Westernized vs. Proud Asians

[Taliesin Stormheller]

Have you ever heard people call some Asian-Americans 'Westernized' and others 'traditional'? It's not like bananadom vs. Asian Pride. I've noticed that whenever the white man thinks that we're not acting stereotypically Asian, he calls us 'westernized'- which he might think is a compliment but I take as an insult. Some Asian adults also call certain Asians 'westernized', which *is* an insult. More often than not, the opinions of both parties differ.
For example, whites always say that I'm 'so westernized/liberated', 'ought to marry white', blacks say that I'm 'down' unlike 'those other Asians'. I don't like it when they put down other Asians, and make my opinions known. However, other Asians say that I'm as Asian as can be, all-Asian, Azn Pryde, and older Asians say I'm traditional unlike those 'ABCs'.
Personally, I consider myself to be of the last category- 100% Asianized, not westernized at all.
This may be a form of passing.
Has anyone else a similar experience?

[Scowl]

I didn't vote, because I don't think any of those choices reflect where I am as an Asian in America. I'd say that I'm somewhere between "westernized" and "proud Asian," although the two do not have to be polar opposites of each other.

For the most part, I've been "more Asian" than a lot of the guys I know, but older folks mostly just see me as another wannabe American. When they call me that, I know that it's not that kind of in-your-face insult, but it sure as hell ain't a compliment. As much as I detest their most idiotic of traditional values, there's a part of me that still wants some kind of acceptance from them.

I've only very recently even begun to become comfortable with who I am. I'm just so tired of trying to live up to the expectations of others. I won't forget who I am or where I come from, but that works both ways, as well. I've always said that I could identify with hapas to some degree, because I come from two different backgrounds, and I will never fully belong to one, or the other. And I can't just reject those parts of me. It's not as simple as cutting a part of you away with a knife, and I've tried going that route.

I guess my personal identity crisis begins to come to a close as I realize that my choices are not limited to becoming either one, or the other. Like a shemale, I, too can be the best of both worlds.

[eskimo]

Yeah, I think Kipling was wrong with the "...never the twain shall meet" idea.

It's not easy, but I definitely think you can integrate eastern and western ideologies and identities into one cohesive whole, particularly on an individual level. I always strive to integrate the best qualities of both sides into my personality and character.

Many times, though, I see Asian-Americans selecting negative traits from each side in a very self-centered way, something I too have been guilty of.

[xian]

Here's my take:

http://yellowcontent.blogspot.com/2005/02/sick-of-being-in-between.html


Fuck white language. Fuck two worlds. This world belongs to us.

[Taliesin Stormheller]

What I'm saying is that I am actually a traditional Asian, but that stupid crackas *think* I'm 'Americanized' or whatever because I can speak English (and, quite frankly, do) better than they, am a feminist, am highly politicized (strong-ass Republican), listen to metal, and am very uninhibited. (Those were the reasons that they gave, some of them sound strange but that's white folks for ya.) Fortunately, FOBs think of me as their own because I AM a FOB. :) Twinkies, however, keep a wide berth.

I don't see this 'torn between two cultures' bullshit being fed to East Asian Americans that much anymore, but I do see Westerners increasingly applying it to the West/South Asian experience. And, unfortunately, some of my Desi friends are eating it up and starting to chase white guys :( ... all in the name of 'liberation'......
'Tis truly sad. That's why we need a real Asian American culture.

[BeTheReds]

I don't think the poll is very good.

Couldn't you technically be both?

[Heyyu]

I guess my personal identity crisis begins to come to a close as I realize that my choices are not limited to becoming either one, or the other. Like a shemale, I, too can be the best of both worlds.

Amen to that, yes it's possible to be both a Westernized AND proud Asian shemale brotha'.

So you go girl! To quote the immortal movie Clerks: "I've seen beautiful chicks with dicks that put mine to shame"

[Scowl]

I don't see this 'torn between two cultures' bullshit being fed to East Asian Americans that much anymore

Seeing this comment and reading xian's blog response compels me to respond. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it was never about being conflicted over which "side" I should join. For me, it's always been about not belonging to either one, and wanting to find a home - to be a part of something, and to fit in somewhere.

It was the idea that neither side would ever have me, and the desperate need for some kind of acceptance.

I've always characterized myself as "in between" because, frankly, there has never been an evident third option. It's always been either A or B, with no apparent "C" choice. And you can define yourself by your own terms all you want, but interactions with the outside world will show you just how many people share those views. In the end, you must have conviction, or else you surrender.

Couldn't you technically be both?

That's the third option that has never been so readily apparent. Of course, once you reach that option, a fourth one opens up. Eventually, it gets to a point where it's the rest of the world that has some catching up to do.

So I don't think we are "in-between"--we are just "in-process" like everyone else.

I agree in the sense that "in-between" implies that you must eventually swing one way or the other, but that too few realize that it can lead to its own path. Might be an advantage - after all, it forces you to at least consider an alternative mindset. It comes with it a greater potential to expand and grow. It never gets easier, though. Nothing that's worth it ever does.

So you go girl! To quote the immortal movie Clerks: "I've seen beautiful chicks with dicks that put mine to shame"

I said like a shemale, not as one. Yeesh. Caitlin was gonna marry an AM, though. Woohoo! Too bad she turned out to be kinda skanky.

[xian]

Thanks for giving such a thoughtful, civil response. I reread your earlier response last night and realized that my blog post might have come across as an attack.

Your latest response helps crystalize it in my mind--given a world where only the two responses are available, it is natural for us to feel torn. But as you say, ideally we learn that there is our own unique choice that is skill and characterstic based rather than manufactured identity based.

I think your further observation that the "disadvantage" of not having the niche open and waiting for us can be helpful in forcing us to pursue an alternative mindset and the resulting greater potential.

[eskimo]

Oprah Winfrey is a person for whom I have great respect.

Despite her very humble and oppressive roots in segregated Mississippi, she has created and developed a very powerful and influential social empire. And despite criticisms that she is a control freak and has recently become too self-serving, I believe she deserves all the power and wealth she has amassed.

The foundation for her empire and the key to her success is the fact that she has integrated black and white America. She understands people and the differing nuances of black culture and white culture and has masterfully united them within her sphere of influence, resulting in an idealistic realm which naturally attracts multidudes of individuals.

She has done all this by taking control of her situation, creating her own integrated identity, creating her own realm, and then sharing it with the rest of America. An indomitable force she is, having risen above the level of the natural forces.

[KeJia Sista]

Oprah Winfrey is a person for whom I have great respect.

Despite her very humble and oppressive roots in segregated Mississippi, she has created and developed a very powerful and influential social empire. And despite criticisms that she is a control freak and has recently become too self-serving, I believe she deserves all the power and wealth she has amassed.

The foundation for her empire and the key to her success is the fact that she has integrated black and white America. She understands people and the differing nuances of black culture and white culture and has masterfully united them within her sphere of influence, resulting in an idealistic realm which naturally attracts multidudes of individuals.

She has done all this by taking control of her situation, creating her own integrated identity, creating her own realm, and then sharing it with the rest of America. An indomitable force she is, having risen above the level of the natural forces.


Did you see any of her early shows?
Ke Jia

[Bizarre_Female]

Oprah fan here..she is one of the very few celebs that I truly admire. Critics say that her show caters to whites but I totally disagree..if anything, she caters to women of all races.

[Catatonic]

What I'm saying is that I am actually a traditional Asian, but that stupid crackas *think* I'm 'Americanized' or whatever because I can speak English (and, quite frankly, do) better than they, am a feminist, am highly politicized (strong-ass Republican), listen to metal, and am very uninhibited.

Hmmm - you speak English, rejected certain traditional aspects of Asian culture which is paternalistic, are a "strong-ass Republican" (not exactly a party that is friendly to Asian immigrants and if anything, appeals mostly to the "sell-out" type), listen to non-asian music (metal), and has a personality that is typically not Asian (AA is another matter).

So why are you any different from all the other "Americanized" AA?

[eskimo]

Oprah Winfrey is a person for whom I have great respect.

Despite her very humble and oppressive roots in segregated Mississippi, she has created and developed a very powerful and influential social empire. And despite criticisms that she is a control freak and has recently become too self-serving, I believe she deserves all the power and wealth she has amassed.

The foundation for her empire and the key to her success is the fact that she has integrated black and white America. She understands people and the differing nuances of black culture and white culture and has masterfully united them within her sphere of influence, resulting in an idealistic realm which naturally attracts multidudes of individuals.

She has done all this by taking control of her situation, creating her own integrated identity, creating her own realm, and then sharing it with the rest of America. An indomitable force she is, having risen above the level of the natural forces.


Did you see any of her early shows?
Ke Jia



Not quite sure how to interpret your post but, yes, I've seen some of her earlier shows -- not the ones in the first couple years but those a bit later.

[blockthebox]

For me, it's always been about not belonging to either one, and wanting to find a home - to be a part of something, and to fit in somewhere.

It was the idea that neither side would ever have me, and the desperate need for some kind of acceptance.

This is how I always felt. I usually characterize myself as a twinkie, but I don't use it as a pejorative. I use it to describe the in-betweenness I feel.

It gets better as I get older. When I was young, I always insisted that people treat me as an individual. Even though individuality is the ideal, I don't press the issue anymore - partly because I don't think I'll really ever be seen as an individual, partly because I just don't care how I'm perceived by someone (on a one-on-one level) and partly because I'm just really comfortable with who I am now: Asian and American with no need to swing any other way.

[Taliesin Stormheller]

Hmmm - you speak English, rejected certain traditional aspects of Asian culture which is paternalistic, are a "strong-ass Republican" (not exactly a party that is friendly to Asian immigrants and if anything, appeals mostly to the "sell-out" type), listen to non-asian music (metal), and has a personality that is typically not Asian (AA is another matter).

So why are you any different from all the other "Americanized" AA?

I am not a westernized twinkie. I eat rice with chopsticks, listen to Asian Metal (Check out Beyond and X Japan), can stir fry anybody's ass off, fight mightily against racemixing, am filial and will pay for my parents so that they would not have to go on Social Security and 401K when they are old, will major in a math/science because my parents said so, vote for the party with JOHN LIU (first Chinese City Councilman in Flushing) in it, speak read and write Chinese better than I do English, am a vegetarian which is an Asian tradition (Westernized Asians eat steak/McDs all day long), use FT Shiseido, Sifone and other Asian hygiene products, go to a Chinese Church instead of a non-Asian one or none at all, and am postponing dating until after grad school, unlike Americanized AA who date as undergraduates- yuck. I play piano instead of guitar, and Americanized AA would play guitar or drums. I also dislike most WM even though I'm not racist. And I have uniquely Asian habits such as using maxipads instead of Tampax, and brushing my teeth after breakfast instead of before.

[ellencho]

And I have uniquely Asian habits such as using maxipads instead of Tampax
:?: Wuh? Do they not sell 'pons in asia? Those things are lifesavers. And especially now they make the applicators a whole lot more comfortable than they used to be.

Anyway, Talies, why is it so important to you to prove how asian you are? Is this some sort of a contest that I'm not aware of?

[awong]

proving someone is more asian than each other is stupid, especially when your the one being called not asian enough

[Catatonic]

I am not a westernized twinkie. I eat rice with chopsticks, listen to Asian Metal (Check out Beyond and X Japan), can stir fry anybody's ass off, fight mightily against racemixing, am filial and will pay for my parents so that they would not have to go on Social Security and 401K when they are old, will major in a math/science because my parents said so, vote for the party with JOHN LIU (first Chinese City Councilman in Flushing) in it, speak read and write Chinese better than I do English, am a vegetarian which is an Asian tradition (Westernized Asians eat steak/McDs all day long), use FT Shiseido, Sifone and other Asian hygiene products, go to a Chinese Church instead of a non-Asian one or none at all, and am postponing dating until after grad school, unlike Americanized AA who date as undergraduates- yuck. I play piano instead of guitar, and Americanized AA would play guitar or drums. I also dislike most WM even though I'm not racist. And I have uniquely Asian habits such as using maxipads instead of Tampax, and brushing my teeth after breakfast instead of before.

Well... I eat rice with chopsticks; listen to some K-pop (anyway, J-pop and Asian metal are just an asian copy of American music genres); cook a decent no. of Corean dishes; (alright, I don't object to dating outside my ethnicity); am filial and would support my parents (not that they would need any help); went into a profession my parents could be proud of; (how can you be a "strong-ass Republican" and support John Liu - a DEMOCRAT?); (I probably don't speak or read Corean as well you do Mandarin or Cantonese); (Koreans aren't noted for being vegetarians - though some are - plus, I love meat, kalbi - mmm, good); (I buy the cheapest shampoo/soap - no real diff. in terms of getting the job done); (I read up and educate myself on the teaching of Jesus and Buddha and other learned individuals - why have you adopted a white man's religion?); (the young people in Asia date); I play the cello (the cello and piano btw are both western instruments); (I like many whites, dislike some); (can't say I've used maxipads or tampax but I have bought them for others); (brushing your teeth after breakfast is not just an asian practice).

So basically, the only real differences btwn you and I are that you - won't date outside your ethnicity, dislike more white people than I do, speak Mandarin or Cantonese better than I do Korean and you worship in a church.

I really don't see how you are that diff. from other "Americanized" AA (other than your attitude towards whites).

Btw - I also take my shoes off when walking around in my home.

[toml]

So why are you any different from all the other "Americanized" AA?

I'm curious, but why is there this belief that certain traits are more "Western/American" and others are more "Asian?"

If you spend any real time in Asia and get to know it's people, you will see many diverse opinions and behaviors. Also, the Asians you see in America do not represent the variety of Asians in Asia--so if your only experience is with Asians here, then naturally you will assume that their behavior is the norm.

There are 2 types of people, those who group the world into 2 types of people and those who don't :)

[Taliesin Stormheller]

I am not americanized because I lived in Asia and I am repatriating back to China after college. Also, I am against women staying home after marriage. In western culture, women who are more successful than their husbands are looked down upon. In the great Chinese culture, women are supposed to be strong and equal.

[ellencho]

It's fine that you have your own way of living and your viewpoints in life, but is it really your place to tell people that you're a prouder asian than others or for you to tell people what a proud asian is. Everyone has a system or a way of life that works for them, and just because that's now how you live, doesn't make their way ineffective.

If a black guy was born and raised in asia and lived his life just like his asians neighbors, does that automatically make him a proud asian? If an asian boy is adopted by white parents, and lives his life like his white neighbors does that make him a proud white?

Yes, this is an interesting thread topic-wise but let's please keep the "who's more asian" competition to a minimum.

[Taliesin Stormheller]

Hmm, well, I guess identity is a personal thing and it's not my place to criticize others' points of view. Sorry about that. BTW, when my mom was a kid she knew some black/white 'ex pat' kids who were proud to be Chinese. So I guess identity can be full of diversity.

[Catatonic]

I am not americanized because I lived in Asia and I am repatriating back to China after college. Also, I am against women staying home after marriage. In western culture, women who are more successful than their husbands are looked down upon. In the great Chinese culture, women are supposed to be strong and equal.

Well, I lived in Asia too, however I am definitely not going back (permanently, that is). Btw - just curious, if you are not even going to be around here - why are you so interested in an AA culture?

Your attitude regarding women not staying home after marriage is certainly commendable (but for women who want to stay home - that's alright too) but that certainly is not a "traditional" Chinese outlook.

From what you have stated so far, you seem pretty "americanized" - you just also have a heightened sense of Sino pride.

I don't think that more successful women are looked down upon here - if anything, their husbands are looked down upon and even that attitude is changing.

Chinese culture, like pretty much all asian cultures (and most cultures everywhere) have been traditionally very male oriented with women having almost no rights. Hence the Chinese proverbs - "A woman without talent is a woman of virtue." or "It is more profitable to raise geese than daughters."

In addition, the traditional:

3 obediences: obey her father before marriage, her husband after marriage, and her son after her husband’s death.

4 virtues: she be chaste, her conversion courteous and not gossipy, her deportment graceful but not extravagant, her leisure spent in perfecting needlework and tapestry for beautifying the home.

I think you are mistaking Communism (a WM's idea) for Chinese culture - which is a recent development (1949) - the French Rev. which espoused egalite for women was about 160 years earlier.

Sorry to burst your bubble but China (I think the key phrase is "supposed to be strong and equal") like all nations, have high rates of spousal abuse, sexual harrassment towards women, employment discrimination, etc.


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-09/21/content_265993.htm

In the 1980s, cohabitation between unmarried man and woman was a shameful act in people's eyes. Nowadays, however, over 80 percent of the women surveyed adopt an indifferent attitude, thinking that it is not necessarily to have a "marriage certificate" as long as a couple love each other.

A survey among Beijingers indicates that women are the main objects of sexual harassment. 71 percent of those surveyed have encountered sexual harassment, of whom 54 percent have heard pornographic jokes, 29 percent have the addiction of exposure, 27 percent have experienced unwilling body touch with others, 8 percent have been peeped and 2 percent have received harassment phone.


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/04/content_32
0442.htm

In the face of discriminatory hiring practices, some female college graduates are resorting to unconventional strategies.

Besides the traditional scenarios of visiting job fairs and mailing out resumes, some female college graduates have started attaching revealing photographs to their resumes.

Inclusion of an eye-grabbing photo of the student clad in a school uniform, mini-skirt or even a bikini is seen as a way to impress prospective employers and boost the chances of landing a job.

It's an open secret in China that female college graduates suffer discrimination from employers when applying for jobs. The inequation is known to almost all colleges students, including graduate students.
The situation has prompted more experts to call for an immediate elimination of all discriminatory employment practices, direct or indirect, against female college students.

"The provision of preferring male students to female students on job applications is definitely a gender-based prejudice which violates Chinese law,'' says Professor Li Xiandong with China University of Political Science and Law.

Despite intense criticism, employers continue to defend their preference for hiring male college grads.

A personnel manager with a Beijing electronic firm says most firms want to hire males because females are more likely to be affected by marriage and family lives.

"What's more, employing more women will push up our production cost because female workers have to be given pregnancy and maternity benefits in line with labour laws,'' says the personnel manager, who declines to be named.

As you can see, things aren't that diff. from here. And China is getting so competitive that people are resorting to plastic surgery to get an "edge" (yes, this happens all across Asia and a lot here too).

[toml]

Catatonic: you bring up good points and I don't dispute them, but it's always been my understanding that it's the uneducated (i.e. peasants) that treat their women as servants--whereas the intellectuals actually prided themselves on a sense of equality among the gender. Of course with every dynasty, there was a change in perception.

I don't know the exact details, but from my conversations with others, I remember hearing that there are several dynasties where women were considered complete equals.

For instance, regarding the Tang Dynasty

According to the Tang Code, a couple wishing to divorce on the basis of mutual consent and a peaceful process were not to be punished. This signifies that the law protected people's right to divorce through consultation. Historical records show that it was not unusual for women to divorce or remarry at this time. As a contrast to the prevailing attitude of other feudal dynasties, a widow was not considered to be "unchaste" if she remarried. A Tang Dynasty divorce agreement, unearthed from Dunhuang, reads: "Since we cannot live together harmoniously, we had better separate. I hope that after the divorce, niangzi (a form of address for one's wife) can be as young and beautiful as before, and may you find a more satisfactory husband. I hope that the divorce will not plant hatred between us in the future." This divorce agreement reflects not only the Tang women's equality within marriage but also the general open-mindedness of the Tang people.

Source: http://www.chinavoc.com/history/tang/women.htm

(Also the Yuan dynasty was very clear that women were considered equals)

And don't forget that Chinese history has a quite a few woman leaders.



So yes, I do acknowledge that we are somewhat of a male-dominated culture--and in reality, ALL cultures, and human society in general, is somewhat male-dominated--hence the term, male privilege.


Anyway, one thing is for sure, we don't make women change their last names when they get married!

[cattygurl]

You don't have to change your last name in the US, either.

In Japan, now both married partners can keep their respective last name. Before, either the husband had to take the wife's last name, or vice-versa.

[toml]

You don't have to change your last name in the US, either.

True, but it's the cultural norm.

In the US, if a woman keeps her last name then at very least someone (both men and women) will roll their eyes and think, "Oh, she's one of those type of women."

[kalbi]

True, but it's the cultural norm.

In the US, if a woman keeps her last name then at very least someone (both men and women) will roll their eyes and think, "Oh, she's one of those type of women."


Then you also have those "Keltner-Wongs" and "Chang-Hawkins" who believe in their Feminist ideals and supposed ethnic pride by keeping their Chinese names, while still flaunting the fact that they fellate white cock at the end of the day. :lol: :roll:

[howstrange]

Chinese culture, like pretty much all asian cultures

Not really. The Philippines has already had 2 female presidents. Also I think it was a matriarchal society pre-Spanish colonial. Nothing worst than hearing a CCB Pinay use the ìAsians are sexistî excuse.

[KeJia Sista]

Not quite sure how to interpret your post but, yes, I've seen some of her earlier shows -- not the ones in the first couple years but those a bit later.

I watched one of her earlier shows; and it was about a Black man who had slept with his daughters. The daughters were on the show and I think the father was on via phone from prison. I remember thinking of all the topics a Black woman on TV could jpresent to world, why this? It definately played into the stereotype of how White America views Black men; as you could see in the visible revulsion on the faces of the primarily White female audience. Whatever disgust people may have for Jerry Springer, I had for her. I didnt watch her for years after that; but I watched her viewership rise and eventually her standards rose with them.

It is wonderful for her to provide a show for "ALL" women. But how would you feel if an A/M had the opportunity to do a nationwide hit TV show and he did it for "ALL MEN" (meaning from a predominately White male point of view).

She's good, but has the potential to do so much more.

Ke Jia

[Catatonic]

Chinese culture, like pretty much all asian cultures

Not really. The Philippines has already had 2 female presidents. Also I think it was a matriarchal society pre-Spanish colonial. Nothing worst than hearing a CCB Pinay use the “Asians are sexist” excuse.


Actually, what I had said was "Chinese culture, like pretty much all asian cultures (and most cultures everywhere) have been TRADITIONALLY very male oriented with women having almost no rights."

And while the Philippines have had 2 recent female presidents (including current) - so have many other very traditional and conservative cultures such as Pakistan (Benazir Bhutto) and India (Indira Ganghi) - and all of these have basically the same elements - that the women came into power due to their husband's position (Aquino) or their father's (Arroyo) and their family power and connections. In fact, the election (which elected Arroyo as VP) was described in the media as a race between a babae [woman] and a babaero [womanizer].

There is no real evidence that early Filipino culture was matriarchal - while it is true that there were ancient babaylan (priestess) - similarly there were feamle godesses, druids, priestesses pretty much all over ancient societies around the world.

Since 1939, when women were given suffrage in the Philippines and the right to stand for elections only 9.8% of the 224 lower-house seats have been held by women.

[Catatonic]

Catatonic: you bring up good points and I don't dispute them, but it's always been my understanding that it's the uneducated (i.e. peasants) that treat their women as servants--whereas the intellectuals actually prided themselves on a sense of equality among the gender. Of course with every dynasty, there was a change in perception.

I don't know the exact details, but from my conversations with others, I remember hearing that there are several dynasties where women were considered complete equals.

For instance, regarding the Tang Dynasty

Source: http://www.chinavoc.com/history/tang/women.htm

(Also the Yuan dynasty was very clear that women were considered equals)

And don't forget that Chinese history has a quite a few woman leaders.

Anyway, one thing is for sure, we don't make women change their last names when they get married!

I'm not trying to say that western culture is in any way better than asian culture since they have gone through a very similar process and women rights is a very, very recent development (give or take 100 years).

But the vast bulk of people in China were peasant class. In Europe, during the 1600s and 1700s - aristocratic women also had considerable power and influence and the greatest periods of English prosperity have been under Queens.

It is quite true however - that there has been a flux in how women were perceived (take the case of the Japanese royal family over the debate in having a female successor to the throne - nevermind that Japan has had a no. of Empresses in its history) - but even in these periods - women generally were not treated as true equals.

Do you know when the practice of foot-binding became commonplace in China?

Plus regarding the whole name change thing - some of the families (that I know) which have raised the biggest fuss about the daughter-in-law not changing her last name have been asian (nevermind that their daughter-in-law has already built a professional rep.).

Plus, I'm not sure if the whole name change thing is not so much a positive thing as a negative - in that the woman marrying into the family is NOT truly a part of the family (in many asian countries - children are automatically registered under the father's family and even where they are given a choice, almost always, the father's family is chosen).

After all, daughters married into other families, and the position of the bride of the eldest son was the lowest in the household with her primary function to produce (male) heirs. Hence since the daughter left home to live with and to serve her in-laws, she was considered 'lost' and useless to her own family. On the otherhand, eventually the daughter-in-law will rise to the position of matriarch of the family and hold considerable power.

[howstrange]

And while the Philippines have had 2 recent female presidents (including current) - so have many other very traditional and conservative cultures such

I understand what you are trying to say with your reply. Whether you believe the PI was matriachal or not is up to what research you choose to believe. However that doesn't change the point that not ALL asian cultures have treated their women the same or are oppressive to their women. If you are Filipino(?), like I , then you should know that the submissive, quiet, and obedient steroetypes do not apply to the women. There is very little in common in this respect between the PI and China.

[Catatonic]

I could say the same thing about Corean women who are known to be fiery (a broad generalization) and yet I acknowledge that they live ina patriarchal society.

How do you explain the extreme low rate of women who have served in the PI Congress? And the Catholic Church, a dominant force in PI culture for much of its history, has hadly been friendly to the fairer sex.

[rainshowerz]

^^I tend to agree with Catatonic. While it's nice that there is a place in Filipino culture for Filipina matriarchs (who are deeply loved and respected), Filipino culture is still heavily male-dominated. I don't know if this is true for Korean women, but even if the husband is considered the head of the family, it is usually the wife who controls the finances and pretty much determines how the household is run. But all this control and power is usually for the sake of the male/husband, who the Filipina wife is supposed to take care of.

I also mentioned this in my previous posts, but as admirable as it is for the Philippines to have had two female presidents, the only reason they were elected was to cover up for the previous male presidents' mistakes. It gives me the impression that the only time a Filipina is elected for president is when she has to clean up after the previous male president--in good times, a male president will always be the #1 option.

My maternal grandmother is one of the strongest matriarchs I know, and no one in my family would dare do anything without consulting her first. She was one of the few women in the Philippines to raise three kids without a husband in the 1950s and 1960s (since divorce is still illegal there), and she did it successfully, but at the end of the day, she still had to hang my grandfather's pants on the clothes line to fool the neighbors into thinking that she and my grandfather were still together.

But I do think that there is an admiration for strong, independent, and fiery Pinays unlike in other Asian countries (like howstrange mentioned), but most traditional Filipino men still prefer the shy, quiet, obedient types, just like all the other AMs.

[howstrange]

Okay, I agree that it is currently patriarchal. I did say in my first post that it was a "matriarchal society" pre-colonial period before Catholicism, and I believe some of that still remains in the psyche, hence the election of 2 elected female presidents. Something that hasn't yet happened in the US. I'm not trying to argue that it isn't male dominated. What I am saying is that "relative" to other countries, it's not as bad.

I disagree that the only way the PI would elect a female into office would be through some odd misfortune.

the only reason they were elected was to cover up for the previous male presidents' mistakes
In other words, if a current male president sucks, then a female will have a chance at being elected as the next president? Hmm that's pretty damn good and progressive if you ask me.

there is an admiration for strong, independent, and fiery Pinays unlike in other Asian countries Yes, again let me clarify that all I'm trying to say is that women are not treated the exact same everywhere in Asia. Some countries have a more repressive history and culture than others.

but most traditional Filipino men still prefer the shy, quiet, obedient types, just like all the other AMs
Good luck to them finding one. lol There are very few in the hundred of female relatives I have, who would fit that description. I would think that stereotype would be one of the biggest sources of angst for a racially aware Pinay.

[toml]

Do you know when the practice of foot-binding became commonplace in China?

Wasn't it introduced in the Ch'ing (sp?) dynasty by the Manchus?



Plus regarding the whole name change thing

...

I'm not sure if the whole name change thing is not so much a positive thing as a negative - in that the woman marrying into the family is NOT truly a part of the family

Hmm... that's an interesting thought.

Does anyone here know the history behind why the woman retains her last name?

Also, if I remember correctly, don't Japanese kids have the last name of both parents?



I pretty much agree with what you're saying. I just wanted to make clear (for others who may be reading) that we aren't some sadistic, women-beating culture that kills female babies at birth.

The main issue is that our cultural history is so long that people tend to just ignore the bulk of it and focus on that last 100 years (because they think that cultures progress linearly, so the newest civilization is always better than the previous one).

[rainshowerz]

I disagree that the only way the PI would elect a female into office would be through some odd misfortune.
Philippine presidential history already proves it, IMO. It just seems really coincidental that the two female Philippine presidents succeeded after the former male presidents were practically ousted for their incompetence and/or tyranny.


the only reason they were elected was to cover up for the previous male presidents' mistakes
In other words, if a current male president sucks, then a female will have a chance at being elected as the next president? Hmm that's pretty damn good and progressive if you ask me.
Eh, I don't think of this as progressive. IMO, it represents that women will always be 2nd choice to men, and since there's only men and women to choose from, being 2nd choice is like being last.

But the mentality that a Filipina can fix a man's problem (when he can't do it himself)--which is a pretty common mentality among Filipinos and probably explains why there's so many strong and fiery Pinays out there--is pretty progressive IMO because in other countries, only another man can take the place of an incompetent man. But at the same time, there's still a strong sense of saving face with Filipino men that if they were viewed so incompetent that a woman has to fix their mess, they would never be able to live with it, which might explain why the former male presidents had to be ousted in order for the female presidents to take over. Not sure if I'm making sense, but that's the impression I get.

But like I said in my previous posts, even if the motive behind electing a female president isn't as ideal as I'd like it to be, the fact remains that the Philippines has had two female presidents, and the U.S. has yet to have one. A little girl growing up in the Philippines can realistically dream of being president one day, whereas a Filipina AA can't.


but most traditional Filipino men still prefer the shy, quiet, obedient types, just like all the other AMs
Good luck to them finding one. lol There are very few in the hundred of female relatives I have, who would fit that description. I would think that stereotype would be one of the biggest sources of angst for a racially aware Pinay.
Actually, Cory Aquino would be a good example of a soft-spoken, God-fearing woman whose piousness was even praised by the Catholic cardinals there :lol: I think Filipino culture is similar to Latino and Hispanic culture where strong and fiery women exist and are admired, but it's still the shy, virginal ones that are sought after, either by some traditional males or by Asia/Latinaphiles.

[Catatonic]

Okay, I agree that it is currently patriarchal. I did say in my first post that it was a "matriarchal society" pre-colonial period before Catholicism, and I believe some of that still remains in the psyche, hence the election of 2 elected female presidents. Something that hasn't yet happened in the US. I'm not trying to argue that it isn't male dominated. What I am saying is that "relative" to other countries, it's not as bad.

I disagree that the only way the PI would elect a female into office would be through some odd misfortune.



And as I had said -there is NO real evidence that early Filipino culture was matriarchal - having women babaylan (priestess) does NOT equal a matriarchal society since many other early cultures have had women in similar positions.

Regarding the 2 female presidents - Corazon Aquino rose to power due in large part to affection for her dead husband (and disgust for Marcos) and Arroyo was also help largely due to her father's name and family power base (not to mention the fact that she reached the Presidency when Estrada was impeached).

From Megawati Sukarnoputri to Benazir Bhutto to Indira Ganghi - all achieved power in large part to their husbands or fathers.

Plus you can't take a small sample as evidence - a better sampling would be the fact that only 9.8% of the 224 lower-house seats have been held by women since 1939 (which is very similar to that of the U.S.) and I would bet that the U.S. has a larger % of women in statewide positions (currently at 25%).

England has had numerous Queens and Thatcher but that's not evidence that England is still not a male-dominated society(only 18% women MPs).

[howstrange]

a better sampling would be the fact that only 9.8% of the 224 lower-house seats have been held by women since 1939
again I am not going to argue that the PI is not currently male dominated. I agree with you that it is.

As for matriarchal, its all about how one interprets the history or how one's political or ideological agendas affects their opinions, as can be seen by the following article (I have a feeling this is the one you site from) http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/eller.html.

I am not claiming to be any expert in PI history. Actually I'm pretty ignorant in that regard (call me whitewashed, I guess). However the History books I did read a long time ago stated it was matriarchal and it was once the custom where men had to walk several paces behind women. So atleast, at the time of those publications, the Philippines was regarded as having a matriachal history.


Regarding the 2 female presidents - Corazon Aquino rose to power due in large part to affection for her dead husband (and disgust for Marcos) and Arroyo was also help largely due to her father's name and family power base (not to mention the fact that she reached the Presidency when Estrada was impeached).

Its called privilege , connections, opportunity, and wealth - something most presidential candidates need to be elected. It's not exclusive to the said women presidents.

Eh, I don't think of this as progressive. IMO, it represents that women will always be 2nd choice to men, and since there's only men and women to choose from, being 2nd choice is like being last.

The incumbent is always the first choice no matter what the scenario. So what if the the incumbent is female? She will be first choice in that scenario. It's all about how you look at it. The way I look at it is that the only time any president is voted out of office is if they suck, and the idea that a woman candidate has a better chance of replacing a sucky president than a male candidate is pretty progressive.

ANYWAYS, all this really doesn't matter, because the current female president is a corrupt SOB and the country is going to shits, big time shits.
It really don't matter who's the pres of the Philippines, and sadly it's been that way for so long.

[DijabutiA]

(Also the Yuan dynasty was very clear that women were considered equals)
That was practiced by the Mongols, not the Han. The whole Mulan, Disney, story was inspired by a Mongol poem about a woman who joined the Khan's army to keep her old father from having to serve.
http://chineseculture.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.chinapage.com/mulan%2De.html

Do you know when the practice of foot-binding became commonplace in China?

Wasn't it introduced in the Ch'ing (sp?) dynasty by the Manchus?

That tradition was of the Han; The Manchus did not bind feet. I don't think Haka's bound feet either, but I'm not sure on that.

The bitter irony of this is that my history class is taught by a old white woman. :lol: She knows her stuff, but she is a couple generations away from people my age and doesnt always do the best job of relating it to the average student, complete with foreign stigma and general unhappiness for being forced to take "multicultural" gen ed. I like her though, I think shes one of the people that "gets it".

[inferno]

I chose "westernised" for lack of a better choice, but that certainly does not mean that I reject my Asianness. In my not-so-humble opinion all Asians who reside in a western country, frequently interact with non-Asians, and adopt customs that are not originally Asian are "westernised", whatever the hell that means, to a certain degree. For example, my favourite kind of music is rock and I speak "western" languages.

[toml]

(Also the Yuan dynasty was very clear that women were considered equals)
That was practiced by the Mongols, not the Han. The whole Mulan, Disney, story was inspired by a Mongol poem about a woman who joined the Khan's army to keep her old father from having to serve.
http://chineseculture.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.chinapage.com/mulan%2De.html

Right.

And this point should emphasize how diverse we Asians are---since a lot of non-Asians (and even some misguided AAs) sometimes think that ALL Asians are misogynistic, women-beaters.

And I would think that the beliefs of the Mongols during the Yuan dynasty would have influenced others in China.

That tradition was of the Han; The Manchus did not bind feet. I don't think Haka's bound feet either, but I'm not sure on that.


Ah... yes, I did more research into this and you are indeed correct. And it was officially banned during Sun Yat-Sen's revolution.

I have been misinformed about this because my Chinese "history" is basically learned from various soap operas/tv series! :lol:

And it seemed like only time the women complained about bound feet was during the Ch'ing dynasty!

It's interesting to note that a lot of the period tv-series/soap operas all have very strong female characters. And the main guy character is always a kind-hearted, but not very smart guy.


The bitter irony of this is that my history class is taught by a old white woman. :lol: She knows her stuff, but she is a couple generations away from people my age and doesnt always do the best job of relating it to the average student, complete with foreign stigma and general unhappiness for being forced to take "multicultural" gen ed. I like her though, I think shes one of the people that "gets it".

That's intriguing. Through my interactions with non-Asians who learn about Asian culture, it seems to me that the older folks genuinely appreciate and admire Asian culture for what it is (not always of course, but from the people that I have met). They don't try to compare or contrast and they definitely don't judge.

Whereas the younger people today, they seem to have this savior-complex---thinking they are the only ones wise enough to save the Asians from themselves!