What if my sister was a CCB?

[Dialectic]

There's nothing 44s detests more than a Cracker-Chasing Bitch.

Well actually, there is: senior executives, the KKK, and George Bush.

But the CCB ranks pretty high up there, and their treatment is what Lopan and I were talking about yesterday.

This shit is something I feel pretty strongly about. The rest of the Core and a few of our friends are the same way: we fucking HATE the self-hatred and internalized racism that these people exhibit. They make us see red. They make our blood fucking boil, they make us tense, and they are very good at making us see just how fucked up this world is.

To some of you, I come across as cocky, belligerent, and tyrannical. There's nothing I can do about that. But I can tell you that I feel this shit as deeply as anyone, and being hated and pre-judged by people of your own damn race, well that ... that's just fucking shit.

Me and Lopan, we were talking about what makes that. I guess over a month ago now, Yellow_Peril (who no longer participates 'cause this shit touches him too deeply and it's difficult coping with some of the emotions 44s brings up) mentioned that his sisters were all CCBs. They absolutely refused dating any Asian men.

And Fatfish, being the sensitive man that he is, said fuck that, it's time to cut them off because they're not worthy of your consideration or love.

Well that shit is clearly fucked-up and insane. They're his sisters for chrissake.

So how do you resolve this?

Tojo advocates the "separation of the politics and the personal." This, to me, is an incomplete solution. Politics IS personal. If you happen to know a really cool CCB who's your friend or your sister, you can't just say "I hate CCBs but that's just politics and this person is my friend." Not only will you get called out publicly with that shit and have no defence, BUT there will always be a constant tension inside you as well.

I want to discuss a more inclusive approach. Lopan and I were in the car talking about this shit. So you're an Asian chick, and you grow up somewhere in North America. Doesn't even really matter here. And you have a fairly typical Asian family and relational structure. Your dad is emotionally absent and doesn't communicate shit with the family. He gives money, makes sure you're okay in school and work, and other than that, you barely know the motherfucker at all. You never shoot the shit about hobbies, interests, clothes, sports, girls/boys, whatever. You have maybe an older brother, or a couple of brothers. They're pretty fucking typical as well. They do well in school/work, they're either fat/ skinny and have no physical regimen or particularly healthy diet, they like video games and hanging out with the boys. They also barely communicate with you about anything significant.

On top of that, your family is kinda pathologically "traditional," in that your brothers get treated distinctly better than you, you got a shitload of chores to do, and your dad, who is in charge of the family, doesn't do shit around the house. Your relatives are all similar, they also got kind of fucked-up backwards attitudes, and you're getting kinda tired of this biased treatment and lack of affection.

Is it any fucking wonder you might wanna try for a White boy to get out of this shit?

So yeah, you might all jump all over me for saying this shit, but it happens all the time. Am I invoking stereotypes? Sure. Read my "Stereotypical" entry under the Declarations for more thoughts on this.

I wanna take a good hard look at what's happening here. This shit doesn't occur in in a vaccuum. CCBs don't just magically appear. There has to be a cause or set of causes.

In a very real sense, "we," (and I mean "we" as North American Asians) created these CCBs. We cannot absolve ourselves of responsibility to them, nor can we just bitch-slap them into sanity or repetenance by abusing them or cutting them off. They are a result of what we are.

Now this is not to say that we have full responsibility for this. White society is responsible, and the individual her(him)self is also responsible. But we played a part. No, Blacks and Browns don't "sell out" as much as AFs do, so there are further cultural aspects to consider beyond what I've mentioned here. But imagine if you were the sister of Fatfish, or Yellow_Peril, or threekingdoms. What the fuck would you do? You'd be getting as far the fuck away from AMs as you possibly could.

This is of course not a justification, but something of a social systems explanation. We all understand how a CCB can manifest. In her worldview, consciously or unconsciously, she's getting fucked around by all this Asian culture, and the White boy seems to want to embrace her as she is, without any of the cultural baggage associated with the Asian. This is hard to fucking turn down.

So my point is to understand what makes the CCB. If she were your sister, you'd still love her and look out for her 'cause she was your sister. You'd force yourself to be more compassionate and understanding. You don't have to separate "personal" and "politics." You'd just have to say to yourself that CCBs are fucked-up bitches, but they weren't created in a vacuuum, and maybe try to see where they're coming from.

Does this make you mad? Fuck yeah. I think about starting bar fights with White boys and sellout Asians all the time. But one thing Fighting44s eternally fights against is closed-mindedness and cold-heartedness. We know you wanna blow up at that stone-cold bitch-ass CCB: in almost all cases, it's justified 'cause racism and bigotry are to be fought and eradicated wherever they appear. But as you blow up, remember that your people also had a hand in making her, and that your anger and rage and fury and passion can also be applied to unmaking her.

[generaltojo]

Tojo advocates the "separation of the politics and the personal." This, to me, is an incomplete solution. Politics IS personal. If you happen to know a really cool CCB who's your friend or your sister, you can't just say "I hate CCBs but that's just politics and this person is my friend." Not only will you get called out publicly with that shit and have no defence, BUT there will always be a constant tension inside you as well.

No offense D, but thatís a gross misinterpretation and simplification of my position on this.

Itís obvious, but Iíll say it again anyway: I treat CCBís as a social phenomenon ñ one thatís far too pervasive and obvious to ignore. As a phenomena, it is clearly one that is disturbing, unjust, and just plain fucked up. Because phenomena are global things that affect large groups of individuals ñ be they good ones, bad ones, smart ones, stupid ones ñ politics are involved. And because politics are involved, political tactics and strategy must be employed. Is it ideal? No. Is it integrative? Not really. Will some people slip through the cracks and get hurt? Possibly (and you can try to do your best to prevent this from happening.)

But it is reality, and itís whatís driven causes and movements since time immemorial ñ to ignore it, or give it a second-class standing, or even an EQUAL standing for the sake of compassion and integration would be doing an injustice for what amounts to a right and just and even noble cause of regaining Asian masculinity stolen from us in this world. Itís what I care about. Itís what a lot of guys on this board care about. And thatís a precious gift ñ to care about something so much that you want to get up and do something about it. Iím not going to let anyone tell me that itís ìwrongî to care about it, and let someone else who ultimately understands less about myself than I do steer me onto their course, which is ultimately based on their personal context, not mine.

Because itís my choice. This is politics. Politics is brutal and ruthless. No quarter is asked for, because none is given by your opponent. There are those ñ the sleazy opportunists out there ñ who would slit your throats out there, and no amount of integrative thought will change that harsh and primal reality.

Okay. So what about ìpersonal life?î Will these politics interfere or conflict with ìpersonal life?î Does taking this ruthless political point of view while having personal relationships with CCB's discredit you, cause tension within you that will destroy you in the end?

Maybe. But not necessarily. To have politics - especially noble politics - is precious. To have friends are equally precious. And with friends, you care enough to take into account their personal contexts. And they benefit, and you benefit. One manís hypocrisy is anotherís flexibility. And flexibility is the key to navigating the rocks and shoals of a rather confusing life.

When I say ìpersonal life,î Iím alluding to something that is fundamental to the whole philosophy of 44 weíre trying to espouse here: personal empowerment. Not politics, not movements, not advocacy or petitions or anything global like that ñ itís all about you, what you want, what you need to not only get through this life, but succeed in it.

In the case of individual CCBís, you need to trust yourself, do what you want to get what you need. If you want to vent, do it if it gets what you want, if it salves your pain, whatever. If you want to be integrative, to take the time out to be compassionate and understand the reasons why behind it, and there probably are some, do that. You can do both. Your judgment is the key ñ gain as much information as you can about the phenomenon to make informed choices, and apply it to your personal life on a CASE BY CASE BASIS. Blanket anger will screw you over. Blanket compassion will screw you over, too. Strategic anger and compassion can work for you ñ but only if you understand yourself. By knowing all there is to know about the situation, youíre in the best position possible to fully trust your own judgment, and proceed accordingly.

In short: itís your choice. Donít ever let that choice go because someone tells you that itís wrong, you need to be integrative. You CAN make it all work for you. Have confidence in that.

In the case of having a sister or relative of a CCB, thatís a real toughie. Iím blessed to say thatís not the case in my family, and thus feel unable to offer anything but my humble opinion, and that is this: because youíre a brother, you have access to personal information and context unavailable to others. About your sister, your family. Use that information for yourself, and yourself only ñ to get what you need from the situation, to get what you want, to get to the point you want to be in. If that means excommunication, fine. If that means compassion, fine. Itís all part of the process, no one action is ever permanent and will always be subject to change.

Iíve learned that compassion is very important, but you canít truly be compassionate towards others until youíre compassionate towards yourself. That doesnít mean being selfish and screwing other people over to meet your ruthless personal goals; but it does mean placing yourself in a number one position, despite what culture or society or parents or anyone else says your SHOULD do. Being compassionate towards a sister CCB ñ supporting them at all costs, protecting them, etc. ñ thatís all out of duty, honour, code. But if you do it out of resentment, itíll never work. You have to do it because it services you first and foremost. And in order to have that situation, you ultimately have to figure it out for yourself. THIS is the personal life I keep going on about ñ a process that includes anger, venting, irrationality, even insanityÖ along with reasoning, compassion, and integration. Compassion must be acknowledged; but the undeniable anger in all of us must be as wellÖ thatís truly ìintegrative,î isnít it? They are all part of the same package that is you. To deny one is to cause REAL tension within yourself; to accept both, to use both to get what you want, and where you want to is the key to succeeding in personal life. Sounds libertarian, Nietzschean even, but it is what it is.

Maybe the anger will melt into understanding and even peace one day ñ actually, probably no ìmaybeî about it, I think it just will based on ageing (I think weíre all ìintegrativeî in this way as individuals.) But that anger ñ ah, that anger. So compelling, powerful ñ itís almost a gift, if you use it wisely, and avoid being stupid about it and having it destroy you. But itís a finite gift ñ we all know that our energy and passion will change, if not disappear, as we get on in the years. Thatís why itís important to embrace it, and to use it in such a way that will get what you want out of life (itís a tough thing ñ think controlling nuclear fission ñ but I think itís entirely possible.)

Because if you dismiss it, ignore it, youíd be wasting one of the most valuable resources you have. Having blanket compassion, over-intellectualizing the CCB phenom, dilutes that valuable resourceÖand it does a great disservice to the Mission from God we as Asian men should be on at one point in our lives before we get married, have 2.2 kids, picket fence and an SUV in the garage. Not to mention that that sort of thinking can easily screw you over by a flip of a coin: there are people who get it, and people who donít ñ and if weíre merely compassionate as a rule of thumb, youíll end up being a doormat for what amounts to wrong-headed choices based on an unjust phenomenon. The politics of this phenomenon will dictate that in many cases, the CCB will either misunderstand you, ignore you, or even lash out at you. Or take advantage of you. That ainít personal empowerment ñ thatís being a sucker.

In the case you described ñ growing up an Asian woman in NA, distant father, brothers that conform to a dreaded geeky stereotype, etc. ñ sorry dude, thatís a single case, and itís a gross simplification to say ìthis is a common case, understand that, shoulder the responsibility.î (Iím sure THATíS a simplification of what youíre saying, but Iíve written too much already to play parse the argumentÖ)

There are just as many cases where your family is pretty darned cool, but hereís a perfectly valid counter-case: the Asian woman in question is a materialistic, or unintelligent, or mercenary, or a sociobiologically-malleable unpleasant idiot. If you take the time out to understand someone like this, what do you advocate? Compassion? Forget it ñ thereís only a certain amount of bandwidth you can focus, why waste it on such a waste of skin? We all have to figure it ourselves at the end of the day, and we all have the choice between dignity and selling out, and she made the wrong choice, period. I understand that collectively ìweî may (at least on some abstract level) ìcreatedî these CCBís. But at another visceral level, they created themselves. We all have freedom and choice in North America, and these types of CCBís had the freedom to make what is clearly a wrong choice devoid of dignity that will very likely bite them in the ass in the end, because you can never run away from who you are. Ever.

Back to choice. As 44, we are confronted with a choice. Based on our understanding of the phenomena, the politics, our own personal context and experience, we have the freedom to make an informed choice. We have the choice to be compassionate and point that out, or excersise more negative choices, of which anger is one that is perfectly valid and even useful ñ if itís what you want, and gets you what you want, take itÖ itís yours.

1. Politically, you might take the choice of exposing this fraud for what she is, and do it for your politics, which ultimately means youíre doing it for you. Sounds libertarian, even selfish, but it is YOUR CHOICE.

2. Personally, if you choose to be compassionate, and absorb this person and her life and her reasons into yours as a ìfriend,î well, thatís your choice too. But I know deep down that this choice is fraught with peril ñ she has already demonstrated pro-active choice, and your compassion may be used against you, you become a doormat or a shoulder to cry on, and the relationship will firmly be dictated by her, and then youíll have to end it, and then itíll hurt you and her. Then youíll get more experience, but that course of action clearly lacked wisdom (which is knowledge and foresight obtained before having to deal with the experience.)

In short: trust your own instincts. Youíre a smart, informed, confident, personally empowered 44. Any choice you make ñ including anger ñ is valid and just, and as long as it works for you, do it, and donít let anybody tell you otherwise that youíre making the wrong decision. Never let anyone else tell you that your choice is wrong. Because thatís subjective. At the end of the day, itís your choice, and if you trust yourself, thatís all that matters.

[Dcyfer]

And Fatfish, being the sensitive man that he is, said fuck that, it's time to cut them off because they're not worthy of your consideration or love.

Well that shit is clearly fucked-up and insane. They're his sisters for chrissake.

So how do you resolve this?
One of my sistas is an anti-Sino misandrist "Joy Luck" "feminist." She's marrying a naive guilt-trippin' liberal WM next year. She takes every opportunity to bash AMs and "traditional" Asian culture and show out for white folk. While playing the AF victim card to draw sympathy. I have steadily distanced myself from her ever since she started bashing AMs maybe 5-7 years ago. It really sucks that I have no brothers and my dad is too far removed from this generation to care or relate to our struggle. Cuz, it's high time to school her and put a stop to the constant rhetoric. But, it's hard when you are the smallest minority in your family.

How can I possibly show love to someone who shows my identity (AM) absolutely no respect? That's disrespecting myself to do so. Unfortunately, we don't pick our families - cuz in real life the answer would be simple. Ignore her and let her be. It's a free country, after all.

Wel, the next time she starts with her wholesale Sino-bashing, REST ASSURED I WILL counter all her lame "Aunty Tan" propaganda. I don't really know what else to do though. BTW, 2/3 more of our AF cousins are also marrying WMs next year as well. And all of our family friends' daughters as well.

Overall, I really don't know what the solution is. I don't think some of these AFs exploiting false "Joy Luck" rhetoric for self-gain really know how much damage they are doing to AMs and their families.

[generaltojo]

Overall, I really don't know what the solution is.

I don't think there is a single overall solution. I think the only thing we can do is what's best for ourselves, and the best we can. If that means calling out your sister, so be it.


I don't think some of these AFs exploiting false "Joy Luck" rhetoric for self-gain really know how much damage they are doing to AMs and their families.

They may be doing damage collectively, but we have the power to stop them doing damage to ourselves...

BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

[Dcyfer]

Let's just say it's incredibly painful and isolating facing racism in the outside world and then coming home to face a shotgun pointed at your face wielded by your own sistas. Where else can an AM turn? That's why I entertain fantasies of moving abroad where even strangers embrace me more warmly. Fvck this country. Fvck my family. Fvck the hate. Fvck my fate.

I have a dream...

[generaltojo]

You're at home with 44. Stay strong...

[bluejives]

Let's just say it's incredibly painful and isolating facing racism in the outside world and then coming home to face a shotgun pointed at your face wielded by your own sistas. Where else can an AM turn? That's why I entertain fantasies of moving abroad where even strangers embrace me more warmly. Fvck this country. Fvck my family. Fvck the hate. Fvck my fate.

I have a dream...

I know exactly how you feel. I spent my childhood and teenage years fighting with black and hispanic kids in the Bronx. Then in my twenties I had to watch legions of asian-american women hooking with white men. Now in the professional world i have to deal with subtle racism in the workplace (i may start a separate thread on that).

But as I have said before, the wholesale rejection and emasculation of asian men at the very hands of our own sisters is as symbolic of our struggle as the lynching of the black man was for the blacks during the days of Jim Crow. Joy Luck Club feminism AFs are truly Sisters of No Mercy.

The Asian Man is truly beset on all fronts. Traditionally the righteous asian man have had to fight multiple foes. I can think of at least one prime example in Korean history, Admiral Yi Soon Shin, who developed the Kobukson. Is it any wonder that many martial arts films depict a lone hero combatting many enemies at the same time? Is it any wonder that we had to develop such a thing as martial arts and treatises like The Art of War. Asian women complain about us men not being 'romantic' or 'chivalrous'. We never had a chance! We were too busy keeping wolves at bay. I like to compare myself to Zaitoichi. Handicapped with disadvantages, such as blindness and being member of a lower social class, he fights with multiple enemies and stays alive, due to his sheer skill as a swordsman, and protects the weak and helpless.

[OpaqueSplndr]

I, as well, have ALL the females in my immediate family choose WM over AM. This INCLUDES my mother. The by-product of this was the shunning of my brother and me. We didnt even have a father who was the same color as us. I'm probably the "Most Asian" in my family now, I don't really stay in contact with my brother, though he's a fighter I don't know that he really cares soo much about AA issues. (He looks more like my father)

So CCB's are plentiful in my family. I don't know why they choose WM. Though I think it has alot do with everything. Social aspects. The environment we grow up in. The family hardships that can occur. The opportunities we have. With whom we can relate with. I mean I, growing up in the same house, prefer WF over AF. Am I going to stop loving, or love my sisters or mom less? HELL NO! If we get in the faces of these CCB's and curse them out, aren't we just propagating their resentment of AM?? It would be more ammo for them to carry around...no?

Lastly, not defending them, but WHY is it AM or men in general, are demanding that women act a certain way? They should be able to choose who they want to be with the rest of their lives. If they pass up AM just because of some shitty racist stereotyping by white media then isn't that THEIR own fault. Just as if all AM began passing up all AF cause of this CCB stereotyping....??

I say, as General Tojo said, take everything and everyone on a case by case basis. Generalizing people or how they act and how they grew up is the same generalizations WE are trying to get rid of! The best thing to do is to show CCB's that there are cool ass AM out there. Show them by being chill. Be smart, smash down the "Norm AM" racist stereotypes. Don't be afraid of who you want to be. if you want to spread your wings then to so, at the expense of racism!

I recently found out that this HOTT ass white co-worker of mine is dating a Ph(F)illipino. She told me straight up, "He's an older version of you" I got her to look at AM as an option for her. Hes a really cool ass guy, and I'm really happy for her, him and most of all every white guy they grumbles, looking at them making out!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Be chill.
Be good.
Keep fighting the good fight!

[generaltojo]

Great post, OS. Sounds like you have a pretty good grip on who you are (or, at least you're getting there) despite some pretty discouraging circumstances. And I'm glad you have the compassion to reach out to fellow 44 to share that grip.

[Dialectic]

This is what I wanted: a serious discussion concerning attitudes and responses to the CCB phenomenon.

First, let me clarify the content of my original post: NOWHERE in this post do I advocate any particular mode of action, nor do I attempt to limit or quash choice. I simply offer an expanded range of possibilities for reaction, based on an expanded understanding of underlying causes.

So to address specific points:

No offense D, but thatís a gross misinterpretation and simplification of my position on this.

Itís obvious, but Iíll say it again anyway: I treat CCBís as a social phenomenon ñ one thatís far too pervasive and obvious to ignore. As a phenomena, it is clearly one that is disturbing, unjust, and just plain fucked up. Because phenomena are global things that affect large groups of individuals ñ be they good ones, bad ones, smart ones, stupid ones ñ politics are involved. And because politics are involved, political tactics and strategy must be employed. Is it ideal? No. Is it integrative? Not really. Will some people slip through the cracks and get hurt? Possibly (and you can try to do your best to prevent this from happening.)

I agree that politics are involved. Politics are involved in any human interactive phenomena. As for whether political tactics are "integrative," that depends on what the tactic and intention is. We're not dealing with a naive idealism or pollyanna approach to anything here, which is what you seem to have inferred from my explanations of integration. Killing someone or ruining his/ her career can be integrative, under the appropriate circumstances and with the appropriate intention. I agree that political tactics and strategy must be employed. So far, other than differing standpoints on what "integrative" is, we seem to be in agreement.

But it is reality, and itís whatís driven causes and movements since time immemorial ñ to ignore it, or give it a second-class standing, or even an EQUAL standing for the sake of compassion and integration would be doing an injustice for what amounts to a right and just and even noble cause of regaining Asian masculinity stolen from us in this world. Itís what I care about. Itís what a lot of guys on this board care about. And thatís a precious gift ñ to care about something so much that you want to get up and do something about it. Iím not going to let anyone tell me that itís ìwrongî to care about it, and let someone else who ultimately understands less about myself than I do steer me onto their course, which is ultimately based on their personal context, not mine.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with this idea that I or anyone here would advocate ignoring the phenomenon, giving it a second-class standing, or an equal standing to some other cause you haven't defined. Nor did I or anyone here say it was wrong to care about it. I would vehemently disagree with this hypothetical objector that it was wrong or a trivial matter. Again, we seem to be in agreement.

Because itís my choice. This is politics. Politics is brutal and ruthless. No quarter is asked for, because none is given by your opponent. There are those ñ the sleazy opportunists out there ñ who would slit your throats out there, and no amount of integrative thought will change that harsh and primal reality.

Again, integrative thought accepts harshness and primalness. Also, I didn't make a statement on the nature of politics, "brutal and ruthless" or otherwise. All I said was politics and personal can't be so easily parsed. Aside from differing interpretations of "integrative" we still seem to be in agreement.

Okay. So what about ìpersonal life?î Will these politics interfere or conflict with ìpersonal life?î Does taking this ruthless political point of view while having personal relationships with CCB's discredit you, cause tension within you that will destroy you in the end?

Maybe. But not necessarily. To have politics - especially noble politics - is precious. To have friends are equally precious. And with friends, you care enough to take into account their personal contexts. And they benefit, and you benefit. One manís hypocrisy is anotherís flexibility. And flexibility is the key to navigating the rocks and shoals of a rather confusing life.

Perhaps one man's hypocrisy is another's flexibility, but this sounds suspiciously post-modern and politically-correct. I've certainly been accused of being hypocritical on this forum, albeit by the dumber members of the board. If I understand correctly, you say that with those you care about, you take into account their personal contexts. I of course agree with this approach.

When I say ìpersonal life,î Iím alluding to something that is fundamental to the whole philosophy of 44 weíre trying to espouse here: personal empowerment. Not politics, not movements, not advocacy or petitions or anything global like that ñ itís all about you, what you want, what you need to not only get through this life, but succeed in it.

This idea moves into dangerous ground. A CCB or Joy Luck feminist could say the same damn thing. I as a strong AF (who happens to only find WMs attractive) espouse personal empowerment. Not politics, not movements, not advocacy or petitions - it's all about me, what I want, and what I need to not only get through this life, but succeed in it. I'd like to think Fighting44s is indeed about more than this, as we do espouse a set of values: intelligence, open-mindedness, and a constant struggle against the forces of cold and darkness in this world.

In the case of individual CCBís, you need to trust yourself, do what you want to get what you need. If you want to vent, do it if it gets what you want, if it salves your pain, whatever. If you want to be integrative, to take the time out to be compassionate and understand the reasons why behind it, and there probably are some, do that. You can do both. Your judgment is the key ñ gain as much information as you can about the phenomenon to make informed choices, and apply it to your personal life on a CASE BY CASE BASIS. Blanket anger will screw you over. Blanket compassion will screw you over, too. Strategic anger and compassion can work for you ñ but only if you understand yourself. By knowing all there is to know about the situation, youíre in the best position possible to fully trust your own judgment, and proceed accordingly.

Again, with regard to valuing choice and not advocating a specific action, we seem to be in agreement. With regard to understanding the reasons CCBs arise (and indeed, the value of understanding the reasons anything arise), we also seem to agree: "gain as much information as you can about the phenomenon to make informed choices, and apply it to your personal life on a CASE BY CASE BASIS." This does not conflict with my stance of understanding where CCB comes from. I suspect that our debate stems from differing interpretations of "integrative" and "compassionate." "Blanket compassion" can't screw you, because true compassion doesn't make you a pussy or a push-over or a pollyanna. It makes you understand more of the world and gives you the ability to act from a maximum of information.

In short: itís your choice. Donít ever let that choice go because someone tells you that itís wrong, you need to be integrative. You CAN make it all work for you. Have confidence in that.

I never said anything about the "wrong" treatment of CCBs, simply that if one were your sister, it's likely you'd treat her better than if she weren't, and it's probably good to adopt some kind of mindset/ worldview that doesn't cause a stressful and destruction tension in your heart that requires you to "separate" aspects of your being. Nor did I say that you "need" to be integrative: I merely say that integration facilitates the resolution of this tension. I'd also liked to point out that I never once used the term "integrative" in my original post, which was a deliberate choice. I do so here in response to Tojo.

In the case of having a sister or relative of a CCB, thatís a real toughie. Iím blessed to say thatís not the case in my family, and thus feel unable to offer anything but my humble opinion, and that is this: because youíre a brother, you have access to personal information and context unavailable to others. About your sister, your family. Use that information for yourself, and yourself only ñ to get what you need from the situation, to get what you want, to get to the point you want to be in. If that means excommunication, fine. If that means compassion, fine. Itís all part of the process, no one action is ever permanent and will always be subject to change.

Again, a Joy Luck feminist or CCB could use the same argument.

Iíve learned that compassion is very important, but you canít truly be compassionate towards others until youíre compassionate towards yourself. That doesnít mean being selfish and screwing other people over to meet your ruthless personal goals; but it does mean placing yourself in a number one position, despite what culture or society or parents or anyone else says your SHOULD do. Being compassionate towards a sister CCB ñ supporting them at all costs, protecting them, etc. ñ thatís all out of duty, honour, code. But if you do it out of resentment, itíll never work. You have to do it because it services you first and foremost. And in order to have that situation, you ultimately have to figure it out for yourself. THIS is the personal life I keep going on about ñ a process that includes anger, venting, irrationality, even insanityÖ along with reasoning, compassion, and integration. Compassion must be acknowledged; but the undeniable anger in all of us must be as wellÖ thatís truly ìintegrative,î isnít it? They are all part of the same package that is you. To deny one is to cause REAL tension within yourself; to accept both, to use both to get what you want, and where you want to is the key to succeeding in personal life. Sounds libertarian, Nietzschean even, but it is what it is.

Again, I never advocated a universal mode of action, nor did I say CCBs should be supported at "all costs." I agree that if the intention stems from resentment, that it will never work. I also agree that you should figure out for yourself what you want in life and do everything you can to get it, but I say this with a proviso: do it while holding certain values or you're no better than any other asshole. In the case of the emasculated AM, yes, I advocate "regression therapy" and behaving like a chauvinistic asshole for a while, but only in the context of becoming a healthier whole tomorrow. This is being "truly integrative." Being an asshole who uses and abuses people for his own gain, defining himself "on his own terms" (a phrase quickly becoming a favorite on this forum), without that wider understanding is something I do not advocate. If I did, then the CCB and the KKK are on as solid moral ground as we are.

Maybe the anger will melt into understanding and even peace one day ñ actually, probably no ìmaybeî about it, I think it just will based on ageing (I think weíre all ìintegrativeî in this way as individuals.) But that anger ñ ah, that anger. So compelling, powerful ñ itís almost a gift, if you use it wisely, and avoid being stupid about it and having it destroy you. But itís a finite gift ñ we all know that our energy and passion will change, if not disappear, as we get on in the years. Thatís why itís important to embrace it, and to use it in such a way that will get what you want out of life (itís a tough thing ñ think controlling nuclear fission ñ but I think itís entirely possible.)

I don't disagree with this, and NEVER did I say to not use that anger.

Because if you dismiss it, ignore it, youíd be wasting one of the most valuable resources you have. Having blanket compassion, over-intellectualizing the CCB phenom, dilutes that valuable resourceÖand it does a great disservice to the Mission from God we as Asian men should be on at one point in our lives before we get married, have 2.2 kids, picket fence and an SUV in the garage. Not to mention that that sort of thinking can easily screw you over by a flip of a coin: there are people who get it, and people who donít ñ and if weíre merely compassionate as a rule of thumb, youíll end up being a doormat for what amounts to wrong-headed choices based on an unjust phenomenon. The politics of this phenomenon will dictate that in many cases, the CCB will either misunderstand you, ignore you, or even lash out at you. Or take advantage of you. That ainít personal empowerment ñ thatís being a sucker.

I never said to dismiss, ignore, or otherwise trivialize it. This "blanket compassion" is not the compassion I'm advocating. I'm advocating wisdom in action, and understanding the depth of causality. This "integral compassion" you keep referring to is not "integral" at all. It's pollyanna and doormat behavior which I certainly do not advocate. The point isn't to make yourself vulnerable to the CCB; it isn't to make yourself a target. It's to take responsibility and stop acting like a damn victim.

In the case you described ñ growing up an Asian woman in NA, distant father, brothers that conform to a dreaded geeky stereotype, etc. ñ sorry dude, thatís a single case, and itís a gross simplification to say ìthis is a common case, understand that, shoulder the responsibility.î (Iím sure THATíS a simplification of what youíre saying, but Iíve written too much already to play parse the argumentÖ)

This passage I got a problem with. First, you are correct in assuming you've simplified. I'm NOT saying to "shoulder the responsibility" of racism and bigotry in our own pathological sisters. I'm saying to take a wider view and understand the complexities of causality. And the case I described? It's NOT single. I've been to the university you and ZG went to. I SAW the AMs there. I've seen a TON of middle-class AMs in my life, and many of them (along with the emotionally distant fathers I mentioned) FIT the damn stereotype. That's part of the problem, and it IS a common case. ZG and I, as one of manu examples, WERE that stereotype back in the day. In many ways, on the inside, we still are. This is how we got to where we all are. This is why we made The Fighting44s. If the majority of us grew up confident and well-built and well-spoken and had great moms and dads who were intellectually and emotionally-intelligent, this shit wouldn't even be here. We can't ignore what caused the formation of the Fighting44s: it's not just the White man, not just the CCB, not just being the sons and daughters of nervous immigrants, being Asian and all that implies caused it as well. Internal and external factors CO-ARISE.

And the fact that something caused the rise of The Fighting44s, this is the big fucking problem, and we will not ignore it by saying "damn man, that's a stereotype, get that outta here." It exists, it's ubiquitous in academic and cosmopolitan circles, and if it is changing at all, it is changing very, very slowly.

There are just as many cases where your family is pretty darned cool, but hereís a perfectly valid counter-case: the Asian woman in question is a materialistic, or unintelligent, or mercenary, or a sociobiologically-malleable unpleasant idiot. If you take the time out to understand someone like this, what do you advocate? Compassion? Forget it ñ thereís only a certain amount of bandwidth you can focus, why waste it on such a waste of skin? We all have to figure it ourselves at the end of the day, and we all have the choice between dignity and selling out, and she made the wrong choice, period. I understand that collectively ìweî may (at least on some abstract level) ìcreatedî these CCBís. But at another visceral level, they created themselves. We all have freedom and choice in North America, and these types of CCBís had the freedom to make what is clearly a wrong choice devoid of dignity that will very likely bite them in the ass in the end, because you can never run away from who you are. Ever.

I don't disagree with you here. Do not try to open up and foster understanding with her, unless you're pretty much a Buddha. It can only hurt you. I have never advocated otherwise. Also, that "freedom" is not so absolute: we had the "freedom" to be cool and popular and well-adjusted, too.

Back to choice. As 44, we are confronted with a choice. Based on our understanding of the phenomena, the politics, our own personal context and experience, we have the freedom to make an informed choice. We have the choice to be compassionate and point that out, or excersise more negative choices, of which anger is one that is perfectly valid and even useful ñ if itís what you want, and gets you what you want, take itÖ itís yours.

No. This is the stance of the CCB. She thinks she's informed. She thinks she's entitled to exercise negative and bigoted and hating choices. She knows what she wants, gets what she wants, and takes what she wants because it's rightfully hers. We advocate specific values, one of which is wisdom or deep intelligence, which begets wise compassion, which understands and addresses and uses (with "skillful means") functional limitations, regression, and violence.

1. Politically, you might take the choice of exposing this fraud for what she is, and do it for your politics, which ultimately means youíre doing it for you. Sounds libertarian, even selfish, but it is YOUR CHOICE.

And exposing us for the insecure and emotionally-retarded frauds some of us are is her choice.

2. Personally, if you choose to be compassionate, and absorb this person and her life and her reasons into yours as a ìfriend,î well, thatís your choice too. But I know deep down that this choice is fraught with peril ñ she has already demonstrated pro-active choice, and your compassion may be used against you, you become a doormat or a shoulder to cry on, and the relationship will firmly be dictated by her, and then youíll have to end it, and then itíll hurt you and her. Then youíll get more experience, but that course of action clearly lacked wisdom (which is knowledge and foresight obtained before having to deal with the experience.)

I never advocated an absolute stance of always trying to absorb this person and her life and her reasons into yours as a "friend." I have cut out several CCBs from my life who are actually quite nice people for various reasons, most non-politically-related (I hate hanging out with couples all the time, for example). I never said to be a fucking doormat or a shoulder to cry on. I never said to risk hurting yourself by trying to help someone who possibly can't be helped.

In short: trust your own instincts. Youíre a smart, informed, confident, personally empowered 44. Any choice you make ñ including anger ñ is valid and just, and as long as it works for you, do it, and donít let anybody tell you otherwise that youíre making the wrong decision. Never let anyone else tell you that your choice is wrong. Because thatís subjective. At the end of the day, itís your choice, and if you trust yourself, thatís all that matters.

Maybe any given reader here is a smart, informed, confident, personally empowered 44, or maybe s/he's grasped an ideology and comes to this site for approval and validation. There IS a such thing as a right and a wrong decision, or we can't criticize the CCB. If people you recognize as a little wise or a little insightful or a little credible tell you that your choice is wrong, maybe you should actually listen and consider, because the "right and wrong are subjective" line is harmful and dangerous. And let me say again, I never said cutting out or verbally attacking CCBs was wrong: it's not, but it may very well lead to no good if you do so without a comprehensive understanding of causality.

AMs in particular need to learn to trust themselves more: this I agree with, and I never said otherwise. We have to make ourselves better than all the rest, because only then will we even have the possibility of being seen as equals.

[Taliesin Stormheller]

CCBs are definitely the bane of Asian America. You guys really raised some good questions and ideas here. Although I don't have any sisters (I have a brother who's too young to know about the dire state of Asian American matters) I do have a lot of sistafriends since childhood who prefer white boys. None of them are classic whitewashed CCBs, a few are Joy Luck Feminists, but most are strong Sistas who practice the martial arts, hang with Asians and try to actually teach their boyfriends (who are not asiaphiles btw, I know these guys) about AA issues and Asian culture. They're not all E/SE Asian, many are South Asian, Asian Latino (yet they choose Anglo... strange) or Arabic.
I've done my share of spreading militant literature and tellin' the sistas about these sites, and they comprehend but they don't KNOW the truth. They give excuses like 'love knows no color' and 'this is the 21st century' and one of them said 'you are a FOB' playfully. Although I really dislike selloutism, I can't leave my sistafriends who've been with me through thick and thin for all these years. Advice please!

[Dialectic]

" ... and they comprehend but they don't KNOW the truth."

Ha ha, TS, that line was CLASSIC. I love it!

Glad you posted here. Your concern gets right to the heart of the matter. You have a radical view, in that you are against IRs (which, by the way, Tojo and I are not, though we get annoyed by shallow ones), but you have close friends who are engaged in IRs and you would still help them and stand up for them no matter what, as a good friend should do.

As I see it, you can take one of the two broad stances we put forth which are somewhat similar, but are still, I suspect, fundamentally different.

Tojo's advice (as interpreted by me):

Treating your friends and family differently from the "average person" when it comes to morality is not being hypocritical, it is being flexible. Personal issues/ relationships should be kept separate from political views/ stances. Your friends are making a conscious decision with some idea of its implications (as you have described them), that should be enough. While you are against IRs in a general sense, when it comes to specifics, you cannot damn a friend or cut her off for being in one, because she is your friend, you know her and her bf as three-dimensional human beings, and you and she have been through so much together.

My advice:

Personal and political cannot really be separated without causing tension in yourself and in your relationships, and/ or leaving yourself open to (somewhat justified) political attack/ discomfort from friends, family, and the general public. How can you be totally against WM/AF or IR, believe that it is harmful and loaded with racial prejudice, and then look the other way for your friends and family? Where is the basis for exempting them, the people in this world who you care about most? Shouldn't you be most adamant about your views with them, given that you believe the activity in which they are engaged is personally and socially harmful?

This tension cannot, I believe, be adequately resolved with Tojo's stance. It will always be an issue in someone's heart or at the back of someone's mind. It will always be a minor (or possibly major) point of contention.

This is why I think an optimal solution is a compassionate, integrated, developmental view. IRs cannot be generally damned: genuine love can blossom in an IR, and happy families can result from them. Yes, many of them start from some sort of racialized desire, and so we should be wary of the motives behind them, and yes, many of them fall apart, and so we should be aware of the fact that they result in extra complexity which is more difficult to navigate. But they are not intrinsically unhealthy or pathological. We should not throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. We can be against racial objectification, dehumanization, exotification, assimilation, and we should do all we can to eradicate those things, but that does not mean we have to eradicate all the situations in which they have a high chance of occurring.

You like Star Trek right? The Vulcan creed: "Infinite diversity in infinite combinations." This is a beautiful thing and should be encouraged with care.

Finally, when it comes to discussing these issues with people, it's always useful to try to discern what stage of development they are at in terms of cognition and morality. Then you can address them more effectively by introducing ideas that are just slightly beyond where they are at, by pushing them (or pulling them) very gently into a slightly more insightful view of the world.

Crux of what I'm saying? Don't be against IRs intrinsically. Be against bad IRs. That makes all the difference.

[BeTheReds]

Crux of what I'm saying? Don't be against IRs intrinsically. Be against bad IRs. That makes all the difference.

How do you know which ones are bad? When the Azn woman is hot? LOL


Anyway I can understand all this rage with CCBs and everything, but one thing I hate about it is that all of the rage against IR and CCBs gets channeled onto me and my GF (Whoever she may be at the time) when I am in America and I'm fucking sick of it. Should I fucking wear a shirt that says "I'm Asian too brother, stop staring!"? Whenever I am with an Asian chick in the US, Japan, or in Korea(especially in Korea), the staring and the people talking about me gets on my fuckin nerves. Yea, what you see may look like an WM/AF couple, but it isn't. It's an AM/AF couple. I'm sorry we don't look like a ROOTS ad, but it wasn't my choice to come out looking the way I did. Leave me and my girl the fuck alone.

I can't really complain I suppose, because whe I see a lone Asian female surrounded totally by a group of whites, or an WMAF couple, my blood boils too, and I immedieately think of the people in a negative light. I always think negatively first until I think otherwise, which is kinda shitty I must admit, and also very hypocritical cuz I hate it when the same shit happens to me. The only difference though is that I don't stare, and I don't verbaly abuse people when I see an IR. I just don't do anything, because it's really not my business, and not my place to judge what's going on.

I kinda wish everyone else would do the same as I did. Talk about it, rant about it for therapy, but don't act upon it until you find reason to act upon it. And don't under any circumstances give me one of those "why" cards unless you want to have a long boring conversation about IRs, my justification for who I choose to date, and how bigoted it is to be overly judgemental of someone's situation when you don't know anything beneath what you see on the surface.

And 70% of the time, the people who bitch about the WMAF couple are really really happy to see the AMWF couple. I've heard people say that it's the solution to the problem. I've had people tell me that I'm part of the solution cuz my dad knocked up a white girl. But sometimes it feels like people think I am the problem.

Now I know, that not everyone should be expected to know my background and political outlook immediately upon seeing me, especially because the way I look will throw them off, and I've gotten to a point where I can accept being seen as an outsider by people who don't know me. But don't be all judgemental and angry when you don't know for sure that there is a reason to be so.

/rant

[bumb1ebee]

This is a really depressing thread. On the bright side, I have two sisters and none of them are CCBs despite the fact that we spent our adolescence in Scottsdale, AZ (with an Asian population of a whopping 0.6%). There's still hope :D

[Heyyu]

Wow, after reading through all this in one sitting, I have to say my brain is fried right now. So I'll cut to the chase:

I have a sister who's a CCB. But I don't hate her for that. Yet I'm still against CCB's. Hypocritical? Perhaps. How to solve this conundrum? You don't, you just accept it.

However, I have to point out something I don't agree with in this thread: the excuse that since an AF grew up in a "traditional" Asian family with typical backward attitudes towards women (i.e. emotionally-distant father or brothers who treated her like crap). So therefore, that pushed her to only date WM and loathe AM (since they embodied her father and brothers).

But I know plenty of white females who had crappy-ass misogynist fathers who were never there for them and even abused them. So using that logic, shouldn't all emotionally-abused WF's quit dating their own race as well? But yet, they still grow up to date WM nonetheless. And I know plenty of black females and Hispanic females who had bad fathers yet many still dated black men and Hispanic men.

I'm not saying family doesn't play a part, but to use that excuse as one of the primary causes of CCB doesn't fly with me. I agree with Tojo that CCB is in it's own ways a social phenomenon; one that's far-reaching in scope with causes that are far too numerous and complicated to reduce to a few simple stereotypes.

[Dialectic]

However, I have to point out something I don't agree with in this thread: the excuse that since an AF grew up in a "traditional" Asian family with typical backward attitudes towards women (i.e. emotionally-distant father or brothers who treated her like crap). So therefore, that pushed her to only date WM and loathe AM (since they embodied her father and brothers).

No one ever said this was an excuse or justification. This is a causal factor, and also IMPLICITLY points to another aspect of the minority experience: the inability to be perceived as an individual. White folk have the luxury to be 3-D individuals and unrepresentative of their ethnic group: ethnics do not, and they sometimes INTERNALIZE this themselves. So the CCB who has had bad family experiences generalizes this to her ethnicity. This is neither right nor fair nor rational, but it occurs, and and one of the reasons for this is the deinvidiualization of the minority.

I'm not saying family doesn't play a part, but to use that excuse as one of the primary causes of CCB doesn't fly with me. I agree with Tojo that CCB is in it's own ways a social phenomenon; one that's far-reaching in scope with causes that are far too numerous and complicated to reduce to a few simple stereotypes.

Neither I nor any of the more insightful member here have EVER reduced it to a few simple stereotypes. I have discussed AT LENGTH in MANY threads the causes of IR disparity, fetishization, desexualization, etc. There are both INTERNAL and EXTERNAL causative factors, both INDIVDIUAL and COLLECTIVE causative factors, there are feedback loops, there are cultural, biological, economic, political, sexual, psychological, systems, etc. phenomena to be considered. The complexity of causation was NEVER at issue. What was at issue was the ability to appreciate this complexity and NOT reduce complex phenomena to simple absolute causes.

The disagreement between Tojo and I occurred in HOW to reconcile your sister being a CCB. I said, simply, that the CCB should not be hated because the causes ARE COMPLEX, and if your sister was one, that complexity would be appreciated, which evidently, you do.

But whereas you and Tojo seem to simply accept this conflict within yourselves (hate the collective, love/ accept the individual/ close relations), I am saying there is a better way which does not leave you politically/ morally exposed.

[Heyyu]

Actually Dialectic, I agree with everything you said. And I know you don't reduce the causes of CCB to a few simple stereotypes since I've read a lot of your articles.

I think you're thinking that I'm thinking that I'm trying to pin the blame on you for that stereotype, which I'm definitely not :P

In fact, I'm not attacking anyone in this thread and I believe everyone has made some interesting points and observations. Since this thread, which you wrote a few months, does make mention about that "traditional distant Asian family" stereotype.

So again, I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm attacking the stereotype itself. In other words, I'm isolating that stereotype and taking it out and trying to show it's inherent fallacies. Because I've seen that stereotype bandied around, not by you in this thread, but by many others. Call it one of my sore points if you will.

Again, if you thought I was "attacking" you or anybody else, that is definitely not the case. And perhaps it's my wording, which makes it seem like I'm attacking someone, when really I'm trying to discredit that theory.

[powerislife]

Generally people who are so against asian culture go through, see, or hear one thing that makes them that way. You want to fix things? Try to have an intervention, like people do when their friends are on drugs.

[ThatsJustSick]

Wow, after reading through all this in one sitting, I have to say my brain is fried right now. So I'll cut to the chase:

I have a sister who's a CCB. But I don't hate her for that. Yet I'm still against CCB's. Hypocritical? Perhaps. How to solve this conundrum? You don't, you just accept it.

However, I have to point out something I don't agree with in this thread: the excuse that since an AF grew up in a "traditional" Asian family with typical backward attitudes towards women (i.e. emotionally-distant father or brothers who treated her like crap). So therefore, that pushed her to only date WM and loathe AM (since they embodied her father and brothers).

But I know plenty of white females who had crappy-ass misogynist fathers who were never there for them and even abused them. So using that logic, shouldn't all emotionally-abused WF's quit dating their own race as well? But yet, they still grow up to date WM nonetheless. And I know plenty of black females and Hispanic females who had bad fathers yet many still dated black men and Hispanic men.

I'm not saying family doesn't play a part, but to use that excuse as one of the primary causes of CCB doesn't fly with me. I agree with Tojo that CCB is in it's own ways a social phenomenon; one that's far-reaching in scope with causes that are far too numerous and complicated to reduce to a few simple stereotypes.

Accept a CCB? Never! My sister dated a white guy too. My jaw dropped as soon as she told me. I was disgusted. I was in disbelief. It took her 5 minutes to really convince that she wasn't playing a joke with me. Then I called him a Nazi. Man that was fun. They continued to date for half a year. I didn't say anything meanwhile. I just stayed away from her and her boyfriend. I didn't really ostracize her. I just choose avoid her as much as possible. But as soon as they broke up, I started my psychological conditioning. I call her CCB friends sellouts and made fun of them. Convinced her how they are racist against their own kind. Told her about this one incident in the library about a repressive white man not allowing his mail order bride to read whatever she wanted [she had to bring the book to him and ask him for permission to read the book]. Brought instances where her white boyfriend was insensitive to asians with his remarks and how I took great offense to it. I told her good riddance to her white boyfriend and reminded her how cool her chinese ex was.

Its those kind of reinforcements that fight CCBism. She never dated a white guy again. I never disowned my sister for dating him. I still was compassionate towards her. However, I made it clear my disgust for him won't compromise my love for her. I still treated her normally. Only gave her a hard time about her BF.

But the war on CCBism must be fought on multiple fronts. This is only one battle that I've won. I would elaborate but I think it would be better served on a new thread. I'm too lazy, someone start it up!

[Dialectic]

Ha ha ha, while I appreciate the spirit, you're fuckin' crazy :D

[ThatsJustSick]

Me?.... Crazy?!? Maybe... but at least she's not dating that white guy anymore. I have nothing against the white race. It's just that I believe their infatuation with my asian sisters stem from stereotypical views of the asian race: Submissive, subservient, homemakers that are dying for a white guy to sweep them off their feet and make love to them like the little sex slaves they were grown up to be. That in addition to the exploitation that my asian sisters have endured by the white man; mail order brides, sex tourism (including pedophillic ones), etc.

[KeJia Sista]

But I know plenty of white females who had crappy-ass misogynist fathers who were never there for them and even abused them. So using that logic, shouldn't all emotionally-abused WF's quit dating their own race as well? But yet, they still grow up to date WM nonetheless. And I know plenty of black females and Hispanic females who had bad fathers yet many still dated black men and Hispanic men.

I'm not saying family doesn't play a part, but to use that excuse as one of the primary causes of CCB doesn't fly with me. I agree with Tojo that CCB is in it's own ways a social phenomenon; one that's far-reaching in scope with causes that are far too numerous and complicated to reduce to a few simple stereotypes.

I've heard many W/F on A/M sites who have had abuse problems with male relatives or former husbands/lovers. They envision Asian men as a caring, sensitive, family-oriented alternative to their brutish men.

Ke Jia

[KeJia Sista]

I told Yellow Peril the best thing is for his nephew to love him more than anyone else around, to emulate him, and restore the family honor.

Miss you, Yellow. Holla at your girl sometime.

Ke Jia

[Secret Asian Man]

CCB-that word just sums up every female under 21 years old in my family(that lives in the usa) except 2, they are my favorite :D

sounds mean but i just dont consider them related to me anymore :x they're just aquantinces(sp?) now.