Why do you risk alienating people you are trying to help?

[Dialectic]

In the thread "Consciousness in the Individual-Subjective Quadrant," I answered da Tao's first question ("appetizer") put forth to me in the thread "What do you think of our integrative stance?"

This is my answer to his second, or "Entree Q1."

4 course ENTREE:

Now I have a question of Choice. But first I have to set up the foundation... I will resort to crass but direct quoting / paraphrasing if you don't mind.

Crass but direct quoting is cool. Paraphrasing will require clarification/ explanation from me, and is useful for revealing how well communication is occurring between us.

GIVENS:
Your aim is to combat ignorance, bigotry and hate. (vision statement)

This is AN aim, but it is not our PRIMARY aim. Our primary aim is, put simply, to show off how damn smart and skilled and cool we are, and as one result, combat ignorance, bigotry, and hate. There will soon be a new thread under the Declarations clarifying WHY we called ourselves "Fighting 44s," a subject very much related to our aims.

You intend to integrate as many people at as many level of development as you possibly can. (vision statement)

True enough. We wish to do this, keeping in mind that we recognize healthy development and pathological development, and want to heal pathology when we can and cut it out when we must.

Second-tiers are able to recognize the truths and legitimacy of each level. (this thread)

True. Keep in mind here that this does not mean second-tiers possess the necessary "skillful means" to adequately communicate with and address the complexities and pathologies of each level. Also, it's very important to always keep in mind that "level" is a simplification, and that we are dealing with an extremely complex process comprised of quadrants, levels, lines, states, and types. All this "keeping in mind," incidentally, is only possible with the consistent operation of "vision-logic" (a Second-Tier phenomenon).

You want to draw people in at a blue level and help them grow. (this thread)

We did. As I've hinted at in various other threads, we no longer believe this to be viable. Blue needs its own website and forum. We think, at this point, that we can only really handle Orange and up. It's important to note, however, that we will continue to make Blue-style jokes and comments (though perhaps place less emphasis on them) because they serve as an excellent test/ filter for integral awareness as well. Our moderators, for example, have shown themselves to be intelligent, sensitive, and compassionate people, and ADDITIONALLY have demonstrated integrative/ integrative-potential thinking by being able to withstand and even enjoy the many Blue-level comments with which we pepper this site.


ASSUMPTIONS:
The offensive quips are mainly second-tier behaviour to shock people, to overcome the developmental inertia... but it is also to get shit out of your system.

Oop, already kinda acknowledge this above. Yes, it is meant to shock/ overcome developmental inertia, and yes, it is cathartic, but it also is a legitimate test for Second-Tier cognitive/ moral presences. Which really is the answer to your coming question ....

Your Centre of Gravity is at second-tier (now I inclined to make this point a given, but neither my nor your assessment necessary make this so. Since I am not aware of any test to positively identify second-tier individuals, I have to make this an assumption.)

Indeed you do. I am KING.

And now, after all these circumlocutions - the QUESTIONS:

Q1) Since you are able to recognize the truths and legitimacy of each level, why did you risk alienating the people you are trying to help?

As stated a couple times above, this type of content functions as a sort of "Integral filter." Quite frankly, any work of Art/ media content with any strong intrinsic worth risks alienating someone. We are not out to become a huge, bland, uninsightful forum like Yellowworld or even Model Minority. We want smartest, savviest, sexiest, wittiest, most insightful motherfuckers we can find. And often, it seems as though Green fits that bill, until you say one thing, seriously or humorously, which disagrees with Green pluralistic relativism/ egalitarianism, and you find out that hey, this person's a bit of a sensitive fuck-up. And Blue-style comments are perfect to test for that. Our Blue-style comments, however, are not actually purely "Blue": I'd like to think (and perhaps I'm incorrect) that we include JUST enough intelligence and insight that an Integral/ near-Integral individual would be able to recognize that and appreciate the subtlety/ subversion. An excellent example of this kind of approach is the Maddox site.

Clarification of Q1:
An example might be Tojo's early rants on CCBs. (or to use my grouping: AF who happens to prefer WM for one reason or the other) I would guess it was meant to resonate with the Blues. As for the Oranges and the Greens, SOME would join the forums and argue with the blues - and in so doing MAY help the development of both. (which was the aim of the articles I take it)

While Tojo wasn't really approaching from an Integral framework, I'd say this was meant to resonate with Blues, possibly Oranges, and Second Tier. Green HATES this shit and would only participate to try to destroy everything not-Green. This, fortunately or unfortunately, didn't actually happen on a mass scale.

BUT then there are OTHERS oranges and greens that would never read the declaration of intent and dismiss this site due to articles such as those. I would say this is because A) they cannot see the truth of the others, and/or B) they still have some "lower" tendencies and somehow these translate into "does-not-take-provocations-well".

True enough. We can't grab everyone. But with the upcoming MASSIVE changes to the site Lopan and I are planning, maybe we can grab more without compromising our edginess or Integral nature.

Now none of my questions are rhetorical, but I would like to try answering them anyways (just because I like listening to myself talk)... Either A) you have done a cost-benefit calculation of firing-up discussions vs. turning people off and you figured it was a good bet* OR B) the need to get it out of your system overrode the loss projection in said calculation.

My attacks against members in Fight Club (many of which are deemed overly-vicious by mods and even Core) are initiated for both reasons, and several others. To quote myself from the "Hating White People" thread in Fight Club:

As for my rhetoric, as I have stated again and again, here are my two choices:

1) Calmly and clearly and rationally lay out justifications, only to be completely ignored, and contribute to long-winded discussion on why hate is bad, and corruption of the forum is bad, again, only to be ignored.

2) Deliberately come out with provocative shit so that AT LEAST my words will be read and considered.

At any rate it's a filter: anyone who really understands what I'm saying stays (and has close-to integral potential, or at least proper perspective). Anyone who doesn't understand leaves, and I don't mind.

You want a real justification? A proper explanation would require that the person I'm talking to read ALL OF THE DECLARATIONS, LITTLE RED BOOK, and INTEGRAL SLANTED.

Who here's done that, hm? I know I have. Anyone else? Because these fuckers can't even claim to understand what we're doing on the board without having read every single one of the posts in those three forums.

Then, once that is done, we have a serious and real discussion. And the only dude here who's put in anywhere near the time to do that is Da Tao.

So a real justification? This is it.

We started this board to attract from a Blue base upwards. We have now concluded that that is most likely not viable for a stable and healthy board, and our revised aim is to maintain Orange and up. This is why a presence like 3line's is tolerable (he's pathological Green who alternates between Orange and Green worldspaces) whereas a presence like Fatfish (pathological Blue) or even Seoulbrother's encouragement of the free expression of hate (pathological Green who regresses to Blue) is not.

First Tier memes, however, are incapable of acknowledging other truths or understanding that they inhabit but one worldspace out of an infinite number. When they are confronted with integral reasoning, they are apt to dismiss it, no matter now reasonably or rationally it is presented.

Blue won't even listen. It'll dismiss it as bullshit and engage in ad hominem attack. Orange will try a reductionist tactic, basing all arguments on exterior criteria, or functional fit. Green sees integral as just another stance out of an infinite number of equally legitimate stances, will most likely treat it as modernistic or another form of pluralistic relativism, and dismiss it because it is merely one more conceptual tool to be considered equally with any other first tier conceptual tools.

So how to break through this? Well it's impossible in the short term.

Which is why, again, I have chosen to come down strongly on anything which contradicts forum guidelines.

Again, this has been discussed at great length in other posts. There are also other reasons for coming down hard, which can be gleaned from AQAL analysis: personal catharsis, entertainment value, the encouragement of emotional investment in the forum, the enhancement of an image of true caring and conviction on the part of the Core 44s, etc.

Is this better? Have you understood what I'm trying to say? Because I have been as clear as I possibly can be without losing meaning. But I suspect the majority of readers won't understand this, because they haven't put in the time to read and consider everything that they MUST read and consider to really understand how we manage this forum, site, and organization.

Also, the "Do you deserve to be here?" thread (previously named "Squandering Opportunity") in the Declarations is the emotional/ moral base from which my indignation arises.

Extension of Q1:
* Can you let us in on your (or other Vanguard's) analysis of how the bet is going?

We have almost five hundred members and high emotional investment in the forum and the brand identity, and we haven't spent a dime. The "bet," as you put it, is going well.

[da Tao]

All righty, I am going to blow by most of responses regarding my givens... and try to get to the point ASAP.

You intend to integrate as many people at as many level of development as you possibly can. (vision statement)

True enough. We wish to do this, keeping in mind that we recognize healthy development and pathological development, and want to heal pathology when we can and cut it out when we must.

There has been a lot of cutting out between then and now it would seem.

We did. As I've hinted at in various other threads, we no longer believe this to be viable. Blue needs its own website and forum. We think, at this point, that we can only really handle Orange and up.

Do you think this inviability is an inherent limit of the strategy or is it a limit of resources? To me, it would appear to me the limit is from how this site is structured - since even one non-pathological blue seems to cause enough "trouble" that eventually lead to departure. Well I can think of one or two members maybe (but I don't follow all postings closely) that are being kept in check, but at great efforts of guidances of others.

So I suppose it all has to do with your integral filter...

Our moderators, for example, have shown themselves to be intelligent, sensitive, and compassionate people, and ADDITIONALLY have demonstrated integrative/ integrative-potential thinking by being able to withstand and even enjoy the many Blue-level comments with which we pepper this site.

Yes the moderators are indeed a great boon. And I would like to say that I love the Blue-level comments here - it's a good break from the sterile life.

Quite frankly, any work of Art/ media content with any strong intrinsic worth risks alienating someone. We are not out to become a huge, bland, uninsightful forum like Yellowworld or even Model Minority. We want smartest, savviest, sexiest, wittiest, most insightful motherfuckers we can find.

True, the bland, all encompassing niche of Yellowworld and Model Minority is getting crowded and is getting squeezed out - actually I should NOT say that, since I have not seen the place for myself. Though judging by people who have migrated from there I say they have found something unique here.

Our Blue-style comments, however, are not actually purely "Blue": I'd like to think (and perhaps I'm incorrect) that we include JUST enough intelligence and insight that an Integral/ near-Integral individual would be able to recognize that and appreciate the subtlety/ subversion. An excellent example of this kind of approach is the Maddox site.

Now I have to check out the Maddox site on my free time to see what it is talking about...

On Blue-style comments... I'd have to say that much depend on building upon a basis of context. I myself would probably fail the filter if I were to be gauged on my response to earlier articles. But now your target audience is where the disconnect lies... one would need to know "you" enough first, or read up background info that is more neutral... I mean that insight should be coming from some sort of common ground. When people write angry things that sounds raving mad, my experience suggests they probably are - because too many people just like to lash out.

While Tojo wasn't really approaching from an Integral framework, I'd say this was meant to resonate with Blues, possibly Oranges, and Second Tier. Green HATES this shit and would only participate to try to destroy everything not-Green. This, fortunately or unfortunately, didn't actually happen on a mass scale.

Hmm... I couldn't say that it resonated with me now... more like irked. I don't exactly hate it... when I read it I wanted to post and say "hey, put your money where your mouth is and do a bloody test! set up two profiles that are virtually identical except the ethnicity and test the suspected CCBs. Categorize their responses. Without this your ideas have no support and without support it is worthless in winning me to your point of view. I may have an inkling of your point of view, but I won't validate it."

As for the Greens not attacking en-masse, that is probably unfortunate, since they are easier to integrate then Blues (can be reasoned with sans over-the-top unpleasantness) and should bolster your strength significantly.

BUT then there are OTHERS oranges and greens that would never read the declaration of intent and dismiss this site due to articles such as those. I would say this is because A) they cannot see the truth of the others, and/or B) they still have some "lower" tendencies and somehow these translate into "does-not-take-provocations-well".

True enough. We can't grab everyone. But with the upcoming MASSIVE changes to the site Lopan and I are planning, maybe we can grab more without compromising our edginess or Integral nature.

This segment should actually be in wetworks, but I think it would actually be better here with less scrutiny...

For a while now the forum became the central thrust of growth, with the site is being revamped in the background. I sense that you are planning a relaunch. And since the main thing about a relaunch is to make an old thing new... I think you are building up a critical mass of features to refocus this as an artistic expression site. Sort of an overwhelming flanking manuovere.

This would also account for why there are lots of clean up being done in the forum backgrounds... not as overt as the first 44 biblical flood where the forum was shut down to clean house. The 10 questions with the Fearless & Vanguards - gone. The thread where the debate over whether 3k should be banned - gone. (By the way, have you figured out who split the thread and started the poll? I am curious no one publicly said anything.)

There even seems to be an effort to reduce the "whiney-ness factor", in where a thread I started about sex-less dating service in China drew the comments along the lines I expected but were deleted. (I were expecting someone to cry conspiracy about writing one asian male with a small penis and rail against the "White" media... instead people saw it wasn't malicious and expressed hope that the comment would not be misconstrued.)

So it seems to me that you are quietly cleaning house for a big push, re-establishing the 44s as the PRIMERE artistic site and overwhelming every possible scene.

This could very well draw in the large number of oranges and greens (or fruits and vegetables if you prefer) using art... and hence achieve the critical mass needed to have a chain reaction to engage the minds on other ideas (they engage themselves essentially). The tricky part is that the moderators' guidance is a finite resource, too much traffic would drown out their influence - leading to a gaggle of poeple perpetuating their own dynamics, possibly creating another Yellowworld where inanity rules.

Your defence of course, would be the emotionally charged and well thought out arguments present in the various forums. Since it is unlikely everyone join at the same time or that everyone already has connections with everyone else, a sizable group of the newcomers would be exposed to the ideas here and give you the traction you need to prevent isolated enclaves from being a problem.

My attacks against members in Fight Club (many of which are deemed overly-vicious by mods and even Core) are initiated for both reasons, and several others. To quote myself from the "Hating White People" thread in Fight Club:

Hmm... I tend agree with strong arm tactics, if only for my amusement.

First Tier memes, however, are incapable of acknowledging other truths or understanding that they inhabit but one worldspace out of an infinite number. When they are confronted with integral reasoning, they are apt to dismiss it, no matter now reasonably or rationally it is presented...

...Which is why, again, I have chosen to come down strongly on anything which contradicts forum guidelines.

Yes I see your point, there are no other ways to be coherent and prevent one level dominating the others and breaking things here without coming down hard. I have to say that I agree.

Also, the "Do you deserve to be here?" thread (previously named "Squandering Opportunity") in the Declarations is the emotional/ moral base from which my indignation arises.

I have to admit the Squandering Opportunity thread had quite an impact - I felt like I have been sitting on my ass and not taking personal responsibility. But not quite enough to break patterns.

We have almost five hundred members and high emotional investment in the forum and the brand identity, and we haven't spent a dime. The "bet," as you put it, is going well.

Well, now you have more than five hundred members... but I remember there is a thread about how those people aren't posting and probably not even reading anymore. (now where is that thread?) So all in all, I remain a bit skeptical of the real size. Brand identity is building. And money paid is not big when compared to opportunity cost you and others paid I suspect.

The emotional investment is also evident, though thus far I have avoided a large part of it simple by not introducing myself / posting regularly / let my full personality manifest online. This could soon change.

I think the bet was more or less won when the site succeeded to galvanize poeple to take action. Such as the publicasian project. Still, there are future efforts for the Fighting 44s to spend political capital on and that would be another set of wager.

I think I am done the thread for now.