MMA in High School
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(Another version posted here.)
So basically, there was an article yesterday about a guy named In-Goo Kwak (not our 44s Kwak) who started a Mixed Martial Arts Club at his high school where he is a senior. He’s passionate about the martial arts, and he lobbied for two years before administrators would let him have this club. He finally made it a reality when they saw he was serious and professional.
My question is this: Are high schoolers too young to have an MMA club? Kids in high school fight all the time, and I wonder if it’s wise to give them tools to hurt one another. The counterargument would be that high schools have always had other martial arts like wrestling…and hockey. Also, they don’t let the kids hit each other.
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kimtae
9:16 pm | Nov 19, 2008There’s always a bad seed (Cobra Kai!!!) but for the most part, kids in MA tend to fight a lot less than other kids. MMA would probably be about the same. On the other hand, footballers, well, maybe they should ban that instead.
jaehwan
11:00 pm | Nov 19, 2008Cobra Kai!!!
I didn’t think too much of that movie when it came out, but these days, I watch it whenever it comes on AMC. It’s one of Chuck Lidell’s favorite movies too. (A while ago, I posted my own personal impressions here). Part 1 was really good, and I think it communicates pretty well the spirit of martial arts.
You’re probably right about the fighting thing. I don’t know that many wrestlers, for example, who spent high school fighting so much, so perhaps they’ll actually fight less if they take these classes.
kimtae
12:36 am | Nov 20, 2008One of the things about being a high school wrestler is that everyone fears you and you’re on the team with all the other scary guys so few people will even try you.
tokyolovestory
1:25 am | Nov 20, 2008I’m of two minds about this. On the one hand, my father was one of those kids who got in fights all the time throughout middle school and high school. People skirted around him in the hallways because he had a hair-trigger temper and solid fists. He was a judo champion in high school. But he kept it to minor scuffles (and after a while people were just scared of him), and once he was an adult, he was (to a degree) more controlled. So part of me says fighting at a certain age could be fairly normal and can get out of your system.
On the other hand, five guys I went to high school with (three of whom I graduated with) were arrested in the beating death of another graduate. The ones I knew personally were football players, and liked to fight. The trial for one of them (who was the only one charged with murder) just finished and he was convicted of second degree murder, among other things. And I don’t think teaching MMA to him or others like him would have been a good idea; and the idea of martial arts teaching restraint and (a form of) “morals” is nice, but probably not true, with people like that.
jaehwan
3:45 am | Nov 20, 2008I turned on Bloodsport the other day–didn’t watch it because it’s white racist propaganda–but if I remember the plot correctly, the white guy is a former bully who finds self-actualization when the Japanese teacher takes him under his wing and reveals the secrets of karate. The white guy stops becoming a bully and devotes his life to the way (while busting the heads of a bunch of yellow and brown folk to make the Hollywood allegory complete).
I have a question: Does anyone actually know anyone else who was a former bully and whose life was transformed for the better through karate or martial arts? I’ve never actually heard of it happening in real life. Maybe there ought to be certain personality types who are excluded from high school MMA.
Smile
1:03 am | Nov 21, 2008I personally think it is a fantastic idea. Mixed martial arts, like any other sport is a very competitive field. Only by participating in the sport does one learn to respect others as a result of realizing that there will always be someone else better than you.
In terms of effects toward the community, by exposing kids to the sport at a younger age creates open minds for the next generation, demystifies the mythological status of traditional martial arts and thus creates a healthier, more constructive environment for learning unarmed combat.
Furthermore, by demonstrating that mixed martial arts can be implemented on a highschool campus with the appropriate safety precautions, the lay public and the more conservative part of the community can learn to treat MMA itself as the sport it is, not the overblown glorfication of violence the media makes it out to be.
In response to bullying and martial arts, it is a two way argument. MMA is a scientific and ring proven combat tool that stacks the odds of the fight toward a skilled, smaller person against a non-skilled, bigger person. By providing an environment for less physically endowed kids to learn to protect themselves against the more physically developed jocks or bullies could be a constructive and postive influence.
DijabutiA
5:46 pm | Nov 21, 2008Meh, if kids are getting there energy out in a ring then I don’t how fighting is going to spill over into regular life.
Second, anyone doing this is going to get a reputation and very few people are going to mess with them.
Third, if someone want’s to start some shit well then guess what, you can go in the ring and sort it out and be done with it.
nskripchun
10:28 am | Nov 22, 2008Forget high school… I know some kids in elementary school who need it! :)
jaehwan
12:10 pm | Nov 22, 2008Yes, while I don’t know anyone whom the martial arts has transformed from bully to non-bully, I don’t think I know anyone either who transformed from bully to even bigger bully. It may be my lack of experience though. I’ve seen some really bad martial arts schools and can’t imagine the students are doing well with their personal lives.
Did you all see this (from Angry Asian Man)? It’s this kind of thing that I worry about, but then again, this gang wasn’t trained in MMA either.
BadArtist
5:09 pm | Nov 23, 2008You know, it’s really not too difficult to link acts-of-aggression to aggression. Really, the whole self-defense, mental-discipline, inner-harmony excuse that’s often linked to martial arts usually gets tossed out the window the second somebody throws a punch. Most people sign up for these classes with one mission in mind: to kick ass. And if you tell me that learning how to destroy things (and people) is somehow therapeutic for aggressive behavior, I’d just laugh. I have an acquaintance who thought it’s such a great idea to sign up his 8-year-olds for karate (so they can “defend” themselves on the playground, as he claimed). When I step into his house, the first thing that happens is I get pounced by a pair of little monsters, kicking and punching and eager to show off their new moves while their dad looks on proudly. I just shudder at the thought of the type of teenagers they’ll turn into. But I do not deny that yes, these skills can prove useful for personal-defense (just as much as they’ll prove useful for personal OFFENSE). I just view these classes like gun ownership. It’s better to have them so decent people can have the options of defending themselves at the cost of enabling more thugs (since there will always be thugs in this world).
nightshade
3:12 am | Nov 24, 2008I think that’s what tokyolovestory is referring to in post #4. Also, they weren’t a gang–they were a group of dumbass drunk boys.
jaehwan
11:13 am | Nov 24, 2008Yes, I agree with Tokyo.
I’d disagree strongly about the gang definition though; I think they are a gang. Read this one. Group beatings, hand signs, terrorizing people. They may do it a different way in rich neighborhoods, but it all seems similar to me–a bunch of guys getting together with the purpose of getting violent.
In any case, now that we’re bringing up the gang thing, does anyone know of a gang that studies MMA or martial arts together? I have seen the kind of violence (not just 8 year olds) that BadArtist describes, but I’ve never seen it as a coordinated thing.
jaehwan
11:40 am | Nov 24, 2008Correction: Never seen it as a coordinated thing–except for Cobra Kai…!
BadArtist
1:43 pm | Nov 24, 2008Yeah, of course it’s not just 8 year olds. My point is, kids aren’t known for making smart decisions. And we’re talking about teenagers, with their confusion and anger and all that fun stuff that comes with puberty and some genius thinks it’s a good idea to teach them how to fight? This is like some genius who thinks it’s a great idea to put criminals in the army and give them the skills to fight and use guns and explosives. I remember getting jumped in high school (and I think a lot of people have that fun experience), and I got away with just a few bruises and minor cuts thanks to the fact that none of those guys were taking Taekwondo or some shit.
nightshade
4:48 pm | Nov 24, 2008That’s not the point–you asked if anyone had seen the post at Angry Asian Man, and I’m pointing out that she mentioned that she went to high school with those guys and knew them personally.
Legally, they were not considered a gang. I’m thinking that this kind of retardation and violence happens a lot among young men who drink and hang out and go out. And in this case, it ended in tragedy.
jaehwan
5:49 pm | Nov 24, 2008Shades, thanks for clarifying.
BadArtist:
What do you think about the idea that wrestlers usually don’t get into many fights? (Do you even agree with the premise?) Wrestling is one of the most common “martial arts” within the UFC. Is the key difference that wrestlers don’t hit?
BadArtist
7:27 pm | Nov 24, 2008^You know what, I have no idea. It could be that I’m just wrong, and martial arts won’t turn teenagers into Cobra Kai clones. Or it could just mean that wrestlers don’t get into many fights because, like you said, they don’t hit and it’s a different kind of sport.
kimtae
9:18 pm | Nov 24, 2008Bad Artist, you don’t know nuch about martial arts, it’s obvious. Teaching TMA (traditional martial arts) or MMA for that matter first and foremost relies on respect. You have to respect your instructors which in turn helps children to see authority as something not to be challenged without good reason. Kids learn respect for their peers as they have to rely on each other to train. They also gain a lot of focus and self-confidence as they get better and better. This leads to more goal oriented and disciplined teens. Inner city boxing programs have long depended on these qualities to help otherwise at-risk children. Yes, there are the exceptions but for the most part, TMA nad now MMA have the potential to do far more good. Certainly more than high school football programs which often do little more for the athletes than teach them raw aggression without any controls.
BadArtist
12:20 am | Nov 25, 2008^Hey, if that’s the truth, then I stand corrected. Anything that helps these kids learn confidence while teaching them to stay out of trouble is a good thing. I hope these MMA classes achieve the same results as those inner city boxing programs.
jaehwan
12:15 pm | Nov 25, 2008I was going to say that judo was actually conceived as a form of education rather than a form of fighting. It was designed to teach you about yourself and your opponent.
I think it would depend also on the MMA teacher. They were cocky back in the days of Tank Abbott, but I think both the sport and the art have matured since then.
kimtae
9:07 pm | Nov 25, 2008In the days of Tank Abbott there were no MMA teachers. Abbott himself was a self-described “Pit fighter”, just a tough guy with a huge right.
Anyone else think the instructor in the picture looks a bit like Asef Manvi from the the Daily Show?
jaehwan
2:16 pm | Nov 26, 2008I think the Gracies were the MMA instructors back then. Or at least they thought they were. Remember when Royce had that little push kick that he was using? Haha…that cracked me up! He used to use that push kick just to avoid strikes–that was his standup game. That’s the way they all fought. No one would be doing that these days since Muay Thai entered the scene.
By the way, I knew this professional Muay Thai instructor around that time who said that his Muay Thai friend got rejected from the original UFC when it was under Gracie management. He was saying, “Their opponents are hand picked!”
I’ve gotta say–and this is only tangentially related to the topic–I think Dana White has done a really good job in promoting this sport. It’s a lot more exciting than it used to be, and the athletes are so much better.
kimtae
8:57 pm | Nov 26, 2008Yeah, the early days of the UFC were meant to be a grapplers’ showcase. They even had Kimo come out as TKD guy when clearly he wasn’t. He may have had a little from his trainer but Kimo was primarily a jiujitsu guy. The stand up fighters they had were pathetic with the exception of Keith Hackney. Even Abbott was just a lucky punch guy; it works or it doesn’t and when it didn’t he got his clock cleaned.
I don’t think the Gracies have ever claimed to be MMA instructors though and Royce’s push kick would get him knocked out today if he tried that against guys like Thiago Alves. Still, it was a beginning and I’m so glad it survived, though just barely at one point.
jaehwan
3:09 am | Nov 27, 2008I said the exact same thing when I saw Kimo fight. TKD? I don’t think so!
I’m really glad it survived too. You know, it put the whole martial arts thing into perspective. Actually, I think it improved the standing of traditional martial arts, as people could see the roots of the MMA training.
It’s amazing how far the sport has come. I think it’ll just continue to get better. Honestly, it’s pushed the excitement level so high that I have trouble watching boxing these days.
kimtae
8:25 pm | Nov 27, 2008Joe Rogan, whom I consider to be remarkably astute as a color commentator, has said many times that a truly complete stand up fighter has yet to emerge and that is the part of MMA that needs the most development (though I’d argue Cung Le is pretty damn close). I can’t wait to see where we are twenty years from now.
And that guy in the pic definitely looks like Asef Manvi.
jaehwan
10:01 pm | Nov 27, 2008I think it’s a pay scale thing too. Boxers, for example, are tough people and great strikers, but there’s no way you can pay a guy like Pacquiao to get in the ring. He makes like 40 times the highest paid MMA star.
kimtae
12:04 am | Nov 28, 2008I think Rogan was talking about really great kickers, guys who have a full arsenal. The sidekick is extrememly underutilized and the Muay Thai roundhouse kick is overutilized. If Dana White ever stops playing his games he might give Machida a shot at the LHW title. Machida would give a larger profile to guys with Karate and Tae Kwon Do backgrounds and help get more of them into MMA.
jaehwan
11:14 am | Nov 28, 2008It would be great to see Machida get a shot at the LHW title. After all, he is undefeated.
I agree about the karate/taekwondo thing: I enjoy watching Machida just because his style is different. It gets tiring to see the same old roundhouse kicks over and over.
Remember the early UFC’s? I think there were a number of really good sidekicks during the early days. I haven’t seen any sidekicks recently, not even attempts.
MadeInTaiwan
3:58 pm | Dec 23, 2008I don’t think that MMA is too violent in High school, and kids are not too young to be practicing Mixed Martial Arts. The initiative training alone will act as placement to see where certain kids are in terms of skill level and potential. I have a friend named Mike, and he has been in the MMA industry throughout his senior year. I had another friend in High School named Hector who signed up for UFC during his sophomore year because of his boxing/wrestling background. Just because wrestling is safer than MMA, doesn’t mean that kids won’t go off on their own to learn MMA somewhere else. Therefore, as long as the MMA club has proper coaches and routines, MMA is definitely as safe as Hockey, Wrestling, etc. President of the UFC, Dana White stated that in the history that the UFC has been around, there has never been any deaths or serious injuries, and not even a sport such as Lacrosse can say that.
jaehwan
4:54 pm | Dec 23, 2008MIT, coincidence that you just posted on this! I just posted on (almost) the same topic on my own site just a few minutes ago. See here: http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/12/mma-and-really-young-kids/. The video is a bit slow to load, but…man, it’s disturbing.
MadeInTaiwan
10:06 pm | Dec 23, 2008O wow. These kids in the video are WAY younger than high school kids. You were right in that article,
“Little kids don’t have adequate self-control to use dangerous techniques responsibly”
Self control is definitely a quality that is beyond the grasp of most children younger than high-school level. My Sifu would always emphasize on self-control in order to help us learn the core principal of Martial Arts. I would expect high-school coaches to be as prominent about self control as my Sifu. Little kids, primarily, run on support. I am worried about little kids such as those being supported to lear wind-pipe chokes, armbars, and leg locks. If there’s anything close to serious injuries in the UFC, those are some of the causes. Watching those kids strike at each other is nerve-wracking as well. I still hold to my opinion that High-School students are not too young to learn MMA, but anywhere below that is/can be very dangerous.
jaehwan
2:39 pm | Dec 24, 2008Yes, there’s a world of difference between high school “kids” and really young kids.
Thinking about wrestlers, I agree that it’s pretty safe for high school kids to learn MMA, as long as the sensei has the right attitude. Teaching it to young kids is just irresponsible. It’ll result in dangerous fights, and even within the classes, it’s not safe on the joints or brains (from chokes) of young children.
I’m actually thinking of sending a letter to John McCain, who was quite active in regulating the UFC. But as I mentioned on my own blog, it’s hard to legislate against stupidity.
MadeInTaiwan
11:32 pm | Dec 24, 2008I agree. The wrestling coaches that I trained with just stopped trying to teach self-control by my senior year, because it’s easy to learn it by just looking at how everyone is around you. Little kids can’t learn like that, hence the world of difference between them and high school.
I never knew John McCain was an active regulator of the UFC. That makes me a little nervous also. Speaking of stupidity, think of all the letters Bush received versus the letters that had effect. 0_0