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Dialectic
Jun 7th, 2004, 02:41 AM
Please read this thread only if you have already read the thread titled Our "Integral" Vision, Theory, and Practice under the Declarations of Intent.

This is for those of you who, on reading the aforementioned thread, maybe thinking to yourselves, "hmm ... this bastard's trying to sound smart but in the end Integral Theory and Practice and Spiral Dynamics are just another system of organization that is structured, rigid, hierarchical, and modernist."

I would like to emphasize that this is not the case.

What Postmodern/Poststructuralism (PM/PS) tells us is that that there are no universals, but instead complex chains and webs of interdependent signifiers/signifieds. What many of its propoents fail to see, or at least studiously ignore or just vaguely acknowledge, is that this is IN ITSELF a rather insidious universal. Its essential statement can be summarized thus: "My stance that 'no stance is better than any other stance' is better." And this MAKES Postmodernism hierarchical, undermining itself.

On the positive side, it IS better than absolute stances, in that it embodies a wider, deeper, more inclusive truth than early/traditional/Renaissance rationality. It is capable of taking on more points of view than traditional rationality and acknowledges that certain conceptual structures and hierarchies are either inappropriate or destructive in certain contexts. Indeed, it acknowledges the existence of a subject, of a signifier and signified, and thus has more depth than traditional rationality but does not negate traditional rationality's positive contributions of scientific/analytical method. In other words, it transcends traditional rationality. Thus we can say it has a HOLARCHICAL relationship with traditional modes of rationality: it transcends and includes early rationality by preserving its healthier, positive aspects while negating its pathologies (metanarratives, dominator hierarchies, culturally contextual "absolutisms," etc.).

Postmodernism TRIES to acknowledge all stances, with the implicit assumption that the postmodernist poststructuralist stance is better, or more inclusive, or less egocentric, or more rational. All postmodern poststructuralist arguments are extremely rational; we say, therefore, that they transcend traditional rationality by preserving its healthy or positive aspects and negating its limited or pathological potentials (for example, White supremacists trying to form rational arguments on how Whites are intrinsically superior to other "races").

An avoidance, for example, of strict definition, indeed a charge that absolute definition does not exist, is a constant guard against reification of abstract patterns/analyses which are influenced by imperial or metanarrative bias. This is Postmodernism's great contribution to the world: it SENSITIZES people to contextuality and relativism. Dominator hierarchies ARE bad. Many truths ARE culturally contextual. Subjective analyses ARE important.

On the negative side, the more complex the cognitive/moral realm, the more complex its pathologies. And Postmodernism has bred, particularly in the Boomer and Boomer Echo generations, an intense pathological narcisissm. If all truths are relative, if I'm permitted, indeed encouraged, to celebrate my problems and uniqueness without limit, then I can pick any arbitrary cognitive/moral position I want because it's "all good" and there are no value distinctions. PM/PS risks getting stuck or bogged down in great messy heaps, because it resists ALL conceptual structures that look like hierarchies, including holarchies. As we have discussed, we use the term holarchy because higher levels DO NOT dominate lower levels. They transcend and include, the very opposite of imperialism and domination. PM/PS, however, does not acknowledge the existence of the holarchy. Because of this, everything grinds to a halt in what I would say is generally a pluralistic mess, where everything is devoid of value and ranking, except for the ultimate value/ranking that says everything is devoid of it. Hardly a stable or healthy position.

And this is where Postmodern Poststructuralism seems to be stuck. Because categorization is viewed as an aspect of Western imperialistic science, almost all categorization outside of the hard and systems sciences is avoided, with some detrimental effects. The baby is thrown out with the bathwater, so to speak.

It is also ironic that despite the intense suspicion of Western motives and ideas that PM/PS fosters, Postmodernism ORIGINATED in the West. To this day it has a significant presence ONLY in the West, with some notable exceptions in Japan, the most Western-influenced Asian country. We must remember that Postmodernism transcended and negated the pathological ethnocentrism and logocentrism of early rationality, but it did NOT negate rationality itself. It is still a wholly rational conceptual tool, but it recognizes the contextual legitimacy of irrationality, something traditional rationality rallied hard against.

What I want to emphasize, then, is that Spiral Dynamics is NOT Marx's "universalizing metanarrative." It is NOT "the unfolding of a rational system of world history [as] simply a negative form of the history of European imperialism" (Young, some Postmodernist dude). It is an "integral" conceptual tool that TRANSCENDS Postmodern Poststructuralism: it preserves PM/PS's sensitivity to relative contexts while it negates its pathological narcissism and inability to reach meaningful conclusions. Spiral Dynamics recognizes the legitimacy of magical, mythic, early rational, and postmodern worldviews, and fights for the preservation of ALL of them so that the entire holarchy remains healthy. This is something that NONE of the aforementioned "levels" do. In this way, some cognitive/moral stances ARE "higher" or "better" than others, because each encompasses MORE of reality.

If you do not accept this, then I contend you end up with a big mess of nothing. "Ha! I've deconstucted your argument! I've deconstructed your identity! I've deconstructed your worldview!" What then?

My intention is not to reify Spiral Dynamics, nor is it to reify essentialist or strongly defined notions of cognitive/moral devlopment, given the infinite fluidity of identity categories. It is, however, extremely useful in identifying aspects of value and cognitive development in humans and human groups, and is backed by extensive cross-cultural research. All humans studied have thus far developed broadly along the
survivalist-magic-mythic-rational-postmodern sequence, regardless of gender or culture.

Integral theory and practice and Spiral Dynamics, then, attempt to integrate all the various cognitive and moral levels/lines/states/types of development into some coherent vision. From heavily ethnocentric/mythic viewpoints, to the mythic-rational, to the early rational, and then the postmodern poststructuralist viewpoints and hopefully beyond, without dominating or oppressing any.

Academia is so steeped in PM/PS that it will at best not acknowledge, and at worst viciously attack anything that transcends PM/PS, most likely mistaking it for some form of modernism that came before. The reason for this is that in Spiral Dynamics, hierarchical structures SEEM to RETURN, albeit in a different, SENSITIZED (the contribution of PM/PS), transcendent (ie. holarchical) form.

Please check out www.integralinstitute.org and the works of Ken Wilber and Don Beck for more.

blockthebox
Jun 7th, 2004, 04:19 AM
Integral theory and practice and Spiral Dynamics, then, attempt to integrate all the various cognitive and moral levels/lines/states/types of development into some coherent vision. From heavily ethnocentric/mythic viewpoints, to the mythic-rational, to the early rational, and then the postmodern poststructuralist viewpoints and hopefully beyond, without dominating or oppressing any.

Does this mean NOT making any value judgments about the various stances/viewpoints? The distinction between integral theory/spiral dynamics and "it's all good" poststructuralism then is that the former "integrates" while the latter doesn't recognize any viewpoint as better than another (to put it crudely). With these "opposites", don't we just end up with the same conclusion?

Dialectic
Jun 7th, 2004, 04:34 AM
ITP/SD actually MAKES value judgments on the various levels/lines/states of the "Spiral."

It RECOGNIZES the necessity of every level, acknowledges that all people/groups of people start from square one (Beige) and must therefore progress through the levels, and distinguishes between "healthy" and "pathological" manifestations of every level. It ALSO understands that each "higher" level is wider and MORE inclusive than the last, making it less egocentric, more compassionate, more insightful, and thus BETTER.

PM/PS (Green level or "centre-of-gravity") tries not to make value judgments (except the implicit one that says "no betterness is better") and recognizes no hierarchy/holarchies; indeed it does not distinguish them (nor do any other First Tier v-memes).

Higher, wider, more inclusive is better. It's better to be "Blue" than "Red," better to be "Green" than "Orange," better to be "Coral" than "Turquoise," you get the picture.

It's not that "Integral awareness" does not judge higher and lower, it's that we do NOT dominate or oppress higher or lower levels.

blockthebox
Jun 7th, 2004, 04:44 AM
So, are "meaningful conclusions" recognizing within this holarchy, that there are better levels but that we shouldn't oppress lower/higher levels?

Also, lower levels shouldn't be oppressed because they're a part of/integral to the spiral?

They should be oppressed, Goddammit.

Addendum: I guess what I'm saying (and I realize this goes against what the theory seems to stand for) is that wouldn't you have a better spiral if you eliminated certain lower levels - not all of them, but just some of them?

Dialectic
Jun 7th, 2004, 05:05 AM
I don't want to simplify the "meaningful conclusions" put forth by SD/ITP, because they are many and manifold. The concept of a "holon" itself is quite deep and holds several very important implications about simulteanous whole/part existence, most of which I am not familiar enough with to explain in great detail.

An "integral" view does, however, recognize 1) the importance and necessity of all levels within the holarchy (even if it does not use this particular conceptual framework); 2) better or more inclusive/insightful levels; and 3) that no lower or higher level should be oppressed OR allowed to dominate others.

If, for example, you oppress Blue (mythic-membership/ ethnocentric values and behavior, eg. "I am American," "I am Christian," "Chinese is superior," etc.), what happens to all those people at a Red (tribal/ family-based systems) level? Where can they go? They CAN'T go to Blue 'cause you try to destroy it wherever you see it, and it is impossible for them to "skip" to Orange rationality. They are too egocentric and incapable of even base-level Renaissance-style rationality. They first need to belong to a wider and more inclusive whole.

If you oppress Orange (base rationality, eg. early Adam Smith-style "invisible hand" capitalism), where can Blue go? It cannot just "jump" to Green Postmodern/Poststructuralism. It has to learn simple rationality first.

So in the above cases, Red and Blue just go pathological. They withdraw "into" themselves and just go nuts with existing ethnocentricity. Then they try to dominate/oppress all higher and lower levels, and the Spiral becomes very unstable (Pathological Blue Nazis, for example). Ya get me?

blockthebox
Jun 7th, 2004, 05:15 AM
Grudgingly : )

I guess a part of me doesn't believe that most Blues can become Orange.

Dialectic
Jun 7th, 2004, 05:48 AM
The "Centre-of-Gravity" of America is, I would say, "Bluish-Orange," in that the general population exhibits "mythic-rational" behavior.

This means that while strong Blue behavior remains in place ("America is the best." "Christianity is right." "We have a manifest destiny."), rationality is used as much as possible to justify mythic and higher thought and behavior. This year's political campaigns, for example, rarely lie about facts: they simply put forth factual/rational arguments which exhibit a biased partiality. The reasoning itself is not flawed, but it is often missing some key information which would result in a healthier, more integrated conclusion.

The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights can be viewed as a "Pacer of Change," in that it DEMANDS that its citizens be capable of Orange-level rational behavior. Therein lies its genius: its makers obviously KNEW that the majority of the population at that point (and of course now) was heavy Red or Blue, yet they put something in place that would always encourage Orange-level action and the beginning of "worldcentric" reasoning. This has not always been executed properly, but it exerts pressure on U.S. citizens to at least try (or appear) to be rational beings. The current result is a mix of mythic and rational values and worldviews.

Dialectic
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:12 PM
I am very well aware that Wilber is not the only philosopher out there, nor do I wish to seem as though I am basing all of my conclusions and theory/ practice exclusively on his works (the same, incidentally, he uses the work of Jurgen Habermas, for example, but discusses in his introduction to SES how that is simply convenient). Aside from the philosophers, thinkers, and teachers I have read, I had come to a few similar conclusions on my own, though they were of course not nearly as formalized or developed as they are in the ITP.

The reason why I (and Sothy, and a great many others in the world) feel so strongly about the appropriateness of his work (and the work of what he would call "Integralists" in general, though I have no intention of "reifying" or absolutizing his work) is that it resolves a great many issues, contradictions, and questions which had been simmering in my mind for some time. Every single non-trivial conversation Sothy and I have had over the ten years we have known each other, for example, particularly those in our four years at college, could have been clarified, enriched, and at least somewhat resolved by the ITP.

Dialectic
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:19 PM
And, Bartleby, following your line of reasoning in another thread, if we were to view ITP as a wide-encompassing method of conducting one's life and shaping one's awareness, views, beliefs, and practices, then we would actually be undermining ourselves if we were to adopt non-Integral methods and tools because there would most certainly be fundamental differences between these methods and tools, and as they do not point to the same deep (and therefore universal) insights, I'd better just stick to one, see where it takes me, and hope I get somewhere with it.

(Of course, the difference between Integral and non-Integral methods is that "sticking to Integral" means something entirely different and more encompassing than sticking to non-Integral.)

Taliesin Stormheller
Dec 3rd, 2004, 08:55 PM
Right on, Dialectic. I, too, am sick and tired of those gayass liberals and their 'everything is equal/everything is valued therefore nothing is valued' crap. Spiral Dynamics is pretty good- on a sociological level.
I totally agree that we can't oppress any of the levels. However, moral systems that help to draw people up to higher levels are definitely good for society. I'm still tryin' to work my way up from red here :P
Some good ideas to add onto our philosophy are Thelema (Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law/ Love is the law, love under will) and Ayn Rand's Objectivism. Also, we need to add some justification for our ass kickin' attitude. That just rocks. Who the hell CARES about 'pure Integral' or shit like that? Whatever works is the best. Do not be a stupid sit-around-on-your-ass philosopher. DO something.

evil_FUX
Dec 3rd, 2004, 09:42 PM
Heh, I can see you really hit all the Ken Wilber buzzwords in that first post of yours D.

Dialectic
Dec 3rd, 2004, 09:53 PM
It can't really be helped. I'm trying to condense as much meaning into as few words as possible, so you ultimately end up using similar terminology.

Subversive
Dec 14th, 2004, 01:22 AM
Wassup D!

You're spoutin' some heavy shit, but good shit. Like the kind of shit you have when you've eaten alot of ruffage. But I digress...

I'm diggin' Integral. Like you, it brings together a lot of the nagging questions I've had for a long time. Without its concepts, I generally only lumped my understanding into a few simple ideas, self awareness, awareness of others, spirituality and principle and general knowledge. Having read Wilber's TOE these concepts just happen to crystallize and put into words these terms that I couldn't explain to anyone else. A caveat for the following, forgive the bad grammar and spelling... its rushed....

Anyhow, I've hit a roadblock here with Integral. I'm trying to fathom a solution for the future of the environment. Wilber talks about technological maturity and the need for an equally mature social consciousness for there to be any hope of saving the world. Great... HOW? (I'm just diggin' into SES, so tell me to keep reading if Wilber starts to address this stuff in there)

Fact: we live in a global economy where advanced technology is available to people who aren't ready for the technology. Some specific examples: at home, urban sprawl; abroad, industrial age super-pollution and rampant deforestation.

If, as Wilber says, we have to let everyone develop at their own pace, create a global system of political management based on the recognition of each level of development, how do we accelerate this SD to catch up with the technology that's already out there for everyone to use?

It seems that the world, from purple to orange (something like 80% of the world?) is going to consume everything that exists before they ever reach a stage of consciousness where we/they can actually make informed socially conscious choices that will save the planet and ultimately ourselves.

There's a timeline that we should all be aware of. Its a theory that I still need to read more into.... It is a theory concerning the greenhouse gasses trapped in the permafrost. The father of a friend of mine works for Environment Canada and talks about this 'time bomb' that seems to be generally ignored by media.

It is a fact that the permafrost holds a significant amount of greenhouse gasses. The theory is that at a certain temperature the permafrost melts and ALL of these greenhouse gasses get released in a short period of time. It won't be a slow predictable rise in greenhouse gasses emitted by industry and cars, but rather an exponential one caused by these latent pre-existing gasses (triggered by the slow warming from industry and automobile pollution).

What I've seen from Wilber is a fantastic structure/categorization of the 4 quadrants of development for any given topic. This structure identifies developmental imbalances in a given scenario and allows us to recognize these shortcomings.

This well organized classification system is alot like the best of what management consultants have to offer. Some of my friends have worked for Bain, Mckinsey, and some of those other hoity-toity management consulting firms. These guys are both brilliant and idiots all at the same time (brilliant idiots! hahaha). There is a specific technique that these consultants use: they find a starting point (the problem), then pick a conclusion (best guestimate of desired outcome), and then look for all evidence that will support this predisposed outcome. They build models upon models, and make it airtight to prodding and/or questioning. But sometimes they miss, and fuck, don't even bother to ask them to implement what they talk about, cuz they don't know how. Despite the sensitivity that Wilber displays, every now and then, I get a whiff of management-consultant speak.

So the question I lay down is: Is Integral Theory only useful on an infinite timeline? If we put a deadline on development and change, does Integral Theory get us there faster? How? How do we prevent people from consuming the world before they're mature enough to decide how not to consume it?

Is the only solution to be not just Turqoise (or higher), but to also have the power, money, and influence to put in place global social structures to cope with the technology and other right hand side influences? How can this need for preventing the masses from consuming the world be combined with Spiral Development? No lower colour will willingly change their habits (other than to use the latest technology to get what they want, at the cost of our beautiful world).

Subversive
Dec 23rd, 2004, 02:37 AM
Some more half-baked thoughts that I need to lay to bare... I've just been to integralnaked.org... Now this forum may not be the final word in all things Integral, but it has some good support from the proponents of ITP.

There is this particular thread that talks about 'examples of application' < http://integralnaked.org/forum/tm.asp?m=22468&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1 >.

So far, I see a trend. Note that I'm still just now working my way though SES, but I'm coming to a feel for some of the assumptions and limitations that Integral Theory may suffer from. I'm specifically referring to ITP in real world applications not theoretical classification.


Implied Assumptions that I see:

Assumption 1: There are enough resources in the world such that an integral approach can benefit all parties involved wherein each party can negotiate an acceptable non-zero sum relationship in any given situation.

Assumption 2: In ITP, one has the ability to influence all parties/things involved to balance the 4 quadrants. Implementers have the proper influence / ablility-to-organize such that Assumption 1 can hold true.

Assumption 3: ITP, when all 4 quadrants are balanced, maximises the benefits for all parties involved (monetarily, socially, ethically, karmic)

Limitations (in my opinion):

Limitation 1: ITP can only be effective up to a certain scale of project/implementation, wherein the above assumptions can hold true. Saving the environment is outside of the scope of ITP (limited resources, impossible to resolve conflicting national interests/developmental stage).

Limitation 2: ITP places value on compassion and moral/ethical maturity. At the same time Wilber recognises that the world is currently mostly inconsiderate and egocentric, thus preventing ITP from working at a societal/nationalistic/global scale

Other questions I have... Is ITP really a roadmap of human development, rather than a construct for accelerating human development? If it is indeed mainly an individualistic excercise of meditation, compassion, and sharing, is it really just Buddhism reworded?

That's all for now....

S.

Dialectic
Dec 23rd, 2004, 02:52 AM
Whassup subversive,

I'll address your concerns more thoroughly when I have more time. A brief thought:

I'm not certain your approach to ITP is entirely appropriate (I'm not certain "appropriate" is the right word, either). ITP is neither a definitive map for human development (though it incorporates this), nor does it make any intrinsic assumptions about global resources, nor does it have the ability to "influence" things (it is a conceptual tool, not an organism or system with abilities), nor can a "timeline" be applied to it. It is not a method or plan of action per se: it is a conceptual tool which incorporates a type of inclusive and balanced thoughts and practices.

With regard to your concern that it appears to be a management consultant type of approach, I think that after you delve further into SES, this fear will be dispelled. Theory of Everything may seem that way, but it is intentionally brief and simple; SES is anything but.