44 Social Mobility Discourse

[Dialectic]

I have no idea what prompted ZG to send this particular email, except to guess that we were probably talking about dating Asian chicks.

Chas is a White buddy of mine who spent a couple years in China. This is the guy I mentioned in another thread, under another a pseudonym I don't care to look up, who was there for two years and NEVER hit up an AF! He's like the White Asian male!

The reference to "BAM BAM" or BAM at the end of the email is a 44 Trademarked term (I even designed a SWEET logo for it) created by ZhaoGao which has multiple connotations:

Big Asian Male
Bad Asian Male
Bitter Asian Male

We attempted, for a while, to change "Bitter" to "Bold," but it never really stuck.

Yo boyz,

Chas, there would be no reason for me to send chinky chicks your way as they are walking right by me towards you, anyway.

I've given up on asian chicks because they bring too much baggage when they date another asian guy. I somehow remind them too much of their father or brother or other-male-figure-of-disdain. The ones who do date Asian prefer to plod along in a relationship with asian guys as opposed to jumping their bones, which they would for a white or black guy the minute they meet. The only good thing about asian chicks is their petite size: easier for me to physically abuse! I could probably toss them through dry-wall.

Let's face it, our goal in life is upward social mobility. Even when you consider yourself a hippie, you are trying to advance in something. So why the hell would I date a Chinese girl? That's like moving parallel. Or a black/mulatto girl? That's moving down! I ain't gonna settle for a mediterreanean/latin chick: that's like moving from the basement floor to the lobby. We have to strive for the penthouse: blonde, blue eyes, and a knockout body. Call me Hitler and send me the Nordic-Aryans! The truth is I find more white girls checking me out these days than the others. Maybe being on top of the food chain affords them this bravado. My degree (which I'm completely apathetic towards) actually impresses them, but a Chinese chick would find it a negative because it's expected. White girls (well, at least in this city) seem to have a 'thing' for Chinese guys as long as their appearance is not stereotypical (not masculine, geeky, etc.). I apparently seem to be 'unique' in their eyes, so I'm going to take full advantage. Who knew 1200 hours in the gym the last 3 years may actually pay off? Ironically, I have Chinese girls to thank as they pissed me off so much, it has been the greatest motivation to weight-train.

That's all for now,

BAM BAM

[Dialectic]

In case any of you are curious, this is the email Chas sent us which precipated ZG's genius response:

Well Boys,

Great e-mails from both Sothy and Dialectic. I guess it's a bit comforting to know that several others alongside myself are in the "I'm______(insert early 20s age here), what the hell do I do with my life" stage of things. I've been back in Montreal for about 5 days now, and that has just made things all the stranger. Everything is just so clean, so quiet, so orderly...dammit, and I thought this was supposed to be one of the bigger cities of a developed Western nation! However, the environment and crisp fresh air are a godsend, I feel bad smoking now because it's like I'm polluting, whereas in China I felt happy smoking because at least for a few minutes I was breathing through a filter.

Anyways, this year has blown by, and now I have nothing much to show for it besides two albums full of pictures, some shaky basic Mandarin,one hundred or so pirated DVDs, and of course a much better appreciation
of the female Asian form.

Living in a developing country is quite the experience,and often makes you thank whatever deity that you were born by some chance in Canada. The pollution, the crowds, the corruption, the traffic..whew, it's like I've gone deaf since I've come home, everything is silent here. However, I'm already starting to miss the raw street energy, the crazy characters, the shirtless Beer Barons, wild times at dirty discos, drunken bike racing against tracters and combines,etc. basically the sort of stuff that you can only find in a fast-developing, sorta post-communist, peasant dominated country. Sweet, sweet cheap beer, how I will miss you so!

As for the culture shock of women, it has been really strange being back. Everyone's breasts seem to be way too big, and most of the women seem to be way too done up in terms of makeup/general look. Has it always been like this??? Or did something happen while I was away? The Chinese girls were looking gorgeous, especially that last day I spent in Beijing (damn!!!! rising incomes + genes = HOT) However, like my buddy Ron said, whenever he wants to remind himself not to miss them at all when he goes back to the States, he gets involved with one. Physical form aside, they seem to be overwhelmingly juvenile, naive and pretty bad kissers. Perhaps it's the rural background, perhaps it's the conservative society, but it would seem that their relationship/sexual development is definitely several years behind their age. Not to mention from observation that it would seem that getting into a relationship with one of them could easily bring about a nightmare. The freakin' Ultimate Tease: beyond great eye candy, but that's it. I guess it's probably changing in places like Beijing and Shanghai, but those attitudes will take quite some time to cover the whole of the country. So...I guess that's where Japanese girls come in!! whuuuuut! (Sothy, I had a bried little stop over in your favourite land, up in Tokyo, and I must say it looked kind of cool...got to watch play-by-play Sumo Wrestling!)

Ok, well, that's all for now. Dialectic and ZhaoGao, if you are intend on giving up on "Western Chinese" girls, that's cool..just send them this way. (actually, on second thought, maybe not...mix juvenile with money and rampant consumerism..NOT a good mix) Btw Dialectic, that comic book page was awesome, I'm pretty damn impressed. So slick...Feel free to write back and tirade my observations and assumptions. Latez boys,

Chas

[bluejives]

I have no idea what prompted ZG to send this particular email, except to guess that we were probably talking about dating Asian chicks.

Chas is a White buddy of mine who spent a couple years in China. This is the guy I mentioned in another thread, under another a pseudonym I don't care to look up, who was there for two years and NEVER hit up an AF! He's like the White Asian male!

The reference to "BAM BAM" or BAM at the end of the email is a 44 Trademarked term (I even designed a SWEET logo for it) created by ZhaoGao which has multiple connotations:

Big Asian Male
Bad Asian Male
Bitter Asian Male

We attempted, for a while, to change "Bitter" to "Bold," but it never really stuck.

Yo boyz,

Chas, there would be no reason for me to send chinky chicks your way as they are walking right by me towards you, anyway.

I've given up on asian chicks because they bring too much baggage when they date another asian guy. I somehow remind them too much of their father or brother or other-male-figure-of-disdain. The ones who do date Asian prefer to plod along in a relationship with asian guys as opposed to jumping their bones, which they would for a white or black guy the minute they meet. The only good thing about asian chicks is their petite size: easier for me to physically abuse! I could probably toss them through dry-wall.

Let's face it, our goal in life is upward social mobility. Even when you consider yourself a hippie, you are trying to advance in something. So why the hell would I date a Chinese girl? That's like moving parallel. Or a black/mulatto girl? That's moving down! I ain't gonna settle for a mediterreanean/latin chick: that's like moving from the basement floor to the lobby. We have to strive for the penthouse: blonde, blue eyes, and a knockout body. Call me Hitler and send me the Nordic-Aryans! The truth is I find more white girls checking me out these days than the others. Maybe being on top of the food chain affords them this bravado. My degree (which I'm completely apathetic towards) actually impresses them, but a Chinese chick would find it a negative because it's expected. White girls (well, at least in this city) seem to have a 'thing' for Chinese guys as long as their appearance is not stereotypical (not masculine, geeky, etc.). I apparently seem to be 'unique' in their eyes, so I'm going to take full advantage. Who knew 1200 hours in the gym the last 3 years may actually pay off? Ironically, I have Chinese girls to thank as they pissed me off so much, it has been the greatest motivation to weight-train.

That's all for now,

BAM BAM

With all due respect, Dialectic, your friend is a complete and utter moron. His views on women are immature and wholly unenlightened. I'm so happy :roll: that ZG thinks its great that white chicks are checking him out now, like only after he's spent the last 3 years going to the gym. But that's good only for him. Meanwhile, him saying shit like that sets all the rest of back. What makes ZG think he's so priviledged that he can entertain such elitist notions? I've learned over years of soul-crushing loneliness and alienation we AMs in this society cannot afford to think like that, not to mention that its just plain despicable, and that it is better to be humble and openminded even when we've worked to move ourselves into a more advantageous place. But maybe thats just me. Anyway, thanks for nothing!

[Dialectic]

You're an idiot who doesn't understand the first thing about sarcasm and irony and just clownin' around.

ZG's one of the most open-minded, open-hearted people on the damn planet. A whole bunch of his friends from college are Chinese-Christians, and the crew they have, one of the dudes is gay. And this dude, he is AFRAID of telling anyone in this crew because he knows there is a good chance that these MOTHERFUCKING Chinese-Christians who are always polite and say nice things may look at him differently and become distant and think there is something sinful or wrong with him if he reveals himself. He is afraid that because of this GODDAMN ARCHAIC CHRISTIAN BRAINWASHING that they will not longer really be his friends.

But ZG he told years ago, because he knew ZG would understand and be supportive.

So fuck you Bluejives.

[JadeDragon]

Damn, I wish I knew Zhao Gao back then when I first came out. My best friend in high school was so horrified by the fact that I was bisexual that she completely cut off all ties with me, never mind the fact that I would have NEVER approached one of my straight female friends in the first place. I still miss her though, but what's done is done.

[Dialectic]

I am proud to have all of the good friends I have (among whom I count ZG, Lopan, and Sheki as some of the best) because they are some of the most gracious, open-minded, and kind people around (despite the bullshit we spew almost all the time).

As long as you're not an asshole, we're good with you. Hell, even if you are an asshole, chances are we'll be your friend for a while and be screwed for it later.

And I'm not sure if I'm even supposed to say this, but I will: ZG sat on this secret for I think three or four years and just quietly supported him while he went about doing his thing. ZG, the man who, more than anyone I have ever met or seen on TV or in books, relentlessly and wittily mocks Asians and Gays and Blacks and Whites and any other group, he's the one who was there for this guy. Not the polite Christians, not the family, not the social system, but this asshole.

Be humble when it's time to be humble. Be cocky when it's time to be cocky. Be funny when it's time to be funny. Be violent when it's time to be violent. Be offensive when it's time to be offensive.

It's time some of you learned what insight and compassion really fucking are.

[bluejives]

You're an idiot who doesn't understand the first thing about sarcasm and irony and just clownin' around.

ZG's one of the most open-minded, open-hearted people on the damn planet. A whole bunch of his friends from college are Chinese-Christians, and the crew they have, one of the dudes is gay. And this dude, he is AFRAID of telling anyone in this crew because he knows there is a good chance that these MOTHERFUCKING Chinese-Christians who are always polite and say nice things may look at him differently and become distant and think there is something sinful or wrong with him if he reveals himself. He is afraid that because of this GODDAMN ARCHAIC CHRISTIAN BRAINWASHING that they will not longer really be his friends.

But ZG he told years ago, because he knew ZG would understand and be supportive.

So fuck you Bluejives.

I dont understand sarcasm, irony, and clowning around? Excuse me, but in the absense of certain kinds of facial expressions, tone of voice, hand gestures, knowledge of your friend's personality or character, and being privy to all kinds of obscure inside joking that clearly goes on between you and your friends, exactly what was supposed to clue me in on the sarcasm, irony, and humor behind these flat-text statements:

Chas, there would be no reason for me to send chinky chicks your way as they are walking right by me towards you, anyway.

or this

I've given up on asian chicks because they bring too much baggage when they date another asian guy. I somehow remind them too much of their father or brother or other-male-figure-of-disdain. The ones who do date Asian prefer to plod along in a relationship with asian guys as opposed to jumping their bones, which they would for a white or black guy the minute they meet. The only good thing about asian chicks is their petite size: easier for me to physically abuse! I could probably toss them through dry-wall.

or that self-delusional, self-absorbed, self-congratulatory, minority women bashing upward social mobility statement?

Was BAM BAM supposed to clue me into all that? Give me a fucking break.

You're right. I don't know your friend at all. Maybe, I shouldn't have called him a moron. But I DO sort of know YOU. I think you made an error in judgment here. If this statement by ZG was supposed to be taken as tongue-in-cheek, that shit wasn't exactly crystal clear. You're walking on rhetorical thin ice here with all these half-baked attempts at sarcasm, irony, and humor. Even the great Enlightenment age satirizing motherfucker Voltaire himself once said: "How close can you get to what you're satirizing before the line between target and vilifier all but disappears?" Who exactly is ZG/you vilifying here? Because that shit ain't exactly crystal clear. If I, Bluejives, who's spent plenty of time on this forum, is fully cognizant of the motherfucking Mother of all Issues of all Azn forums, and is serving a life sentence as an Azn man in a White man's world like the rest, didn't quite catch the 'drift', I can assure you that there would be many others who wont. How would it seem, for example, for a black female out there somewhere, who was looking to participate in the F44s for the first time, to come across that upward social mobility statement by ZG, who happens to be a close friend of one of the Core and Founding members, to suddenly learn the notion that for an Azn guy to be dating a black/mulatto girl is like, and I quote, MOVING DOWN (under THE 44 FOUNDERS section, no less)! Or a Mediterranean/Latin girl to learn to that for an Azn guy to be dating her is only like, and I quote, MOVING FROM THE BASEMENT TO THE LOBBY. Or what about a white chick who's only Brunette instead of Blonde and Blue Eyed, what is she like the 10th floor in a high rise? Not to mention what a Chinese girl might think reading that whole shit in its entirety! What is she, like the boiler in the basement, according to this fucked up vision? Is this supposed to be conducive to the Integral Stance and the Infinte Variety and Infinite Combination? Hey, but it's your forum and you're the boss, you can do whatever the hell you want.

All that shit above is ONLY your MISTAKE NUMBER ONE.

MISTAKE NUMBER TWO:

Where the fuck did all this shit about Christians and Gays and Christians being intolerant of Gays come from??? I was making a pointed comment about your friend's superficial views about minority women, not about religious or sexual orientation! What are you trying to do here? Change the subject? Try to paint me as some stereotypical intolerant gay-bashing Christian? You know that like 95% of the people here have misgivings about Christianity and one or two outspoken ones have alternative sexual orientations, so you trying to rally them against me by putting an irrelevant spin on the discussion? Is that part of the Integral Stance also, by indiscriminately bashing Christians and putting a religious and sexual orientation wedge between people? That shit aint honest and it aint cool.

[Dialectic]

We're not villifying anyone. Except maybe Chinese-Christians. As for rallying people against you, you're not at the level of Kalbi or Fatfish yet. Besides, you disrespected first: you said "Thanks for nothing!" which is retarded, and you used the rolly-eye, and anyone who uses the rolly-eye deserves nothing less than being chomped up by the devil for eternity in Milton's innermost Hell.

If someone comes to 44s and reads this post first, either they'll get it and understand we're clowning, or they're won't 'cause they're too stupid and their presence won't be missed.

This also implies that they skip AboutUs and the Declarations, so again, not our problem.

You think this is more damaging, or some of the garbage some of your favorite people say in Big Bad World, NC-17, or Fight Club? This shit has wit. Most of the shit in those forums is garbage.

You seem to be under the impression that you understand what we're doing, when you don't. Let's put it real simple: this forum starts leaning too far toward bigotry and anger, we bring it back toward P.C. sensitivity; this forum starts getting too P.C. and sensitive, we bring it back to edgy witty offensiveness; this forum starts getting too ideological or advocate-minded, we bring it back to Art; this forum starts getting to Artsy, well, that will never happen so we're not worried.

We're also here to entertain, 'cause that's why most people come. Most of our members are posting when they're bored from work or taking a break studying from school. We're here to engage emotionally and not let anyone get too comfortable. This forum also has a very prominent marketing function, and it does a beautiful job of getting the word out about this. Anything with wit that gets attention helps. Read "To the P.C. Bitches" under NC-17 for more on how clowning leads to Art and advocacy. Also read Our "Integral" Vision, Theory, and Practice under the Declarations which DIRECTLY addresses how we can say offensive shit and still be good people.

Bluejives, you've gone downhill. You started okay, had a couple cool posts at the beginning paraphrasing God's Word and shit, but it's time to re-inject yourself with flava 'cause it's just not there anymore. Next thing you know you'll be telling us you're a Bush supporter. Or have you already?

[Dialectic]

You know what? Let's bring this down to the shit that matters.

Bluejives, two questions for you:

1) Do you believe homosexuality is wrong, or a sickness, or against God?

2) Do you believe I'm going to Hell? I have had every opportunity to convert, I went to church as a little kid, and I REJECT ANY NOTION of a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim, 'cause let's face it they're all the same) creator God. Am I going to Hell?

[bluejives]

You know what? Let's bring this down to the shit that matters.

Bluejives, two questions for you:

1) Do you believe homosexuality is wrong, or a sickness, or against God?

2) Do you believe I'm going to Hell? I have had every opportunity to convert, I went to church as a little kid, and I REJECT ANY NOTION of a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim, 'cause let's face it they're all the same) creator God. Am I going to Hell?

Honestly man, I dont know where this is coming from. This started out as discussion about your friend Zhaogao's email retort to your other friend Chas. I had no idea it was gonna turn into a discussion about religion and homosexuality! But since you asked, let me ask you something: do you want me to tell you what you want to hear? Or do you want me to tell you the truth, which is: I dont fucking know. I aint no damn minister or a student of theology.

I like you Dialectic. That's another truth. I have no hidden beef or agenda against you. Maybe I've gone downhill, whatever that means, but lets get this straight, I think I made it clear that I aint no ass-kisser either. If I read something that goes against my grain, then I will say something about it, even if it came from one of the Core, such as yourself.

Now getting back to this religious discussion thing, do you seriously want to discuss that? If so then start a fresh thread on it and I'll see what I can do, although frankly I dont know if I want to spend the time and energy talking about something like that, which I think is utterly irrelevant to the scheme of things around here. But is that really the crux of the matter here? Is something that I've espoused in the past bothering you? Is my Christianity bothering you? Is it bothering other people? Is it jeopardizing the marketing potential of this site? You think I'm a closet Bush/Christian Right supporter? Are you gay? What's really going on here?

Getting back to the ORIGINAL discussion at hand, I think if I were Zhaogao, then I would have responded to Chas in an entirely different way. If you're interested then I'd be happy to post that instead.

[Dialectic]

You don't know whether homosexuality is against God, and you don't know whether I'm going to Hell?

Shit, that's an answer already.

I don't need fucking ass-kissing. What I need is for people to develop some goddamn perspective. People bashing Team America when they haven't seen it because of a goddamn minor L-R joke? People spending over ten pages to debate a Caucasian-only billboard? You reading a clearly humorous piece on maximizing social mobility (as if we would ever actually advocate marrying "up" to go further in life)? What the fuck? If you can't mock yourself, if you can't laugh at what is serious or important to you, if you are automatically offended by things that contradict your ideology, if you can't understand that BOTH ignorant and enlightened mocking exist, then you already run the risk of turning into some kind of fanatic.

I'm not anti-Christian, I'm not anti-religion, I'm not anti-conservative or anti-liberal or any shit like that. I'm anti-stupid. And it just so happens that there are a lot of stupid Christian and other religious people, who are giving a lot of people out there a hard time: case in point, Christians and Muslims.

And hey, I WISH I were gay. I'd be getting a lot more action than I do now, and I'd have a real personal reason to dislike Christians. Also, your Christianity doesn't affect the marketing of this site. As a matter of fact, we wish it did, 'cause if we marketed like Christians and violently forced our way into every population we came across either militarily, economically, agriculturally, or educationally, we'd be all over the damn globe by now.

But no, this is not a debate about religion or homosexuality: this is a debate about the nature and manifestation of compassion and open-mindedness. And I'm sick of seeing people who think they're some kind of good or pure or chosen motherfuckers walk around shitting on everything else. Which is, incidentally, what the vast majority of Christians do, in one form or another.

And not only do you completely miss the point of the post, but then you mount a serious-toned attack?

With all due respect, Dialectic, your friend is a complete and utter moron. His views on women are immature and wholly unenlightened. I'm so happy that ZG thinks its great that white chicks are checking him out now, like only after he's spent the last 3 years going to the gym. But that's good only for him. Meanwhile, him saying shit like that sets all the rest of back. What makes ZG think he's so priviledged that he can entertain such elitist notions? I've learned over years of soul-crushing loneliness and alienation we AMs in this society cannot afford to think like that, not to mention that its just plain despicable, and that it is better to be humble and openminded even when we've worked to move ourselves into a more advantageous place. But maybe thats just me. Anyway, thanks for nothing!

There is no "all due respect" there. That's like saying, "not to insult you, but you're a fucking small-minded brainwashed piece of shit." Hmm. You think those are his real views on women? Jesus. It's pretty damn clear in the tone of the piece, not to mention the general level of intelligence and observation that the Core 44s are capable of, that the writer is aware of the issues and is fucking around with them for fun. And you call his thoughts, which you think he's seriously thinking, despicable? And you end with "thanks for nothing"? Jesus fuck, and you expect your ignorance to be respected and discussed seriously? I've already given this too much consideration.

But hey, I'll give you credit for one thing: you were smart enough not to say that homosexuality and rejection of God automatically damns you. I don't know whether that comes from inside your heart or a knowledge of my stance and the dynamics of this forum, but at least you were smart enough to not say that. As a next step, try to reason through the beliefs that you've been taught to internalize without question, and decide for yourself whether my friends and I are damned.

[blue-kun]

This is why I hate about sarcasm on the 'net.

D: All things aside, I must uphold one of the things bluejives said... You indeed walked on a rhetorical thin ice, especially because ZhaoGao stopped participating these days. IINM he stopped posting even before I joined the 44s -- all I know about him is that he is a founding member, good at science and math. Means that what you portray about him entirely shapes him in other people's mind (like me).

Of course, we have our mission statement, and it suggests that ZG was being sarcastic in this case. But you know what? The quote of ZG's letter also came from no one but you, an (arguably most active) founding member of this site. If you'd ask me, that's like sending a 50-50 mixed signal right there.

Honestly, before you clarified that it was a sarcasm in the first place, I took this thread as an account of how pathetic ZG's mentality used to be before he eventually got `enlightened' and even became a founding member of the 44s (which tells a lot).

Am I too dense? Maybe, as I am for most of the times.

*sigh* Again, I hate sarcasm on the 'net. :lol:

My $.02,
Eugene

[Dialectic]

Difference between you and Bj here, B-k, is that you didn't start a harsh and serious attack after misinterpreting the post.

[blue-kun]

Difference between you and Bj here, B-k, is that you didn't start a harsh and serious attack after misinterpreting the post.
Yes, I know that difference. All I'm asking you -- as the leader whose voice carry a heavy weight -- is just a bit of extra prudence for unfortunate folks like me. Had bluejives not started the whole thing, ZG's sarcasm -- and my misinterpretation of it -- would've probably gone unnoticed.

I remember you (or was it Tojo?) posting an announcement a while ago that you would refrain from relying too much on sarcasm... Guess how glad I felt when I saw that. Yep. :P

Eugene

[Dialectic]

Yeah we both said that. I'm pretty sure I said "for a while" as well.

The functional problem with holding off on sarcasm and edgier stuff and always being semi-serious or polite or obviously funny, is that we run into situation (2) of "The Two Ways This Forum Can Fall" (Little Red Book): a lot of people get really polite and try to be calmly reasonable, and this eventually leads to oversensitivity and P.C. behavior, which is JUST AS OPPRESSIVE as bigoted behavior, but in a different way.

I honestly didn't think ZG's emails were difficult to interpret at all. I'll keep this in mind when I post more stuff in future (which I will).

[generaltojo]

Zhaogao is a great guy... if you can get past that expression he has when it looks like he wants to kill you.

[blue-kun]

I honestly didn't think ZG's emails were difficult to interpret at all. I'll keep this in mind when I post more stuff in future (which I will).
:D

I think it was just that what seemed obvious to you (because you knew ZG all too well as a friend) wasn't as obvious to other people like me.

Anyhow, thanks for the consideration! :D

Eugene

[Dialectic]

Well you better answer Zurrichgrrl's post on your comment under the hot Asian men thread, 'cause you just got put into the same situation ....

[blue-kun]

Well you better answer Zurrichgrrl's post on your comment under the hot Asian men thread, 'cause you just got put into the same situation ....
Already did (gotta love topic reply notifications) -- but thanks! :D

Eugene

[Ti4N]

D,
Just wanna dd that I just totally didn't get the sarcasm there neither, I thought it sounded more like some confession or drunken rambling and I honestly believed you were gonna smack the shit outta him for sayin that stuff...

[Dialectic]

I know, it's hard to get unless you can picture a dude saying that shit with a certain tone or demeanour.

A lot of people aren't used to having smart and insightful people deliberately saying shit that doesn't seem all that smart or insightful while they're clowning around and just being funny. This is part of the reason why Eminem, for example, got ripped apart so badly by anyone with a modicum of "taste" when he first came out 'cause people just didn't get it, and it wasn't entirely their fault that they didn't.

So look at it like this: ZG knows the offensive implications of what he's saying, and at the same time, he knows that what he's saying is not actually untrue, though it could be phrased better. But he's saying it anyway 'cause sometimes offensive shit is funny as hell, especially if delivered properly.