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Dialectic
May 29th, 2004, 03:40 AM
Whassup y'all,

A lot of folks have asked us how we can be such intelligent, compassionate people and at the same time say shit like "cracka-chasin' bitch" and "dumbass muthafucka" without any qualms.

Some people have called it "intellectual slippage" and "regression." How can folks who are fairly well-developed at a moral and intellectual level make jokes or aggressively-presented observations with a seemingly racist, sexist, or otherwise offensive bent?

A warning: I'm going to be operating at a fairly high geek level here, and this is pretty long, so enter at your own risk and see if you can figure out whassup.

I want to discuss the relevance of Ken Wilber's "Integral Theory and Practice" along with Don Beck's "Spiral Dynamics."

With regard to moral and cognitive development, I wish to speak about a very useful conceptual tool called "Spiral Dynamics" developed by Don Beck and whose greatest proponents include Ken Wilber and Clare Graves. Much of this research, up to "formal-operational consciousness" (ie. rational, logical, and worldcentric cognition) is also backed up by that of Jurgen Habermas (a very well-respected Critical Theorist). Ken Wilber, incidentally, is one of the most well-read "philosophers" alive (he's much more than what that word implies), and for what it's worth, Deepak Chopra (the renowned spiritual M.D. considered one of Time Magazine's "most influential people of the century") considers him his mentor in spiritual and cognitive development. Wilber discusses, among many other things, some of which I will only touch on briefly here, the development of cognition in individuals and groups.

"Spiral Dynamics," then, is a very useful tool with which we may describe the "stages" of development of awareness and values in both individuals and groups. I will attempt to give a very simple summary. Infants and prehistoric humans, for example, may be described as being on Level 1 (Beige "value set" or "v-meme") of the "Spiral of Development": they have not differentiated an individual "self" from surroundings, they operate completely instinctually, and they operate at a maximum level of egocentricity in the classical sense ("Everything is 'I' because 'I' is undifferentiated from everything). When they move to Level 2 (Purple "v-meme"), an individual self is recognized, and "magical" structures of consciousness begin to form: here, simple gods and rituals begin to develop and inanimate objects, as well as natural processes are seen to have personalities and motives. Astrology, raindances, loose tribes, and lucky charms begin to develop. At Level 3 (Red), tribal structures are solidified and maximum egocentricity gives way to a very strong ethnocentricity. Family, blood relations, and close geographical relationships are central. At Level 4 (Blue), "mythic membership" begins to develop: social structures are developed beyond tribes and related bloodlines, strong feelings of loyalty and membership develop toward the dominant religion/state (which have yet to be differentiated). At Level 5 (Orange), rationality develops, and with it, the beginning of a "worldcentric" view. Critical reasoning and sciences flourish. At Level 6 (Green), worldcentricity is developed further and "pluralistic relativism" and "multiculturalism" come to the fore.

At this point I want to draw your attention to several things:

1) At each stage there is a lessening of egocentricity. The individual or social structure is able to take on/see more and more points of view. If an infant covers its eyes, it thinks it can't be seen, because it can't see. A young child understands, on a very basic level, that another individual has a different point of view. She begins to recognize that members of her family have different but important viewpoints which should be respected. People of unrelated families may sympathize with those who have shared beliefs, forming states. And this goes on. Each successive stage is able to integrate more people, ideas, and general diversity than the previous one.

2) Each of these stages cannot see the truth of the others. I would say, for example, that China's moral/cognitive "centre of gravity" is at Blue: that is, it is ethnocentric and espouses "mythic-membership" values and behaviour: be Chinese, be Communist, worship ancestors, be filial, love your government, etc. Though the US has a slightly higher centre of gravity (probably bluish-orange, meaning it places a greater emphasis on rationality), it is also currently exhibiting pathological Blue behaviour: I am American. I am Christian. This is my manifest destiny. People or groups move through these levels of growth, each represented by a fairly consistent set of "value-memes" (by "meme" I simply mean a set of values) and none of them can be skipped. "Blue" people must be slowly introduced to rationality to allow them to begin to approach a "worldcentric" viewpoint. They cannot tolerate, for example, Green concepts (two levels above Blue) of multiculturalism or pluralistic-relativism. Getting Blue (or Orange or Green) to grow is a very tricky thing to do, because the abovementioned memes all maintain that their viewpoints are absolute truths, and no amount of rationality, for example, can prove that Chinese aren't "superior" to Americans or non-Christians aren't going to Hell. Orange (rationality) thinks Blue (ethnocentricity) is a moron and Green (postmodernism/multiculturalism) is impotent and overly-sensitive. Green thinks Blue and Orange are ignorant and destructive. For this reason, these "levels" or "v-memes" are considered "First Tier."

3) These stages may be considered levels of a "holarchy," that is, a hierarchy with a special feature: each successive level transcends and includes the previous. By "transcending," I mean that key qualities of each level are preserved, while pathological potentials/qualities/tendencies are negated. For this reason, we do not use the term "hierarchy" because that implies domination and repression of lower levels. A holarchy is composed of "holons": a holon is defined as a simultaneous "whole/part": that is, something which may be considered a whole in itself but is at the same time part of something "greater." Each holon also has four correlated "aspects": individual-objective (atoms, chemicals, described by the traditional hard-sciences), collective-objective (described by systems sciences, ecology, autopoietic theory), individual-subjective (internal thoughts, feelings, states, and development, described by psychology and mystic practice at the human-holon level), and collective-subjective (cultural beliefs and practices, language). These form four "quadrants" all of which can be correlated with one another. For example, if I have a thought in my mind in English, it manifests an individual-subjective component as a thought; a collective-subjective component in that it is in English, and is interpreted/conveyed through shared values/behaviours/beliefs; an individual-objective component as a series of electrical currents in a neural net facilitated by my neocortex; and a collective-objective component, as it serves some objective function in the social/poltical/economic/cultural system in which I participate. Upon consideration, we realize everything is a holon.

The reason Green is considered "First Tier" is the implicit assumption Green makes that all cultures and points of view are relative and equal except its own, which holds as an absolute across all contexts. If Green, then, is transcended by the individual or group, then we arrive at "Second Tier" v-memes. Put very simply, these levels (of which Yellow is the first) are able to recognize the truths and legitimacy of each level of the spiral. Second Tier also understand that the health of the whole spiral is imperative: a healthy Beige must exist (as everyone starts at square one, or Beige) to develop into a healthy Red, then Blue, then Orange, etc. At the same time, it recognizes that no level of development should be allowed to become pathological and try to dominate any other level; if this happens, all levels are threatened. I would like to emphasize two things here:

1) When we say someone is "at" a certain level of development, this is taken to be an "average" or "mean" representation, a "centre of gravity," if you will. Most likely no one is "purely" Red or Blue or Green. Also, different lines of development can be at different levels within a holon: when describing a person, for example, psychosexually, I may be at Red; cognitively I may be at Orange; morally I may be at Blue. Also, I may experience higher level states on occasion which are not a part of my abiding awareness. These states will then be reinterpreted through whatever "colour" lens my centre of gravity is at. The term "spiral" of development, rather than "ladder" or "stairway" is used to emphasize the fact that development does not occur in a linear and orderly fashion: there are levels, lines, states, and directions to be considered.

2) We may classify these levels or v-memes as "Pre-rational," (Beige, Purple, Red, Blue), "Rational" (Orange, Green), and "Transrational" (Second Tier). We must be careful, then, not to commit the "Pre/Trans" fallacy: this means that from a rational viewpoint, pre-rational ideas, attitudes, and behaviours can resemble transrational and vice versa. Romantics, for example, elevate the infant state and nature-worship of primitive tribes to transrational status: they are one with God, nature, naturally balanced, homeostatic, etc. It has been proven across numerous anthropological and devlopmental studies that babies and tribes have high levels of ego/ethnocentrism that cannot be considered "divine" or "one with God." Extreme peace protestors, on the other hand, regard all military actions as imperialistic, insensitive, insupportable and generally evil. Yet unlike what Dr. King thought, violence does not always beget more violence. It took WWII to end Auschwitz; you don't lie down in front of a Nazi tank or a KKK militia and expect to succeed. Rather, we can say violence used in saner and more developed hands serves a healthy purpose; violence used by those at similar levels of development begets more violence. In other words, transrational awareness recognizes "better" or "healthier" or "higher" states of integration, inclusiveness, and development. And it may take actions that resemble pre-rational states when viewed from a rational level.

I hope whoever was insane enough to start reading this is still with me because I know this is really long and hard to take in if you're not in the mode. I can understand if you're inclined to drop out of this discussion, if you haven't already.

Now I'd like to return to the issue of "intellectual slippage." After considerable contemplation and observation, I can say with confidence that I am at an early Second-Tier level of development, but with regressive tendencies, mostly along aggression/assertiveness lines. It makes sense to say, then, that issues concerning sexual and racial dynamics have a high potential to bring hostility and generally very strong feelings out of me.

Given my current level of insight, I propose that one (or possibly a mixture) of four things may be occurring:

1) These racially, sexually, and intellectually offensive quips may be Second-Tier behaviour, in that they may serve to promote the health of holons in the spiral by shocking people out of whatever standard First-Tier activity/thought-process in which they are engaged.

2) They may signify a pure regression along the Spiral of development

3) They may signify a "holistic" or "integral" regression along the Spiral of development. This means that because certain lines of my development have been retarded (eg. aggressive/assertive experience), they must be explored and experienced to the extent that I have received "my fill" of that level and can move on. This then, would make pre-conventional thoughts, comments, and behaviour "necessary" for further growth and integration.

4) They may signify a pathological narcissistic "reactivation" of a lower meme. This happens most often at Green, where a person, trapped in a fully relative world of contexts and values, determines that since no value is "better" or "worse," an adoption of ANY value is acceptable. I therefore use Green logic and rationality and my adherence to pluralistic relativism to justify Purple, Red, Blue, or Orange behaviour. Because it's "all good."

I would say that our talking smack at the Fighting44s is partially due to reason (1). We want to draw people in from a Blue level of ethnocentric loyalty and passion, and then help them grow. It is also partially (3): some of us just gotta get shit out of our systems.

I'd like to make a final point. It is important to recognize, whenever we encounter any thought or concept, what level the speaker is speaking from, and what level they are describing. Freud, for example, uses Orange-level analysis on Red-level phenomena, which he takes to be the fundamental level of human operation (sexual-instinctual). Integral Theory and Practice, along with its discussion of Spiral Dynamics, and any of its applications, is clearly a Yellow-level concept or higher (Second Tier). I am hopefully a weak or starting Yellow; I think, therefore, that my presentation is largely clear and accurate. The next thing to consider is the level of the person to whom this is being explained. I believe that most of you who have read this far are Second Tier or approaching it, with various lines of development that are "retarded" or regressive, as well as those which are highly-advanced. I say this, because ITP, like any other conceptual tool, can be misused and misinterpreted very easily by anyone at any First Tier level of development.

So I ask all of you, if you've made it this far, to consider what I've said with an open mind and hopefully some productive discussions will come out of our understanding of these concepts.

Dialectic
May 29th, 2004, 03:47 AM
When I briefly discussed Spiral Dynamics with Tojo a few months ago, he mentioned how it was regrettable that people such as Beck or Wilber had to "dumb down" or "popularize" behavioral systems theory by using colors.

While a "popularization" was probably a consideration, its intention was not to "dumb down" the concept so much as to create stronger feelings in its application. I am aware of two reasons colors are used:

1) Spiral Dynamics is very useful in racial education. Rather than viewing someone as "Black" or "White" or "Brown" or "Red" or "Yellow" (though Yellow is applied to Second Tier in a non-derogatory fashion, and transcendent integration STARTS with Yellow, biatch!), someone familiar with the basics of the Spiral is now able to view a potential friend, adversary, or acquaintance as "Centre of gravity Blue" or "Centre of gravity Orange," etc. This removes the skin-colour focus in a concrete and relatively "unartificial" way by enabling a deeper understanding of the person's views and motives.

2) The colors roughly alternate between cool and warm: Beige (neither, really, but kind of warm), Purple (cool), Red (warm), Blue (cool), Orange (warm), Green (cool), Yellow (warm), Turqoise (cool), etc. (colours, as far as I know, aren't really applied after Turquoise).

This is done to emphasize the individualistic ("agentive") or collective ("communal") nature of each stage. Warm is more individual-oriented, cool is more collective-oriented. Each level would have to be discussed at length to understand why each is considered more agentive or communal; in general, while one level tends to emphasize one orientation, the next level emphasizes the other; in this way there is a "natural" healthy balance between agency and communion, so if someone progresses healthily through the Spiral, he/she is not likely to exhibit hyperagency (extreme indivdualistic behaviour, a pathological tendency prevalent in males) or hypercommunion (extreme collectivist behaviour, a pathological tendency prevalent in females).

Finally, we must understand that an integrative or "integral" approach does not limit itself to behavioral systems theory; rather, it must acknowledge and integrate all four aspects or "quadrants" of a holon (individual-subjective, collective-subjective, individual-objective, collective-objective) along all developmental lines (moral, cognitive, emotional, physical, psycho-sexual, mathematical, artistic, etc.) to effect comprehensive analysis and healthy change.

Autopoietic Theory, for example, developed by Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela, which discusses self-organizing systems and "second-order cybernetics" deals mostly with the collective-objective and individual-objective quadrants ("The True") and has little to say about to say, for example, about culture (collective-subjective; "The Good") or art (individual-subjective; "The Beautiful"). Again, this is a simplification, but based on my own understanding and Wilber's analysis, I think it's an accurate description. In this way, Spiral Dynamics should not be viewed as a traditional behavioural systems theory because it describes concepts such as "meaning" and interior-subjective correlates to the traditional exterior-objective processes and observations we have come to expect from the hard and systems sciences.

And I understand you all probably think I'm crazy. This and random hiphop rhymes are what keep me up at nights.

blockthebox
May 29th, 2004, 05:14 AM
As a Second Tier Turqoise myself with the occasional First Tier tendencies (e.g., when I'm drunk and/or feeling particularly dogmatic), I'll say that this is some really righteous kickass shit [said in my most regressive Green meme voice]!

Dialectic
May 29th, 2004, 04:06 PM
From Wilber's Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality, revised edition, 513-14:

As Hegel explained in his Lectures on the Philosophy of History: "That the history of the world, with all the changing scenes which its annals present, is this process of development and the realization of Spirit - only this insight can reconcile Spirit with the history of the world - that what has happened, and is happening every day, is not only not 'without God,' but is essentially God's work" (which is precisely why "that which one can deviate from is not the true Tao").

Each stage of development (or evolution) is thus Spirit's knowledge of itself through the structures (and limitations) of that stage. each stage is therefore a thesis (Fichte, Hegel) that eventually runs into its own limitations (Fichte: antithesis; Hegel: contradictions; Schelling: checking forces), which triggers a self-transcendence to a new synthesis (Fichte, Hegel; Schelling: organic unity), which both negates and preserves its predecessor (Schelling, Hegel). This dialectic, of course, is Eros, or Spirit-in-action, the drive of Spirit to unfold itself more fully and thus unify itself more fully.

[Back to me.] What the man is basically saying is that Dialectic the Stealth M.C. kicks enormous amounts of ass and also that the Fighting44s KNOW whassup.

Oh and to make sure no one gets the wrong idea about what we mean by Spirit (or God or Tao), we are talking about the nondual groundless ground of awareness, which is timeless, placeless, and inexpressable, but simultaneously manifests and knows itself as duality/plurality, time, and the endless gates and wonders of the self-organizing evolving universe.

Scowl
Jun 26th, 2004, 10:13 AM
So I ask all of you, if you've made it this far, to consider what I've said with an open mind and hopefully some productive discussions will come out of our understanding of these concepts.

Can you suggest any good resources for learning more about this? Or is it just two books that I have to buy?

Dialectic
Jun 26th, 2004, 12:18 PM
We link to www.integralinstitute.org, which gives a good introduction to Integral projects and online development.

I also recommend going to the Shambhala (Wilber's publisher) website and finding the Wilber section.

Finally, I would recommend the following books:

Theory of Everything (good overall introduction)
Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality (huge book; just finished it, still reading the endnotes, and essential for understanding ITP)
Integral Psychology (haven't read it yet but I will very soon)

Also, the works of Don Beck, Clare Graves, Jurgen Habermas, Schelling, and Plotinus seem to be pretty sweet.

Anarchrist
Jul 29th, 2004, 05:48 AM
Wow, that was thoroughly brain melting. Y'know, answers to this shit has been aching my soul for the entire summer. I should've known I'd find it at the 44. Up until now, I've been reading Foucault, and it's been skull-fucking my mind into fragments. Thanks Dialectic, I shall go on to the next forum now as well as those book selections you mentioned.

Dialectic
Jul 29th, 2004, 05:56 AM
Wilber makes extensive reference to Foucault, and my impression is that one must be careful reading him: first, we have to differentiate between the earlier and later Foucault, as he himself saw instabilities in his "archaeology." Secondly, endlessly sliding signifiers, or infinite depth up and down, or "holonic space" must be approached with open insight, or we risk slipping into pathological narcissistic post-structuralism.

Anarchrist
Jul 29th, 2004, 06:09 AM
Wilber makes extensive reference to Foucault, and my impression is that one must be careful reading him: first, we have to differentiate between the earlier and later Foucault, as he himself saw instabilities in his "archaeology." Secondly, endlessly sliding signifiers, or infinite depth up and down, or "holonic space" must be approached with open insight, or we risk slipping into pathological narcissistic post-structuralism.
Which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. In fact, want interests me most is the relationship between postmodernist nihilist philosophy and Taoism. Two things I intuitively related but can now see plainly as an area that's been bridged. My question is whether this pathological narcisism stems from dogmatic pluralistic relatavism... Kind of exercising an objective belief in the perpetual redefinition of concepts. Do I even know what the heck I'm talking about anymore?? Anyhow, you're absolutely correct about the inconsistencies in foucaults work. That deadly Brie-guzzling bastard has been getting me closer and closer to playing solitary Russian Roullette with six bullets.

Dialectic
Jul 29th, 2004, 06:24 AM
That's EXACTLY what the narcissism stems from. I can take any stance I please, because they are all equally good, valid, and I can deconstruct whatever you throw at me.

This "dogmatic pluralistic relativism," as you put it, can be traced back to Jean-Francois Lyotard's universal skepticism toward metanarrative.

The instability here is of course the universality of the skepticism, making it another metanarrative, and thus undermining itself.

I'm in the midst of putting together some notes for my definitive statement on postmodernism ('cause a buddy of mine who just got his Ph.D., along with his supervisor, believe "integralism" to be a modernist construct, which it is most decidedly NOT), and when I'm done it I'll post it on this forum.

Anarchrist
Jul 29th, 2004, 06:41 AM
That's EXACTLY what the narcissism stems from. I can take any stance I please, because they are all equally good, valid, and I can deconstruct whatever you throw at me.

This "dogmatic pluralistic relativism," as you put it, can be traced back to Jean-Francois Lyotard's universal skepticism toward metanarrative.

The instability here is of course the universality of the skepticism, making it another metanarrative, and thus undermining itself.

I'm in the midst of putting together some notes for my definitive statement on postmodernism ('cause a buddy of mine who just got his Ph.D., along with his supervisor, believe "integralism" to be a modernist construct, which it is most decidedly NOT), and when I'm done it I'll post it on this forum.

Whew. God, Thank you. Y'know, sometimes I think people are so indulgent with philosophy simply because we usually dont have sperm coming out of our ears. Either way, the epiphany still feels too fucking good. Incidentally, Dialectic, if you didn't plaguerize that entire goddamn post, you'd better be writing a goddamn book.

Dialectic
Jul 29th, 2004, 07:13 AM
Ha ha, thanks bro, but the book's already been written. I've said precious little that's "original" but I did write those posts without any reference in front of me, which I hope is some indication that my insight is genuine. Read Wilber's Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality, and then you'll really be blown away. I'm actually still reading the endnotes.

Dialectic
Oct 9th, 2004, 05:28 AM
For the three people who actually read this thread, I wanted to point out that I made a minor error in semantics in my original post.

I used the terms "pre-conventional," "conventional," and "post-conventional" when I referred to rough classification of First and Second-Tier memes when I should have said "pre-rational," "rational," and "transrational" (transcending conventional rationality BUT NOT negating it). The fallacy I refer to is therefore the "pre/trans fallacy," not the "pre/post fallacy."

It's been corrected in the post.