Stereotypical

[Dialectic]

I heard tight Asian chicks live only to serve
And little yellow men lack sexual nerves
Now I know you know how ridiculous this sounds
But these pervasive images abound
In the collective unconscious, ready to spring
From a wayward glance, ready to sting
Deep down inside, where weíll never let you see
Because if we did you would never let us be!
We tryiní to break down stereotypes and barriers?
Fuck it, letís build ëem up into armoured troop carriers!
Heís a dope dealer, I run a counterfeit ring
Heís got mad rhythm, Iím a kung fu king
We are here to steal your coveted jobs
Here to corrupt your beloved daughters
Here to embarrass intellectual slobs
To scare the piss out imperial fathers
Everything you feared about me was true
Better ship me to Guantanamo before I get you

That was one of the pieces I'd prepped for a 45 second slam competition. Imagine an Eminem/Ludacris type voice with some Canibus/Nas raspiness thrown in. Or maybe I'm just deluding myself.

Now in this piece I'm obviously I'm being a little sarcastic. But I want to talk a little about stereotyping.

People fucking hate stereotypes. The word itself, the concept and its implications, get a very bad rep these days. Women, Blacks, blondes, Arabs, Asians, rednecks, they all hate stereotypes.

That attitude is wrong. Stereotypes CANNOT be fought. They are a natural function of higher-level cognition. They are a GOOD thing.

A stereotype is a recognition of a perceived pattern. We could not navigate the human sphere without it. If you meet an Arab, it's a good thing to know that you probably shouldn't shake hands with your left hand. When you meet a Chinese, it's a good thing to know that you should be a little more conscious about rules of propriety and face.

This applies to both "negative" and "positive" conceptions of races, genders, sexual preferences, political stances, etc. Both will form naturally in the mind. If Asians tend to be smaller people in general, then their sexual organs will tend to be smaller as well. And you're damn right I'm gonna be more careful what I say and do if I ever find myself in a Black ghetto.

Problems arise when stereotypes are misused. They appear to be evil conceptual constructs when they are applied by a closed mind. If I meet an Asian and automatically assume she's in engineering or accounting and is humble, shy, and unopinionated, that assumption is okay. Many are this way.

If I find out that she paints, studies Classical philosophy, debates, and works out, and I still treat her or think of her as docile, submissive, and just book/number smart, then I'm a fucking moron. If I notice that Asians, especially in North America, tend to grow taller and larger than they have traditionally been portrayed and I still think their dicks are small and their pussies are extra tight, I should be killed.

Same thing with Blacks. With media coverage being what it is, coupled with their lower socio-economic status (and thus higher penchant to commit non-white collar crime), people are naturally going to be more wary around them. Even Bill Cosby made some very inflammatory comments about lower-income Blacks at an NAACP banquet (and was much funnier than I'm being here). But if you meet a Black dude who works hard at math, swims competitively, and writes poetry, then you must accept him as an individual and not continue to apply the conception of "Blacks" you have in your mind to him. If you meet enough people which contradict or deviate from the stereotype you have, then the stereotype must change.

A stereotype, then, is a convenient and necessary tool with which we may better navigate a complex world, because it is a recognition of perceived patterns. Like any tool, it can be misused. And of course it often is. This can be prevented with flexibility, an open-minded approach to existence, and a strong desire to continuously expand our own awareness.

[blockthebox]

Stereotypes CANNOT be fought. They are a natural function of higher-level cognition. They are a GOOD thing.

Dear Dialectic,

Stereotypes make people's lives easier. To be able to compartmentalize and make snap judgments about an individual based on physical characteristics is a function of laziness. What people, namely those who stereotype, view as higher-level cognition, is the unwillingness to dispense with assumptions because it's so much easier to assume whatever it is one is told to assume about another person.

Stereotypes are conveniently seen as an evolutionary coping mechanism for our ever-changing and complex world. I see it as a crock of shit.

As a fairly intelligent and (dare I say) UN-fugly Asian American woman, I rarely resort to putting people in neat little boxes. This, to me, is true higher-level cognition. Perhaps the only thing I assume about everyone is their innate stupidity. Unfortunately, I'm usually right. However, on rare occasion, the more complex layers of a person begin to unfold.

Rock on, Stealth MC. You are one funny motherfucker.

[Dialectic]

Whassup blockthebox,

Thank you for checkin' out this site; the more chicks, women, and womyn we get, the better for it we'll be.

Lemme try to clarify my position; I think that you, I and Fatfish are probably in almost complete agreement. Maybe it's just that we have differing ideas on just what a stereotype is. I'm gonna get my geek on and do some academic-type quoting:

"Stereotyping involves a form of categorization that organizes our experience and guides our behavior toward ethnic and national groups. Stereotypes never describe individual behavior; rather, they describe the behavioral norm for members of a particular group.

...

"Stereotypes, like other forms of categories, can be helpful or harmful depending on how we use them. Effective stereotyping allows people to understand and act appropriately in new situations. A stereotype becomes helpful when it is

"1) Consciously held. People should be aware that they are describing a group norm rather than the characteristics of a specific individual.

"2) Descriptive rather than evaluative. The stereotype should describe what people from this group will probably be like and not evaluate those people as good or bad.

"3) Accurate. The stereotype should accurately describe the norm for the group to which the person belongs.

"4) The first best guess about a group prior to having direct information about the specific persons or persons involved.

"5) Modified, based on further observation and experience with the actual people and situations" (Adler 75-76).

Check out International Dimensions of Organizational Behaviour, Third Edition, by Nancy J. Adler if you want to go more in-depth.

Problems arise when people inappropriately stereotype other folks rather than accurately seeing and assessing their personalities and attributes.

What you meant by "higher level cognition" was, well, higher than what I meant. I just meant the ability to recognize perceived patterns and form opinions and action-sets based on that recognition. This is something any normally-developed adult human being can do; I used "higher level" in comparison to infants and marmosets.

I agree that true "higher level cognition," relative to lower levels in human beings, would include the ability to TRANSCEND the common problems and pathologies of stereotyping WITHOUT discarding the useful tool of stereotyping itself.

Do you guys think Chinese folks like rice and noodles? That Americans are the fattest people on Earth? That the French like wine and really fucking smelly cheese? That Black people are poor? That Indian and Mediterranean women blow up after 30 or their first baby, whichever comes first?

Those are all stereotypes. And those are all true, in the general case. And of course there will be many, many exceptions. Just don't let a concept in your mind blind you to a reality in your face.

[KeJia Sista]

<snip>

Same thing with Blacks. With media coverage being what it is, coupled with their lower socio-economic status (and thus higher penchant to commit non-white collar crime), people are naturally going to be more wary around them. Even Bill Cosby made some very inflammatory comments about lower-income Blacks at an NAACP banquet (and was much funnier than I'm being here). But if you meet a Black dude who works hard at math, swims competitively, and writes poetry, then you must accept him as an individual and not continue to apply the conception of "Blacks" you have in your mind to him. If you meet enough people which contradict or deviate from the stereotype you have, then the stereotype must change.

A stereotype, then, is a convenient and necessary tool with which we may better navigate a complex world, because it is a recognition of perceived patterns. Like any tool, it can be misused. And of course it often is. This can be prevented with flexibility, an open-minded approach to existence, and a strong desire to continuously expand our own awareness.

I'm not so sure. I agree that a stereotype is a convienient and sometimes necessary tool BUT when a stereotype is created by the oppressor how valid is it at all?

Taking the Black crime for example; in NYC the statistics originate at the NYPD. It has recently been shown that police departments refuse to write up certain complaints; while tampering with others and this affects the higher crime count for Blacks than Whites. The media also selectively picks through the crimes of the day; and will publicize minority crimes though that same day Whites may have been arrested for something similar or worse. My husband works at a hospital in Brooklyn and often gets victims of White on White crime. There are push-in robberies; rapes; and in one instance an off-duty White retired policeman was beaten unconcious by four White teens who lived next door to him in an argument over trash. This story never made the news that night. Likewise, the Chinese press is full of Azn on Azn (and sometimes Azn on other minority) crime that also does not reach the non_Azn press even though it had to have been reported at the same preceinct.

A study showed that Black youth are arrested for crimes that White youth are simply reprimanded for; if it does make it to courth the charges are often dropped for Whites or they are given a probation.

I'm probably going way off track here; but I guess the point is are we going from stereotypes we have of each other based on personal contact or do we buy into stereotypes that are created by the oppressor?

KeJia

[cattygurl]

EVERYONE creates stereotypes. As much as I dislike how most people apply them, I am in total agreement with BTB and D. It's their mis-use that is problematic, not the fact that they exist. Stereotypes will exist as long as there are variance is human appearance and culture.

What you're talking about goes beyond stereotypes per say. Your post mentions what people will do to skew stereotypes to fit their world view/feed their agenda. They use stereotypes as a tool (again, a mis-use) to keep the power structure to suit them.

Stereotypes aren't in itself good/bad. It's basically a pattern of behavior that appears to be common for a certain group. It can be neutral, good or bad. It can be a GOOD thing and prevent your ass from getting kicked and prevent unneccesary animosity due to unintentional misunderstandings.

Stereotypes become an issue because people refuse to drop it when they see individual variances, and insist on applying this to a certain group of people regardless of validity.

Often, even the BAD stereotypes have some validity in it. The issue is that stereotypes are meant to simplify, and as such, cannot extrapolate or communicate more complex factors that lead to such negative stereotyping.

The bad sterotype of the criminal Black man... well, the fact points out that lots of black men are in jail. They do have a higher rate of incarceration than other races. The base issue is not the black man, but poverty, lack of education, and an unfair criminal justice system to name a few. Therefore, while the stereotype in itself isn't entirely false, it doesn't clearly explain the situation and blames the wrong factor (race) instead of the right one (poverty, etc).

[KeJia Sista]

The bad sterotype of the criminal Black man... well, the fact points out that lots of black men are in jail. They do have a higher rate of incarceration than other races. The base issue is not the black man, but poverty, lack of education, and an unfair criminal justice system to name a few. Therefore, while the stereotype in itself isn't entirely false, it doesn't clearly explain the situation and blames the wrong factor (race) instead of the right one (poverty, etc).

Guess I wasn't able to explain it clearly. Anyway, my main point is that counting crime from the point of incarceration is very deceptive.

It's like judging promiscuity by who gives birth. Anyway, it was just a side trip from this thread anyway.

So, granted this; what are we saying about the Asian male stereotype? If we want to accept there is truth in stereotypes and its cool until we find otherwise; how are most people going to find out otherwise? Or is that what the push for Azn porn is supposed to accomplish? Not clear here.

KeJia Sista

[KeJia Sista]

I heard tight Asian chicks live only to serve
And little yellow men lack sexual nerves
Now I know you know how ridiculous this sounds
But these pervasive images abound
In the collective unconscious, ready to spring
From a wayward glance, ready to sting
Deep down inside, where weíll never let you see
Because if we did you would never let us be!
We tryiní to break down stereotypes and barriers?
Fuck it, letís build ëem up into armoured troop carriers!
Heís a dope dealer, I run a counterfeit ring
Heís got mad rhythm, Iím a kung fu king
We are here to steal your coveted jobs
Here to corrupt your beloved daughters
Here to embarrass intellectual slobs
To scare the piss out imperial fathers
Everything you feared about me was true
Better ship me to Guantanamo before I get you

That was one of the pieces I'd prepped for a 45 second slam competition. Imagine an Eminem/Ludacris type voice with some Canibus/Nas raspiness thrown in. Or maybe I'm just deluding myself.

Now in this piece I'm obviously I'm being a little sarcastic. But I want to talk a little about stereotyping.

People fucking hate stereotypes. The word itself, the concept and its implications, get a very bad rep these days. Women, Blacks, blondes, Arabs, Asians, rednecks, they all hate stereotypes.

That attitude is wrong. Stereotypes CANNOT be fought. They are a natural function of higher-level cognition. They are a GOOD thing.

A stereotype is a recognition of a perceived pattern. We could not navigate the human sphere without it. If you meet an Arab, it's a good thing to know that you probably shouldn't shake hands with your left hand. When you meet a Chinese, it's a good thing to know that you should be a little more conscious about rules of propriety and face.

This applies to both "negative" and "positive" conceptions of races, genders, sexual preferences, political stances, etc. Both will form naturally in the mind. If Asians tend to be smaller people in general, then their sexual organs will tend to be smaller as well. And you're damn right I'm gonna be more careful what I say and do if I ever find myself in a Black ghetto.

Problems arise when stereotypes are misused. They appear to be evil conceptual constructs when they are applied by a closed mind. If I meet an Asian and automatically assume she's in engineering or accounting and is humble, shy, and unopinionated, that assumption is okay. Many are this way.

If I find out that she paints, studies Classical philosophy, debates, and works out, and I still treat her or think of her as docile, submissive, and just book/number smart, then I'm a fucking moron. If I notice that Asians, especially in North America, tend to grow taller and larger than they have traditionally been portrayed and I still think their dicks are small and their pussies are extra tight, I should be killed.

Same thing with Blacks. With media coverage being what it is, coupled with their lower socio-economic status (and thus higher penchant to commit non-white collar crime), people are naturally going to be more wary around them. Even Bill Cosby made some very inflammatory comments about lower-income Blacks at an NAACP banquet (and was much funnier than I'm being here). But if you meet a Black dude who works hard at math, swims competitively, and writes poetry, then you must accept him as an individual and not continue to apply the conception of "Blacks" you have in your mind to him. If you meet enough people which contradict or deviate from the stereotype you have, then the stereotype must change.

A stereotype, then, is a convenient and necessary tool with which we may better navigate a complex world, because it is a recognition of perceived patterns. Like any tool, it can be misused. And of course it often is. This can be prevented with flexibility, an open-minded approach to existence, and a strong desire to continuously expand our own awareness.

I think stereotyping and having a knowledge of cultural patterns are two different things.

KeJia

[Dialectic]

Stereotyping IS a recognition of perceived patterns, cultural or otherwise. They can either be "positive" (i.e. Asians are smart, Jews are hard-working) or "negative" (i.e. Blacks are crooks, Mexicans are lazy).

Then of course, you can put forth the argument that even "positive" stereotypes are very damaging and not positive at all (i.e. Model Minority discourse, anti-Semitic business practices). Now, however, you start running into a serious problem, as all generalizations can be judged as "negative" or damaging.

Why is this a problem? Well many (probably most) of you have come to equate "stereotype" with "negative (cultural) generalization" rather than just "generalization" in an attempt to differentiate "stereotyping" from "generalizing." But we have seen that all generalization (i.e. simplification) can have "negative" or damaging effects. All generalization is therefore still stereotyping, even by your definitions.

So either way, stereotyping is still generalization, i.e. the recognition of perceived patterns. The only issue we're really debating is whether generalization can have "positive" or "neutral" effects.

[cattygurl]

Cultural patterns are a form of stereotyping in anthropology. Human behavior are influenced by social conditioning, and as such, cultural pattern is a form of stereotyping.

I think you speak more of ethnocentrism, classism and xenophobia that plays into a power structure based on inequality. In your examples, misleading stereotypes are molded to fit these existing framework, rather than looked at as just a base of knowledge with the recognition of individual variances.

The knowledge/existence of stereotypical patterns isn't bad- it's the *assumption and application* of such information that can be harmful.