F44 Webring and The Tigers Roar.com

[Dialectic]

This is an idea that's been brewing in my mind for quite some time, and I wanted to get your thoughts on it.

As our forum developed, it was becoming very apparent that we could not successfully integrate all the disparate worldviews and mindsets here in one place. Some people just weren't getting along, and the forum threatened to destabilize/ go pathological, and I wanted a way to somehow keep everyone on and have everyone say their piece without feeling like they were being constantly attacked or oppressed.

I had this crazy idea where we'd create kind of a Harry Potter/ Hogwarts dynamic. We would start four "Houses" of allegiance here in the forum, each coordinated/ loosely lead by a Core 44.

1) Tojo would take the hardcore activists and members driven by anger and passion for "The Cause."
2) ZhaoGao would take the crazy motherfuckers who wanted to mouth off and say offensive shit and generally be witty and shocking and funny.
3) Sheki would take intellectually-minded folks who discussed economics and history and socio-political dynamics.
4) I would take the more sensitive, artistic, and integrally-minded folks (as well as all the girls, 'cause I'm like that).

We all thought it was a fucking brilliant idea, but it wasn't viable. It would've taken a MASSIVE amount of dedication and participation from all five Core 44s, something which most of us weren't prepared to give. Lopan would've had to create separate forums and common rooms for each House, as well as a place of mutual exchange, not to mention logos and graphical support. It would've been insane for all of us.

But the BEST part was, even if we made enemies and bickered and contended, at the end of the damn day, we all still would've been "Hogwart's students." We all would've been 44s.

But we didn't have the resources to do this, so as a result, we have had to be a bit more mercenary in the criteria we have for participating here, and who we want posting.

This doesn't mean, however, that we want to "abandon" or reject anyone else. This is why we're so keen on having Ric (or whoever else volunteers) start a "Kamikaze Chamber" website, and why I think "The Tiger's Roar" has such potential.

As I understand it, Tigerkhan has not fully differentiated his forum/ site from the rest of what's out there. He wants to discuss pertinent Asian issues and at the same time depict Asians in a positive and attractive light via photos and glamorous shots.

But what if all three of us worked loosely together? What if Ric started a site that was unmoderated and encouraged crazy emotion and venting, what if Tigerkhan focused on Asian advocacy and media representation, and what if we continued to focus on Artistic and Integral endeavours? Wouldn't we all be more effective if we were standing together?

What I'm proposing is this: a loosely-coordinated and supportive relationship via a "44 webring." It doesn't even have to be called "44" if you don't want it: we can call it something like "The Fighting Ring" which is pretty cool-sounding and not narcissistic.

This way, we will all be brought together in mutual support, and each of us will develop a differentiated and necessary function.

The possibility of this excites me like hell, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it!

[evil_FUX]

Hell yeah that'd be sweet. Although I liked the original ideas the Vanguard came up witih. That seriously would've been BADASS. In any case, however, still a very awesome idea. It actually could run loosely synonymous with that idea announced during the major infancy of this site about having sister sites backing each other up and rallying each other up for whatever reason. Lastly, I want to be in Gryffindor.

[Dialectic]

That would've been my House. Although really, from the way I described it, I would've been Hufflepuff. And I'd've probably been killed like Cedric Diggory down the line. Goddammit.

[evil_FUX]

Hahaha sad. Man if you were Hufflepuff I would be so out of here. I'm not sure if you'd ever played any of the games but whenever they measure who's leading in the contest for the House Cup, Hufflepuff always comes in dead last. Hahah my brother and I always rag on Hufflepuff for that.

[Scowl]

I think that this is something that quite a few of us have been thinking about. I'm all for it - having some sort of webring has the potential to reach a lot more people. More importantly, it can cater to a wider range of needs, because this place just can't be everything for everyone.

I get the feeling that some people come here and leave feeling alienated and disenchanted, with few other alternatives to look towards.

I dunno about approaching existing sites with this idea; while I like the idea of a unified front, I really think that it has to start here.

[Dialectic]

I have more than "the feeling" that some people leave here feeling disenfranchised and alienated: it definitely happens!

That's why I thought the House idea would be so cool and effective, but this is beyond our current means. Just to elaborate on the aesthetics of the idea 'cause it's so cool, we'd've done something like this (we'd've put more thought into the names of course).

The Four Great Pillars or The Four Noble Houses

1) 44 Kamikazes (Tojo): Angry, passionate, raging. They're on the road to self-destruction, going down in flames, but taking out assholes with them.

2) 44 Snipers (Sheki): Precise, methodical, rational. The thinkers. When they move, they win.

3) 44 Bosozoku (ZhaoGao): Chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable. They just don't give a fuck. They say what they want, do what they feel, and they piss the crap out of everyone around them.

4) 44 Assassins (Dialectic): Stealthy, effective, deeply intuitive. You don't see them coming. By the time they make their mark, the job's already been done.

We'd've had crests for each House: a downward angled plane, a long-range rifle, a figure on a tilted motorbike, a sai.

Damn I really wanna do this! Let's get those other websites goin' folks!

[tigerkahn]

Dialectic, I'm all up for it. I'm already in the process of drafting my letters to the schools.

But you know, things get done much quicker with requirements documents. Oh god, CS coming back into my brain again.

What I mean by requirement documents is that its a document that lines what the sister site is going to do, how we're going to do it, when, and any other high level stuff. THen we can post TODO jobs so people can pick up whatever they're intersted in contributing. We can set deadlines, schedules, and what not. Cuz after all, its somewhat of a project right?! lol

I'll draft one up within this week and i'll posted it as an example.

Ricky.




I have more than "the feeling" that some people leave here feeling disenfranchised and alienated: it definitely happens!

That's why I thought the House idea would be so cool and effective, but this is beyond our current means. Just to elaborate on the aesthetics of the idea 'cause it's so cool, we'd've done something like this (we'd've put more thought into the names of course).

The Four Great Pillars or The Four Noble Houses

1) 44 Kamikazes (Tojo): Angry, passionate, raging. They're on the road to self-destruction, going down in flames, but taking out assholes with them.

2) 44 Snipers (Sheki): Precise, methodical, rational. The thinkers. When they move, they win.

3) 44 Bosozoku (ZhaoGao): Chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable. They just don't give a fuck. They say what they want, do what they feel, and they piss the crap out of everyone around them.

4) 44 Assassins (Dialectic): Stealthy, effective, deeply intuitive. You don't see them coming. By the time they make their mark, the job's already been done.

We'd've had crests for each House: a downward angled plane, a long-range rifle, a figure on a tilted motorbike, a sai.

Damn I really wanna do this! Let's get those other websites goin' folks!

[evil_FUX]

Dialectic, I'm all up for it. I'm already in the process of drafting my letters to the schools.

But you know, things get done much quicker with requirements documents. Oh god, CS coming back into my brain again.

What I mean by requirement documents is that its a document that lines what the sister site is going to do, how we're going to do it, when, and any other high level stuff. THen we can post TODO jobs so people can pick up whatever they're intersted in contributing. We can set deadlines, schedules, and what not. Cuz after all, its somewhat of a project right?! lol

I'll draft one up within this week and i'll posted it as an example.

Ricky.


Hahah requirements documents. Damn, that shit can be time consuming though you know? Maybe you should do it via extremem programming. Gets rid of the heavy documentation but still gets the job done. One of the better alternate approaches I think.

[Dialectic]

Tiger, I know what you mean by requirements documents/ briefs, all that kinda thing.

I'm up for it in principle, but none of us on this end has the time to put into something like this. Lopan and I manage several projects (profit and non-profit) simultanously, I have a job, and he's taking a year of intense design training, and formal documents and timelines just can't be done.

We can and would love to give loose timelines and of course tons of ideas which can be fleshed out (as we have been doing) and act in a consulting-type manner to anyone who would like to work loosely with us (we're pretty good at marketing/ strategic management), but formal documents and project-like status? I don't want to commit to more than I can realistically handle.

As I see it now, we'd have three sites in this "Fighting Ring": Tiger's Roar, which focuses on advocacy and media portrayal (fitting in nicely with your desire to depict cool Gap-like photos), Kamikaze Chamber (or whatever), which focuses on passion, sexuality, and uninhibited drives, and Fighting 44s, which focuses on Art and Integral leadership and strategy. How does that sound for something real rough for now?

[tigerkahn]

Evil_FUX, Dialectic:

Yeah I know what you guys mean by the documents being time consuming. But I'm not talking about some 20 - 50 page 'industry' document. I'm talking about like, a simple 3 page document where it outlines what we're gunna do. :

So the 1st page might talk about purpose, description...etc
2nd page says how many jobs there is to do.
3rd page is all about scheduling.

And with that, then I can get off to work by hooking people up with jobs, and seeing where we stand in the schedule. know wut I mean? But its just a simple suggestion that I think can make people not forget about it and drive us to complete things as the weeks go by.

Tiger, I know what you mean by requirements documents/ briefs, all that kinda thing.

I'm up for it in principle, but none of us on this end has the time to put into something like this. Lopan and I manage several projects (profit and non-profit) simultanously, I have a job, and he's taking a year of intense design training, and formal documents and timelines just can't be done.

We can and would love to give loose timelines and of course tons of ideas which can be fleshed out (as we have been doing) and act in a consulting-type manner to anyone who would like to work loosely with us (we're pretty good at marketing/ strategic management), but formal documents and project-like status? I don't want to commit to more than I can realistically handle.

As I see it now, we'd have three sites in this "Fighting Ring": Tiger's Roar, which focuses on advocacy and media portrayal (fitting in nicely with your desire to depict cool Gap-like photos), Kamikaze Chamber (or whatever), which focuses on passion, sexuality, and uninhibited drives, and Fighting 44s, which focuses on Art and Integral leadership and strategy. How does that sound for something real rough for now?

[Dialectic]

That's why I thought the House idea would be so cool and effective, but this is beyond our current means. Just to elaborate on the aesthetics of the idea 'cause it's so cool, we'd've done something like this (we'd've put more thought into the names of course).

The Four Great Pillars or The Four Noble Houses

1) 44 Kamikazes (Tojo): Angry, passionate, raging. They're on the road to self-destruction, going down in flames, but taking out assholes with them.

2) 44 Snipers (Sheki): Precise, methodical, rational. The thinkers. When they move, they win.

3) 44 Bosozoku (ZhaoGao): Chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable. They just don't give a fuck. They say what they want, do what they feel, and they piss the crap out of everyone around them.

4) 44 Assassins (Dialectic): Stealthy, effective, deeply intuitive. You don't see them coming. By the time they make their mark, the job's already been done.

We'd've had crests for each House: a downward angled plane, a long-range rifle, a figure on a tilted motorbike, a sai.

Damn I really wanna do this! Let's get those other websites goin' folks!

We're actually thinking of executing this now, albeit in a simpler manner. Each House will get their own forum space where they can discuss what they please, moderated by their own forum leader: while everyone on the forum will be able to read those threads (unless y'all think it'd be better if only House members can read House threads), only House folks can post.

So given the above tentative classifications (we might change the names), who do you think would make good members and leaders of each House? (a couple might be lead by Core 44, depending) Keep in mind that they have to be regular and consistent posters to be members or leaders.

Also, do we need all four Houses? Could they be condensed to two or three? What might be discussed in these House common rooms?

Examples of who I think would be appropriate to each House:

Assassin: Cattygurl
Sniper: 3line
Kamikaze: Kalbi (and a bunch of people who are, unfortunately, gone)
Bosozoku: Three_Kingdoms (though he could be Kamikaze)

[evil_FUX]

Examples of who I think would be appropriate to each House:

Assassin: Cattygurl
Sniper: 3line
Kamikaze: Kalbi (and a bunch of people who are, unfortunately, gone)
Bosozoku: Three_Kingdoms (though he could be Kamikaze)

What, you're not going to let the Sorting Hat do that?

[B the student]

I'm thinking we only need three houses considering we don't have enough people to properly fill out the kamikaze and bosozoku (at least not anymore). Also, is it possible to switch memberships to different houses? I'm thinking after awhile kamikazes will eventually progess from their wrathful hate and may want to discuss things in the assassins thread, and vice versa. And will House leaders have free mobility to comment in different houses? One more thing, how will new members be initiated if they cannot choose what house they wish to belong to? Just thoughts I'm throwing out, it most certainly sounds like a good idea D.

My nominations:
Assassins:Xian and Makulita
Sniper:Da Tao (and Assasin too. boy goes hardcore on analysis).
Kamikaze/Bosozoku:DustDevil (if he's still around) and BlueJives

[Scowl]

While I agree with the overall view, the problem I see with a literal adaptation of this idea is that it will appear to be some sort of linear hierarchy, in which case each "House title" will carry with it direct connotations of prestige and esteem.

Which has the potential to make it into an entirely different game, which I don't think we really want to get into.

I really think that the webring thing is a much better idea, because any kind of hierarchy that is implied will be very limited. It means a certain loss of control, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[da Tao]

I'm thinking we only need three houses considering we don't have enough people to properly fill out the kamikaze and bosozoku (at least not anymore). Also, is it possible to switch memberships to different houses? I'm thinking after awhile kamikazes will eventually progess from their wrathful hate and may want to discuss things in the assassins thread, and vice versa. And will House leaders have free mobility to comment in different houses? One more thing, how will new members be initiated if they cannot choose what house they wish to belong to? Just thoughts I'm throwing out, it most certainly sounds like a good idea D.

My nominations:
Assassins:Xian and Makulita
Sniper:Da Tao (and Assasin too. boy goes hardcore on analysis).
Kamikaze/Bosozoku:DustDevil (if he's still around) and BlueJives

First I must say that I am honoured by the nomination (regardless if it is for just regular housemember or houseleader), but I believe I fail the regular and consistent poster stipulation (a necessary one I might add) set by Dialectic.

My primary thought on the house idea here is what is meant by "coordinated/loosely lead". The fine point is probably at the house leader's discretion, but I expect the Core44s to give some guidelines as per the Hydras. (Not sure why the name is chosen, but nevermind.)

I don't quite see the core44s doing ALL the leading, mainly because some of them will be somewhat torn between what they actually believe and what some of their house member will advocate. A quick, vague, somewhat generalizing example: If one of the Kamikaze/Bosozoku say something "utterly dumb" and Tojo "knows better", would he yank the chain? How would someone foster their allegiance to a house where they were being harped on again and again? Basically this is the headache the Dialectic and others had since the inception of the forum.

So that point was simply on the core leading the houses.

B the student got some good questions, and I think the answer is that it will sort itself out rather quickly. ASSUMING everyone has reading privileges, anyone who has a problem will just take it to the fight club anyways. (Unless you discourage people from "interfering" with "house-affairs".) On the other hand, if you choose to keep the rooms secret then that is a different ball game... This situation I can't simulate in my head.

Since the main forum is already divided into clear sectors, I can't see (could be lack of imagination on my part) many novel threads coming out other than discussing members in the sibling-houses or ideologies of the other sibling-houses.

No one knows until this is implemented, but having similar people in a "confined" area is like biology's idea of reproductive isolation - and this tends to purify or entrench a certain trait. Development might be actually arrested because certain behaviours are "institutionalized" by the houses.

Anyways, would people prefer signing up or being recruited? Both have merits and drawbacks. Of course people should be able to leave a house when they want, but what is the criteria and procedure for eviction? These are the initial conditions that determine the outcome of this venture.

The most interesting way of course, is to let people band together, have an initially sealed house, and let the members decide how each house is to be run. This will definitely create unique sub-cultures - which should have the benefits the Core44s thought of when they brainstormed, but it could also intimidate newcomers. (I have read something to the effect of "hey you better watchout because the guy you are deriding is more popular and has been here longer than you! - so a house system would make this worse - building on what Scowl has said.)

Having said all this, however - I agree with Scowl that the webring idea is easier, probably draws in more people in the short term, but it is further away from being done. The house idea can be done now, would build upon the current members and could contribute to development of all, but might deter newcomers along other unintended side-effects.

Which is better? I do not know before hand. Are they mutually exclusive? Depends on how much resource people are willing to put in to coordinate the intended integration.

[cattygurl]

Examples of who I think would be appropriate to each House:

Assassin: Cattygurl
Sniper: 3line
Kamikaze: Kalbi (and a bunch of people who are, unfortunately, gone)
Bosozoku: Three_Kingdoms (though he could be Kamikaze)

:shock: :shock: :shock:

shocked and speechless by the nomination.

[B the student]

don't be. You have posted a lot of very worthwhile material on this site. You've share you're thoughts and experiences with us, enrichening the forum with your own story. You post well thought out responses to a lot of bullshit, which i take as a sign on how dedicated you are to helping your fellow 44s see things in a different light. you definitely deserve it. (same goes with a lot of other members on here).

and da Tao, i understand the reasoning behind the participatory requirement, but i have too much respect for you that i would feel amiss to not give you my nod. You may not post often, but when you do i know it's going to be something worthwhile (and may take a few sittings). :) Clearly you have dedicated quite some time in both thought and action to what you post, and i'd be willing to argue that one of your super posts is at least worth 100 normal posts. but don't worry about post count, keep doing what you're doing because you definitely bring a full course meal, dessert, left overs and then some to the 44 table.

[blue-kun]

cattygurl: I actually view it as much of an honor to be nominated as an Assassin, as it is to be a Sniper.

From Dialectic's description a while ago, an Assassin mainly relies on deeply intuitive insights, which IMO reflects an ability to spot a trend or trait of thinking in the right direction among seemingly discrete social events and phenomena. Something along the line of `the power of sound induction.' On the other hand, a Sniper mainly relies on the logical and rational reasoning to tackle a problem. `The power of sound deduction.'

I guess each of these has own merits. Actually, sometimes I envy those intuitive insights, because they would greatly help me maintain a balanced point of view -- which I tend to lose from time to time whenever I get too deeply immersed into my own logic on random local issues. (I have this horrible tendency to go off-topic too easily -- look at that dictionary debate on a thread about AF preferring whites, how embarassing... :P)

Eugene

P.S. An interesting thing: Some people say women are better at intuitive insights than men. Maybe we will end up with more female Assassins here... XD

P.P.S. I just remembered you already had a Sniper title too. Damn! *bows down*

[Dialectic]

The House names would not really be related to the current titles. Right now Assassin is someone who wrote a Feature and Sniper is someone open-minded and has posted enough to get a feel of their persona.

Scowl actually brings up a very good point with regard to the prestige of the titles. That point alone gives me pause, actually: and as a funny but relevant aside, we see this even in Harry Potter: Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are clearly less prestigious and more second-stringy than Slytherin and Gryffindor.

In addition to this, I haven't really thought through how Houses would be of great benefit, other than being able to identify very quickly a poster's general traits (and thus communicate with him/ her better, if effort is applied). This merits further consideration.

[evil_FUX]

Well what are the methods of attack that you want to cover? I know the main thought right now on your mind is via artistic expression whether through writing, art, music, etc. So if you group them into different factions how is the simultaneous attack going to work? Maybe the kamikazes are our protestors and demonstration organizers, assassins are like they are now and tackle issues via artistic endeavors, snipers take issues and topics and logically dismantle them and offer counter arguments, and bosozoku are our extremists(?) or promoters on the personal level, subliminal? Anyways, you get the picture.

[Dialectic]

Well, Bosozoku is a term for people who just wanna fuck around and be funny, really.

I'm not so much concerned with the functions of each, as I am with, well, just how things are gonna work. Put very concretely, my worry is this: we make four (or three or two) additional forums, or categories, or whatever. Is anything gonna be happening in these forums? Or are they gonna be kinda empty and barely-active, like in this category as well as The Analects? What's the catalyst for having a whole bunch of just Assassins or Kamikazes or whatever together? Will they even be interested in having extended discussions among themselves?

[evil_FUX]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying about how there might not be any activity. With separate forums I can see the different groups using them to discuss whatever project or issue is at hand might come in handy. But are you saying for other topics, like general conversation you want them to discuss among their group? Now I bring that up because, I believe you said you also wanted a forum for all teh groups to talk amongst themselves. If that's the case, to me it seems that that larger forum would fill the role for that.

Unless, you mean specialized topics pertaining to that group, such as, assassins discussing art theory and philosophy. If in that case, I believe that is dependent on the people within that group and how much they are into or want to get into those ideas. I think having some forums rarely being talked in is just a natural occurrence.

[Dialectic]

Well aside from the prestige/ hierarchy problem, which is significant, my intention for the Houses was something like this: you wanna prop something, or bitch about something, or discuss something among specifically like-minded people, you can do so without interference. So Kalbi, for example, wants to talk about what women want and help guys get girls in his own unique way, he can do it without getting jumped all over or cut down; Xian wants to discuss advocacy and engaged compassion (as Thich Nhat Han might put it) without needing to be constantly on guard for the inevitable squirrelling of the topic to sexuality and and selloutism, he can.

But I'm not sure how much these opportunities would be used.

[evil_FUX]

Ok, nevermind I got confused there.

[tigerkahn]

TheTigersRoar.com

Introduction ñ
The Tigers Roar is a website aimed at Asian American Men. It deals with self empowerment, identity, and education. Specifically, it will contain articles that talks about civil rights, media influence and representation, government, and such. This is to create awareness and to pass along educational messages that contribute to our cause.
It will also contain a section where professional pictures are shown of Asian American men. There will be numerous themes to the pictures. The pictures may have Asian American Men posing by themselves, with friends, with a girlfriend, family, etc. It may depict them in the office, out in the field, or maybe in a car. The choices are endless. But what is common is that these pictures should be professionally done, if not close. This is a simple start to create more visual and media representation, at least on the internet.

Articles ñ
There are two kinds of articles Iím looking for. The first one is a photo journalistic kind where the articles are coupled by pictures. A good example would be a National Geographic article. These articles use story, fascination, and images to drive the point home. They create a need and longing in the reader.
The second kind of article is very much like an educational paper that enlightens minds and makes people aware of the numerous issues weíre dealing with in this society. It educates, influences, and really makes people think about it days after.
Gallery ñ

As stated above, the galleries will have various themed pictures of Asian American men. The gallery will be contained in a portal of its own that accessed through this site.



TODO:


Web Site Designers ñ need someone to revamp the site.

Organizers ñ someone to contact newsgroup, local listings, schools, and any other social institutions to get people to submit articles and to volunteer for our cause.

Writers ñ
1) Topic - The article will be written according to a topic presented. E.g. ìHow does the Media influence?î This kind of writing educates.
2) Free Style ñ Write whatever you feel that needs to be addressed. This kind of writing creates stir.
3) Storyline ñ Journalistic articles. E.g. ìHeart of AsiaîÖ.then youíll write something where a woman travels to Asia, talks about the majestic and beauty of the land, the uniqueness of the culture, and falls in love with a hot Asian guyÖblah blahÖwhatever. This kind of writing glamorizes.

Photographers ñ
1) Photo journalistic photographers ñ the photographs you take will be paired up with the Storyline articles.
2) Glamour photographers ñ GAP like photography. Some great examples would be the picture advertisements you see from Banana Republic, GAP, Ralph Lauren, GQ, Menís FitnessÖetc.

[tigerkahn]

if anyone is interested in taking up any of the things listed above, please pvt msg me and we'll work something out.

[Taliesin Stormheller]

I'm interested in doing whatever you can assign me. BTW check out my AA music site :) http://www.xanga.com/talisasianmusic *shameless plug*