps Warren Buffet would be a better role model: he is the perfect example of the smart, wise, and un-greedy long-term view investor. Berkshire-Hathaway doesn't engage in stock splitting, they are very careful to screen both their own investors as well as their investments for actual value, and they were relatively unscathed by the dot com bust.

[angi]

Please mind me if I am a bit incohent as I have been running a 102-103 temp for the past two days (finally broke but I feel it comng back on grr)

I think there is a difference between self-interest and pure greed. Self-interest allows one to attain their goals and grow and inidvidual whereas pure greed puts an object such as money ahead of all other things in life. Like for example, I'd love to be independently wealthy so that I could study whatever interests me and at some point if I can ever get there I would love to open a shelter/home placement center for cats, especially adult cats. Some would argue that it's greedy because I would be doing it to sustain my self-interests and I get personal gain from it. But, IMO, it's significantly different to want to develop yourself and help other regardless of the good things it brings to you and being an all out greedy pig that backstabs people and trashes friendships just to make a quick buck. I think there are way too many people who take that approach and while they might end up with all the cash they could ever need they are miserable because it's never enough and they can never know if the people who they are surrounded by are genuine or are trying pick up some crumbs.

[The Ram]

Hmm..greed, self-interest..the differences..hmm..I know ive used both
terms interchangably..

Would it be meaningful if I added that self interest encompasses a wider
range of motivations whereas greed is a mental virus which only seeks
to replicate itself indefinitely with no lasting satisfaction?

[cattygurl]

... and at some point if I can ever get there I would love to open a shelter/home placement center for cats, especially adult cats.

Angi... too bad you're not a guy... dammit! You would be my dream man. Oh fuck it!!! Marry me, Angi!

[angi]

:shock:

you better watch out catty, or i'll start getting accused of 'stealing our women' ;)

[cattygurl]

^^LOL!!

If I ask JD to marry me too, would that make me a bigamist?

[JadeDragon]

Oh my, then we could have a ceremony like that of Madonna, Christina Aguilera and Britney Spears at the 2003 MTV Video Music Awards. There could be a dance number, corsets, and kinky stiletto-heeled boots. :twisted:

We'd better work on that guest list then, don't want any icky boys at the party. :P

[The Ram]

This is actually turning me on...keep going.

[Dialectic]

No icky boys, Ram. A'ight where's the party at? :P

[Heyyu]

No icky boys, Ram. A'ight where's the party at? :P

http://www.haveanicelife.com/coming_out/thumbnails/lesbian_party_card_10.gif