Narcissism in the Asian American Community
31 Responses | Leave a Comment »
A year ago, on a long drive, Dialectic and I were discussing the Asian American community, the goals of activist work, and narcissism. That got me thinking: What do we really want? What are we talking about when we talk about activism? Are our desires too focused on measuring up to a “white” standard? And, at this juncture, is the Asian American community acting in a narcissistic fashion?
The way I see it, we don’t know exactly what we want as a group because it is impossible for us have one unified desire, save for respect from our peers, neighbours, and fellow citizens. This is because we are individuals, from different cultural and class backgrounds. We have different ideas about identity, culture, and politics. No single person in our community can speak for every person, and it is damaging when people try to do so.
I admit, I am wary of anything that has the tag “activism” attached to it, because it has become so ill-defined and muddy a concept that it has become another symptom of the narcissism that has taken hold of American society. When we have food, clothing, shelter, good educations, and excellent jobs, for what are we fighting? We should not pretend that our cause is similar to that of dissidents around the world, who are fighting for basic needs. This is not to say that we should not stand up for our beliefs–but we need to examine our beliefs and actions. We need to be self aware. We need to determine whether we are acting out of self interest, and not to claim that our self interest is altruistic. There is nothing wrong with self interest; it is human. But we have to stop acting like the world owes us something, and that our self interest is somehow moral or compassionate simply because our skin is yellow or brown.
I also think there is a pathology in our community, which runs deep. Too many of us want to gain recognition within the structures set up in American and western society, and we use the tools, teachings, politics, and philosophies of the West to try to achieve these goals at the expense of the myriad identities and viewpoints that comprise our community.
This pathology is most obvious when it comes to our perceptions of sexual identity and relationships, as evidenced by the unending debates about IR, CCBs, and PUAs on this very forum. We have trouble seeing each other, because some of us can hardly see ourselves.
In our privileged state, I believe we have a responsibility to think of others, rather than ourselves, when we have so much for which to be thankful. I also think that we’re adult enough to understand that criticisms are not attacks, and that only people who care enough about us and the community are willing to offer critiques and advice.
We are capable of knowing ourselves. We are capable of knowing one another. It is time to ask ourselves what we really want, and how our desires affect our community.
Leave a Comment »
Share
Entries (RSS)
evil_FUX
2:13 am | Dec 01, 2008I agree with your sentiments nightshade. With shit like that I bet it’s easy to lose sight of the picture. Also, nice job in pointing out again (since D did it once before) that the majority of substantive rights are already in existence for all of us. The real battle to me is much, much larger and such a different beast to tackle than what came before that anything we do right now probably isn’t enough.
BadArtist
6:56 pm | Dec 01, 2008IMHO, the Asian American community seems to suffer from collective self-esteem issues and a lot of this have to do with us trying to measure up to white standards (of which the media plays a big part). Even for a lot of AA activists who fight against stereotypes, they seem to have internalized some of it themselves. I find it sad when I see some Asian Americans attacking their fellow brothers and sisters for not breaking these stereotypes. Worse yet, some AA would express embarrassment when they (or someone they know) happen to fit into one of these stereotypes even if they excel at it (like being a doctor, doing well at school, playing the piano, etc.). Why should we be ashamed of our accomplishments? We’re gotten so paranoid that we take every slight and blow it out of context. We have to celebrate every study or survey that happens to contradict a stereotype even though we already KNOW those stereotypes aren’t true. Being an AA male, I can only talk of male issues, but as an example, why must we feel the need to high-five each other when we see some AA man and a white woman together? Being tall is no longer just about being taller than the folks around you, but we now have to be as tall as white men. It’s no longer enough to find love, but now we must also have as much sex as some white “playas”. Sports are no longer about athleticism, but instead we must show white folks that Asians can play ball, too. And so on and so forth. It just seems like some of us are no longer doing things just to be happy, but because we constantly trying to prove to the world how we’re not just some stupid stereotype.
Dialectic
12:16 am | Dec 02, 2008Thanks for this thoughtful post, ns. I agree with your premises; with regard to the pathology, what exactly are you saying it is? The desire to assimilate/ conform to “white” standards, and therefore damage our own self-esteem and cultural identity?
e_F, what’s the nature and scope of the “real battle” you’re talking about?
nightshade
1:03 am | Dec 02, 2008Thanks, dudes.
Yeah, D, the pathology I’m referring to has to do with assimilating and conforming to “white” standards, though I don’t think that it’s the conforming in itself that is bad–we do what makes sense for the country in which we live.
For instance, enjoying “white” things (media, TV, movies), and following “white” rules are not harmful in themselves. We can have a curiosity for all things in our world, and be polite according to the customs of a country, and still be proud of who we are, and to know and love ourselves and one another.
It’s the lack of self awareness about the desire to assimilate and conform, in my opinion, that leads to damage.
evil_FUX
1:54 am | Dec 02, 2008Hmm, well I only have a rough idea of how things play out D, but it coincides with issues that you have brought up, in a feature I believe. The first of it being that most of the, I think you use constructive(?), rights have already been established with the Civil Rights movement, and the second that coincides with that is that anything else that’s being fought against is relates to things which I believe you phrased something akin to institutional.
By all means correct me if I’m wrong. Those sentiments I agree with and so, to me, if we’re talking about something that’s largely systemic then 1)there’s only so much that can be done to minimize the influence of say cliche asian male stereotypes and 2)relating back to the two issues above, it’s probably a different beast in addressing why people in this day and age should care.
I’m not knocking any ‘traditional’ methods of spreading the word, but it seems like it takes more than that. In my mind it’s either you start fresh or do what you said back in the old days of this board and work towards putting positive influences out there instead of griping and carping over shit all the time.
THX1138
8:05 am | Dec 03, 2008“That got me thinking: What do we really want? What are we talking about when we talk about activism? Are our desires too focused on measuring up to a “white” standard? And, at this juncture, is the Asian American community acting in a narcissistic fashion?
The way I see it, we don’t know exactly what we want as a group because it is impossible for us have one unified desire, save for respect from our peers, neighbours, and fellow citizens. This is because we are individuals, from different cultural and class backgrounds. We have different ideas about identity, culture, and politics. No single person in our community can speak for every person, and it is damaging when people try to do so.”
I was talking about this general issue with Jaehwan a while back, and basically, you could say that there is a struggle for the soul of Asian America.
There are many different visions and perspectives of “what we want,” often in contention with each other. The dominant one is probably assimilationism, which is usually promoted by Asian American elites for reasons of status, power, and social climbing. This trend, to be frank, upholds Honorary Whiteness as a desired goal for Asian Americans.
Then, there are various oppositional visions, which reject this assimilationist perspective and are based upon fighting for some kind of distinct Asian American social identity, however defined.
Personally, I favor the latter. Mainstream White society may have power and money on its side, but they sure as hell don’t have justice.
“I also think there is a pathology in our community, which runs deep. Too many of us want to gain recognition within the structures set up in American and western society, and we use the tools, teachings, politics, and philosophies of the West to try to achieve these goals at the expense of the myriad identities and viewpoints that comprise our community.”
This pathology is most obvious when it comes to our perceptions of sexual identity and relationships, as evidenced by the unending debates about IR, CCBs, and PUAs on this very forum. We have trouble seeing each other, because some of us can hardly see ourselves.”
Speaking of unending debates about IR and related issues, this video message below is pretty interesting. I think this is the type of conversation that needs to be happening between Asian American men and women to a much greater degree. It’s actually kind of refreshing.
http://antisocial-ladder.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-video-message-to-asian-american-men.html
BadArtist
2:04 pm | Dec 03, 2008THX1138,
Personally, I’m not even shooting for some pan-Asian American identity. It may sound pessimistic, but we may have too much distinct cultural differences to be able to come together as a single community (at least anytime soon). I believe the best start is to just get Asian American men and women to recognize White Privilege, what it is and how it influences their perceptions and decisions. That way, you can at least get them to stop and think about the choices they make and the goals they pursue. Otherwise, any attempts to question any of their decisions will simply be drowned out by their knee-jerk reactions to defend their rights. This comes up every time the IR issue is brought up: it just runs into this brick wall of “It’s my right to chose, you’re trying to take that away!” End of discussion. I know that sometimes these decisions hurt us, but we just gotta suck it up because that person will never change his/her mind no matter what. We gotta move on to someone more open-minded to questioning their own decisions. And we have to approach them in ways that does not seem like we’re trying to run their lives. Just a bit more awareness is what I’m looking for right now. I’d rather have Asian Americans stand divided (as Chinese Americans, Vietnamese Americans, Japanese Americans, etc.)but as individuals than together as some honorary white community.
nightshade
4:20 pm | Dec 03, 2008Man, that video, thx. Eleven minutes of my life I’ll never get back.
evil_FUX
4:43 pm | Dec 03, 2008Seriously, is being rich and shit necessarily tied with assimilation and for that matter “Honorary Whiteness” ?
BadArtist
5:29 pm | Dec 03, 2008^evil_FUX, I’m not sure if you’re directing that question to me. I’ll just assume you are. I was alluding to stuff like pursuing white standards of beauty and sexual attraction, being too readily accepting of the model minority status, promoting western oriental views while ceaselessly attacking your own culture (self-hating and selling out).
evil_FUX
3:12 am | Dec 04, 2008Thanks for a response BadArtist, but I was addressing THX1138
THX1138
5:58 am | Dec 04, 2008Seriously, is being rich and shit necessarily tied with assimilation and for that matter “Honorary Whiteness”?
For Asian Americans, there’s a strong tendency in this direction. Historically, race and class have been fundamentally connected in the USA. America has always had a racial caste system of one kind or another. Today, it may be more sophisticated and disguised, but it’s there.
nightshade
1:46 am | Dec 05, 2008THX, it seems to me that you associate wealth with whiteness, whereas many of us associate wealth with wealth. There’s no pretense–we’d like not to be poor.
tokyolovestory
2:37 am | Dec 05, 2008I think the conversation is beginning to stray, once again, toward measuring Asians/Asian-Americans by the white-stick. We may be able to agree that the truly wealthy in this country are generally white. We may also be able to agree that many Asians/Asian-Americans would like to be truly wealthy. This does not, however, mean that they want to be white, and if that’s what you say, that’s where our agreement ends.
Obviously trying to contort our identities to fit white standards is ridiculous. But it is equally ridiculous to limit and contort ourselves otherwise to try to never ever do anything white people do. We will deprive ourselves of many things that we desire that have nothing to do with any urge to be white.
I believe this was nightshade’s original point, which BadArtist has also pointed out:
Not everything we do has to be compared to what white people do. Not everything we are has to be measured against whites, and rejected if it is “too close.” Seriously. Some of us are just not that concerned with white people. We do not feel the need to compare everything we do, say, feel, eat, think, write, read, watch, or are with whites.
THX1138
9:09 pm | Dec 06, 2008Hello Tokyo. I understand your and Nightshade’s point about not “contorting” Asian American identities either to White standards or, alternately, as a categorical rejection of all “White” culture. I don’t disagree with this argument.
My point was that there competing visions for the direction of Asian America. The assimilationist trend is probably dominant, though there are opposing visions. And this trend is dominant in part because some Asian American elites often support it–and not coincidentally promote their own class interests as a result.
Class interests include not just wealth but also privilege, status, and socio-economic position. And race is one important factor–thought not the only one–in who achieves class advancement, including wealth, in the first place. Race and class go hand in glove.
The links below give a decent explanation of this relationship between class and race. The first is Tim Wise talking about how and why Whiteness itself was historically spawned as a system and social identity. The last 2 are Noel Ignatiev explaining how this system continues to operate today.
http://www.redroom.com/video/tim-wise-creation-whiteness-clip
http://racetraitor.org/
http://racetraitor.org/abolishthepoint.html
DONKEY
6:33 pm | Dec 12, 2008people just want to be equals wherever they live, in every way possible. there’s nothing wrong with that. there would be something wrong if they didn’t want that.
some get confused along the way about how to achieve that, myself included.
if asian americans achieve high standards of living and then still demand more because they don’t yet feel like equals, is that wrong? no.
could it be labeled as narcissistic whining about first-world problems? absolutely. but almost any complaint can be reduced to that, cuz afterall there is always somebody else in the world who’s got it worse.
nightshade
5:23 pm | Dec 16, 2008I’m not saying that we’re not permitted to complain or seek ways to change what is around us–there is a lot that is wrong that requires us to step in and look out for our own interests. We have the right to demand just and fair treatment.
But it’s narcissistic to believe that defending our personal interests is somehow a noble thing, as if it’s a selfless action instead of a self-interested action. That’s all I’m saying. There is nothing wrong with self interest. We just need to be mindful of that fact, and proceed with a whole lot of self awareness.
aznbro
7:52 pm | Dec 16, 2008Ahh, now I think I getcha. I plead, arm-twist, bitch, whine and complain only for myself and others in the same-boat as myself. I’ve never had the notion that what I was doing is for some noble cause. Does that mean that I’m not being narcisstic then :)
BadArtist
9:07 pm | Dec 16, 2008^Nah, you’re still being selfish, but at least you’re being honest with it, and I think that’s what Nightshade’s getting at.
HurricaneSteve
5:50 pm | Dec 24, 2008If you want to get down to it, our very existence is narcissistic. Breathing, eating, sleeping, you name it and it is a self serving interest. With that in mind, there are many self serving interests that not only influence change but usher in progress. Let’s look at athletics for example, while Jackie Robinson was a pioneer, if he didn’t have a desire to be the best ball player he could be, none of his accomplishments would have happened. Of course deep down he knew that if he was the first black player to make it to the big leagues, it would send shockwaves throughout the country.
Another thing we have to define is what exactly the AA community is. Just because you are Asian or Asian-American does not mean any of these AA issues apply to you. In fact from what I have seen, much of what is discussed on this site is mostly isolated incidents that are related to the individual, not because of their ethnicity. So the way I see it, there is nothing wrong with being narcissistic because that is human nature and there have been many positive effects from narcissism. The very same country that slaughtered millions of Native Americans is the very same country that rescued most of Asia from Japan’s tyranny.
nightshade
8:56 pm | Dec 26, 2008So, HurricaneSteve, are you saying that breathing and eating are acts of activism that usher in progress?
HurricaneSteve
9:28 pm | Dec 26, 2008It’s hard to accomplish very much unless those two activities are included in one’s every day routine, no?
aznbro
9:29 pm | Dec 26, 2008Oh c’mon nightshade. If I made a crack like that to you, I’d be gang-tackled so viciously I wouldn’t be able to post for a month!
HurricaneSteve
9:30 pm | Dec 26, 2008Either way what kind of self interest acts are people engaging in that they are considering noble?
nightshade
9:35 pm | Dec 26, 2008How do those two things relate to having self awareness when it comes to our desires and goals for Asian American life? When we have the basics covered, like I said in the original post, it’s important to know what we want, and to examine whether what we want is damaging to our community. For instance, there is never going to be a proper movement that accomplishes very much if we spend all day wondering how we can make white people love us.
nightshade
9:37 pm | Dec 26, 2008If you want that, we can do it for you. Call it a belated Christmas present. Let me round up a couple of bitches and we’ll make you cry, free of charge.
nightshade
9:52 pm | Dec 26, 2008To put it at the most base and crude level, for example: getting pussy or dick isn’t activism. This goes for the Asian American women who think their interracial relationships make the world a better and more equal place, as well as for the Asian American men who think that banging a blonde chick elevates the status and well being of Asian Americans everywhere.
For instance, it’s kind of laughable to equate getting white people to fuck us with a group like the Black Panthers. Throwing around the word “activism” for various activities related to our own personal interests and pleasures kind of devalues it, don’t you think? We have the right to seek out and pursue whatever we wish to pursue–but all I am saying is that we shouldn’t think of every single thing we do as activist work. We’re back to this: dude, sleeping and eating is not activism.
aznbro
3:46 am | Dec 27, 2008Haha. Down boy, DOWN!
So what is in your “basics” list that you’ve got covered anyways? Seeing that so many AA sites are sausage-fests, I don’t think everyone is so lucky.
nightshade
2:51 am | Dec 29, 2008By basics I meant having food, shelter, clothing, etc.
I wish by basics I meant healthy self image and self esteem–but unfortunately, that doesn’t necessarily happen even when we bountiful resources and amazing privileges.
missjosephine
7:24 pm | Jan 16, 2009i’m reading this way later than everybody else, so i’m not caught up on all of the comments. i just wanted to say thank you, nightshade, for a great article. it’s nice to be able to stop and reflect on what it means to be for anything, or fight for anything, especially when it can become so easy in the ‘fighting for’ stage to either lose sight of the original spirit of what you’re trying to attain, or to subvert or tarnish it through the way we are trying to achieve it. anyway, i enjoyed this post.
pleiotroph
1:49 pm | Jan 17, 2009Economic comfort among many (but definitely not all) asian americans has lulled us, collectively into a complacent, second-place in society. Economic comfort however has not brought social/community success. And perhaps, assertively pushing identity politics or fighting for self-respect as an asian, probably seems to be avoided because it feels to be a threat to our complacent economically comfortable place in society. –ie: Being marked a “radical” and talking about racism might hurt one’s career.
IMO, the lasting undercurrent of American citizenship as an Asian, has been one of “white acceptance”, not just measuring up to a “white standard”.
It’s still about being recognized as a “genuine” “non-conditional” American person, — as opposed to being stereotyped by the national media as the “Other”, and often as the “Antagonist”, “Competitor” or “Enemy”.
If we are not accepted non-conditionally, as individuals — not as stereotypes, then there are many subtle hinderances deterring self-actualization, and political/social empowerment.
If assertiveness & visibily protesting against negative asian stereotypes is too much to stomach, there is perhaps another, more effective way: parody, satire, and mockery of asian stereotypes. Witticism may be a sharper weapon than radicalism, but it is intellectually & creatively more difficult.