Presidential Debate

[Dialectic]

Well, I just watched enough of the debate to know that Kerry and the Democrats actually care about the world, and Bush is going to win.

[Xenzu]

The news is no better here in the Southern Hemisphere either:

GWB's bum-boy, John Howard, has a sizeable lead in the most recent pre-election polls (our federal election is being held on Oct 9) and my hunch is that this "lying, lowlife rodent" (a phrase coined by one of his OWN senators in reference to one of the ploys he used to swing the previous fed election his way) is going to pull through.

If 'Honest John' (sarcasm alert) wins, it could spell the end of social medicine and subsidised tertiary education in Oz.

Fuck it, I'm voting for the Greens.

[The Ram]

man...come on..

its obvious that john kerry came out on top in that debate..

This was a man prepared: he had his facts, dates, numbers, statistics..
and he seemed calm, cool and collected throughout the debate. Kerry
also was able to explain each criticism made by Bush. ...Bush on the other
hand...

Bush looked bothered, confused, and paused for long stretches completely
out of touch with what he had to say. Also he never really countered the
information Kerry provided instead opting for a simple strategy of merely
repeating the same shit over and over again...His strategy is not to win
intellectually but to scare people with his constant repetition of how
inconsistent kerry is.

In truth Kerry isn't as inconsistent as Bush describes, at least he could
explain and counter Bush's attacks with an intelligent articulate reply.

Are some of you really going to vote for Bush?
Bush who opted out of the Kyoto treaty?

Come on, even if you think Bush is going to win, vote for Kerry
if you feel he is better qualified..

And really think and examine these issues...its not as difficult as it
may seem...so you say its choosing between the lesser of two evils?

well...choose one then. or otherwise don't fucking complain about shit.

[Dialectic]

It's not a case of who was smarter or more articulate or had a more solid stance. It was a case of appealling to the largely ethnocentric or mythic-rational masses. It was a case of displaying alpha dominance and a good marketing campaign.

Kerry's not actually a "flip-flopper" at all when you stop to examine what he's been accused of doing. Bush and Edwards have committed a million bad acts much worse than just dropping out of Kyoto.

But Bush is still going to win.

[3line]

It's not a case of who was smarter or more articulate or had a more solid stance. It was a case of appealling to the largely ethnocentric or mythic-rational masses. It was a case of displaying alpha dominance and a good marketing campaign.

Kerry's not actually a "flip-flopper" at all when you stop to examine what he's been accused of doing. Bush and Edwards have committed a million bad acts much worse than just dropping out of Kyoto.

But Bush is still going to win.

Dialectic, we all remember how Bush won the debates last time. He failed so miserably that Gore started to look like a bully.

I anticipate a repeat performance.

[the Infamous Grouse]

yeah, it's pretty obvious that Kerry won the debate. I also hold out the hope that he'll win the election, diverging a little bit from Dialectic's pessimism. Most of the Republicans I talk to are not going to vote for Bush. They just feel that they haven't benefitted at all from his tenure in office. I've heard this so many times "Yeah, Clinton may have been a Democrat and a liar, but my stocks were way up." Just like in 1992, it's the economy stupid. The only people that really don't think so wouldn't have voted for Kerry anyway. These are the broke ass hicks from Pigknuckle, OK. These are the only people that are being reached by this rhetoric and language of fear that is coming from the political Right. They're the only ones who think that the War on Terrorism can be "won." Just like we won the War on Drugs. The people that are switching their votes are affluent Republicans, that just aren't as filthy rich as Bush's friends are. Those are the only hardcore Bush supporters anymore. The upper management execs at Pfizer and Halliburton. Besides them and the aforementioned broke ass hicks, the rest are swing voters. Gee, politics really does meake strange bed-fellows, doesn't it?

[The Ram]

Dialectic:

Out of curiousity, if you believe Bush will win the election,
are you still voting? If so, who would you be voting for?

As of today, I'm with Kerry, I have faith in the American
people that they will recognize that Kerry is the better
candidate.

[cattygurl]

The US polls show that People felt that Kerry had won the debate.

HOWEVER,

People still thought Bush was a strong leader and more likeable.

WTF? Strong Leader? A bumbling, sneering idiot is a STRONG LEADER!!! I live in an area with a STRONG military presence, so I see so many B/C 04 stickers I hate leaving my house. I never thought being a village idiot was a "good" thing. The anti-intelligence promotion of this country just makes me want to keel over and die.

I really hop Kerry wins, but I have no faith in the intelligence of people in this country. It's too bad that people prove me right most of the time every time I leave the house.
[/quote]

[Dialectic]

Grouse, I don't think this is pessimism speaking. I have a few good reasons for believing this, though if by some fluke the Democrats do win, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

1) Republicans play dirty as fuck. Look up Karl Rove and find out about all the shit he's done. Some of their more ingenious/ creative tactics: scaring Blacks away from voting, rigging electronic voting machines with two-digit pin codes, distributing false information to disrupt Democratic events.

2) America's cognitive/ moral center-of-gravity is mythic-rational, or ethnocentric, or "Blue." The majority of Americans are not nearly rational creatures, much less post-modern beings appreciative of diversity and pluralism. Bush stands for God, apple pie, the Dallas Cowboys, and a strong, independent America answerable to no one. The Republicans have played this beautifully. For example, Bush made a point of emphasizing that America would not sign up to be answerable to an international tribunal. America would not give up soverignty in any way, and thus would not take up a worldcentric stance, which many other countries all over the globe are willing to do. This, to Republicans and many Americans, is a GOOD and POSITIVE point. We are dealing with a clash of completely different worldviews here: Blue-Orange (mythic-rational) and Orange-Green (rational-postmodern). The wonderfully marketed War on Terror has whipped the country into a fervor and Blue-Orange is stronger than it has been for quite a while.

3) Bush is more charismatic than Kerry. WE look at him, we see an idiot, a monkey, and a rich spoiled fuck who never earned a thing in his life. We can also separate content from aesthetic presentation. He had no content. Kerry won. But it doesn't matter. Bush relates to the common, simple man, because he is the common, simple man. Bush has also been coached extremely, extremely well. His face remains relaxed, he smiles, he barely stumbles, and he pauses in his speeches with confidence like he has all the time in the world. Also, he was deliberately and subtly aggressive: did anyone notice how Bush would begin his retorts BEFORE the moderator announced how much time he had? He would jump right in with confidence and passion. He also hammered the same (erroneous) point home over and over again: that Kerry was a flip-flopper. He squirrelled every answer he could into that conclusion.

And this is what you need to do to effectively communicate with the American masses. Take one simple point (true or not) and repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. Any stance or vision more complex than one repeated point will not, at present, penetrate the American psyche.

The Republicans are going to win.

[cattygurl]

I hope Karl Rove rots in hell while being barbecued alive for the evil minions of hell.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Pimp Kim Chee]

D, FEEL FREE TO MOVE DIS SHIT IF IT DONT FIT WIT YO THREAD. I DIDNT WANT TO MAKE DIS SHIT A FEARLESS ENTRY CAUSE I DONT THINK ITS WORTH IT, BUT IT DEFINITELY APPLIES TO DA BUSH/KERRY SHIT (MORE WIT DAY SKULL AND BONES, SECRET SOCIETY WHATEVER).

http://www.electiondeception.com

ANYONE PEEP DIS SHIT? IF YOU HAVENT, JUST CHECK IT OUT RIGHT QUICK. DA INTERFACE IS FUCKED UP INTENTIONALLY (LIKE KINDA ARTSY BUT JUST ENDS UP BEIN ANNOYIN AS FUCK), SO IF YOU CANT FIND DA LINK TO DA NEXT PAGE, JUST LOOK FOR A RED 11 OR RED TEXT IN GENERAL. IF ALL ELSE FAILS, JUST TYPE IN DA NEXT PAGE NUMBER IN DA URL, LIKE http://www.electiondeception.com/01/, http://www.electiondeception.com/02/, http://www.electiondeception.com/03/, http://www.electiondeception.com/04/, ETC.

HOLLA WIT YO OPINIONS.

[3line]

2) America's cognitive/ moral center-of-gravity is mythic-rational, or ethnocentric, or "Blue." The majority of Americans are not nearly rational creatures, much less post-modern beings appreciative of diversity and pluralism. Bush stands for God, apple pie, the Dallas Cowboys, and a strong, independent America answerable to no one.

Sounds Marcusian.

[Dialectic]

I'm using a model of cognitive/ moral development created by Don Beck and Clare Graves called "Spiral Dynamics." This model also corresponds to the work of Jurgen Habermas (a critical theorist) who has studied the development of morality and cognition in diverse cultural groups all over the world, and Ken Wilber uses the model in his later works as a convenient way to discuss both individual and cultural growth/ decay. Read the Integral and Spiral Dynamics posts under the Declarations of Intent and Omega Attractors for more.

Apparently Kerry's slightly ahead in the polls now! I didn't see that coming. Barring an "October surprise," perhaps he does have a chance after all.

[Dialectic]

This was linked to from Angry Asian Man a while go, but it's worthy of presenting again. Republicans are DIRTY MOTHERFUCKERS.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040922%2F1137058380.htm&sc=rontz&photoid=20040921WHT311D

Millions Blocked from Voting in U.S. Election

By Alan Elsner

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Millions of U.S. citizens, including a disproportionate number of black voters, will be blocked from voting in the Nov. 2 presidential election because of legal barriers, faulty procedures or dirty tricks, according to civil rights and legal experts.

The largest category of those legally disenfranchised consists of almost 5 million former felons who have served prison sentences and been deprived of the right to vote under laws that have roots in the post-Civil War 19th century and were aimed at preventing black Americans from voting.

But millions of other votes in the 2000 presidential election were lost due to clerical and administrative errors while civil rights organizations have cataloged numerous tactics aimed at suppressing black voter turnout. Polls consistently find that black Americans overwhelmingly vote for Democrats.

"There are individuals and officials who are actively trying to stop people from voting who they think will vote against their party and that nearly always means stopping black people from voting Democratic," said Mary Frances Berry, head of the U.S. Commission on Human Rights.

Vicky Beasley, a field officer for People for the American Way, listed some of the ways voters have been "discouraged" from voting.

"In elections in Baltimore in 2002 and in Georgia last year, black voters were sent fliers saying anyone who hadn't paid utility bills or had outstanding parking tickets or were behind on their rent would be arrested at polling stations. It happens in every election cycle," she said.

In a mayoral election in Philadelphia last year, people pretending to be plainclothes police officers stood outside some polling stations asking people to identify themselves. There have also been reports of mysterious people videotaping people waiting in line to vote in black neighborhoods.

Minority voters may be deterred from voting simply by election officials demanding to see drivers' licenses before handing them a ballot, according to Spencer Overton, who teaches law at George Washington University. The federal government does not require people to produce a photo identification unless they are first-time voters who registered by mail.

"African Americans are four to five times less likely than whites to have a photo ID," Overton said at a recent briefing on minority disenfranchisement.

Courtenay Strickland of the Americans Civil Liberties Union testified to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights last week that at a primary election in Florida last month, many people were wrongly turned away when they could not produce identification.

BLACKS' BALLOTS REJECTED

The commission, in a report earlier this year, said that in Florida, where President Bush won a bitterly disputed election in 2000 by 537 votes, black voters had been 10 times more likely than non-black voters to have their ballots rejected and were often prevented from voting because their names were erroneously purged from registration lists.

Additionally, Florida is one of 14 states that prohibit ex-felons from voting. Seven percent of the electorate but 16 percent of black voters in that state are disenfranchised.

In other swing states, 4.6 percent of voters in Iowa, but 25 percent of blacks, were disenfranchised in 2000 as ex-felons. In Nevada, it was 4.8 percent of all voters but 17 percent of blacks; in New Mexico, 6.2 percent of all voters but 25 percent of blacks.

In total, 13 percent of all black men are disenfranchised due to a felony conviction, according to the Commission on Civil Rights.

"This has a huge effect on elections but also on black communities which see their political clout diluted. No one has yet explained to me how letting ex-felons who have served their sentences into polling booths hurts anyone," said Jessie Allen of the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University.

Penda Hair, co-director of the Advancement Project, which seeks to ensure fair multiracial elections, recently reported that registrars across the country often claimed not to have received voter registration forms or rejected them for technical reasons that could have been corrected easily before voting day if the applicant had known there was a problem.

Beasley said that many voters who had registered recently in swing states were likely to find their names would not be on the rolls when they showed up on Election Day.

"There is very widespread delay in the swing states because there have been massive registration drives among minorities and those applications are not being processed quickly enough," she said.

[blockthebox]

This is an email that was forwarded to me, supposedly circulated by Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the DNC. I think the online poll thing is not a bad idea:

An "online coup d'etat." That's how CBS News described your efforts
after the debate last Thursday.

John Kerry did his part with a powerful performance that showed
America they can expect strong and principled leadership when he is
our commander-in-chief. But it was your efforts that kept the
Republicans from spinning their way to victory.

Now we need your help again. Tonight, John Edwards and Dick Cheney
will meet for the only vice presidential debate of the campaign. Once
again, we need you to take action the moment they leave the stage.

There are four critical things you can do to help beat the Republican
spin machine.

1. Forward this email to family, coworkers, and friends.
2. Vote in online polls.
3. Write a letter to the editor.
4. Call radio and television stations.

Your 10 minutes of activism following the debate can make the
difference. It is important that we double our efforts from the last
debate, because the Republicans are now copying our strategy.

*** Vote in Online Polls ***

National and local news organizations will be conducting online polls
during and after the debate asking for readers' opinions. Look for
online polls at these news websites, and make sure to vote in every
one of them:

* CNN: http://www.cnn.com/
* MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
* Wall Street Journal: http://www.wsj.com/
* LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/
* Akron Beacon-Journal: http://www.ohio.com/
* Minneapolis-St. Paul Star-Tribune: http://www.startribune.com/
* Orlando Sentinel: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/
* Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.philly.com/
* South Florida Sun-Sentinel: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/

And be sure to check the websites of your local newspapers and TV
stations for online polls. It is crucial that you do this in the
minutes immediately following the debate.

Make sure swing voters know why you support John Kerry by sharing your
thoughts on message boards in target states. Visit our 2004 Debate
Center after the debate for a list of message boards where you can
fight the Republican spin. If you visit chatrooms on AOL, MSN, Yahoo,
or other websites, be sure to let people know what you thought of the
debate.

http://www.democrats.org/debates/

*** Write a Letter to the Editor ***

Immediately after the debate, go online and write a letter to the
editor of your local paper. If you feel John Edwards presented an
optimistic vision for the next four years, put it in your letter. If
you feel Dick Cheney failed to explain the last four years of failed
policies, put it in your letter.

Writing a letter is easier than you think. It takes just a few minutes
and just a few clicks using our online media center:

http://www.democrats.org/action/200410050001.html?psc=demnews

*** Call Radio and TV Stations ****

TV and radio coverage immediately following the debate is where much
of the spin is cemented. Make sure you call radio and TV stations to
tell them what you thought.

Find shows in your area on our media website:

http://www.democrats.org/media/find.html

*** Also... ***

Don't forget to visit our 2004 Debate Center before, during, and after
the debate for important information and more ways to take action.

http://www.democrats.org/debates/

Thank you,

Terry McAuliffe
Chairman

PS: Make sure to forward this email to at least 10 other people who
will be watching the debate. Also, print out copies for your friends,
family members, coworkers and neighbors and get them involved.